A new lesson learned about water quenched boolits !!

[Ohio Rusty]

About a week or a week and a half ago, I made up some of my first ever water quenched .44's. After they cooled, I took a few upstairs and ran them thru the sizer and put gas checks on them. They ran thru fairly easily so I left the rest of the bag set until I had more time. Last night, having free time, I decided to run them thru the sizer and put gas checks on them. Holy Moly did they harden up in that week and a half !!!! I'm using a Lee loader with the .430 sizer, and it took both hands to push the boolits up thru the sizer. I believe the hard part now is getting the gas check to squeeze onto the hardened base of the boolit. I got about 35 done and the pressure of pushing down on the ram arm ripped out one of the screws holding the back of the base from the loading table !! Now I have to put in a longer screw and tighten down the Lee Loader so I can finish.

So I've learned a valuable lesson ...... If you are making water quenched boolits. Size them right after you cast them and don't wait a week !! Also .... don't make more than you can size and seat gas checks on in one setting.

Ohio Rusty ><>

[myg30]

Valuable lesson in deed. I cast my 44's from 50-50 pb,ww. I don't push em max. Shootin in pistol. I would think since your gas checkin them you don't need em that hard ?
What ya shooting them in ? Have fun and enjoy. This is a fun hobby !

Mike

[Ohio Rusty]

The will be shot in a Ruger Redhawk my Nephew just recenly purchased. Young'uns like all that boom and recoil ...... They are straight WW's with tin and antimony. I have a new .44 mold coming from another list member that doesn't require gas checks ......

Ohio Rusty ><>

[runfiverun]

try putting a little lube on them before sizing.

[RobS]

You could also size those air cooled through your Lee push through die and then come back to heat treat them in an oven to achieve whatever BHN you want. Another approach, I often times water quench WW boolits and then once age hardened anneal them back down to whatever BHN I want such as 15. It is as easy as adjusting the oven to certain temperature settings to achieve the boolit hardness you want.

[RobS]

try putting a little lube on them before sizing.

This helps quite a bit. Run a lubed boolit through the push through sizing die every 10 or so.

[Ohio Rusty]

I forgot to mention I'm lubing each of them before the go into the sizing die. I'm using CVA Slick Lube (Like T/C's bore butter) to finger lube the bullets.
Ohio Rusty ><>

[GaryN]

Put them in the oven and anneal them back to air cooled then size them. Then if you want them hard put them back in the oven and then drop them in a bucket of cold water.

[1Shirt]

I water quench most all that I cast, and try to check/size/lube the same day. The only exception is when the boolits are very close to the size I want, or just need lubing as cast.
1Shirt!

[fecmech]

Put the boolits that you won't be sizing that day in the freezer. That brings the hardening process almost to a standstill. I tried that a few years ago and found even after 5-6 days the bullets sized just like the day they were cast and water dropped.

[wlc]

Put the boolits that you won't be sizing that day in the freezer. That brings the hardening process almost to a standstill. I tried that a few years ago and found even after 5-6 days the bullets sized just like the day they were cast and water dropped.

Will they go ahead and harden after you take them out of the freezer???

[Defcon-One]

Unlike steel and brass, which work harden, Lead Alloys work soften. If you size cast bullets after hardening them, then you are softening the very area of the bullet that you want to be hard.

The correct way to heat treat bullets is to cast them, size them with no lube, then heat treat them using the oven method with a cold water quench. Then you dry them and lube them through the same die that you used to size them initially. If they require gas checks, you ad them at the second sizing/lube stage.

If you don't do it this way, then you don't get the full benefit from the heat treating. That is why I never will water drop or heat treat my bullets. It is too much work to do it right and I never saw much benefit in heat treating over just making and using an alloy that meets my needs right out of the mold. With the proper alloy you just cast, size and load.

The truth hurts, but this is the real science behind heat treating cast bullets. Sorry to say it, but if you do it any other way, you are wasting your time!

[dtknowles]

The truth hurts, but this is the real science behind heat treating cast bullets. Sorry to say it, but if you do it any other way, you are wasting your time!

I believe that most of your post was helpful but how is water dropping bullets a waste of time? Water dropping does not take any additional time, well except to fill the bucket and dump it.

How deep into the bullet do you think it gets softened when you size a bullet down one or two thousandth? If I size a bullet down one thou that is half a thou per side. If the softening effect is twice the depth as the material moved won't my rifling still be cutting into the harder metal thus still retaining some of the benefit of the water drop?

There are more ways to get the benefit of water dropping as well, like water drop and pan lube, shoot unsized.

Many shooters see reduction in leading and better accuracy when using water dropped bullets so whatever the cause it is worth the effort to them and others may benefit as well.

Myself, I only water drop for my 9 x 23 and my .357. For rifles I am willing to put the extra cost of more antimony and tin into my alloy when called for. For everything else I am shooting fairly soft lead and having fine results.

Tim

[Defcon-One]

...it is worth the effort to them...Tim


Fill the bucket, carefully drop them, dry them, dump the bucket.....Go for it! Personally, I do not even want water splashing around my casting setup.

It is not worth the effort to me! I just prefer to use good alloy at the right hardness for my load. A well matched alloy doesn't cost that much more!

I just stated the best, right way, to do it. Anyone can obviously do what THEY want.

DC-1

[fecmech]

Will they go ahead and harden after you take them out of the freezer???
Yes they will, you are just slowing the process down in the freezer. They are actually aging in the freezer and hardening, just at a much slower rate. All you are doing is buying yourself time to easily size them

[Ohio Rusty]

I hope the Wife doesn't complain about that. I already have a bunch of dead and frozen turkey parts, feathers and deer fur on the skin in there with all other eatin' stuff (bagged of course). I think the oven treating later after sizing would be great. I have a small toaster oven in the garage I use for heat treating flint, so i can easily set it to heat boolits then quench them all at once after they are sized. Thanks all for the help !!
Ohio Rusty ><>

[gwpercle]

Also, when you size water hardened boolits you work the surface and loose hardness. Cast , air cool and size, then if you want to harden them do the oven heat treat , then quench. Lube them in a die that doesn't resize the diameter or pan lube. Now you got hard boolits.

[Nose Dive]

DC-1 is dead on. Really, water dropping, heat treating to achieve a specific hardness can be achieved by astute alloying of base materials. The oven, the water bucket can be side stepped if you know what to mix, ratios, and treat equipment and temperatures properly. Tooled with all the above, one can alloy and produce any boolit caliber, hardness, design and configuration required without any water or heat.

That being said, one, such as myself, taking and using 'base' components of unknown mix and components, can use the bucket and oven to achieve harnesses without resmelting and recasting of 'unknown' alloys. And, if one, (myself) was again astute, testing, analyzing and realloying unkown quantitative batches of smelt, can produce the said above results. I am simply not inclined to spent the time and do not posses the knowledge and skills required to 'manipulate' my 'granny batches' of smelt to achieve a specific hardness and castablity of the mixes.

So, I 'shotgun' my smelt and if i belive it to be lead rich and low in alloy, I water drop, let dry and age a bit, load, and go to the range. Unscientific to be sure, fun non the less. If I know i wish to resize, as DC-1 and others have suggested, water dropping is negated by the resizing die and thus renders the water in the bucket waste, if not poured over the roses. But, the oven can rescue this soft batch of boolits and the proper heat and cool down time can provide the desired hardness boost. Or, pay me now, or pay me later.

And, as others have already suggested in this thread, the selection, methodology, hardness and amount of time and enjoyment engaged in your efforts is totally up to the individual.