Sales of cast bullets

[Timmayw]

I have been researching the feasibility of starting a business casting bullets. I have read many of the threads on the subject on this forum and others and at least one book on the subject. I feel that I have a good handle on what is required to get started, including all the licenses and fees from the various government alphabet soup agencies (ATF, ITAR, EPA, etc).

I have worked up a complete break even analysis, its not my first rodeo running a business, the only thing that I am serious questions about is sales expectations. Normally I would look at the sales for similar businesses to get a feel for what kind of sales a new start up business in the industry could expect. With bullet casting businesses, most of them are small privately owned so their yearly sales are not readily available. I have only found some general information on what one would expect: 1. casting by hand is impractical, you will not come close to meeting demand. 2. A number of established casting businesses are having difficulty meeting demand, this is certainly due to recent events and expected to be temporary but I have also seen that it is also a reoccurring theme over the last few years, will it continue?? I would think it is likely myself.

So what would be a realistic level of sales for a new bullet casting business? 3 million bullets a year (roughly $275k in sales by my estimation)? 4 million ($350k in sales)? More? less? What are some of the established companies doing a year?

I wouldn't expect incredible sales the first year or so, things take time, I understand that perhaps better then most. If I can see that I could start turning a reasonable profit within a few years of start up I would continue fleshing out the business plan.

Thanks

[Tatume]

What licenses do the BATFE and EPA require of bullet casters?

[338RemUltraMag]

What licenses do the BATFE and EPA require of bullet casters?

You require an FFL 06 because you are manufacturing a part of ammunition.

I was doing pretty good with it but the big problem I had was lubing, that seems to be the bottleneck of the operation.

[Curlymaple42]

Northeast Bullet here in Maine couldn't keep up with demand back when they were around. They went out a while back more due to a divorce i think than anything. They ran the business in their little basement. It was a noisy dirty bullet factory but was fascinating to experience. Good luck with your venture!

[bobthenailer]

IF you havent allready gotten Magma Enginering's book , The Hand book of Comercial Bullet Casting i would recomend it to you !

[Chilmonty]

All good advice! If you are really serious, you definitely want to look at Magma or Ballisti-Cast for equipment.

Bobthenailer, love your screen name! Bob Lee Swagger is my favorite character. Currently reading I Sniper and Time to Hunt is my all time favorite book.

[Timmayw]

What licenses do the BATFE and EPA require of bullet casters?

338RemUltraMag is correct a Type 6 FFL is required to manufacture cast lead bullets to sell.

The EPA has various regulations and permitting requirements for the melting of lead for casting purposes (Air quality standards in what you can exhaust into the atmosphere and hazardous waste disposal in the form of
dross).


You require an FFL 06 because you are manufacturing a part of ammunition.

I was doing pretty good with it but the big problem I had was lubing, that seems to be the bottleneck of the operation.

What were you using for lubing/sizing? I am looking at Magma's automated lube/sizer and a star manual sizer as backup if the other goes down.


Northeast Bullet here in Maine couldn't keep up with demand back when they were around. They went out a while back more due to a divorce i think than anything. They ran the business in their little basement. It was a noisy dirty bullet factory but was fascinating to experience. Good luck with your venture!

As I've been researching this venture I have seem stories like this a lot. The demand can overwhelm you if your not careful. And issues external to the business will kill it quick.

IF you havent allready gotten Magma Enginering's book , The Hand book of Comercial Bullet Casting i would recomend it to you !

I have got that book, read it a few times now. It was a great source of information.


All good advice! If you are really serious, you definitely want to look at Magma or Ballisti-Cast for equipment.

Bobthenailer, love your screen name! Bob Lee Swagger is my favorite character. Currently reading I Sniper and Time to Hunt is my all time favorite book.

I am looking at using all Magma equipment and molds. Two of the automated casters and one of the automated lube/sizer and possibly some of their manual equipment to use as backup if the automated stuff goes down.

[runfiverun]

you'll have to look into availability of the equipment.
right now a star hand operated sizer is over 4 months wait time.
a balisticast hand operated caster the mark vi is about 5-6 months out too.
I have no idea what the wait for either of their automated stuff is.
or how long the wait on a set of molds would be either.

[mdi]

I'm not a business man but I think I would make sure the sales info I get will be for "normal" times, and not after an election of an anti-gunner. As we all know, the scarcity of components today is largely due to our present political climate, and not normal usage...

[earthling121757]

There are a lot of commercial casters out there now, and a lot more that have come and gone. There's a few here on castboolits that have "been there, done that".

What do you plan to do to set yourself apart? How are you going to advertise?

Are you just going to sell commodity bullets (9mm, 38, 40, 45, etc) or are you going to be doing more specialized stuff, like rifle calibers, unusual sizes, gas checked, etc?

I'm not trying to dissuade you, just some questions that you may or may not have considered...

[Timmayw]

you'll have to look into availability of the equipment.
right now a star hand operated sizer is over 4 months wait time.
a balisticast hand operated caster the mark vi is about 5-6 months out too.
I have no idea what the wait for either of their automated stuff is.
or how long the wait on a set of molds would be either.

I am expecting and planning for a 6-9 month wait for equipment.


I'm not a business man but I think I would make sure the sales info I get will be for "normal" times, and not after an election of an anti-gunner. As we all know, the scarcity of components today is largely due to our present political climate, and not normal usage...

That is exactly what I am looking for is what level of sales I could expect in "normal" times. The only way I would move forward is if I can make the business work at a level of sales then is lower then one would expect during "normal" times. But I would also like have the capability(capacity) to take advantage of increased demand when it happens.


There are a lot of commercial casters out there now, and a lot more that have come and gone. There's a few here on castboolits that have "been there, done that".

What do you plan to do to set yourself apart? How are you going to advertise?

Are you just going to sell commodity bullets (9mm, 38, 40, 45, etc) or are you going to be doing more specialized stuff, like rifle calibers, unusual sizes, gas checked, etc?

I'm not trying to dissuade you, just some questions that you may or may not have considered...

My current plan is to sell the high volume pistol bullets and then latter move into the more specialty stuff. I have ran the numbers starting out the other way, starting out with the specialty stuff and then adding volume, but I wasn't satisfied with how it penciled out, it was doable but there were some definite minuses that turned me away from it.

In truth I don't see that I could bring anything new to the table in the way of bullet design, special alloys, or even price. (I do have a number of ideas but none that would scale up to be commercially viable to start out). Were I am seeing opportunity is in advertising and marketing better then the other guys, both online and locally. I see a lot of bullet businesses that are not doing much marketing at all.

[dbosman]

A metal fabricating shop in the area, that was close to two scrapping companies, setup a number of years ago. It was a pet operation of one of the owners running in extra space. They sold locally and mostly at gun shows. That got bigger and bigger. They moved to Texas and are still in operation, to the best of my knowledge. It can work.

As long as you're doing the numbers, can the operation support you and employees and generate a profit?
If not, what if you get sick or injured?

[fredj338]

It can certainly be done & if you buy a huge amount of alloy at a time for best pricing, you can make some money but it has to be semi automated IMO. Back in the late 80s, early 90s I had a lic to manuf so started selling cast bullets to the CAS. There weren't many casters back then & it was a niche market. I did it on a Magma hand caster & Star sizer. A lot of time involved to make a few $$ @ the various matches across the country. Now, with all the EPA regs & such, I doubt I would try again, but if so, a Magma or BalistCast & automatic sizer would be a must. You are restricted to their molds or converting various other manuf as an option, but lots of good designs. I toy with the idea all the time as a retirement business, but I wouldn't have to make a ton of money, just enough to cover costs & maybe 10% profit, after all I would be retired. I just don't know if I would want to deal w/ EPA, state or Fed.

[RPRNY]

The issue with developing forecasts is that it is difficult to foresee a return to "normal" times any time soon. The President intends to fritter away his second term on "gun control" just as he wasted his first term on "healthcare reform". Homeland Security and other agencies are intent on continued mass ammo buys for the foreseeable future. Continuing shortages of j-bullets will drive cast demand. The good news is that if you can get up and running in six months, you will have a solid 24-36 months of probable capacity demand for high volume pistol bullets. The key will be to not overextend, but to use this as a cushion so that you can afford to diversify and survive the possible 6 month glut if "normal" ever returns. Cheap lead will be your biggest potential competitive advantage if you can find it. Alox tumble lubing will mitigate the lube bottleneck but may be a competitive disadvantage.

[snuffy]

http://www.missouribullet.com/AboutUs.php

IF you could end up like Brad who owns the MBC company above, you COULD call yourself successful.

While I've never bought any of his boolits, I have bought some linotype from him. It was delivered on time and exactly what I ordered.

Read his "about us" in the above link. You'll see what it takes to be in the cast boolit business. Notice he's about 6-8 weeks out on orders. He USED TO be able to ship the same day you ordered.

[RobS]

Cast whatever boolits and sell what you have as you cast them.........in-stock/out-of-stock and do not take orders in advance is my advise as a start up. Taking orders can stack up (possible empty promises and no time to do anything personal with your own life)..............it's like digging a hole to only have someone shoveling the same dirt you dug out back down into the hole you are standing in. Creating a website that has in-stock and out of stock should be a very important part of a start up business. Just my 2 cents.

[Timmayw]

A metal fabricating shop in the area, that was close to two scrapping companies, setup a number of years ago. It was a pet operation of one of the owners running in extra space. They sold locally and mostly at gun shows. That got bigger and bigger. They moved to Texas and are still in operation, to the best of my knowledge. It can work.

As long as you're doing the numbers, can the operation support you and employees and generate a profit?
If not, what if you get sick or injured?

I have went as have as to create a full financial spread sheet. I have a good I idea of where my break even point is and where it would generate enough profit that I could quit my current full time job. Using worst case scenario type cost for supplies I come out at 3 mil bullets per year to break even, 4 mil I would be making an OK living, over around 5.5 mil I could start hiring employees. If I got sick or injured is something of an issue, short term family would certainly help out, long term would likely mean the end of the business but the same could be said of nearly any other small business out there.



It can certainly be done & if you buy a huge amount of alloy at a time for best pricing, you can make some money but it has to be semi automated IMO. Back in the late 80s, early 90s I had a lic to manuf so started selling cast bullets to the CAS. There weren't many casters back then & it was a niche market. I did it on a Magma hand caster & Star sizer. A lot of time involved to make a few $$ @ the various matches across the country. Now, with all the EPA regs & such, I doubt I would try again, but if so, a Magma or BalistCast & automatic sizer would be a must. You are restricted to their molds or converting various other manuf as an option, but lots of good designs. I toy with the idea all the time as a retirement business, but I wouldn't have to make a ton of money, just enough to cover costs & maybe 10% profit, after all I would be retired. I just don't know if I would want to deal w/ EPA, state or Fed.

Buying the alloy in large quantities is a must in my mind. I have worked my financial calculations using a non-bulk price as a sort of worst case scenario. When I plug in pricing that I expect for purchasing in bulk things start looking really good with less sales.

The equipment I am looking at is two of Magma's automated caster and one of the automated lube/sizer. Conservatively this should give me a potential for up to 12 mil bullets a year.

I am still researching all of the EPA regs but so far I haven't found anything that would be a deal breaker, and a lot of the requirements, like the hood system, are something that I would have done anyhow just for peace of mind.


The issue with developing forecasts is that it is difficult to foresee a return to "normal" times any time soon. The President intends to fritter away his second term on "gun control" just as he wasted his first term on "healthcare reform". Homeland Security and other agencies are intent on continued mass ammo buys for the foreseeable future. Continuing shortages of j-bullets will drive cast demand. The good news is that if you can get up and running in six months, you will have a solid 24-36 months of probable capacity demand for high volume pistol bullets. The key will be to not overextend, but to use this as a cushion so that you can afford to diversify and survive the possible 6 month glut if "normal" ever returns. Cheap lead will be your biggest potential competitive advantage if you can find it. Alox tumble lubing will mitigate the lube bottleneck but may be a competitive disadvantage.

I tend to agree with you I am thinking that the current political climate is going to continue at least well into 2014 and maybe beyond if we're really unlucky. It kind of bothers me that the success of my potential business rides on continuing threats to our rights, but on the other hand supplying fellow shooters with bullets to reload with would seem to be a good pursuit.


http://www.missouribullet.com/AboutUs.php

IF you could end up like Brad who owns the MBC company above, you COULD call yourself successful.

While I've never bought any of his boolits, I have bought some linotype from him. It was delivered on time and exactly what I ordered.

Read his "about us" in the above link. You'll see what it takes to be in the cast boolit business. Notice he's about 6-8 weeks out on orders. He USED TO be able to ship the same day you ordered.

I have shot a great deal of their 200 grain SWC bullets out of my 1911. Real good stuff. Them being that far out on orders is really telling, the amount of bullets that they are able to crank out is considerable.


Cast whatever boolits and sell what you have as you cast them.........in-stock/out-of-stock and do not take orders in advance is my advise as a start up. Taking orders can stack up (possible empty promises and no time to do anything personal with your own life)..............it's like digging a hole to only have someone shoveling the same dirt you dug out back down into the hole you are standing in. Creating a website that has in-stock and out of stock should be a very important part of a start up business. Just my 2 cents.

This is actually something that a I have seen as being the down fall of other bullet or small ammo makers. Taking on too much business (a lot of people think there is no such thing but it is very true for a small business just starting out) and getting behind on back orders and loosing customers and generating a lot of bad press because of it. So would be sure to have a website that allowed for in stock only sales.

[Buzz64]

Hats off...good luck. Looks like you are serious and doing your homework - where there's a will there's a way!

[257]

there is a fellow buy me has 2 magmas and there autmated luber sizer has a web page it is mostly turned off for orders he runs 12 hours a day 6 days a week and can't even begin to keep up he's been that way for 7 /8 years.he casts his high volume stuff on the two autmated magmas and most of his rifle stuff on a master caster one of the reasons he does so well is he ships flat rate boxes thru the post office

[Timmayw]

there is a fellow buy me has 2 magmas and there autmated luber sizer has a web page it is mostly turned off for orders he runs 12 hours a day 6 days a week and can't even begin to keep up he's been that way for 7 /8 years.he casts his high volume stuff on the two autmated magmas and most of his rifle stuff on a master caster one of the reasons he does so well is he ships flat rate boxes thru the post office

I think I know who you are referring to, I have the link somewhere just can't find it at the moment. Last I looked at his website he was only opening up his website for orders every week or two and only for a half hour or until a certain number of orders had been taken. Knowing how many machines he has and how many hours/days he works gives me a fair idea of sales. Even at half of that things look good.

[jonp]

Northeast Bullet here in Maine couldn't keep up with demand back when they were around. They went out a while back more due to a divorce i think than anything. They ran the business in their little basement. It was a noisy dirty bullet factory but was fascinating to experience. Good luck with your venture!
I still have 2 boxes of 500 from them I bought in Errol, NH. Good stuff. I wondered why I couldn't find them anymore.

[Curlymaple42]

Yeh, total bummer, since I could stop in on my way through any old day!

[Adam10mm]

There are a lot of commercial casters out there now, and a lot more that have come and gone. There's a few here on castboolits that have "been there, done that".
Raises hand. Now I only cast for what gets loaded into my ammunition, but that's how I got my start was as a commercial bullet caster.


I am expecting and planning for a 6-9 month wait for equipment.
Add a few months to that. Magma is quoting 12-14 months for casting machines.


That is exactly what I am looking for is what level of sales I could expect in "normal" times. The only way I would move forward is if I can make the business work at a level of sales then is lower then one would expect during "normal" times. But I would also like have the capability(capacity) to take advantage of increased demand when it happens.
One thing that will help you estimate that better is look at your target customer. Are you going retail direct only, wholesale only, or a mix of both? If a mix, what percentage of each will make up your revenue.


My current plan is to sell the high volume pistol bullets and then latter move into the more specialty stuff. I have ran the numbers starting out the other way, starting out with the specialty stuff and then adding volume, but I wasn't satisfied with how it penciled out, it was doable but there were some definite minuses that turned me away from it.
One of the biggest minuses of that plan is you start out the gate at the commodity market. 9/40/45/357/44 is a really tough market to compete in unless you have something different. In times like these, people just want the supply to be there. The margins on commodity bullets is really small. Look at your numbers versus the overpriced Cast Performance bullets. Twenty five cents a bullet for something I sell for a dime less. Sheesh.


http://www.missouribullet.com/AboutUs.php

IF you could end up like Brad who owns the MBC company above, you COULD call yourself successful.
I remember when Brad was hitting the forums to market his business and he sent me a PM asking for some help in the industry. I let him in on a few things I learned that far and it seems to have helped along the way. We stay in touch and he's returned the favor by helping me out when I need it. If anything, he's just a great guy that treats people they way they want to be treated.


This is actually something that a I have seen as being the down fall of other bullet or small ammo makers. Taking on too much business (a lot of people think there is no such thing but it is very true for a small business just starting out) and getting behind on back orders and loosing customers and generating a lot of bad press because of it.
Yep. Happened to me. Twice. Once in bullet casting and once in ammo. Learned my lessons the hard way and now I'm staying local only. No mail order.


So would be sure to have a website that allowed for in stock only sales.
Yep. If you can't ship it out in 48 hours, it's not for sale.