Winchester Serial Number Opinions

[birch]

I recently bought a really nice (maybe) pre-1898 Winchester 94--30wcf sporting rifle. I have heard that there was a lapse in actual serial numbers before I bought the rifle, but since I started researching my rifle, I am basically convinced that George Madis serial number chart is very incorrect. It appears that the Buffalo Bill Firearms Museum has the actual polishing room records that state that my 1897 winchester is actually a 1901.

I am just wondering if others have made up their minds either way. I am also wondering when this clears itself out. For example, I have a 1951 Model 70. Is my model 70 actually made in 1951, or is it early or late. It appears that the ATF follows the George Madis information.

On a side note, I fired the ol' girl for the first time this evening using factory ammunition, and I kept 4 shots in one ragged hole @ 25 yards bench rested. Even if it in not an antique, I was still amazed and honored to have such a nice piece of history. I plan on using some light 10gr Unique loads under some 150 boolits for the rest of its life, but I did want to see how factory ammunition left the barrel.

Thanks for any and all opinions.

[fouronesix]

Wouldn't have a clue as to which system ATF uses??

There is a possibility that both Madis and Cody references are "correct" in a way. It was common for groups of parts such as receivers with serial numbers to be stockpiled in bins awaiting orders or for other operations to catch up. So it's very conceivable for mixed dates of production or manufacture- a hypothetical example could be: to have a serialed receiver made in 1896 sitting in a bin. Then when an order is filled or production catches up when barrels and other parts are ready for assembly, it could be 1897. So a 1896 serialed receiver is mated with a barrel made in 1897 and finally shipped out of the warehouse in 1898.

Not written in stone, but some possibilities I can see when looking at records of dates of manufacture.

[birch]

I am looking at the gun blue book and it says that anything under serial number 142,000 is considered antique. So, if you were me, would you consider a gun inside that number a true antique. I am only wondering because I cannot stop thinking about a gun unless all my questions about it can be put to rest. Also, there is a difference of a couple of thousand dollars between the two rifles. Although I never plan on selling my guns, it is always nice to know a general idea of perceived value.

[fouronesix]

Don't know but it seems that the $ premium is based on the ATF FFL transfer exemption cut off date of 1898 and not so much on other classic definitions like 100 years old. Even though I think the ATF 1898 rule used the 100 year old standard when enacted in 1998.

On any particular gun, I think I would go with the serial date/date of manufacture as listed by a common, widely distributed source like the Blue Book. That would seem to be legally prudent in the eyes of the ATF.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Never worked at Winchester but I can see receivers , some, getting placed in the back of the rack and stay there as other new ones got placed into open slots. I seriously dought workers cared much about keeping numbers in order and being concerned #147684 got moved along within a week of being loaded into a rack. Back in those days there was little concern about gun serial number registration in our government. Buisnesses were faced with production and shipment to distributors. If Bill's Hardware wanted 20 carbines, 44WCF then 20 finished carbines got pulled of the finished assembly rack and cased. If the rack held 30 carbines then eventually 20 new carbines filled the open slots. I can easily see a couple carbines sitting in the racks long ago moved out of order of production. New ones filled in and getting shipped long before that last pair or even one finally went out.
I worked for several months in shipping at Voice of Music in Benton Harbor, Mich. I got handed a list of certain models to place on a conveor. If I needed 10 Model 12's I pulled 10 off that pallet. If there was one M12 left over it got placed on top of the next pallet of M12's. If the next order was one M12 then that M12 went.. but if the order was 6 then six M12's from the same pallet got shipped and that one M12 was still there waiting. It was rare to get an order for one.
Then there was the "custom assembly" of special orders. Again, how long did a certain receiver get placed in a rack, get moved, get looked at, replaced in a rack. Maybe even sent back to general assembly due to a blemish. Then get shuffled about but finally back into a rack several thousand serial numbers out of order. In those early years 25,000 - 30,000 were made yearly. That is 100 a day. Real easy for #147684 to get shuffled about and out of line and assembled finally long after the other receivers made the same day.
But today #147684 brings a 45% premium and #149552.. well it is just to bad and so sad.
Mike in Peru

[10-x]

Heard that the serial numbers from the polishing room records are more accurate??????

[Marvin S]

Just my opinion on it but I see the receiver as the gun reguardless of when it was supposedly assembled or shipped.

[Bad Water Bill]

Our opinions do not matter. The new rookie ATFE agent is the one that WILL put you behind bars.

I wonder what your insurance uses when paying out a claim?

[TXGunNut]

Our opinions do not matter. The new rookie ATFE agent is the one that WILL put you behind bars.

I wonder what your insurance uses when paying out a claim?

Gotta KISS for them, indeed. I can only guess what method the insurance company will use, can only assure you that you'll have to fight to get collector values.
On the serial # topic I've read that Colt revolvers often left the factory years after the frame was made and serialized. Have read similar accounts of early Winchesters, only makes sense. For the ATF, the date the serial number is applied is what matters. Collectors are often more interested in when it was assembled and shipped from the factory. For their purposes, both are correct.

[wv109323]

The American Rifleman has an article on the 1892 Winchester this month. These dates may not be exactly right but the headline of the article says the 1892 was made up to 1932 but the last ones to leave the factory was 1941. Of course the 1894 "replaced" the 1892. After 1894 came to market everyone would opt for the latest and greatest, thus leaving the 1892's on the shelf. I am sure that there was no "stock rotation" of the factory inventory so serial numbers did not leave the factory in sequence.

[Marvin S]

How did the 94 replace the 92, they are a total different family. The 55 and 64 are siblings of the 94 and the 53 is a sibling of the 92.

[Bad Water Bill]

How did the 94 replace the 92, they are a total different family. The 55 and 64 are siblings of the 94 and the 53 is a sibling of the 92.

Simple

Because Winchester said it did.:kidding: