Dang, how hard can pan lubing be?

[Namerifrats]

I'm on my 6th attempt to turn out decent lubed bullets by pan lubing. Don't really care for the sticky bullets that tumbling with LLA gives me. So I mixed up some Felix Lube, 2 batches. The lube was solid all the way through, no separation. First I tried it with the cheap (silver looking) cake pans from Wal-Mart and the cakes stuck in the pans and had to be peeled and scooped out. The bullets didn't have lube in hardly any of the grooves. Figured it was my pans so went to Wal-Mart again and bought the more expensive "non stick" cake pans. Same thing, the cakes will not fall out regardless if I wait until it completely hardens, stick it in the Freezer for a few minutes, or wait until the lube just starts to cool and solidify and turn it upside down. When I do that, I usually get one or two bullets that just drop out on the towel with very little lube on them. Heres what I've tried so far and the bullets I'm using....

Lee 440 Grain .50 Cal bullets for the 500 S&W,

I've followed Goatlips site instructions with no luck, the lube cake just will not drop out of the pan.
I tried what (drinks) said he does, when the lube finally climbs the bullet a little the stuff doesn't stay in the grooves when I take'em out.
I've tried pouring melted lube into the pan with the bullets already in there, then going into the oven at 180 degrees for 15-20 minutes.
I've melted the lube in the pan on very low heat on the stove eye, then placing the bullets in there and letting it cool with no luck.

Not sure whats going on, I'm thinking it's too sticky, and maybe thats why it's not dropping out of the pan. I have even remelted the lube and added more Parrafin to try and harden the lube and hopefully get better results, nothing. Anyway to lose some of the stickyness?
I tried the cake cutter method on the bullets while still in the pan after the lube cooled. I drilled out a 500 S&W case, belled the mouth, and the bullets would stick in there and it was really hard to get them out, even using a wooden dowel through the drilled out primer pocket. I lubed the inside of the case and tried again, same thing. And when i did get them out, not much lube at all in the grooves. I just gave up earlier and lubed a bunch with my finger, pretty messy but it's all I had left for an option until I get some info.
Anyway, I have some Carnauba Red ordered from Lar and hopefully when it gets here I'll have better luck with it.

[DonH]

I can't address the question of why the lube won't fill the grooves, etc as I have no experience with Felix lube. It does sound like a characteristic of the lube itself. Nothing bad intended by that comment. Have you tried heating the bullets slightly with a hair dryer or the like prior to pouring the lube in? Smoe have found this beneficial with some other lubes.
When pan lubing with Darr lube, I always have the cake of lube stuck in the pan. Here is my brainstorm. I tried it and eureka! Let the lube solidify completely then set the pan in a freezer. The different contraction rates between the pan and lube breaks the bond nicely. Won't cost anything to try but you may get berated if you have someone fussy in charge of the freezer. As to the cake cutter problem, have you tried drilling out the case head so you can use a rod (dowel or otherwise) to push out the bullet?

[Wayne Smith]

I put a sheet of Saran wrap in the pan, add my bullets, and pour the lube (not Felix). When the lube hardens it's easy to lift the whole thing up and punch them out from the bottom.

[VTDW]

Lube likes warm boolits sometimes.

[JSH]

The only thing I have pan lubed were 45-70 projectiles, as I don't have a sizer die and don't shoot that many.
I dropped by the goodwill and found a nice heavy tin cake pan, about 8x10. I had some lube of various batches laying around and just mixed it all together, all FWFL but different batches.
I stood all of my boolits up in the pan and put them on the fot plate I modified for pre heating moulds. I just started adding lube until it got to the depth I wanted. I then let it heat about another 20 minutes to make sure the heat was all uniform through out. I then just set the pan on the floor of the basement and let cool for about 15-20 minutes. I had used a modified 45-70 case but put it up so I would know where it was. I ended up taking a 300MW case and drilling the flash hole out and then chopping off the neck/shoulder. I took that and ran up into the 45-70 neck expanding die, then trimmed so it was square at the mouth. I use a dowel to push out the bullets.
I did try to use the freezer trick, but susupect my lube is a bit to soft to make this work. I prefer a soft lube myself.
As mentioned above it sounds to me like maybe your bullets are to cold and your lube may not be warm enough either? I would thing you would want both items about the same temp?
Jeff

[jonk]

I feel your pain. I too have had this issue in spades. I only am tempted to pan lube a few bullets, for which I don't have sizing dies, or for which I don't want to use LLA. A few things I've noticed-

I have never been able to pull a pan lubed bullet out of the pan and have the lube stay in the grooves. Zero. Nada. I'm not saying that there isn't a lube out there where this works- just that I've not tried it. I've used 50/50 and Feelix and a homemade BP blend of beeswax and olive oil. All utterly failed.

However, I have had some very good luck with the cookie cutter approach. The trick I've found is to either use a soft, tacky lube or to cut when still somewhat soft. If your bullets are sticking I think that you are probably casting them too fat for the parent case to easily accept them. This is a hard fix- you could try finding a slightly larger diameter tube at a hardware store, or a slightly larger case- i.e. 45/70 (nominal bullet .457-.459) to cut a .45 auto (.451-.452").

[hunter64]

I had the same problem and the way I curred it was a two fold solution. First I lined the bottom of the pan with wax paper, just cut a piece slightly bigger than the pan and lay it in there. Placed the bullets upright in the pan on top of the waxed paper and poured the hot lube in until the grooves are filled. Once the cake was hard enough I simply turned the cake over and out came the bullets and then with just thumb pressure I would push on top of the bullets with the whole cake sitting on top of a folded towel. 95% of the bullets would fill out fine and the ones that didn't I just tried again with.

[armoredman]

Hunter, I may have to try that. LLA works but is a mess.

[Namerifrats]

I edited my original to include that I did drill out the case and use a wooden dowel rod. Forgot to put that in there. I haven't tried preheating the bullets yet, but will attempt that. As far as getting bullets and lube the same temp, I have done that both on the stove eye and in the oven and checked both bullets and lube with an infrared thermometer. Those bullets get really hot quicker than the lube. As far as the wax paper, I'll try that this evening and see how it works. Lubing them one at a time by finger will take me forever, so I've got to get something going.

[dromia]

I've never managed to get the Goatlips method to work either, its a sort of running challenge for me. Every so often I give it a go to see if I can crack it but I never get the lube to cleanly break leaving the stuff in the grooves.

Tried it every which way with different boolits, lubes, the whole shooting match an nary any success.

Pan lubing is not something I need to do but I just give it a try now and then for a change, the kake kutter approach works fine though.

So no help from me but some sympathy at least.

[drinks]

Name, I use LBT soft blue, Lar's red and the 50-50 beeswax/peanut oil I make.
I am posting pictures of bullets I have lubed and the high tech equipment.
The pair of $1 forceps I place and remove the bullets with are not shown, nor the $1 garage sale hot plate.
I have not tried FWFL this way, but the ones I have, which includes NRA Alox and RCBS stick[I have no idea what it is, but would guess it is the same as NRA Alox.]
The only problem I have with the 50-50 is evident in the picture of the pan full, look at the scratches on the surface of the brown lube, the local mice like it very well.

[Namerifrats]

Tried the wax paper method, still the same result. Well, almost, the cake did come out of the pan this time. But their was still no lube in the grooves hardly. I'm not trying to do this anymore with the batches of lube I made. I'll try it again with the Carnauba Red from Lar when I get it. If it doesn't work then, I guess I'll be officially done with pan lubing.

[hunter64]

Namerifrats: What kind of pan are you using again? I use a 9"pie pan made of thin tin (9" on the top and about 6" on the botton). Most of the time when it is rock solid I just kind of bend the tin around the corners and the whole cake just plops right out. There is one lube that gives me problems with how soft it is and that is when I use the wax paper method. Once the "cake" is out I put it on top of a folded towel and with the end of a wooden mallet, spoon etc I just give each of the bullets a tap on the nose and they push right thru the lube cake and that is it.

[Arnie]

Sounds like the viscisity of your lube (if thats the right word ) is too thick ,like not enough tin in lead when casting .All the lubes i have made will fill lube grooves no problem but they are bees wax based or soy wax .Once you get a cake of lube with holes in it ,just punch clean bullets back in and set the whole thing in the oven at about 200 degrees for about 20 to 30 minutes ,then let cool till set .Arnie

[shotstring]

I've heard that SPG lube is "heaven" for pan lubing. I got some for some rifle bullets that are going downrange pretty fast and I have no sizeing die for these bullets so I thought I would try the SPG lube for these even though the lube is so expensive. I figure how much can a few 30 cal bullets need, so a block should last a while. Have you tried the SPG lube?

[Namerifrats]

I've tried two types of pans. Both are cake pans from Wal-Mart. They both have the sloped sides. One has a non stick finish and the other is just a silver colored one. The lube just sticks to the pans like crazy, I have to "scoop" it out with a spoon. And I don't mean get the spoon under it to pry it up and lift it out in large pieces, i mean litteraly scoop the stuff out in spoon fulls. It may be too thick, it's really sticky and about the consistancy of Play Dough. I followed the directions exact on making the felix lube. Only things I done on my own to it was add a blue crayon for color, and I added Parafin to try and harden it and make it less sticky.

[dromia]

I've tried the following lubes without success and there is a fair range of viscosity/stickiness here:

Home made Emmerts and a BP lube 4 parts beeswax, 3 parts olive oil, 3 parts lanolin.

Lee 50/50 Beeswax/Alox
RCBS green lube
White label 50/50
White Label 2500
White Label BAC
White Label Carnauba red
White Label BPCR
Ideal
Lyman Alox

Obviously there is a knack here I'm missing too.

[DonH]

I use an old straight-sided 9" round cake pan I swiped from the wife. I think it is tinned. My primary lube for BP and low pressure smokeless is like Emmerts with sheep tallow substituted for the Crisco and with a bit of lanolin added. Pan lubing is a dream with this lube. No pre-heating bullets and the whole cake drops from the pan when solid. I push the bullets through the cake with my thumb (and leather glove). The grooves are filled out and a film of lube is left on the bands. This lube so far has worked to 1500 fps+ with 25/1 plain-base bullets with no leading. SPG also works for smokeless loads.
The other lube I am working with at present is Darr with the addition of lanolin in equal amount to the STP. It eworks every bit as easily as my BP lube except that it requires the freezer to break the bond with the pan. It is a fairly soft lube. I remove the bullets from the lube cake the same as with the BP powder. One thing I believe but can't prove, is that the lanolin makes the lube stick to the bullet better. I have not tried the wax paper method but as the freezer thing works cleanly and is no-fuss I will probably stick to that.
As I said earlier, I have no experience with Felix lube. It sounds like a great lube, especially with higher velocity loads but if I needed to pan lube and it gave me the problems you describe in that application, I would try another lube. This process just should not be that complicated. Perjaps Felix can share some insight?

[Onlymenotu]

I tryed panlubing with mutch the same results as seems most of u have had little luck....my cure to the problem /solution was.....I heat my lube in a double boiler till its well melted *and keep it there* then dip * a cold/room temp* boolit in up to the lubegrooves ...and pull it straight out.... move it over to a sheet of waxpaper,,, then sitting down on the waxpaper,,, sorta pushdown on it and *smush if u will* slide it sideways to help clean the bottom- base off then after they are cooled and i have several dozen of them done then i make a cookie cutter that is the same size all the way through and i simply push down on each boolit,,,, pushing the next boolit out the top..... it's not super fast but it works,,,,,, and i have nice full lube grooves.. with little to no pulling of the lube....... works for me good luck with it if u try it

[Ohio Rusty]

The 310 shop makes a something called a Kake Kutter like Lyman made years ago. It is made just for cutting bullets out of a batch of bullets that has been pan lubed. Their url is: http://www.cnyauctions.com/the310shop.htm It might give you an idea how to make something like it to help cut the bullets out.
Ohio Rusty

[MT Gianni]

I've tried two types of pans. Both are cake pans from Wal-Mart. They both have the sloped sides. One has a non stick finish and the other is just a silver colored one. The lube just sticks to the pans like crazy, I have to "scoop" it out with a spoon. And I don't mean get the spoon under it to pry it up and lift it out in large pieces, i mean litteraly scoop the stuff out in spoon fulls. It may be too thick, it's really sticky and about the consistancy of Play Dough. I followed the directions exact on making the felix lube. Only things I done on my own to it was add a blue crayon for color, and I added Parafin to try and harden it and make it less sticky.

When pan lubing as I understand it you leave the lube in the pan when you are done, You replace bullet holes with bullets and reheat to a melting point. You want to have the lube height the heighth of the lube grooves and when it no longer fills the highest you add a tablespoon or two. Gianni.

[Taylor]

I found that stove burner covers,(come in a pack of 4,with little flowery stuff painted on them,or grapes if you prefer) do good in this. I found them in the kitchen gadget section at Wally World. They are painted and keeps the lube from sticking, the whole thing pops right out. I push the bullet out with a piece of dowel rod.

[scrapcan]

I have done pan lubing using a cheap pie pan and various lubes. Lubes include javelina, microlube, whitelabel (50/50, BAC, CR), rcbs, lyman NRA, and a few others. I have not had much trouble.

I wonder how the humidity at the time of cool down effects things. I usually let it setup so I don't spill it while going in the freezer for a few minutes. Take it out of the freezer and then push bullets out by hand.

Good to hear I may run into some troubles and that others may be able to help me out when I do.

[DonH]

I have done pan lubing using a cheap pie pan and various lubes. Lubes include javelina, microlube, whitelabel (50/50, BAC, CR), rcbs, lyman NRA, and a few others. I have not had much trouble.

Seem like you have about run the gamut of lubes and you say pan lubing has worked for you. If what you are doing works, keep doin it.

I guess I should have mentioned that I melt the lube in a double boiler arrangement. I have tried (successfully) the method of re-melting the cake around bullets in an oven. I think it pays to be careful doing this that the lube is not overheated as scorching ruins some lubes. As long as the temp is held @ 200deg. or less there will be no danger.

[utk]

Namerifrats, maybe your lube grooves are too shallow/rounded?

[**oneshot**]

I use a make shift double boiler for pan lubing. I have a large pan that I have a metal cookie cutter to support the smaller lubing pan. For the first batch of boolits, I fill the larger pan with water until it covers the cutter, I put the bullets in the smaller pan, set it on the cutter and bring the water to just about boiling. I then pour in melted lube. remove the small pan and set it afloat on a tub of water to cool it down. I use a spent case with a nail through the enlarged primer hole. Now from here you just keep filling the holes with boolits and remelting the lube.
This heats the boolits enough(too hot to touch) that the lube sticks really good in the grooves. I tried other methods and ended up with lube that cracked and fell out of the grooves as it dried, or didn't fill the grooves evenly. Without heating the boolits the lube cools at the boolits and "freezes" too quickly to fill the grooves.

[Bass Ackward]

Wow, does this bring back nightmares.

When you ask the question for the title of this thread, you can now understand why super cheap casters made Lyman's 45 a hit. :grin: Gotta love deep, square grease groove bullets!

Yep, I was one of them. I am not too proud to admit it. :grin:

[Namerifrats]

Ok, heres the latest. I got the Carnauba Red from Lar (White Label) today, tried it and heres the result. It still doesn't come out of the pan, BUT.....out of 50 bullets lubed only 3 had partial filled grooves and all others were lubed perfectly! So I will be purchasing several more sticks of this really good stuff! Thanks Lar!
So, I'm guessing it was my lube that was the culprit for not filling the grooves, I'm keeping it though because maybe I can tweak it a bit and get it working for me as well. The lube sticking in the pan, not really sre whats going on. My "cake cutter" (500 S&W) casing didn't do much good either with the Carnauba Red, 3 in 5 would still stick in the case and require a little work to get it out. I ended up waiting until the stuff had really cooled down and I would firmly grasp the top of the bullet and rock it side to side and it would come out perfectly lubed. It's a bit slow but at least I'm getting the result I went for.
Someone ask me about did I leave the lube in the pan and refill the holes. I would do that if it had worked in the first place. The lube was just above the top groove so if it would fill them it would have been able to. Not really sure whats going on with that. Maybe I added too much Lanolin, the directions stated adding a Tablespoon, now that could be two ways. A heaping tablespoon that I added, or a tablespoon level off. Maybe thats why it's so sticky and messy. Lar's stuff hardly got on me at all, very nice lube!

[leftiye]

I just picked up dome lanolin to use as draw die lube, and I am thinking about using some in some boolit lube. Does anyone know if Namerats is right about it making the lube sticky? How about how much to use per say 1/2 pound?

[scrapcan]

I forgot to mention that I also use the double boiler method. I use the same pan for different size bullets that I don't have the correct sizer die. I lube and shoot as cast, not always the msot successful but sometimes it is until I get a sizer die.