38 Special target load

[Ron]

Hi, I have a CBE mould for a 125 grn T/C boolit which I have been using in my Glock 34 with some success. I am now looking for a good target load, using this boolit for my 38 Special. I will be using it in ICORE and PPC. I would appreciate any recomendations. Just one thing, I only have W231 to work with. TIA.

[9.3X62AL]

Start loads for target velocities is 3.0 grains of WW-231. This is the load Little Sister used in PPC work with Hornady HBWC's in her Model 10 with truck axle barrel to whip my aspirations with. I don't do wadcutters any more, but 3.5-4.0 grains of 231 does VERY well with Lyman #358429 (Keith 163 grain SWC) in the Colt OMT.

WW-231 is by some distance my favorite 38 Special target and standard velocity powder.

[Dale53]

Al;
This is getting scary (your and my preferences seem to coincide - maybe a long lost twin brother?).

I settled on 231 as my target load powder (and full loads in the .45 ACP) some years ago. It measures well and is a tad slower (and cleaner, if that is an issue) than Bullseye which seems to make it a bit more versatile. I especially like its behavior in the powder measure.

Right now, I am running 4.5 grs behind a 191 gr SWC (the Saeco #68) .452 in my 45 ACP 625-8 (target load). It shoots EXTREMELY well. I also use it in my .32 H&R revolvers and my .38 Specials...

Dale53

[NVcurmudgeon]

I changed to WW 231 for .45 ACP target loads years ago because of its cleanliness. My load of 4.2 gr.with the ubiquitous H&G #68 is very accurate in my Gold Gup, confirmed by one of the two really good shots on the Geezer Pistol Team at my former club. (Neither of those guys was me.) You guys know 231 is the same as Hodgon HP-38 in a different package? (Source: Propellant Profiles in an old Handloader magazine.)

[felix]

HP-38 was manufactured in Scotland, 231 is manufactured in Florida. Same powder exactly? No way. Same speed? Yes, within proverbial lot variation specs. Same accelleration curve? Yes, close enough for targeted powder application intentions. ... felix

[armoredman]

Hmmm, does 231 meter well? I have this pound of 700X that is driving me nuts, impossible to meter in either the Uniflow or the PPM.

[AlaskaMike]

231 meters wonderfully in my Uniflow.

Mike

[9.3X62AL]

231 meters great for me, too.

Dale--45 ACP, 38 Special, 32 Long and Magnum......we're cousins, at minimum.

[ebner glocken]

231 meters great through my dillion 550B.

[Dale53]

Win 231 meters well, period. Great powder (and I noticed tonight that I am getting a bit low:( .

Armored Man;
Your mention of metering problems with 700X reminds me of a true story. I had recently run tests on metering of various powders. 700X had a great propensity to "bridge" in various powder measures. This propensity was so great that I quit using it and warned all of my local shooters. A very good friend was shooting with me on our local indoor range. I told him of my findings, he very much disagreed with me stating that he had been using it for some time with absolutely no problems (therefore, I must be out of my mind:roll: ). The VERY next string of fire, he stuck a bullet in his .45. LOL, LOL, LOL!!:-D :-D

It was REALLY funny. You should have been there...

By the way, during my inspection of the powder, I put it under high magnification. Under magnification, the powder flakes had edges like a lace doily. When dropped, they would interleave and "bridge". This gives you much less in one charge and then maybe a charge and a half in the next. Bad business.

It's a shame because 700X burns quite cleanly and is easily ignited. Oh well, thankfully there is Win 231...

Dale53

[S.R.Custom]

HP-38 was manufactured in Scotland, 231 is manufactured in Florida. Same powder exactly? No way. Same speed? Yes, within proverbial lot variation specs. Same accelleration curve? Yes, close enough for targeted powder application intentions. ... felix

According to my trusty reference materials, there is a subtle, but measurable difference in loading density between the two.

[Bret4207]

Figures, I just bought a pound of 700X and the 231 was sitting right next to it.

[Dale53]

Felix;
I had heard for years (from various NON accredited sources) that HP 38 and Win 231 were the same. I NEVER bought that assertion as a simple look through various loading manuals shows quite a difference in loading data from the same source. That told me all that I needed to know (that there IS a difference). I am not slamming either of those. I have never used HP38 simply because I started with Win 238 when I made a powder change from Bullseye. Since 231 worked so well, my search was ended. I have used it for several years with satisfaction.

I am about finished with an 8lb container and will be looking for a few local buddies to go in with me for a 48 lb order (if each takes one 8 lb container, we can split the shipping and hazmat fee six ways). The hazmat fee becomes "small potatoes" when you are able to split it.

Dale53

[felix]

Dale, let us know of your travel plans, if and when you have a trunk full of powder to share. 48 pounds of a popular, standard powder can be distributed with financial safety in mind. ... felix

[redbear705]

Dale ...how far are you from Columbus? I may be interested....JR

[felix]

Bret, nothing wrong with 700X. Treat the speed as you would for BE, and then slowly approach that of RD when you have some pressure room to spare. It is better in the ignition department than 231, and thus can be used more easily in larger rifle cases lowering the SEE probability. Has more nitroglycerin than 231, so the top end is not as smooth as is for 231 in pistol sized cases. ... felix

[Dale53]

redbear705;
I live two hours south of Columbus, Ohio.

Dale53

[Marlin Junky]

231 also turns the .44M into a mild mannered target revolver. With 9 to 10 grains behind 240 to 250 grain boolits it's like a Skeeter Skelton .44Spl. and shoots very well.

MJ

[BD]

Hi Dale,

If you're going for a "group buy" of 8 lb jugs I'd look closely at Graf & Sons. I did a group buy through them a couple of years ago as follows:
Buy at least 4 eight pounders and they cover the hazmat. Four 8 pounders and 10,000 large pistol primers can travel in the same single package under the same hazmat. Total order over $500 and they give you an additional 5% off the total. IIRC they may have covered the shipping as well on the order over $500. It's worth checking into.

At the time I bought Titegroup which worked just as well for me in the .45acp, and it was a little cheaper than 231. I'll buy some again when I finish the HPC-18, (surplus 231) I have on hand.

BD

[JMax]

Hi, I have a CBE mould for a 125 grn T/C boolit which I have been using in my Glock 34 with some success. I am now looking for a good target load, using this boolit for my 38 Special. I will be using it in ICORE and PPC. I would appreciate any recomendations. Just one thing, I only have W231 to work with. TIA.

Ron,
You are going to be in the 4-4.5 Gr of 231 to make power factor for ICORE. With that bullet weight you should keep the same load for PPC shooting especially if you shoot the long course with 24 rounds at 50 yards.

[EMC45]

Had the same problem with 700X. It meters poorly, but burns and shoots nice.

[BD]

At one point I bought 8 lb of surplus 700. This stuff is more like disks than flakes. Little hockey pucks almost. I worked up a great top end load in the .45 acp using 9 grains under a 200 grain BD acp. Shot great and was moving at over 900 fps. The problem was I couldn't get it to meter through my Projector. And the load was particular to charge weight. I tried the hornady measure, an RCBS measure and a borrowed Redding measure. No luck. The only thing that would meter it accurately was the Belding & Mull, and there's no way to use that on the progressive press. After thinking about it for a while I borrowed a Lee measure which uses a sliding plastic disk. That worked, sort of, but the flakes would jam under the disk occasionally. When lee came out with the new "Pro" version of that measure I bought one. The new Lee measure has a rubber gasket under the plastic disk which keeps the flakes out of the crack. This works pretty well and can be rigged up on the progressive press. I just picked a chamber in the disk which threw the charge a little light and drilled it out a bit at a time until I was just under 9 grains. A little polishing brought it right up to spec.
BD

[Dale53]

BD;
I'll keep Graf and Sons in mind. Thanks for the suggestion.

Dale53

[testhop]

Hi, I have a CBE mould for a 125 grn T/C boolit which I have been using in my Glock 34 with some success. I am now looking for a good target load, using this boolit for my 38 Special. I will be using it in ICORE and PPC. I would appreciate any recomendations. Just one thing, I only have W231 to work with. TIA.use 2.5 231 and move up .3gr at a time till you see a good group :Fire: :Fire: or pressure signs iused 2.5 231 with a 148 wadcutter for ppc comp:castmine::Fire: the old load was 2.7 of bulleye
and a 148 gr wc

[Ron]

Help, I've been hijacked! :-D It never ceases to amaze me how easily a question can morph to another subject on this board, it is almost seamless. :drinks:

However, I am sure that it serves some purpose to the benefit of all.

My thanks to DepAl, JMax and Testhop for their load suggestions. It looks like a have a wee bit of load testing ahead of me. I trust that everyone else had fun., I love this board, never a dull minute [smilie=1:

[9.3X62AL]

Freq drift? HERE?? Perish the thought.

[Dale53]

Thread high jacked? I plead guilty, your honor. Please go easy on this old man... (thank goodness I'm among friends:-D .

Honestly, I'll try to do better in the future...

Dale53

[JudgeBAC]

It is the judgment of the court that you be confined in the custody of the cast boolit website for a continuous period of six hours.

[9.3X62AL]

Fair sentence, for sure.

Good thing this wasn't submitted to the Burrito Shoot Rules Committee, who knows what kinda outcome THAT would produce. They're like a wrecking ball on a chess board, to borrow from Vincent Bugliosi.

[Dale53]

My head is bowed in humble acceptance and I want you to know that I am full of remorse (so said Jack the Ripper:-D ).

Dale53

[testhop]

Felix;
I had heard for years (from various NON accredited sources) that HP 38 and Win 231 were the same. I NEVER bought that assertion as a simple look through various loading manuals shows quite a difference in loading data from the same source. That told me all that I needed to know (that there IS a difference). I am not slamming either of those. I have never used HP38 simply because I started with Win 238 when I made a powder change from Bullseye. Since 231 worked so well, my search was ended. I have used it for several years with satisfaction.

I am about finished with an 8lb container and will be looking for a few local buddies to go in with me for a 48 lb order (if each takes one 8 lb container, we can split the shipping and hazmat fee six ways). The hazmat fee becomes "small potatoes" when you are able to split it.

Dale53

hey dale graft&sons pay shipping on all orders
AND haz mat if you order over 32 lbs of powder but the powder must be in stock
i have never had a problem with in stock phone #1 800 531 2666
also on the web graf&sons.com when you figger in the free shiopping and
haz mat the cost ant bad i think 231 8 lbs is 116.79
ask for there free catalog

[Dale53]

testhop;
Thanks for that information. It will be put to good use.

Dale53

[Cracker]

:bigsmyl2:

Tagged for reference

[9.3X62AL]

GREAT signature line, Cracker.

[Cracker]

GREAT signature line, Cracker.

Unfortunatly it is becoming more and more true as each day passes

[felix]

Ron Paul. ... felix

[Uncle R.]

Ron Paul. ... felix

Sorry Felix - Ain't never gonna happen. I wish it would - Lordy I do - but we're way too far gone for that.

Sigh...

Uncle R.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Help, I've been hijacked! :-D It never ceases to amaze me how easily a question can morph to another subject on this board, it is almost seamless. :drinks: [smilie=1:

Ron, of course we are all often hijacked. This board is a conversation among friends. When I get together with friends, especially if it has been a while, I am amazed how many of my long-winded stories never get finished. And I am sure that I step on the other guy's lines, but the fun and fellowship are worth the trip around Robin Hood's barn.

[Ken O]

[QUOTE=Ron;222164]Help, I've been hijacked! :-D It never ceases to amaze me how easily a question can morph to another subject on this board, it is almost seamless. :drinks:

[smilie=1:[/QUOT

LOL! Yep, thats what makes this board great, almost every post gets off-track. What was the question?

[Ron]

The question was ...... oh what the heck, back to the love in!:-D

[MtGun44]

W231 is exactly the same powder as HP-38.

Bill

[Dale53]

MtGun44;
Apparently, they were made in two different countries in the beginning. They were similar but many of the somewhat older reloading manuals show quite a difference in charge weight.

I have been told (unverified) that now they ARE the same powders (Hodgdon now has a corner on nearly all of the powders out there and it would make sense to standardize where possible).

At any rate, both are good powders in their class and both measure well (that is what I understand as I have only used 231 and that in some quantity).

Dale53

[MtGun44]

Don't know about the past, but I got it direct from
Hodgdon that HP-38 and W231 are exactly the same
powder.

Also, W571 = HS-7
W540 = HS-6

Several more of the Win rifle powders were also marketed
by Hodgdon, like W748 and W760. I need to check my
notes, but I think that H414 is W748, but don't quote
me on that one. The pistol powders are certain, tho.

If you want, I can ask if they were ever different, I have
good contacts at Hodgdon.

Bill

[Cayoot]

WOW that's good info...
I wonder if there is any place where we can get a conversion chart showing what powders are the same under different names?

[felix]

Not W748, because H414 = W760, except for lot differences. W748 is unlike any "H" powders that I know of. ... felix

[Scrounger]

I always thought WW748 was quite similar to H335.

[felix]

True, Art, but all the 748 actuals I have used are all positively slower than the various BLC2s and H335s that I have used. This is just a head's up for the lurkers. This is not saying that a tank full of powder freshly made cannot fit into one of these designations. For sure, you can treat a marked container of fresh 748 to be slower than these others mentioned, including WC844-846 which are/were the typical sources of the two "H" powders. ... felix

[richbug]

On the 231 VS Hp-38...

I bought a big keg of W231(70#?) last summer to share with friends, the W231 sticker was on top of a HP-38 sticker.

[Scrounger]

I have never used 748 and I have used H335 only in .223, but in looking over loading data for both powders in other applications, I noticed they seemed to have about the same burning rate. But among the several people/companies who published loading data for both powders, there seemed to be a lot of disagreement as to what the maximum load was in several calibers. This may have been a reflection of the different philosophies of the individual or perhaps from different lots of powder. But the result was that I was never secure in using H335 except in .223 which used a full case (27 grains), worked good, was cheap (at the time)(8 pounds in a garbage bag in a box from Hodgdon for $20), and I've never used WW748 at all.

[felix]

Goes to prove the these two powders can be exactly from the same lot but with different "retail" labels. For sure, "prime" canned string beans means just that without regard to any label. However, if a grocery store calls up the distributor for green beans, the order taker will ask for what grade and for what label. If the grocer says he wants the DelMonte label, well, that implication is for prime and only prime goods. The distributor will then remit proper payment to DelMonte. Other "brands" have different grade restrictions. The warehouse can deliver a higher grade than paid for, depending on retirement date. All goods after retirement are sold to farmers for feeding pigs. Also, if a case of number 7 cans comes into the warehouse, and only one can is bent by either handling or contamination, the entire case cannot be sold. The folks in the warehouse usually take some of that home with them, but 99 percent of all "reject" goes to the hogs. I worked as a computer consultant to a large operation in KC and obtained these salient facts. Yes, the warehouses get surprise visits from the feds every once in a while. ... felix

As an addendum, the canning operations always pack by the case. The case is marked to what is inside of the case. The cans within the case have no labels. This does not imply that ALL canned goods are done this way. There are some Wisconsin cherry factories that label their cans, but it is apparent these goods seldom reach the general purpose warehouses throughout the country. The general purpose warehouses do the labeling based upon retail demand. This info is good to know because, like gunpowder, if you get a can of beans from Kroger with the Kroger brand and you like what is inside, rush back quickly to get the entire case. Look on the label for tell-tale signs BEFORE you purchase any one can so you can repeat the buy. One good way is to look at the retirement date. If the brand is the same as last time, and the retirement is the same, the odds are good you are getting the very same contents. ... felix