Beware third generation shooters supply!

[Olevern]

About a week ago I posted that I had found a source of in-stock powder and placed an order for seven pounds of assorted powders.

This vendor provided me a order number along with a notice that I could use that number after 24 hours to track the shippment via ups.

They also immediately charged my debit card for $180.00.

Last evening, a week later, I got an email stating that they were sorry, but "due to unusually large volumes" of sales, the H-380, the WW-231 and the IMR-4198 were sold out.

Excuse me?, it showed "in stock" when you accepted my order, I paid for it so that makes it mine, then you basically sold the same product in your "brick and morter store" to another customer?

The only part of the whole order they said was in stock yesterday when they finally contacted me was three pounds of IMR-7828, which they informed me they were shipping that same day.

So now, I get to pay for three different kinds of powder for who knows how long (when they contacted me they had not reversed the charge to my account) AND divide the $27.50 has mat fee over only three pounds (and one kind) of powder instead of seven pounds and four kinds of powder I needed.

I copy below the emails between the owner and myself, in which he attempts to blame everybody and everything else for his actions and states he is trying to make it right but if he has made any offer to make it right I must have missed that part.


Third Generation Shooting Supply Co. Unfortunately, due to the large volume of orders we are currently experiencin...
Apr 23 (1 day ago)


Unfortunately, due to the large volume of orders we are currently experiencin...


Third Generation Shooting Supply Co. <3rdgss@gmail.com>
Apr 23 (1 day ago)




to me



Unfortunately, due to the large volume of orders we are currently experiencing we have sold out of the Winchester 231 and IMR 4198 powder and I do not know when we can get more. I apologize for this inconvenience and we will ship the remainder of your order today. If you have any questions you can reach me at this email address.

Thank you,

Adam Roberts
Third Generation Shooting Supply Co.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(2nd email)


3:26 PM (21 hours ago)




to me



Unfortunately, due to the large volume of orders we are currently experiencing we have sold out of the Hodgdon H380 powder and I do not know when we can get more. I apologize for this inconvenience and we will ship the remainder of your order today. If you have any questions you can reach me at this email address.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


(my first response)


6:40 PM (17 hours ago)




to Third



you showed it in stock when I ordered; you billed my credit card for the whole order; then a week later I'm told it has been sold? I find your business practices lacking in integrity.

I would never have placed an order had I not found a number of powders I could use, in order to distribute the powder shipping surcharge of $27.50 over a number of pounds of powder. The fewer pounds of powder ordered, the more each pound costs me because of the surcharge.

So, let us recap; you sold me (and charged me for) powder you didn't have, then shipped a partial order which cost me more than I agreed to pay, and didn't even give me the option of cancelling the partial order, shipping the order simultaneously with emailing me of the unavailability of half my order.

Worked out pretty good for you (you sold stock), not so good for me (I paid more than I agreed and didn't get powder your site said was in stock and reserved for me)

Once again, no integrity.

I will post my experience on the several shooting/reloading forums I am active on.

also, my bank balance still shows minus the whole amount, so now fraud in addition to dishonesty?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




10:19 AM (2 hours ago)




to me



Vernon,
I do apologize for the inconvenience but we have never experienced the volume of sales we have been getting. Unfortunately we have had a few hiccups here and there but are doing our best to straighten them out make things as right as we can.

You still have the option of cancelling the order but instead you chose to jump to false conclusions and call us names which I do not appreciate. We are doing the best we can with the madness that has been 2013 and while we apologize for the problems would appreciate a little patience and understanding on the part of our customers as well. I can assure you that no one here is trying to be dishonest with you or "get to you" in any way. We are simply trying to make right what has gone wrong.

If you would like to cancel the order please let me know and I will get it taken care of.



(Wait a minute, you said yesterday you were shipping the order yesterday, you mean you didn't)

--
Thanks,
B.J. Bailey
Third Generation Shooting Supply
PO Box 38
2003 Shepard
El Reno, OK 73036
800-522-3314 work
405-229-0942 cell

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


11:58 AM (42 minutes ago)




to me



It is not dishonest because at the time we did have the powder. We are normally very fast at shipping orders and thus charge the cards as soon as we get the orders. At most we have had a few days delay in shipping in the past. The shear volume of orders we received clogged up our UPS hub and we could not get the powder out. In the mean time, customers were walking into our brick and mortar store buying powder. We did not realize that we were moving as much volume out the front door until it was too late and some of the powder sold online that was waiting to be pulled and shipped was sold.
Again I apologize for the trouble but can assure that there is no devious plan or dishonesty on our part. Simply an oversight and we are doing our best to make sure it doesn't happen again

[Case Stuffer]

I have only ordered from them once a little over a months ago a received the 8 one pound cans of WW-231 in less than a week.


8 WIN2311LB WIN 231 1 LB POWDER $20.69 $165.52
Unit: Each

Subtotal: $165.52
Shipping: $27.95
----------
Order Total: $193.47


With the current high sells volume I can how real time inventory is not always really real time . Not saying you do not have the right to be upset but they have had many satified customers in the past.

[Olevern]

I have only ordered from them once a little over a months ago a received the 8 one pound cans of WW-231 in less than a week.


8 WIN2311LB WIN 231 1 LB POWDER $20.69 $165.52
Unit: Each

Subtotal: $165.52
Shipping: $27.95
----------
Order Total: $193.47


With the current high sells volume I can how real time inventory is not always really real time . Not saying you do not have the right to be upset but they have had many satified customers in the past.

How can you defend leaving paid-for product on the shelves of your store for a week while it walks out the store through your registers? You call this defensible?

[BLTsandwedge]

The note addressed to Vernon stating "....instead you chose to jump to false conclusions...." is just flat-out unbelievable. Olvern, if I were you I'd send an email to your CC company immediately, disputing the charges and copying "BJ." In that same email I'd tell "B.J." to cancel the order. You aren't going to get anything out of these fools for a while- they've no automated inventory system! If they can't tell, in real time, how much they sold, they have no way to pull out-of-stock product off their internet point-of-sale system. They could have been taking orders for W231 and 4198 FOR DAYS before they learned they were out- meaning you have no idea how backloged your order really is!!!!

"B.J." is guilty of being a rotten CSR. The company shoud not be selling on the net without the proper software. It was a mistake. But not being ready to do business -making promises they can't keep- is negligent. Please let us know if you have to fight to get your CC charges reversed.....or however this turns out. Negligent business practices grind my butt to a nub.

[David2011]

I've had nothing but positive experiences with Third Generation. I don't blame you for being unhappy but it sounds like they made a careless but honest mistake. Maybe if you lighten up on the criticism they might work a deal to make you happy in the long run. Have you tried asking nicely how they will resolve the shipping charge issue?

My two cents,
David

[Hamish]

Blaming you for their screw up is unacceptable.

[Olevern]

I've had nothing but positive experiences with Third Generation. I don't blame you for being unhappy but it sounds like they made a careless but honest mistake. Maybe if you lighten up on the criticism they might work a deal to make you happy in the long run. Have you tried asking nicely how they will resolve the shipping charge issue?

My two cents,
David

I think I made it plenty clear what my issues were to the owner in my email (including the distribution of the surcharge among multiple units of powder)
Owner states they are trying to "make it right", but again I don't see where.

As for begging for concessions....not me.

Offering something to make me whole, or, as the business owner states "make it right" is their place; I have expressed my opinion of this transaction; the "making it right" part is up to them and, up to this point I have heard nothing but lip-service to the concept of making it right.

Also, I would have a hard time believing anything they say; When they emailed me about their "mistake" they informed me they were mailing out the remainder of my order that day, then the next day they offered to cancel my order.

[41 mag fan]

They should of notified you first of the mistake, and offered to either send the powder they did have or to refund your CC fully if you wished to cancel. Then if you wanted the powder they had in stock, they could of sent out what they had.

[462]

Sad to say, I had a similar experience. I placed an on-line order for 10, one-pound cans of two different powders (they have a 10 unit of one-pound cans, or two units of four-pounders, or one eight-pounder per order, thus the multiple one-pound order), and was given an order number. A week later, my debit card was charged, but the order number couldn't be tracked. I e-mailed them, and was told that they were experiencing a two week delay, due to an unexpected powder sales volume. A few days later, I e-mailed, again, requesting an update, and was given the same response, except to say that they had sold out of one of the powders (IMR 4198). Out of frustration, yesterday, I phoned and spoke to Adam. He said that the order had been processed and that my debit card would be credited for the difference. As of a few minutes, the credit hasn't posted.

So, as with Olevern's situation, I bought an item that showed as being in stock, they kept my money for a week before shipping, and I end up paying more per pound than originally calculated. If I didn't need the available powder, I would have cancelled the entire order. In today's market place, there is no excuse for a retail business to not have an up to the minute inventory tracking program.

The order is supposed to arrive on the 30th, and it will be my last purchase from them.

[rockrat]

41 mag fan has it right. They should have contacted him about non availibility of powder and given him a change to cancel the order, or proceed with the powder that was in stock.

[bailey1474]

Ok guys. This is B.J. Bailey of 3RDGSS. While I understand that you are upset, I can assure you that there is nothing that we have done that was intentional or meant to be fraudulent. We messed up. I have owned up to that and am not blaming anyone. Unfortunately I have no way to ship the powder you ordered as I am OUT. The only thing we can due is refund your money which we have done. It may take a day or two for it to go through but it has been done. You are not alone as this has happened on quite of few of the orders around this time.

I feel I was respectful in my return emails and was not granted that same respect back. There are many places you can do business and we appreciate you choosing us. I truly am sorry that this happened and if you choose to go elsewhere that is your choice. As hard as we try we simply cannot make everyone happy but I feel that we do a great job and believe that we have many many more satisfied customers than unhappy ones.

No one is going to be as hard on us as we are ourselves. It is absolutely killing me that this happened but there is nothing I can do to fix it other than apologize and refund your money. We now have it worked out with our shippers so this WILL NOT happen again on this large of a scale. I can't say it won't happen as we are only human and make mistakes but we are taking every step we can to prevent it.


Thanks,
B.J. Bailey
Third Generation Shooting Supply

[L1A1Rocker]

I think I made it plenty clear what my issues were to the owner in my email (including the distribution of the surcharge among multiple units of powder)
Owner states they are trying to "make it right", but again I don't see where.

As for begging for concessions....not me.

Offering something to make me whole, or, as the business owner states "make it right" is their place; I have expressed my opinion of this transaction; the "making it right" part is up to them and, up to this point I have heard nothing but lip-service to the concept of making it right.

Also, I would have a hard time believing anything they say; When they emailed me about their "mistake" they informed me they were mailing out the remainder of my order that day, then the next day they offered to cancel my order.

They screwed up in making assumptions (was it on purpose? don't know) about sending out a partial order. The problem is the extra shipping and hazmat you get stuck with. If the really want to "make it right" they will absorb the cost of extra shipping and hazmat.

Something you could try. When you get the rest of your order contest the additional fees on your credit card as unauthorized. You may end up getting what you paid for afterall.

[WILCO]

Ok guys. This is B.J. Bailey of 3RDGSS. While I understand that you are upset, I can assure you that there is nothing that we have done that was intentional or meant to be fraudulent. We messed up. I have owned up to that and am not blaming anyone. Unfortunately I have no way to ship the powder you ordered as I am OUT. The only thing we can due is refund your money which we have done. It may take a day or two for it to go through but it has been done. You are not alone as this has happened on quite of few of the orders around this time.

I feel I was respectful in my return emails and was not granted that same respect back. There are many places you can do business and we appreciate you choosing us. I truly am sorry that this happened and if you choose to go elsewhere that is your choice. As hard as we try we simply cannot make everyone happy but I feel that we do a great job and believe that we have many many more satisfied customers than unhappy ones.

No one is going to be as hard on us as we are ourselves. It is absolutely killing me that this happened but there is nothing I can do to fix it other than apologize and refund your money. We now have it worked out with our shippers so this WILL NOT happen again on this large of a scale. I can't say it won't happen as we are only human and make mistakes but we are taking every step we can to prevent it.


Thanks,
B.J. Bailey
Third Generation Shooting Supply

Little rough around the edges, but the proper result is the same. Vote with your wallet. I always do.

[L1A1Rocker]

Ok guys. This is B.J. Bailey of 3RDGSS. While I understand that you are upset, I can assure you that there is nothing that we have done that was intentional or meant to be fraudulent. We messed up. I have owned up to that and am not blaming anyone. Unfortunately I have no way to ship the powder you ordered as I am OUT. The only thing we can due is refund your money which we have done. It may take a day or two for it to go through but it has been done. You are not alone as this has happened on quite of few of the orders around this time.

I feel I was respectful in my return emails and was not granted that same respect back. There are many places you can do business and we appreciate you choosing us. I truly am sorry that this happened and if you choose to go elsewhere that is your choice. As hard as we try we simply cannot make everyone happy but I feel that we do a great job and believe that we have many many more satisfied customers than unhappy ones.

No one is going to be as hard on us as we are ourselves. It is absolutely killing me that this happened but there is nothing I can do to fix it other than apologize and refund your money. We now have it worked out with our shippers so this WILL NOT happen again on this large of a scale. I can't say it won't happen as we are only human and make mistakes but we are taking every step we can to prevent it.


Thanks,
B.J. Bailey
Third Generation Shooting Supply

Mr. Bailey, you've fessed up to making the mistake but you did not stand up to "make it right". Do to your screw up a person took a financial hit. That financial hit is your responsibility, not his. If you truly want to "make it right" you need to fill the order at the agreed price and absorb the cost of the additional shipping and hazmat fees. THAT is how you "make this right"; not with words, but with deeds.

[Kraschenbirn]

Definitely scratched off my vendor list and info passed to new reloaders I've been mentoring.

Bill

[bailey1474]

Mr. Bailey, you've fessed up to making the mistake but you did not stand up to "make it right". Do to your screw up a person took a financial hit. That financial hit is your responsibility, not his. If you truly want to "make it right" you need to fill the order at the agreed price and absorb the cost of the additional shipping and hazmat fees. THAT is how you "make this right"; not with words, but with deeds.


It is as right as I can make. His order has been cancelled and his cc fully refunded. He is out NO MONEY at all. I would love to fill his entire order but do not have the powder to do it.

[Pat I.]

Can't speak for your problem but I ordered a TC Omega from them last year and it was not only the cheapest price I found but it shipped fast. Wouldn't think twice about ordering from them again.

[doctorggg]

"You are not alone as this has happened on quite of few of the orders around this time."

That is not a statement I would have wanted to admit to. It shows incompetence on your behalf. Screwing up on one or two orders is understandable. Quite a few - not so much!

[Love Life]

**** happens. It is a crazy time in the reloading world right now. They did not intentionally screw somebody over, but this could have been avoided.

Would I order powder from 3rd gen in the next month or so? No.
Will I order from them when things calm down? Yes.

At this time I order everything from MidwayUSA and Natchez because they are magic and have solved the Masonic riddle that allows them to be able to ship within a couple days instead of a blanket "3-8 weeks" everybody else has thrown out.

My opinion is free.

[texassako]

Others are having similar issues on the other thread: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?195668-The-Hodgdon-powder-is-in-my-peeps . My issue was self inflicted(darned fat fingers), but not handled well by them either. I think they may have bit off a bit more business than they were prepared for. I had great service getting some primers a few months ago. I have a long background in the very customer oriented auto industry, and it is very hard to get the word out about good service where as a bad experience can haunt your business for a long time.

[cbrick]

I have an order there for 5 one pound cans of H-110. They charged my card on the day of the order and one week later their tracking info says that a shipping label has been created. UPS says they have been notified electronically of the shipping label and created their own tracking number and will update tracking info once they have the package. That's all the tracking info available as of right now so I assume that the order has been sitting in their shipping dept for 1 1/2 days waiting for UPS to pick it up.

Rick

[Jim]

Mr. Bailey, Sir,

Honestly, I do not feel any motivation to put a link to your business in my favorites list. This is one minor, irritating incident to a vendor that deals with hundreds of orders a week. But to retired gentlemen on limited incomes like myself and Ol'vern and many others here, this is a major issue.

Nobody expects you to get it right every time, all the time. But we DO expect you to deal with it as if we're spending thousands of dollars a week with your business. If your handling of a problem and your response to such is comensurate with the amount of money we spend, you may find yourself making a lot less of it.

Having seen the email responses from yourself to my friend and now your posts here on our forum, you may rest assured I will not keep you from your busy schedule by placing an order and taking up your valuable time.

With all due respect,
Jim Connor
Floyd, VA

[oldred]

Most folks don't want to pay the not so insignificant hazmat fees plus shipping on a small order of powder, taking orders for larger amounts and expecting the customer to accept the short order is not good business. Charging a credit card for powder that's not in stock and may not be for weeks is a mistake that simply should not be made especially when by the owner's admission "You are not alone as this has happened on quite of few of the orders around this time", once or even twice might be excusable but this sounds suspiciously like a good way to sell small orders of powder! Definitely going to scratch them off also.

[runfiverun]

don't take the haz-mat thing as a money maker for the seller they have to pay it on each shipment and pass that charge on to the customer.
they pay it for each shipment just like you the customer does.


another case of communication breakdown is how I see the situation.

[cbrick]

An update: Looks like UPS finally went over there and picked it up. UPS tracking says . . .

Last Location:
Oklahoma City, OK, US, Wednesday, 04/24/2013

I think 3rd Generation is just outside Oklahoma City, they said I would have it by Friday so it seems no problem with my order. If I get it on Friday it will have been 9 days from placing the order and having it in hand. An "in stock" order from Powder Valley took 6 1/2 weeks.

Rick

[Randy C]

I see both sides of the story I have ordered several thousand dollars of reloading supply's from midway and part of that order has been back ordered 2 mounts past what they told me I'm paying 3 times the shipping I don't like it but I know Midway and I am paying the difference. I ordered a Mag 25 Lyman furnace from optics planet this order looks like it might take a couple extra months caused buy Lyman, and I ordered a Walnut hill press from RCE I know it will come when he has time to make mine along with everybody else. It sucks trying to buy during this crazy time. I also have 10 lbs. of powder ordered from Midway they said 16 weeks it has been 8 I hope they don't add to this order. STM did send my tumbler on time.

[oldred]

don't take the haz-mat thing as a money maker for the seller they have to pay it on each shipment and pass that charge on to the customer.
they pay it for each shipment just like you the customer does.


No one said they made anything on it just that spreading it over smaller orders can make the per-pound costs more than some folks are willing to pay. As in the OP's case they were going to ship a partial order which made the costs per pound more than he expected and he said that he (like a lot of others) would never have made the order in the first place had he known the order would have incurred such high shipping in proportion to such a small amount of powder, it had nothing to do with who the shipping/hazmat charges went to.

[jmort]

I'm not a customer, but I'll just say +1 to what Mr. Love Life said.

[462]

Though it's not the way I would have handled the situation -- spent 35-years in retail sales, most of them commissioned -- I was willing to spread the shipping and Haz-Mat costs over six cans, rather than ten, as I wanted them.

However, two things bother me:
1. My card was charged long before the original order was filled. It should not have been charged till the the items were pulled, boxed, and a shipping label generated. They used my money for a week, and, now, I have to wait an unknown number of days for a credit to show up.
2. The four cans of IMR 4198 should have been taken out of their inventory and set aside for my order when they issued an order number. Instead, at some later time, they sold it to someone else and left me hanging.

I'm sure that Mr. Bailey means well, having got caught up in a very unusual selling situation, but I feel that his customer service is somewhat lacking -- a credit for the difference in the shipping and Haz-Mat fees between a ten and six can order would not be asking too much. And, he needs to take care of customers in the order in which they come into his business, whether it be on-line or in-store. If I place an on-line order on a Monday, say, it should take preference over a Tuesday walk-in customer. In this instance, he reniged on his promise to sell me the items that appeared on the invoice he generated.

In my previous post, I mentioned that this will be the last time I do business with them. But, I've decided to let this play out to the end -- credit issuance and order arrival -- before I make a final determination.

I hope Mr. Bailey follows this thread to its conclusion, and does whatever is necessary to keep his customers' satisfaction first and foremost.

On a final note:
Last week, I received a Midway order, and one of the items was damaged. Today, a new one arrived. No questions asked, no mention of returning the damaged item. Nothing but continued outstanding customer service.

[bailey1474]

I am not sure why the partial shipment and money keep being mentioned. As I said, he wasn't shipped anything and ALL his money was refunded. Bottom line is I feel we are doing things right and that is the best I can do. We are refunding people if they choose to cancel their orders. I was up there shipping powder till 11:00 pm last night trying to get it all done. If our efforts aren't good enough for anyone, they have the right to shop elsewhere. Again I apologize for the inconvenience to all of the effected people. This will be my last post gentlemen. Take care.

[Chihuahua Floyd]

I am not sure why the partial shipment and money keep being mentioned. As I said, he wasn't shipped anything and ALL his money was refunded. Bottom line is I feel we are doing things right and that is the best I can do. We are refunding people if they choose to cancel their orders. I was up there shipping powder till 11:00 pm last night trying to get it all done. If our efforts aren't good enough for anyone, they have the right to shop elsewhere. Again I apologize for the inconvenience to all of the effected people. This will be my last post gentlemen. Take care.

Sir,
If you continue to follow this thread, the continued discussion about shipping cost is due to your first email where you said you where shipping a partial order with the rest to follow and did not mention full refund until the above post.
The only thing people here hate more than haz-mat shipping fees is threats to the 2nd amendment.
I truly hope you can get a handle on inventory and shipping soon.
CF

[runfiverun]

red
I agree on the haz mat and shipping thing.
I have skipped orders because I couldn't justify tacking on another 25 dollars and shipping.
quite often I can justify it and sometimes I can just get it at the shop next time I drive the 180 miles one way to get it.


it sux we have to go through all these gyrations and phone calls and get out the calculator and read the fine print and calculate shipping just to buy enough powder/primers to make it through the summer.

[oldred]

Mr Baily the problem seems to be quite clear, an item is marked as "in stock" so it is sold to an online customer who obviously would not be buying if it was known to out of stock, the moment the deal is closed and the customer's card is charged that item BELONGS TO THAT CUSTOMER! You have no right to sell it later to a walk in customer and then leave the online customer hanging, he/she then either has to cancel their entire order or incur much higher costs in shipping per-pound of powder because you choose to sell THEIR powder to someone else after they have already paid for it. If you can't see the problem with that then you have a very poor understanding of what's fair.

[Olevern]

I am not sure why the partial shipment and money keep being mentioned. As I said, he wasn't shipped anything and ALL his money was refunded. Bottom line is I feel we are doing things right and that is the best I can do. We are refunding people if they choose to cancel their orders. I was up there shipping powder till 11:00 pm last night trying to get it all done. If our efforts aren't good enough for anyone, they have the right to shop elsewhere. Again I apologize for the inconvenience to all of the effected people. This will be my last post gentlemen. Take care.

If you don't get it by now, you will never get it.

1.) You charged my bank account and kept my money for a week before you notified me there was a problem.

2.) You minimized the problem, characterizing it as "a few minor hiccups here and there"

3.) You emailed me, in two separate emails, that first two, then a third powder was not available, even though it had been a week since the product should have been pulled from the shelves to cover my paid for order.

4.) You assumed that I would be o.k. with you shipping me a partial order as you emailed me that you were sending out the partial order on the same date you notified me my powder had been sold.

5.) And, apparently, even that was a lie, as the next day you offered me the option of cancelling the partial order (how does that work when you said it would be shipped the day before?
How can you cancel an order which has already shipped?

6.) And, although you state you will refund my money, I am still out the money as it has yet to be applied to my bank and available for my use. So....it appears that I am to be out my money for even a longer period of time, assuming it is refunded at all (see #5 above which does not create in me a great deal of trust.

7.) And, finally, while you repeatedly state you want to "make it right" I am at a loss as to what that means to you as I have not received any communication from you with any offer to mitigate this fiasco. A simple offer to hold the powder you still had in stock until the other powders were again in stock would have been an imperfect solution, but preferable to a "no backorders as we don't know when these powders will be in stock again", particularly in this situation. But that might have meant some extra work and tracking ie: personal service, and when you weigh some inconvenience on your part against making a situation right apparently the customer comes out the loser. I, at least should have been given that option, with charges for the now-unavailable powders refunded until they were in stock.
Then you accuse me of jumping to conclusions and calling you names.
All of our communications are posted above...I was mild compared to what I might have said. I characterized your actions as lacking in integrity....I stand by that characterization and believe that the facts speak for themselves. It is simply not an act of integrity to charge my card and not pull the product for a week, selling merchandise I had paid for and therefore owned to a walk in customer. You may minimize the situation as "a minor hiccup", but it smacks of dishonesty and/or gross incompetence to me.

[462]

Since Mr. Bailey has decided that he wants nothing more to do with us, I retract my previous mention of waiting till I get my credit and order, to determine if I'll continue to do business with him.

'Tis a shame, because a sincere show of empathy and goodwill would have gone a long way toward keeping me and possibly other Cast Boolit members as loyal customers.

[Bad Water Bill]

Can anyone show me any state or federal law on HAZMAT FEES?

Can anyone show me a copy of rates for HAZMAT FEES charged by U P S or FEDEX?

A couple years ago one on line store permitted 5# of powder for 1 fee of $20.00

At the same time Cabelas had a great price on powder. I put in an order for 30# of powder and was charged a single HAZMAT FEE of $20.00.

Now here is why I think the whole HAZMAT thing is a scam from one end to the other.

When the order was confirmed Cabelas said the powder would arrive at different times as it would be coming from THREE different locations. Yes that $20.00 covered the whole order and the whole order arrived as promised.

If FEDEX or U P S was collecting the HAZMAT FEE for each shipment passing thru their hands I am sure they would have demanded $20.00 from the order from Nebraska,Tenn and the third location for a total of $60.00.

Cabelas shipped 30 pounds for a $20.00 fee yet another dealer says he is only allowed to ship 5# for the same fee. He would have demanded $120.00 for shipping the same 30#.

Now I see where many places have raised the fee to $28.00

Yes I have entered a major U P S location and asked "What would be the fee to ship gun powder?

We will put the box on the scale and you pay by the box, the same as any other box.

I got the same answer from FEDEX.

Now please enlighten this OLD MAN about who sets the fee, who collects the fee and what laws demand it?

[tomme boy]

He could have refunded the haz mat. He doesn't get it charged to him when he gets his powder delivered! One of my local dealers has told me over and over again that he does not get charged a haz mat fee for ordering powder. He has no problem ordering just one pound of powder for me from his distributor.

[uscra112]

Haven't looked to see when they charged my card, but my order placed 10/15 was shipped 10/22 according to UPS. Not too bad in today's world. I waited almost 3 weeks for an order to ship from Powder Valley.

[CuZ]

I had a somewhat similar experience with Gamaliel a few weeks back. I got a tip they had some ball rifle powder in stock so I jumped on three eight-pounders. Their system showed in-stock and checkout went without a hitch. I was overjoyed because I had been looking hard for some.[smilie=w: Next day I get a email saying my order has been backordered.
I just called them up and did my best to politely cancel the order. I've been savin all my hate for the people tryin to take our guns away!!!

[popper]

If you are a "stocking" retailer you can keep track of inventory and control over-sales. If you are an 'ordering' retailer, you can get messed up easy. Mixing the business models makes tracking inventory more difficult. Now, having a financial dept working ahead of the shipping dept causes these type problems and many companies, large and small. do this.

[Olevern]

Update:

Checked my bank account this morning and found two credits, one for $59.97 and the other for $19.99.

That, applied against the $181.38 they charged my card, leaves $101.42 unaccounted for, if my math is right.

[garym1a2]

I have had similiar issues with Natchezz and Brownells. What happens is the demand greatly exceeds their capability. Natchezz was the worse, i ordered some of their cheap thermold mags and mag couplers, they shipped the mag couplers and canceled the order for the mags after they had them listed in stock as avaliable. What good is a mag coupler without the mag?
With Brownells they showed the upper in stock when ordered, the next day it showed out of stock. They shipped two weeks later.

The point is many companies inventory list online is not 100%. I think the above listed companies are selling at reasonable prices and as a result have excessive orders to fill. the compaines I refuss to deal with are ones like Cheaoper than Dirt as they kack the prices to unreasonable number.s

[RydForLyf]

I hate to hear about these things, but I did business with 3rdGss a few months back when I was tipped on this site that they had gotten in a bunch of Hodgdon powder. I placed an order for several items they listed as in-stock on their web site and it showed up on my doorstep in about 3 or 4 days. They were great to deal with and the transaction completed without a hitch.

I'm sorry to hear the OP had problems, but I don't feel that experience is indicative of the norm for 3rdGss.

-RFL

[Case Stuffer]

Can anyone show me any state or federal law on HAZMAT FEES?

Can anyone show me a copy of rates for HAZMAT FEES charged by U P S or FEDEX?

I have asked this before and there does not appear to be a fixed amount charged the shipper. Perhaps it depends on their volume of business with the shipper. I have also read different max. number of pounds of power allowed be truck (UPS or FedX).




A couple years ago one on line store permitted 5# of powder for 1 fee of $20.00


The vendor in this thread charges $20 Hazmat and $7.95 flate rate shipping . My post #2 shows these combined for $27.95 total for 8 ea. 1 lb. cans of powder which means an addational $3.50 per pound which I find very reasonable. The powder itself was $165.52 and if I had purchased local sales tax would have been $11. 59 so really only $16.36 addational cost to have it delivered to my door. ,


Seems the real issue here is inventory control / timing including when credit card was charged. Anytime I order any firearms related products these days I do so knowing full well things may no go according to plans. If I were ordering powder or primers these days I would place a note in the comments section too not charge for or ship a parcial order if this would cause addational shipping / hazmat fees or delays on any items I have listed as urgent.

The alternative to backorders is a wait and hope you get lucky. I have been on the Notify when Available list for 6 or more primer types at Midway for over two months and each time I get an email they are allready sold out again. I have read post here where some have by chance checked and found primers in stocked ordered them and received theirs. It seems that Midway list new shipment on thier site when received and they take orders even before they send out the emails to ones on the Notify List. To me this is wrong but I will continue to order from Midway.

[462]

The vendor in this thread charges $20 Hazmat and $7.95 flate rate shipping

Their shipping charge is $7.95, but their Haz-Mat fee has changed. The day before I made my Third Generation purchase, their web-site showed a $20 Haz-Mat fee. The next day, the day I made the purchase, they had increased it to $27.50.

I'll not make any guesses as to why they made the change, but it does show me that their business model needs improvement well beyond just their inventory control, their on-line versus in-store purchases, and their shipping policy.

[sparky45]

Ok guys. This is B.J. Bailey of 3RDGSS. While I understand that you are upset, I can assure you that there is nothing that we have done that was intentional or meant to be fraudulent. We messed up. I have owned up to that and am not blaming anyone. Unfortunately I have no way to ship the powder you ordered as I am OUT. The only thing we can due is refund your money which we have done. It may take a day or two for it to go through but it has been done. You are not alone as this has happened on quite of few of the orders around this time.

I feel I was respectful in my return emails and was not granted that same respect back. There are many places you can do business and we appreciate you choosing us. I truly am sorry that this happened and if you choose to go elsewhere that is your choice. As hard as we try we simply cannot make everyone happy but I feel that we do a great job and believe that we have many many more satisfied customers than unhappy ones.

No one is going to be as hard on us as we are ourselves. It is absolutely killing me that this happened but there is nothing I can do to fix it other than apologize and refund your money. We now have it worked out with our shippers so this WILL NOT happen again on this large of a scale. I can't say it won't happen as we are only human and make mistakes but we are taking every step we can to prevent it.


Thanks,
B.J. Bailey
Third Generation Shooting Supply


Mr. Bailey;
I have never ordered from you before, and that's only half the story. I will never order from your business. If you can't handle simple transactions without this kind of *****, you don't deserve my/our business. Life's to short for this kind of aggravation.

Sparky45

[sparkz]

Well those mail seem a bit sharp to me,, I did own and run a company before I was hurt and forced into retire,, But I would have stated (1) did not intentionally (2) Offer a discount for in house "Like items" (other vendors powders), (3) Offer Like Materials at a discount or wave a fee, (4 ) Offer a discount on next order and full refund now,
But that how we did it, they chose "Other Methods"

It sound like owners sorry but just same, customers Not WHOLE as he waited for Items for some time as Other Shops could had filled his wants and needs
so hes out time and times a biggie with the Obama-O-Rama going on,,

JMO
but not the best fix for customer as I see it
I feel my mathods would had made my customer Happer and a return customer i could make up my loss in long run and by word of mouth he would had spread

Patrick

Note;
whats scary is I had check there stock and was gona "Pull the Triger" and now i am not so warm and fuzzy
they say 76 cans 8# win 769 & 2 cans 8# of PB,,
am so glad i saw this but is that stuff still there?

maybe i gota wait on PV sending powder.........

[oldred]

"Obama-O-Rama" good line there, I like that!


Lost creek ky, is that near Hazard?

[GT1]

I ordered a jug of Unique 7 business days ago, it came today. I bought a jug of HP 38 a couple weeks back before this order(same fast turnaround).
These guys were darn near an unknown secret for the most part up until a month ago, which is why they were still able to get powder out so fast in this panic, but once word got out on The High Road, Firing line, Arfcom, etc, they got hammered, and probably like they never did before.
I'm not going to excuse them for not making things right in a prompt fashion, that is a lesson learned for them I'm sure, or it will be. I will give them a pass on the initial mistakes because I am sure they were overwhelmed once the whole reloading world was clued in to them.
They didn't charge my card right off, it was on the same day a ups receipt was created.

Will I buy from them again, you bet.


(This forum software blows, too bad they took a step backward in the recent 'upgrade'.)

[sparky45]

GT1; I'm sure the admin would love to have your input, especially in the form of a donation to help fix your perceived software problem.

[eljefe]

In my case, I was charged twice...$200 and change on 4/20,
and $144 and change on 4/23. The second charge was a result
of my calling and amending the order after part of my first order
was unobtainium.

I emailed and was replied to by Adam that the credit was executed
by them on 4/23 and that it would be several days for me to get my
money back.

I am just wondering why they didn't simply issue a credit for the
difference instead of charging me a second time.

I appreciate their being busy. I am a gun dealer, and have
experienced a great level of activity in my store. However,
if I sold a customer a gun, and later said that it was not in stock,
I don't think I would stay in business very long.

[plmitch]

I have had nothing but great dealing with 3RDGSS. Excellent prices, customer service and fast shipping. I for one will gladly buy from them again.

[Trigger1]

DO NOT ORDER FROM 3RD GENERATION SHOOTING SUPPLY !!!!!
They are scamming online buyers. I just had the same experiance an got the exact same email yesterday as other who have posted here. I ordered several containers of Power Pistol Powder 10 day ago. At the time of my order the website showed that they had 100's 1 lb containers in stock so I placed my order, got my order number and my cc was charged. The in stock number the website now showed in stock decreased by the number of containers I had ordered. So I fiquired my ordered was pulled from stock and waiting to be shipped. Then I received the I'm sorry email that they are now out of stock. Well they were not out of stock when we placed our orders and they took our money. The scam they are pulling is that they take our orders and our money because I called them up and I was told that they can only ship 100 lbs of powder a day. So what they are doing is taking our orders that WE HAVE ALREADY PAID FOR and waiting to be shipped and selling them over the counter to people that walk in off the street, thier retail customer as they call them. Then they send us the I'm sorry email. They have no respect for thier online customers. They only ship the scraps and left overs, that they can't sell in store, to on line customers. I am going to tell every one I know in the shooting community, every forum and blog not to purchase from 3rd generation shooting supplies. I suggest every one else do the same......

[Olevern]

It is as right as I can make. His order has been cancelled and his cc fully refunded. He is out NO MONEY at all. I would love to fill his entire order but do not have the powder to do it.

Making it right would be putting me at the head of the line to get the powders ordered at the price quoted when they are again available. If need be, putting the powders as they come in on YOUR desk to make sure all are gathered together to be shipped out in one shipment. THATS making it right, not just a "sorry, you're beat, we can do nothing about it"

[smokeywolf]

Wife and I have both run small home-based businesses. You do whatever it takes to keep the customer happy. Occasionally that may result in not realizing a profit on that particular transaction. On the rare occasion when we were unable to ship on the promised date, we have refunded shipping charges, thrown in freebees, included free shipping or substantial discounts on future orders.

smokeywolf

[Bad Water Bill]

When you have MANAGEMENT that understands doing WHATEVER it takes to keep a customer happy businesses grow.

Look at the two greatest companies we HAD in the 1900s. SEARS ROEBUCK & CO and MONTGOMERY WARD and COMPANY.
Until the mid 70s they were great. Enter the BEAN COUNTERS A d Sears had to sell off THE TOWER,ALLSTATE,the paint mfg co and the list is to long to remember.Monkey ward is just a faint memory and Sears is owned by K Mart.

Today it is all about the money.

[VintageRifle]

Looks like this will be another company that dies a google death. Watched 3 die in the least year from similar rantings on another board.

Problems happen, we don't like them, but calling a business a scam or a thief is out of line here.

Call when there is an issue, email always comes off as everyone being pissed off.

Sorry you have an issue with company. Sure hope you aren't here to have them go out of business. These are crazy times. I haven't seen any primers local for 2 months. Powder is scarce for what I use. Don't want to see anyone go out of business because of the crazy that its going on right now.

Call your credit card provider and they will most likely get you a refund. Everyone here seems to have an attitude that if an order gets messed up, give the company hell and make them suffer. Things can get worked out without the parties involved coming off as *******s.

[cf5757]

I did have a good experience with them last week. Ordered powder, came in about 10 days later.

[cbrick]

I ordered 5 pounds of H-110, if big brown is telling me the truth I'll have it tomorrow. Right now it's in the loving, caring hands of big brown. If it comes tomorrow it will have been 9 days from when I placed my order for in stock powder. It took Powder Valley 6 1/2 weeks to get me an in stock order.

Rick

[Olevern]

Looks like this will be another company that dies a google death. Watched 3 die in the least year from similar rantings on another board.

Problems happen, we don't like them, but calling a business a scam or a thief is out of line here.

Call when there is an issue, email always comes off as everyone being pissed off.

Sorry you have an issue with company. Sure hope you aren't here to have them go out of business. These are crazy times. I haven't seen any primers local for 2 months. Powder is scarce for what I use. Don't want to see anyone go out of business because of the crazy that its going on right now.

Call your credit card provider and they will most likely get you a refund. Everyone here seems to have an attitude that if an order gets messed up, give the company hell and make them suffer. Things can get worked out without the parties involved coming off as *******s.

"Problems happen, we don't like them, but calling a business a scam or a thief is out of line here"

Where did I call the business a scam or a thief? I said their charging my card and leaving the product un-pulled on the shelves for A WEEK where it was then sold to another was lacking in integrity. If you sold me a boat and then before I came to pick it up, sold it to another individual, I'd say the same or worse about you.


if their business practices allowed for this loosely controlled inventory, then incidents like these were bound to happen. It's about what they should have known about their procedures within their business.

This is also about a very poor concept on their part regarding customer service relations.

when you mess up, the customer doesn't want to hear how many times you got it right, he wants to hear how you are going to make his situation right.

Mr. Bailey either doesn't care or he truly has no clue.

They sold my paid-for powder.

Refunding my money doesn't replace that powder on my shelves.

I can only assume his business will be, at some time in the future getting more powder in stock.

Any customer service representative worth his salt would have asked the customer in a situation where they screwed up "what can we do to made it right?"

You have all the email correspondence avail. to you in the thread, plus additional comments by Mr. Bailey.

Do you see anywhere that question was asked?

O.K., so your company policy is not to backorder powder. However, in such a circumstance where your screw-up left me without the powder I need in a tight market, would it hurt you to make an exception in one case and gather the order as soon as you get those powders in and ship them to me as per our original contract; that is in one shipment at the cost quoted?

That, sir, is "making it right", not wringing your hands and saying
"this hurts me more than it hurts you"
or "wishing I could do something for you but I can't"

From what I've seen, this gentleman has no concept of, or no business in a customer service representative role in any company.

If that sounds harsh to you, so be it...it is truth as I see it based on my experience.

The truth be told, it would have taken little to take me from a totally pi$$ed off customer to one who was annoyed but willing to give the business another chance.

If Mr. Bailey had reached out and simply said "we messed up, how can we fix it to your satisfaction?", this whole public exchange would have been unnecessary.

Instead, he dictated the terms - either accept one third of the product you paid for or cancel the entire order.

Then he minimized the internal procedural problems in his company "minor hiccups here and there" and insisted he was "trying to make right", while doing nothing to make it right.



Everyone here seems to have an attitude that if an order gets messed up, give the company hell and make them suffer. Things can get worked out without the parties involved coming off as *******s

I don't recall ever having called you an *******, and certainly take offense to your calling me one.

It's amazing how brave some people become on the internet where the recipient of their disrespect isn't present to call them to account for it.

[VintageRifle]

Read the entire thread. Others are saying they are scammers.

You are going off about being charged for a full order and being sent a partial order. From the rant, it implies they have your money and are just sitting on it. Kind of implies theif.

I may have missed it, but did they say they are charging you for shipping the rest of the powder when it comes back in stock? I didn't see that in the emails.

Call the company and talk with them. Email its not personal and wrong tones and assumptions easily are read into those words written.

I've had similar experiences buying online as well. I sent email, but found talking to the business on the phone was more productive. I got my order partially shipped and the rest stopped when it came in with no additional shipping charges.

They should have called you or send an email to see if you wanted that partial shipment.

Now you have some powder that cost you more per pound due to that lovely hazmat fee. Did you ask them about refunding part of that cost, ask if the rest of the order would require another fee, or did you blow your top?

[troyboy]

As long as your charges are credited back. So what? Really sick and tired of this gotta have mine now. My pv order took plenty long to arrive. Right now, patience is the word. Things happen you are not perfect either. Life ain`t perfect. Their gonna make It right. They had the balls to come here and say so.If I was caught unprepared as you.....I would be too embarrassed to criticize a business overwhelmed by the unprepared.

[VintageRifle]

If you sold me a boat and then before I came to pick it up, sold it to another individual, I'd say the same or worse about you.

If Mr. Bailey had reached out and simply said It's amazing how brave some people become on the internet where the recipient of their disrespect isn't present to call them to account for it.[/SIZE]

Funny, you mention the boat, happened to my dad and I on a used one many years ago. Same with a couple motorcycles.

You are right here online, same as me. The ******* applies to me as well.

Emails are not personal. Your email comes off as you being totally pissed off without asking what the company will do about the outstanding powder.

[Olevern]

Funny, you mention the boat, happened to my dad and I on a used one many years ago. Same with a couple motorcycles.

You are right here online, same as me. The ******* applies to me as well.

Emails are not personal. Your email comes off as you being totally pissed off without asking what the company will do about the outstanding powder.

and that could have something to do with the two 'canned' emails I received, telling me what they were going to do; that is, ship a third of my order for the full boat shipping and hazmat charges and cancel the bulk of my order that they sold to someone else.

Given the circumstances, I thought (and still think), my response was restrained.

[Olevern]

As long as your charges are credited back. So what? Really sick and tired of this gotta have mine now. My pv order took plenty long to arrive. Right now, patience is the word. Things happen you are not perfect either. Life ain`t perfect. Their gonna make It right. They had the balls to come here and say so.If I was caught unprepared as you.....I would be too embarrassed to criticize a business overwhelmed by the unprepared.

How do you know what I have in my reloading cabinet? How dare you suggest I am a "GOTTA HAVE MINE NOW" type.
And where did you read on this thread that they are going to make it right? I'd be willing to bet I have more primers and powder on hand than you do, but that doesn't mean that most of my paid for order should be cancelled a week after being charged for it. You, sir, have caused me to erase most of what I wrote here out of respect to the board, but please p.m. me your telephone number, I would love to have a conversation with you!


A small part of my unpreparedness:

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac56/Olevern/DSC_7814res.jpg (http://s885.photobucket.com/user/Olevern/media/DSC_7814res.jpg.html)

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac56/Olevern/DSC_6934resized.jpg (http://s885.photobucket.com/user/Olevern/media/DSC_6934resized.jpg.html)

[VintageRifle]

When did they say they were canceling the rest of the order?

From what it sounds like, the partial order was packed, shipping label applied, marked as ready to be picked up by the shipping company. You got an email saying you could cancel the order, butt didn't. This leaves me to believe the business had a way to get the items out of the shipping channel either by intercepting it before loading or have it routed back to them. You didn't cancel.

[uscra112]

In today's chaotic situation, ordering four or five different kinds of powder greatly increases the probability that one will be OOS by the time the order is pulled, forcing the order to be modified. Modifying the order puts an extra burden on the seller, which is further magnified because he is already swamped with orders. Pulling a tantrum over it on email only makes matters worse.

One of my pet peeves when I was still in management was our own employees starting flame wars with one another over the email, when ONE FRIGGIN' PHONE CALL would have settled the while issue.

Another problem we sometimes faced was a manager who, upon finding that a vendor was unable to meet a deadline, would throw a tantrum at the vendor. This was ALWAYS counterproductive and an utter waste of precious time. Understanding the vendor's problem, and working out a practical solution, was always the best policy. Sometimes it cost us a little in the short run, but it always paid off in the long run. There is no such animal as a perfect supply chain. No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy, either. If you expect perfection in all your dealings with your suppliers, you will always be disappointed. Learn to deal with it like a man, or go crazy.

[/rant]

[Olevern]

In today's chaotic situation, ordering four or five different kinds of powder greatly increases the probability that one will be OOS by the time the order is pulled, forcing the order to be modified. Modifying the order puts an extra burden on the seller, which is further magnified because he is already swamped with orders. Pulling a tantrum over it on email only makes matters worse.

One of my pet peeves when I was still in management was our own employees starting flame wars with one another over the email, when ONE FRIGGIN' PHONE CALL would have settled the while issue.

Another problem we sometimes faced was a manager who, upon finding that a vendor was unable to meet a deadline, would throw a tantrum at the vendor. This was ALWAYS counterproductive and an utter waste of precious time. Understanding the vendor's problem, and working out a practical solution, was always the best policy. Sometimes it cost us a little in the short run, but it always paid off in the long run. There is no such animal as a perfect supply chain. No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy, either. If you expect perfection in all your dealings with your suppliers, you will always be disappointed. Learn to deal with it like a man, or go crazy.

[/rant]

Nothing stated here excuses a vendor from immediately charging a credit card and then waiting A WEEK to pull the order from available to sell stock.

The vendor has admitted here that there were many people who shared my situation "during this time" while dealing with his company.

He never gave me the option of backordering the stuff he sold, he stated he was shipping the partial order and refunding for the rest.

And if, in your opinion, I have not handled this "as a man" please enlighten me as to your opinion on how I did handle it. No need to hold back, nobody else has. Might as well get your licks in, too.

It amazes me how this company engages in unethical business practices and I become the whipping boy.

And, I don't expect perfection in a vendor; but I do expect them to make it right (not just say they want to make it right, or they are going to make it right) when they screw up.

I am sorry you think I "pulled a tantrum" over my situation, but then you know what they say about >>>holes and opinion; everybody has one.

[plmitch]

petty,petty, petty

[sparky45]

Olevern is 100% right in this matter. If you as a consumer want to be treated in this manner then continue to believe this retailer acted properly. Shoddy business practices are NOT to be condoned, period. This retailer is a small business that willingly stepped into the deep end of the pool and darn near drowned. You who condone this practice, which in my opinion is similar to a bait and switch situation, should ALL experience the exact same thing. Once you experience the agony and frustration of not getting what you ordered or worse receiving "what's left", and at a increase in price over what was an agreed sum, then just keep it to yourself and remember the little lesson you could have learned.

[oldred]

Olvern is right on here and you guys trying to excuse that nonsense are overlooking something. They either charged him for something they didn't have or they had it and then sold HIS powder to someone else, they then (without permission) was going to ship a 1/3 order with the FULL shipping spread over that small amount. No matter how chaotic the times there is no excuse what-so-ever for charging for a product they didn't have or re-selling a product someone else had already paid for! Something like that might be excusable if it was just a once or twice oversight but by their own admission it had already happened several times. There is absolutely noting petty about this complaint and Olvern has a very legitimate gripe here!

[Olevern]

When did they say they were canceling the rest of the order?

From what it sounds like, the partial order was packed, shipping label applied, marked as ready to be picked up by the shipping company. You got an email saying you could cancel the order, butt didn't. This leaves me to believe the business had a way to get the items out of the shipping channel either by intercepting it before loading or have it routed back to them. You didn't cancel.

The first two emails said they were shipping a partial order and refunding the rest. After I expressed my opinion of that, owner gave me the option of cancelling the partial order (this a day after he unilaterally stated he would ship my order) So, he said in email "we are shipping your partial order today, then offered to cancel that same order the next day" I still don't understand how you can cancel a shipped order, but factoring into the whole of the situation this lie, I chose to cancel the partial order.

[VintageRifle]

Where did they say they were refunding the outstanding balance in the emails you first posted?

Also, you state that you canceled the order successfully. What are you out now? The order got screwed up, you canceled it, I am assuming you got a refund?

I still don't see where they said they canceled part of your order. I also don't see where they would charge you additional when the outstanding powders would ship.

Since you did pay for the powder, and I don't see them saying you would pay additional fees to get the rest shipped later. Your card being charged would hold the powder for you and it would ship when it came back in stock.

The refund portions appear to have come when the owner posted here.

Edited to fix auto corrects.

[Fishman]

OleVern is not the bad guy here. Are you kidding me? Most reasonable people will cut a business some slack if they feel they are being treated with respect after a mistake was made. I have a small business and any, and I do mean any, problems that come up are assumed to be my fault until proven otherwise. That involves a personal visit from me, a discussion of the problem, and a mutually agreed upon solution. That works 95% or more of the time. The only thing in this life you can stake any sort of claim to is your reputation. Integrity is the largest part of that.

And for those that excuse it by saying "the business was overwhelmed or too busy" I say nonsense. The canned email could have just as easily said "we are sorry we screwed up and we will fix it in the future. In the meantime, how can we make this right? We want you to be satisfied".

Their attempt at damage control was sorely lacking and revealed much about how they perceive their customers.

[Olevern]

Where did they say they were refunding the outstanding balance in the emails you first posted?

Also, you state that you canceled the order successfully. What are you out now? The order got screwed up, you canceled it, I Assn assuming you got a refund?

I still don't see where they said they cackled part of your order. I also don't see where they would charge you additional when the outstanding powders would ship.

Since you did pay for the powder, and I don't see them saying you would pay additional fees to get the rest shipped later. Your card being charged would hold the powder for you and it would ship when it came back in stock.

The refund portions appear to have come when the owner posted here.

They said most of the order was now unavailable and they had no idea when they could get more; they made no offer to backorder or mitigate the shipping on the partial order even 'though they admitted the powder was in stock when I ordered it and later sold to walk in customers.

[oldred]

What happened here is obvious, they had powder on the shelf and were unwilling to see a walk-in customer leave without making a sale, never mind the FACT that Olvern had already been charged for that powder-he had already paid for it so they already had his money and in effect they sold that same powder twice! You guys claiming this is an understandable mistake are conveniently overlooking the fact that it was an on-going way of doing business and that was by the owner's own admission! He said they were trying to correct the problem but apparently they weren't trying very hard, sounds like a profitable way to make sales as long as no one complains. I am willing to bet that some of the people supporting this shoddy business practice would be complaining loudly if it happened to them.

[41 mag fan]

Vern, I see exactly where you are coming from. It didn't matter if you bought the 1lb cans of powder, without the other 8lb containers, you're getting what looks like the same amount on shipping charges....am I correct on this?

Did this place say they would initially charge you shipping on the 1lb containers, then charge you shipping again on the 8lb containers when they got them in stock and shipped them'?
If this is the case, as what I'm perceiving, then yes, they are screwing you over.
I see what you're saying on paying shipping charges for the whole order, but it's only a partial order and you're getting charged the same amount in shipping.
If this is the case, their best efforts on this would be to ship you the partial, with the full shipping charges, and then when they get the other order in, ship it out on their dime.
But I can see their point to, they'd be picking up the hazmat and shipping on the 2nd order. Which would cost than if they just notified you of what happened and either refunded whole amount, unless you wanted to pay the extra charges when the order came in, or hold the order till the other came in and shipped it as a whole then.
If this is the case, they shouldn't of charged your CC till the order was packed and ready to ship.
I can in this case, see your point, and maybe this will be a learning experience for this Mr Bailey on how to handle a situation like this if it happens again.
Regardless of the outcome, I hope it works out for you Vern.

[x101airborne]

Vern, I am sorry you had this trouble. Thank you for making us aware of the situation.
I do hold the company to blame here and I think what you would have preferred (if I understand correctly) would have been a courteous letter identifying the issue, the company admitting fault, listing several options to you for your satisfaction, a thank you for your patience and business, an explanation of steps being taken to make sure this does not happen again, and possibly (not necessary, but a nice gesture) would have been to offer you a discount on your next order. I would have liked to been treated like that and that is how I would treat others in that situation if I were a business owner.
I apologize for some of the responses you have gotten on this on behalf of everyone here and hope this is resolved quickly.
Trey

[Trigger1]

Olevern, Oldred, Sparkey45- You are right.
I am one of the people who just got a canned email 10 days after I purchased and paid for my powder that was in stock at the time of my order (over 1000 units in stock per their website). 3rd generation is playing both side of the coin, selling their powder twice. Because online sales far out weigh walk in's. They make the sales online take the money so they have a confirmed sale and the money sitting in their account. Do to the D.O.T. quantity restictions that UPS has as far as haz/dangerous goods that are allowed per truck our orders sit in line waiting to get on the truck to ship to us. Now when a customer walks in the door at 3rd Generation and wants the same powder that they ALREADY sold to us online and have our money in their account they don't have the honor and dignity to say sorry we are out of stock. Instead they go to the back open our orders, that are waiting to get on the truck, take our PAID for items and resell them to the walk-in customer. It is very easy for them to send a canning email to a faceless online customer instead of standing up and being a man and an honest business owner and tell someone face to face sorry we are out of stock. So us online customer are their back up sales (income) just in case they didn't sell it in the store by the time it gets on the truck.
I don't care if they refund the money that's not the point. The point is their shady "double selling" business practice. Several day's after I placed, paid for my order and receieved my order confirmation email, I cancelled my orders that I had with several other online retailers because I THOUGHT I was getting my order. So now I am S.O.L. I have no problem with Items being out of stock. We all understand that. This has nothing to do with supply chain. This is shady business practic plain and simple. You don't sell items that you don't have in stock (take a back order) and you definitely don't steal another customers paid for products to resell for the quick cash......

[oldred]

you definitely don't "STEAL" another customers paid for products to resell for the quick cash......


And stealing is what is was, Olvern had already paid for the powder and it was his, it was no longer theirs to sell!

One line in their E-Mail response was quite telling, "We now have it worked out with our shippers so this WILL NOT happen again on this large of a scale". He highlights "WILL NOT" happen again but goes on to say "on this large of a scale"! He then says " I can't say it won't happen as we are only human and make mistakes but we are taking every step we can to prevent it". This guy must have been a lawyer, he never in any way said this would not happen again and in fact made it plain that it probably would but just "not on that scale"! His response was **** covering double talk plain and simple and he made it plain that if he decided to continue doing business this way he would, come on now "trying" to not double sell a product? It's quite plain that his attitude is the on-line customer is already hooked so take care of the walk-ins and deal the on-lines with whatever is left, after all they are not there to complain if the powder they have ALREADY PAID for is then sold to someone else!

[VintageRifle]

Costumer orders online at the same time an in store customer takes the last of the product to the cash register. Who gets it?

Order waits for new inventory that is due in. New inventory does not come in. Business should have called about shortage.

Maybe next time we find a dealer that gets in inventory we want, we wait until we get it in our hands before telling the world where it is located.

Now it sound like you have plenty of powder and primers, but wanted more in a time of hording, mass purchases, got to get more before its out of stock even if I don't need it, and I am going to buy just do you can't, buying trend.

Don't think 1000 of anything lasts long these days. Someone sees 1000 in stock just like the other million people and everyone clicks buy. Not counting those in the store doing the same thing.

Its a no win for everyone these days. I watch stock come into a local store (22lr) just to watch it go out the door 10 minutes later as the same 4 guys buy it all every week. They don't need it, the just want to get it before someone else does or they mark it up to sell at the gun show. Times are tough for reloads and shooters.

[oldred]

Costumer orders online at the same time an in store customer takes the last of the product to the cash register. Who gets it?


On-line stock sitting out in the walk-in store being offered for sale is just asking for trouble, if that's what's causing the problem then that's extremely poor business practice! He say's he is "trying" to solve the problem and freely admits it was an on-going problem that's likely to continue so he must be pretty dumb if he can't figure out how to keep from selling shelf stock twice!

[VintageRifle]

Do a Google search for this company. You will now see they have complaints listed at the top of the search. You got want you wanted. The company will now suffer. It may even suffer enough to go out of business.

[Bad Water Bill]

What would happen if a RESPECTABLE business suddenly finds itself swamped with orders and unable to fill ALL of them in a timely manner (one day-week) and stops taking internet orders till they have caught up with ALL orders.

Once caught up with orders they now know what they OWN and can make available FOR SALE.

If you do not own it how can you legally sell it.

Yes we do have at least one member here that takes orders and when they have enough to keep them busy filling orders with product ON HAND they quit taking more orders BUT give a date they will be able to fill more orders in a timely fashion.

[Fishman]

Do a Google search for this company. You will now see they have complaints listed at the top of the search. You got want you wanted. The company will now suffer. It may even suffer enough to go out of business.

His business model is flawed and now he is being made painfully aware of it. He obviously didn't see the problem before. He will adapt or go out of business. Many here excuse poor business practices because "they are one of our own" because they sell gun stuff. What nonsense. The firearms community, more than almost any other, is full of excellent companies that know how to treat their customers.

[oldred]

Costumer orders online at the same time an in store customer takes the last of the product to the cash register. Who gets it?

Order waits for new inventory that is due in. New inventory does not come in. Business should have called about shortage.

Maybe next time we find a dealer that gets in inventory we want, we wait until we get it in our hands before telling the world where it is located.

Now it sound like you have plenty of powder and primers, but wanted more in a time of hording, mass purchases, got to get more before its out of stock even if I don't need it, and I am going to buy just do you can't, buying trend.

Don't think 1000 of anything lasts long these days. Someone sees 1000 in stock just like the other million people and everyone clicks buy. Not counting those in the store doing the same thing.

Its a no win for everyone these days. I watch stock come into a local store (22lr) just to watch it go out the door 10 minutes later as the same 4 guys buy it all every week. They don't need it, the just want to get it before someone else does or they mark it up to sell at the gun show. Times are tough for reloads and shooters.


Still no excuse, the shortage did not happen just as Olvern's order was placed and was in fact well known for months before that order. There's no getting around it, they took money from multiple customers for a product that they had insufficient quantities of and it was far from an isolated case -that by the owner's own admission. Stick up for them if you like but if a person or a company takes money for a product they claim to have on hand it's their responsibility to deliver that product, mistakes might be excusable but when they are aware of the problem (as they freely admitted that they were) but allow it to continue it becomes incompetence instead of a mistake and unethical/dishonest if allowed to continue intentionally!

[oldred]

He obviously didn't see the problem before.


Actually by his own admission he was already aware of the problem, not only that but he made it plain it was likely to continue just "not on as big of a scale" whatever that is supposed to mean (obviously it means it is going to happen to at least a few more customers!). He had to say something to try to cover for what they had done when he posted to this board but look at what he said! He never said this practice would stop, he simply said they had worked it out with the shippers so that it would not happen again ON THIS LARGE OF A SCALE! His post here was full of double talk that in no way said the problem was being corrected and in fact made it plain it would likely continue, he left himself an "out" with everything he said! He was aware of the problem beforehand what he was apparently not aware of was the response he was going to get from the online customers he tried to take advantage of!

[Bad Water Bill]

P S This answer has been approved by the legal firm of -----. :bigsmyl2:

[Olevern]

Costumer orders online at the same time an in store customer takes the last of the product to the cash register. Who gets it?

Order waits for new inventory that is due in. New inventory does not come in. Business should have called about shortage.

Maybe next time we find a dealer that gets in inventory we want, we wait until we get it in our hands before telling the world where it is located.

Now it sound like you have plenty of powder and primers, but wanted more in a time of hording, mass purchases, got to get more before its out of stock even if I don't need it, and I am going to buy just do you can't, buying trend.

Don't think 1000 of anything lasts long these days. Someone sees 1000 in stock just like the other million people and everyone clicks buy. Not counting those in the store doing the same thing.

Its a no win for everyone these days. I watch stock come into a local store (22lr) just to watch it go out the door 10 minutes later as the same 4 guys buy it all every week. They don't need it, the just want to get it before someone else does or they mark it up to sell at the gun show. Times are tough for reloads and shooters.

So now I'm a hoarder and buying just so others can't?

I won't even justify that remark with a response.

Mods: this probably is a good place to close this thread.

I've had enough and it's too tempting to cut loose and say here what I really think of some of these jack hammers' responses.

[cbrick]

So now I'm a hoarder and buying just so others can't?

I won't even justify that remark with a response.

Remember, there are people that can only make judgments of others by looking in the mirror.

Rick

[jcwit]

I think this bickering has gone on long enough!

Frankly I could care less one way or the other. But it was fun to read.

Its very obvious that more than a few here have never ran a business let alone one that is running into shortages such as we have in the firearms business today.

Should have seen what it was like during the steel strikes and gas shortages back in the 60's/70's with the RV industry. We sold and shipped hundreds of units short LP tanks, and other parts.

[VintageRifle]

[SIZE=3]How do you know what I have in my reloading cabinet? How dare you suggest I am a "GOTTA HAVE MINE NOW" type.
And where did you read on this thread that they are going to make it right? I'd be willing to bet I have more primers and powder on hand than you do

Hmmm.

[Olevern]

Hmmm.

Oh, I got it now. I'm at fault for not being prepared for the shortage and stocking up, or , if that's not the case, then I'm at fault for being a hoarder. Guess I just can't avoid it.....this whole situation is my fault. I admit it......now go away.

In fact, I'm responsible for the vendor in the original post double selling merchandise and the whole component shortage as well.

Oh, and btw, just so you don't have to ask, I'm responsible for global warming and juvenile diabetes too.

What a bunch of ash hats!

[VintageRifle]

Nope, not saying it is your fault. Just don't like seeing someone go off on a company like this. It all could have been solved with a phone call and not the accusatory first email.

You got your money back, what is it that you want? Your powder? They ran out and made it right by refunding your money.

[fishhawk]

Well had to happen guess it's time to close this one up...............