Keyholing - Why?????

[doctorggg]

This is a new experience for me. I just purchased a Rossi Rio Grande 30-30 20" barrel. Mounted a Burris 3-9x40 scope. I did not clean the barrel from the factory (shame on me.) The barrel slugs @ .3085 and the bore is .296. Yesterday I cast Noe's .311 165 gr RF which I understand was designed for a Marlin. The boolits (COWW + little tin) were water dropped. I placed AL gas checks and sized at .310 with lube of about 50/50 FWFL & 2500 plus. The 4500 was running dry of FWFL and I had added the 2500+. Each boolit had about 50% of each lube. The boolits averaged 168.5 grains total. The boolits measured 14.0 BHN yesterday with my Cabin Tree tester. My load was 23.7 grains IMR 4895, WLR primer, mixed brass 1x fired. I had to seat the boolit deeper (oal 2.445") than the crimping groove to get the cartridges to chamber. No crimp was applied. I shot them singularly because of zero crimp.

Normally I would break in a new barrel with j bullets but none are to be found. I also would let the boolits season. Time was of the essence since I only get to shoot a few times a year and all the components including the rifle just arrived. It's 52 miles each way. So this is the first time I've broken in a barrel using lead boolits.

If the pictures show up the first one to hit the target totally keyholed (first target lower left). The same with the next 3. The first 2 shots were off paper. I was sighting in the scope and the bullets gradually began to straighten out. The second target the first one to hit it keyholed (lower left). The second target upper group has 13 shots and most appeared to have entered straight. Although the first one on the bottom left had no stabilized. The yardage was 25 yards. Total 20 shots fired. The section I cut out of the target was a group from another rifle.

I have not cleaned the rifle yet but looking down the barrel using a light I see minimal to zero leading at the chamber end or the muzzle. There was a slight lube star on the muzzle.
Advice and speculations please. Thanks

My crony's battery died but the 3 I recorded were 1550-1600 fps.

[Chicken Thief]

No 1 rule:
No copper in a lead barrel!
Clean the s*** out af that barrel and it will shoot cast.
Lead will adhere to copper wery well (think electronics circuit boards).

[doctorggg]

Anybody else have any ideas????

[doctorggg]

Am i looking for leading or the cut of the crown?

[W.R.Buchanan]

I personally think you should run a hundred j words thru it and see what happens. The fact that your bore is .296 is a ? it should be more like .300? If the boolit nose end is larger than .296 then obviously it could not enter the bore. Also having to seat the boolits deeper might be causing problems. However none of these would be a keyhole problem. Keyholing is caused by lack of adequate spin on the boolit , IE the Boolit is not stabilized enough to fly strait.

My final thought is run them a little faster, like 1700-1800 fps. and see what happens,,,, After you fire a bunch of J words thru it or lapp the rough spots out of it.

Randy

[Larry Gibson]

The boolits (COWW + little tin) were water dropped.........The boolits measured 14.0 BHN yesterday with my Cabin Tree tester.

I would double check that alloy. I WQ'd the BHN should be 20+ with COWWs + tin.

I also would try the same bullets with Hornady, Lyman or Blammer GCs with the same load.

Larry Gibson

[doctorggg]

You know how it is. You purchase it on fleabay and they advertise COWW. You never know what you really get.
I can't find any J words on the internet for 30-30. Would it hurt to run some 152 or 147 FMJ as long as I single loaded them??? This is my first 30-30 and it was my first load. Rushed. I will bump up the powder charge.

[NVScouter]

My rio grande was nasty with machine residue and packing compound when I got it new. Brake cleaner and follow with a good scrubbing and try it again.

[YunGun]

I had a vaguely similar occurrence recently that turned out to be nothing more than a windy day and my target stand/backer board moving in the wind. The exact same load shot just fine before & after that particular outing.

That may very well not be your issue here since the rest don't seem to have keyholed, just don't be too quick to create a problem where none exists. I'd have to try it again & see how it behaves before passing judgement. Just my 2 cents...

[RobS]

Good point YunGun.........wind in Kansas and targets moving.

[runfiverun]

I think you ain't looking at the holes you are looking at the colored paper.
i'd speed them up anyway.
it's a rifle it will shoot cast faster than that, if you want slow get a plain base mold.
don't waste all the work of making good boolits and gas checks to shoot a rifle at revolver speeds.

[doctorggg]

We can rule out wind. It was zero. I've never tried to break in a new rifle barrel with cast boolits. I think the dirty barrel from the factory and too slow of speed was the major contributor. If anyone else has any ideas I would appreciate it. The first shots going through totally sideways then it slowly straightening itself out lead me to think it was from copper and oil fouling in the barrel.

[Jeff82]

+1 to WR Buchanan's statement: "Also having to seat the boolits deeper might be causing problems. However none of these would be a keyhole problem. Keyholing is caused by lack of adequate spin on the boolit , IE the Boolit is not stabilized enough to fly strait."

I don't shoot 30-30, so I can only give general speculation. Leading is not always easy to detect with a borescope. I'd clean out the barrel with a really tight jab --you probably have already done this. I'd verify the BHN of your bullets --again, you've probably already done this. If they're too hard you'll need to push them harder or they won't seal well and won't spin properly.

Checking the crown is also a good idea.

I've found that some bullets for whatever reason don't go with some guns. I've also found that individual bullets will perform differently at different velocities (relating to hardness and design).

If it's any consolation, I usually work for about two-years to get a really good cartridge/bullet for a specific gun or application.

[doctorggg]

I just cleaned the barrel and only got 3 black (powder fouling) patches. Ran clean after that. I then ran a bore brush with bronze wool around it and still zero leading. The muzzle looks good. I agree that the boolit doesn't fit this rifle. I remeasured the bore and came up with .295-.296 which quoted above should be .300. So I need a narrower nose bullet. Any mold suggestions. Al Nelson said he would run a narrower nose for me when he reruns this size. Don't know when that would be. Currently Tom is making a mold to fit my rifle. about 4 week backlog.

Question: how wide does the meplat have to be, to be safe in a lever action?
Thanks for the great help and getting me on the right track.

[cajun shooter]

If Tom is already in the process of making you a mould then you and he should of talked about your bullet design. Tom is one of the best mould makers around and for a very fair price. Look at his site and see the different designs for lever action 30 caliber rifles. You only need a flat meplat to not set the primer in front off. Look at the cowboy designs by RCBS also as it will give you a idea also.

[doctorggg]

If Tom is already in the process of making you a mould then you and he should of talked about your bullet design. Tom is one of the best mould makers around and for a very fair price. Look at his site and see the different designs for lever action 30 caliber rifles. You only need a flat meplat to not set the primer in front off. Look at the cowboy designs by RCBS also as it will give you a idea also.

Thank you Cajun Shooter. Tom answered me today. See below. He is a great person to deal with.
He had already rec. 31-170E as his most popular 30-30 mold.


I’ve made a note of your bore diameter. It’s nice that you caught that.

Thanks

Tom

[popper]

You should be able to get 1" groups at that range and load, even without checks and ACWW, consistently. I'm guessing just a dirty bore, you got it cleaned out the 'easy?' way. I seated the RD TL version deeper like you did, ~ .030 vs your .01", FCD where ever it lands. The RD 170 works better in my 336. You have a 12:1 or 10:1 twist? Your fps, if accurate, is no slouch but you should try ~ 27 gr. and see how it works. As you had no leading I'd not worry about breaking in the bbl, just season it with cast. I only use hornady GC, I was wondering about the alum ones maybe coming off. Did you use any dacron filler? I use H4895 which works with light loads but found dacron makes it burn better.

[doctorggg]

1 in 12 twist. No filler. The Hornady GC did not want to seat easily on the boolit so I used my AL (14 thousanths best I remember) free chex. They were tight. I plan on upping the load next go round. Thanks for the advice.

[HiVelocity]

Ranch Dog's molds were both made for, and tested in, leverguns. There's no reason why it won't shoot correctly in your rifle. I agree with others, roll up your sleeves, clear off the bench, or supper table, and get to scrubbing. And as absurd as this sounds, keep scrubbing until you get a clean white patch. Any green residue means copper is still present. I cleaned "all" my rifles in this fashion til they were properly cleaned. Then swab and polish the bores with JPW. Try it, you have nothing to lose.

Just food for thought,

HV

PS- I seat gas checks using 2 different Lee sizing dies. .312 first, then through .310. You'd be surprised in the difference. I do 45 Colt checks in like fashion.

[doctorggg]

Do we know that Noe's mold 311-165 RF is a clone of Ranch Dog? That's above my pay grade.:veryconfu. I've measured the boolit and the nose is too wide for my bore. The barrel is clean. I appreciate the tip on the JPW and how you seat your gas checks. If I am sizing down more than a thou I usually use the 4500 a thou or two larger then run it through the Lee. Thanks

[detox]

1 in 12 twist. No filler. The Hornady GC did not want to seat easily on the boolit so I used my AL (14 thousanths best I remember) free chex. They were tight. I plan on upping the load next go round. Thanks for the advice.

Gas checks must be seated square. Try shooting without gas checks

[popper]

RD 165 mold is too big for new Marlin 30-30. 170 works fine. Seating deeper will somewhat solve the problem. Sometimes I have to tap the nose with a small hammer to get the GC to seat. Base flash will also make seating hard.

[338RemUltraMag]

The Rio Grande is a clone of the Marlin 336 if I remember... My go to load for my Marlin 30-30 is a 311041 sized to .311 with my aluminum gas checks and lubed with Car Red infront of 34 gr of IMR 4350. That is the equivelant of a factory load and shoots lights out at 50 and 100 yds.

Please note 34 gr is a max load work up from 32 gr

[doctorggg]

Thanks Guys I am learning more all the time. I received my back ordered RCBS 150 cowboy action mold yesterday. Anybody have any suggested loads for a plain based boolit?

[338RemUltraMag]

6 gr of trailboss or 5 gr of unique

[W.R.Buchanan]

Keep the speed down below 1500fps with a plain based boolit in a rifle.

Randy

[doctorggg]

Thank you 338 and WR. This is the type info I need.

[doctorggg]

6989769892

Listened to all the advice you kind gentlemen gave me. The above target was shot at 25 yards with a scope in the Rossi 30-30. The load was RCBS 150 gr plain based cowboy mold sized to .310 with Ben's Red lube. Weight was 153.5 with lube. coww water cooled with a BHN of 22.0. 5.0 grains of Unique with zero filler ignited with a WLR primer. AVG = 955 fps, sd-13.3, es-37.2.
Shot #3 was the one to the right and not a called flier. Total group minus .310 diameter = .556".
The group of 4 minus .310=.137" group. Zero leading. I have now beagled this mold to .311 since some of the boolits sized very little at .310. I am a happy shooter. I had shot 5 boolits prior to this group to season the barrel. Thanks guys.


It's the target on the left. I could not figure out how to remove the 45-70 gallery load

[doctorggg]

I think I should use softer lead next time. Although it's hard to change success. I will move to 50 yards next trip.
Do most people up the velocity? I was using 338REMMAG's advice of the 5 grains of unigue. Would a filler be better? Thanks for the advice.

[TXGunNut]

Glad you got it figured out. I had a Marlin 336 I finally gave up on. Every 4th or 5th boolit would keyhole. I was using the RD moulds, Hornady GC's, 50/50 HT alloy, etc and never could get a handle on it. Pulled the scope, gave her a good cleaning and traded her off. Was a shame too, action smoothed up nicely as I was trying to make her work and she had decent wood, too. Shot j-words just fine, she'll make someone a good rifle.