Shotgun question

[starmac]

You guys that hunt with front stuffer shotguns (ducks) do you use single barrels or doubles. If doubles, I am assuming percussion instead of flint.
I haven't used a shotgun for years, but have been itching to get into duck hunting with a muzzle loading shotgun and haven't made up my mind whether to go single or double.

[451 Pete]

Starmac,
I have hunted ducks in the past also, but with a modern shotgun because the older guns use damascus and have thinner barrels. I dont have a modern muzzle loader in a shotgun so steel shot is not an option for my guns. I will say that I always have liked the double barrels better than the singles for hunting, modern or not. I seem to be able to come up and aquire the target quicker in my sights because the side by side has the wider sighting plane. JMO

Pete

[Nobade]

Hard to get enough velocity with BP to make steel work right. Bismuth shot works great, only costs about $1 every time you fire it.

Single or double - depends on which you shoot best or even more importantly which one you own! Lots of good doubles on the market now thanks to Pedersoli, not many singles out there available.

-Nobade

[starmac]

I shoot left handed and always shot doubles, since graduating from a single at 15 years old. I never gave the sight plane a thought, just the extra shot. Hmmm
I still own both in modern guns, but both are choked too tight to be used with steel shot.
I don't yet own a muzzle loading shotgun, but have been wondering if people that uses a double find that second shot all that usable after the smoke clears.
I also hadn't given any thought to velocities using black and steel shot, can a guy just choose his shots accordingly?

[Smokepole60]

There's many a 25 round been fired on the skeet field using black powder doubles. An as long as the guns in good shape they are totally safe when using black powder... Including Damascus barrels.

[DIRT Farmer]

Starmac my dream gun is a flint double, I have shot several and have yet to see the pan flash on the left barrel. I shoot bismuth in the old guns and in the Pedersoli 10. My first banded goose was with a Brown Bess. I also hunt quail over dogs. A pair of quail is very doable with a B/P double gun.
As for shooting doubles in skeet, the pair is just slightly slower than with a modern gun due to the smoke.
With a two bird limit hunts with my modern ten are short if birds are working.

[starmac]

Dirt Farmer, that is exactly the info I was looking for. While I plan on getting a flintlock rifle later this year, my currant rifles are percussion and if I happen to get a double shotgun, it will be a percussion for now. If I just go with a single I might would go flint, but finding a lefty single might take some looking or big bucks for a custom build.

We just had a gunshow this past weekend, this particular one always has had for the last few years had at least a couple of reasonably priced double percussion guns, now that I am in the market, there wasn't the first one. lol

[nekshot]

I also find flint doubles calling. My question is the choke issue. I have taken plenty of fowl with smokeless in mostly mod chokes and a few full chokes but how do you deal with the lack of choke in a muzzle loader? How far is ethical killing range and is this where bigger bores come into the picture? I have a bp 20ga perc double and it really is more of a novelty than a game getter unless the game is with in 20 yards. And what size shot do you use on geese with bp?
nekshot

[waksupi]

A friend did the testing of various shot types and sizes for the ammunition companies many years ago. He said a ten bore black powder shotgun throws the best, longest range patterns. I think there is a double 10 bore available.
If you start looking at double flinters, the only ones I know of that are currently available are NOT a good option. I bought one of them a few years ago, and returned it immediately without firing. I considered it unsafe to shoot. A custom build would be the only route, and wil lbe expensive.
If you want a left hand flinter, check out North Star West. We build 'em.

[nekshot]

Yikes, a 10 bore! My neck has been reconstructed and the next deal is between shoulder blade area. I think I will pass on the thumpers and consider it a good idea. I have a o\u 20 ga and the 3inch mags are more than I can handle now. Thanks for the input.
nekshot

[DIRT Farmer]

The great thing about M/Ls is you can decide what load you want when you load it. In my ten I load a 7/8th oz load for skeet, for waterfoul 1 1/4 oz of bismuth. In a cylinder bore gun you can get close to what would be considered modifed patterns by playing with the load and wad combination. If I need/want to go all AT&T I have modern 3 1/2 inch tens loaded with heavy shot. When we were mandated to use steel shot I had to learn that the max range on waterfoul was 30-35 yds and that is still the max range I shoot. The only reason to shoot futher out is backup shots on cripples. We hunt decoying birds and try for 15 to 20 yards to call the shot. If one follows those rules which I enforce when single shots are used a 20 or 28 ga works well. The first game taken with my 28 ga flint trade gun were two mallard drakes on a morning hunt. Ducks that you have landed in the decoys and flushed at ten yards dont require a lot of gun and how many can you eat in a day anyway.

[starmac]

Who makes a decent 12 or 20 gauge double percussion. Or rather which ones would you look at if you were in the market. Not thinking fancy here, just a shooter.

[Nobade]

Currently produced Pedersolis are quite nice. You can get them from Dixie Gun Works and others, sometimes Cabelas too.

-Nobade

[KCSO]

Here in Nebraska we have a MAJOR problem with duck hunting, steel shot is required for muzzleloaders. Steel is an absolute no no in any old original gun and most repros. In addition in a flinter you can't get any velocity out of it. Now IF I were to hunt ducks I would use my 20 bore trade gun in flint lock with 75 grains of FFG and two hard card wads over the powder and 1 1/4 oz of #5 sht and it would drop ducks just fne out to 30 yards. IF I were to use my 12 ga sxs double the load would be 85 Griand sof FFG and 1 3/8 of #5's and since the double is choled I/C and Mod I would drop ducks out to 35 yards. I would do this while canoeing the swamps and would probably drop a limit of ducks every trip, IF I hunted ducks. I sure wouldn't shoot ANY steel shot in a M/L double and would hesitate to shot any in my flinter either.

[gnoahhh]

My experience mirrors DIRTfarmer's. Over decoys, our shots are in the 20-30 yd. range, and an ounce of #2 Nice Shot over 3 drams of FFg drops geese with alacrity. My gun is a modern 12ga. Pedersoli and will take stiffer loads than that, but that relatively light load is a fine killer, so why bother? It is lightly choked according to the mic's, but I confess to never having patterned it. (My bad, I know.)

A simple trick we use is to put one decoy at a measured 30 yards out, and don't take any shots past that with the ML'ers and sub-gauges (and rarely need to with 'modern' guns too).

Thank goodness we aren't limited to steel shot here. I like Nice Shot for its proximity to lead, and have used it exclusively (even though it is pricey) since it came out a few years ago. I use it in my 'modern' guns exclusively, too. Bismuth was my old favorite until I discovered Nice Shot. If it weren't for that and we had to use steel, the marker decoy would be moved a lot closer to the blind.

[KCSO]

Starmac I have a double Navy arms 12 bore choked i/c and mod on swapping and selling.

[DIRT Farmer]

KCSO check the markings, some of the Navy guns were Pedersoli, very good guns. Navy also made the turkey special in full and full. I have two of the Pedersoli tens one sold by Dixie that is basicly cylinder and light modified and a Cabals sold gun with the screw in choke tubes. Even with the full choke tubes in I can get equal patterns by playing with loads and not have the hassel of damaging the wads when loading.
I have shot steel shot using modern wads in the choke tube gun using a wad under the plastic wad with indifferent results. # 2 steel was marginal on penetration (tin can test) and patterns were so-so.
I currently have #5 and #2 bismuth have killed ducks and geese with both but you had better be on the gooses head with #5s. I will get some nice shot when I order next as I have heard good things about the results of the "Classic Doubles" shells that are avatible.
KOSO, I don't know your state regulations but any shot that the USFW consider non toxic is allowed and as bad as I hate to admit it either my shooting is better or some of them are better than lead even if they are pricy.

[FL-Flinter]

What's wrong with a SxS flintlock? If you plan on running steel shot use a shot sleeve and load by volume not mass.
Mark

[KCSO]

The problem with steel in a flinter is that there isn't enough weight and the velocity doesn't come up to snuff. I also do not like cleaning plastic and B/P fouling mix out of the guns, and steel HAS to have steel wads. All in all steel shot is a joke.

[KCSO]

Yes it's a Pedersoli.

[FL-Flinter]

The problem with steel in a flinter is that there isn't enough weight and the velocity doesn't come up to snuff. I also do not like cleaning plastic and B/P fouling mix out of the guns, and steel HAS to have steel wads. All in all steel shot is a joke.

The plastic wads are the problem, not enough friction until the bore gets fouled making it erratic so it'll never pattern worth a hoot. Ditch the plastic, use a couple tight fitting 1/8" or a 1/4" nitro card, 1/2" fiber and a heavy wrapped/pressed paper sleeve to keep the pellets from riding the bore and top with an 0.025" OS (good practice to double the OS wads in a SxS & check the unfired bbl to make sure the load stays put or add OS wads as necessary). Use the same volume measures for shot & powder as your best lead load with the same diameter pellets, often the pattern will be the same or close to it but at a slightly lesser range - if not tweak the powder up a little or the shot down a little if you're already max'ed on powder charge.

Do NOT use steel in any gun that isn't specifically rated for steel shot use.