Casting and Loading 38-55

[cwheel]

I recently started to work up rounds for a original Winchester 94 38-55 made in 1917 that is in great condition. Bore slugs out to .380. I'm starting out with a 265 gr. boolet from a single cavity Lyman 375296 gas checked mold that drops castings at .382. Sounds perfect to me, except that when trying to chamber the loaded rounds, they are to big for the chamber, OD is to large. I'm guessing that modern shells have a thicker wall making the OD of the loaded round to large. Wondering if someone here has been down this road and knows the answer. I've fired a few rounds that I ran back through the sizing die just a little to squeze the round a little smaller. Sure this reduced the boolet size enough to yeald lots of lead in the bore from a boolet that is to small. Wondering what the answer is on this one ?? Any ideas appreciated, thanks,
Chris

[.22-10-45]

Hello, cwheel. Yes, been down that road with 1901 Winchester High-Wall. It's not the modern brass...these rifles were designed for black powder, and in order to be able to have multiple shots.. without fouling problems, especially in a repeating rifle, the factory bullet was soft alloy & undersized..around .375 dia. or so. The kick of the black powder charge upset it enough for at least good hunting accuracy.
The problem comes in when smokeless loads are used..and using a groove dia. or larger bullet, as you have found.
I have reamed & polished inside neck dia. larger..but this can excessivly thin necks and lead to short case life. In an original rifle, I wouldn't want to ream chamber larger..but it's your rifle.
I have found the original length Starline brass to be a bit thinner than others & by careful polishing,a few thou. can be removed without too much harm. My groove dia. is .379, & I am using a .380 dia. bullet.

[cwheel]

22.10-45, looking at it, you are probibly right. Brass passed to me with the rifle is old Winchester and Canadian Imperial brand. I pulled a J bullet from one of the Imperial brand to find it mics @.375, way to small for the bore. The first 10 I loaded ( I only fired 3 until I discovered the leading ) were @.380, but after running the loaded rounds back into the sizer and pulled measured @.377. Think this explains the leading. Are you saying that if I bought new Starline brass I could seat a .380-.382 and still chamber the round ?? If that is true, guess it's time to buy a few hundred new brass cases. Another problem found is the expander die in the RCBS die is .376. If I'm going to have to load up at least .380 to fit the bore, looks like I'm going to have to make a new expander plug to fit the larger boolet. Think this could end up being a great short range deer rifle. Other thing that happened within the first 3 shots, keyholes in the target for all 3 shots. Thinking the leading and keyholing are a sure sign of to small a boolet. Going to have to fix the boolet size issue before I can expect much from this one. Thanks,
Chris

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Just an idea that might work so possibly would be worth a try; paper patching...the bearing surface of the 375296 is pretty long and a couple of turns of suitable paper would raise the diameter of the bullet to whatever you need to improve accuracy and get rid of the leading. I use Lyman 375248 and an old Winchester mold(with wooden handles); both cast around .382 so I have had no problem in 3 different rifles. Another idea that has worked for some folks is "beagling" the mold which raises the as cast diameter. Yet another thing that might help is adding some tin (2-3%) to WW metal as this increases to some extent the as cast diameter. A good reference for this is found in the "terracorp" formula (check internet search) or Saeco literature. With some of the searching and trying you will win this one. A little patience and some occasional cussing also helps. LLS

[hydraulic]

Contact RCBS in Oroville and ask for a .379 cowboy expander plug.

[MattOrgan]

My experience with an old 94 was either to cast a soft bullet sized to .376 (range scrap) and use Red Dot. It seemed to work fairly well, but my bore is smooth. I tried black powder, that worked too, but I hate the clean up. The option I settled on was to outside neck turn my cases just enough to seat a proper diameter bullet. I think a proper sized inside reamer would be better, but I don't have the skills to make one. An outside pilot was pretty easy to make. I just got a Chief Crazy Horse 94 ( new in the box yet) that I haven't slugged yet. I'm hoping what I've heard was true, that these modern Winchester's have .375 bores. Good luck, its a great round.

[cwheel]

Thanks hydraulic for the idea on the expander plug. I was about to fire up the lathe and make my own out of tool steel. I like the idea about calling RCBS much better for the first choice. My goal here is to load up some of the 265 gr. with some 2400 to about the 1600 fps level ( 16 gr ?? ) to not overstress this nice old rifle. Think I'm going to run some brass through the sizing die and measure the ID of the case mouth. If I have to, will try to ream the ID of the case to .380 to use a .381 sized boolet with a gas check. Hope that the .001 press fit won't crush the cases. With the bore slugged at .380 and the rifleing measuring .004 per side, would like to get the +.001 (.381) to get a good bite into the rifleing. Don't think I want to use BP in loads for this one or paper patching, there is got to be a way to safely do this without eather of these.
Chris

[Green Lizzard]

use starline brass it is thinner in the neck area

[cwheel]

May end up having to use starline brass. I have 200 new Winchester cases from Midway that I bought over 10 years ago for this project I'd like to use if possible. Being now retired, finaly got time to work on this one. I'd like to hand this rifle to my grandson for his first deer hunt letting him know that his great great grandfather bought and used this one. It cost $17 from Hudson Bay Co. back in 1917. Grandson will be the 4th generation using this rifle. Would add something to the hunt to be sure. After that I'd like to go a little beyond that point by taking the time that the rlfles original owner took with me teaching me to cast boolets and reload, would close the circle some.
Chris

[Tatume]

May end up having to use starline brass. I have 200 new Winchester cases from Midway that I bought over 10 years ago for this project I'd like to use if possible. Chris

Hi Chris,

Measure the outside diameter of a loaded cartridge, near the case mouth. If it is indeed too large to chamber, you may be able to save your Winchester cases by either neck reaming or outside neck turning (either one).

Take care, Tom

[cwheel]

Checked my powder box and I do have about 4 lbs of AA2200 here. Powder is still a little hard to come by here in Nevada, try some test loads with that first once the expander plug gets here. Also found a .380 reamer in my pile of reamers last night, what was the chances of that happening ?? See if Midway has a sizing die for .381 and think I'll be ready to go give it a try. Think I'm going to feel better leaving the chamber alone on this one, leave it all original, and play with the brass to get what I need. If this winchester brass doesn't work out, I'll pick up some Starline. Still will try to ream out this unfired Winchester first to try to salvage it, nothing to loose, if it doesn't work, it will be scrap anyway. I load and shoot lots of cast, mostly handgun and 30:30. Looks like 38:55 is going to require a little more work than most, hope for good results this time. Thanks for the help to all, think I'll start gathering what I need to give it another try.
Chris

[.22-10-45]

If your using a gas-chec bullet, you might get away with using a .380 groove dia. bullet & G.C. will allow a bit more neck tension without having case reduce base band dia. I had to use a groove dia. gas checked bullet in a Winchester-Lee straight pull sporter..just to get it to chamber in that tight neck (.0005" UNDER groove dia.!) though G.C. was annealed, spring-back was enough for .001" over groove dia. & everything worked fine. Best of luck!

[cwheel]

I am using a G.C. bullet, .380 would make for a slightly thicker case wall at the neck. Going to break out my loading die set for 30:30 and see what neck tension, or press fit is used on that one. Loading that one with bullets sized to .309 works well with no leading, good bullet hold as well. Trying to avoid the leading of the first 3 shots and not have to clean this thing for a couple of weeks after use to get the lead out. .380 would fit the bore. Looking at the cases I have, and the RCBS dies I have, bet all of this stuff is set up for the newer 38:55 guns with a .375 barrel. Hopefully where there is a will, there is a way.
Chris

[coyotebait]

cwheel
You have been given some good advice so far. The only thing I would add is to try some TrailBoss powder as it seems to give the soft lead boolit a spank similar to black powder. I have had very good results with the Lee 379-250 RF mold which drops at .380 using ww/pure 50/50 and TrailBoss. My rifle barrel slugs at .380 groove/.373 bore. My TrailBoss load only gives me 1050 fps but is accurate out to 200 yards in levergun competition shooting steel.
coyotebait

[cwheel]

Thanks coyotebate, trailboss could be in the future, but for the first few trys are going to have to use somthing I already have here. We live close to California, powder supplies dryed up there long ago and the folks from over the hill have the shelves in our stores empty as well. What is there is more than twice the price. Until we get through the politics of these times and prices and supplies stabilize, need to try what I have. Working on this 38-55 some this afternoon. Looked at some 30:30 loads and how the dies are set up for this and I find that there is a .002 press fit on the boolit. Expander is .307 and I'm using boolits sized to .309, press on that one is fine. On the 38-55 will try to get a .380 to press into a case expanded to .378 as long as it doesn't crush the case going in. Lots of stuff to gather before trying this, expander, size and lube die, ream some cases so the loaded round will chamber. Glad I started on this one a little early, few months until deer season, think there should be more than enough time to work out the kinks,
Chris

[Green Frog]

I think if you will go to the StarLine™ brass you should be OK. My two original high-wall barrels in 38-55 didn't get enough shooting to make a real informed comment here, but I did some load testing with a friend whose Uberti copy had a huge bore... over .382, and he used an old Ideal mould of mine that dropped bullets at close to .386 IIRC. He loaded them up in some new StarLine™ brass and got great results. He's still trying to buy that mould from me! ;)

Froggie

[L Ross]

My friends and I have found the 38-55 to be problematic. First problem seems to be tight necks with large bores. By the time we get a bullet big enough the loaded rounds can't chamber. Then there is the problem of modern brass being too short. Now Starline offers correct length brass so that helps. We have contemplated the drastic fix of having the chambers modified but haven't so far because we are dealing with old Hepburns and H-Walls. Thus far we have had the best luck using the largest bullet that will chamber with a soft alloy, (1-25) and shooting either black, 2400, or 4227. Still haven't attained match grade accuracy though.

Duke

[cwheel]

This new unfired Winchester brass is starting out .033 short to begin with. (2.085 ) Tight chambers, big bore, sounds like the same problem to me. Winchester brass was ordered more than 10 years ago from Midway, guess that makes it new old stock. It was placed on a shelf waiting for a time when I could do the work up on it. Think the new production J loaded round has bullets sized for the new guns with a .375bore, not a chance to get them to fire well in this old gun, with a .380 bore, much like yours. Think the only way these are going to have a chance to work well again is with cast boolits. Will be a little while until all the stuff gets here, this is going to be fun to try. This Winchester brass only has a .010 wall at the case mouth, the Starline the others are recomending here has to be thinner than that. See where this goes, might end up with some Starline and having to scrap the Winchester to get a .380 boolit (minimum size) to chamber.
Chris

[rintinglen]

A few years back one of my shooting buddies had the similar problem of too tight neck, too large bore. He ended up making cases from 30-30 cases, after annealing and expanding with 8mm, and (IIRC) 35 Rem expander balls the resulting cases were run into the 38-55 dies and the brass was thin enough to chamber. I suspect that the cases may have been a tad short but they worked well enough for him to use the gun successfully in Cowboy Silhouette shooting.

[cwheel]

Think I found the answer to the problem. Measured the end of the chamber where the case mouth sets, it measures .396. Also did a good measurement on sized brass ID at the case mouth and it measured .372 before any expanding. If I use a .375 reamer on this brass once it goes through the sizer, but before it gets expanded, I'll remove .003 from the ID of the case mouth. .375 reamer is a common 3/8" reamer. With a
.380 sized boolit the stacked up sizes should allow the loaded round to chamber easy with .002 clearance. The RCBS Cowboy expander @.379 expander plug should hold the .380 round well with a slight crimp, shouldn't crush the case with to much press seating a .380 boolit. Size and lube die on the way, expander plug on the way, can't wait to give it a try. Reamed several cases this morning, best results was doing this in my lathe with plenty of lube and slow RPM. Couple of weeks for this stuff to get here and we will see how this all works. Bottom line here seams to be the cases are set up for a .375 dia round, and in these old rifles with a .380 bore, stacked up sizes exceed the .396 chamber ID. I'm sure now that these Winchester cases I have are set up to load and chamber a .375 bullet and chamber them in a newer gun with a . 375 bore. Other thing I'm going to have to watch for is an even expansion with the .379 Cowboy expander, will use plenty of sizing lube here and try to keep the case expansion even. Think I'm only going to ream out about 10 cases first and make sure all of this works. Thanks to all posters here for some great advise. End of this still might end up using the thinner Starline brass, but would like to come up with a way to salvage what I have on hand, 200 rounds of this would be good to be able to use. thanks again,
Chris

[gandydancer]

good information you all. I have an old marlin 93 I will start working with. thanks guys. GD

[hunter64]

Cwheel: Welcome to the wonderful world of Win. 94 in 38-55. Most that I have run into from the first year of production until about 1920 or there about have the exact problem that you have mentioned.

I was given a 1905 Win.94 38-55 rifle that was my grandfathers after he passed away in 1994. The rifle had been sitting for about 15 years in the back of the porch at grand fathers house and he always complained that he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it. Looking down the bore you can hardly see any rifleing at all the last 10 inches or so of the barrel. I remember trying it when I was in my teens and you might be able to hit a Gerry can at 50 yards with it with factory ammo.

It sat and sat with no use and when I enquired about it after grand dad died my uncle said I could have it but "I don't know what you are going to do with it other than hang it on the wall".

Last year I decided to give it a whirl and with the 10 rounds I had left in a box that came with it I tried it out at 100 yards and out of the 10 shots I managed to get 3 bullets on the 8.5 x 11 paper and that was it.

I slugged the bore and it came out at .381 so I bought a cheap lee mould and beagled it out to get a .382 bullet. I tried loading it in Winchester brass and there is no way in heck it would chamber. I happened to pick up 50 starline cases and tried again with the .382 bullet and this time it would chamber almost all the way and with a bit of force on the lever it would chamber.

I got in on the NOE 38-55 group buy and had buckshot make me a .381 sizer die to try and see if I could get any accuracy out of this rifle at all. After sizing the new bullet with the .381 sizer and using Starline brass the case will chamber just barely.

So I tried various powders and last weekend I hit the jack pot. 30 grn of RE 7, starline brass, win. primer and just over 1.5" for 5 shots at 100 yards.


http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/8072/cci020520130000.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/705/cci020520130000.jpg/)

Now I am going to load up 25 rounds and shoot 5 at a time and let the rifle cool in between and repeat at the same target to get a good representation of the load/gun combo. I can hardly believe it, the variation of the bullet impact on the target between different loads and powder was amazing. First 10 5 shot groups with IMR 3031 was right on the bullseye and when I switched to RE7 the group jumped up 5 " and barely made it on the paper. The bullet to the left was from the target on the left side at 29.5 grn of RE7.

Can't wait to try it on a nice whitetail deer this fall if I get time to get out and hunt.

[cwheel]

Going to try to attach some pics with this one, first try on this site. If I can end up with that good of a group, I'll be very happy. Waiting for the parts to get here and give it a go. If the pictures work out you will see this 38-55 is the short carbine with a half mag, crecent butt plate and tangent sights. Looking at your target, I'm thinking that the load will have to zero the rifle with the load more than be concerned about the FPS of the round. Once ( if ) I get the zero set, the tangent sights take over past 100. Notice the post type front sight in the last pic. Looks like Grandpa filed it some to bring the zero up at some time in the past. This must have been for factory ammo as this was the only firearm he did not reload for. This one dates to 1917 by the SN and the original reciept from Hudson Bay Co.
Chris

[cwheel]

Was able to load up a .381 boolit into one of the reamed cases. Reaming out .003 seams to have done it, round chambers and feeds well. Now as soon as the new expander, and size and lube die gets here, will run a few and try to work up some loads. Had to make a machined spud to use as a .379 expander, worked well. Might have to make my own in the end and go up to .380 for a little better fit on the thinner brass to seat the
.381 boolits with a little less press. Think I'll end up using up these Winchester cases, and some Imperial I have in the box. Thanks to all, will repost pics of targets if and when all of this works out.
Chris