Cast Lead - Elmer Keith Style - 140 Gr. Boolets Question

[Rob Carney]

I've been looking all around this site for some info. on Herco powder data for use with Elmer Keith style .38 Special and .357 magnum cast lead boolets - approx. 140 Gr. - but can't find it. Maybe some of you old-timers will take pity on me and point me in the right direction. I purchased some surplus .38 brass and discovered that the neck diameter of all of the Remington-Peters brass (after resizing) was a little loose when I attempted to insert a copper clad projectile. So, I decided that they probably held a lead projectile originally. I could work with it by giving the case another full sizing and the copper boolet a full crimp; but, I decided instead to load lead in the R-P brass. Got about 100 140 Gr. cast, sized and lubed lead projectiles, from a friend (they measure about 0.359" average diameter) so I plan to load them in the R-P's and also some .357 magnum brass. But, I can't find any good load data for Herco powder and cast lead projectiles for .38 Special or Win 231 for the .357 magnum with a lead load. I don't want it too hot and maybe leave some lead behind in the barrel of my son's Ruger GP-100. I'm stuck! Can anybody help me? Thanks a lot!!!

[runfiverun]

6-8 grs of the herco in the 357.
7 is getting there, I use 7.5 in my leverguns and revolvers it does well.

I use 4 grs of 231 in my 38 special for a nice light target load.
you can go down about 1/2 gr and up 1 for more or less.
4 grs is about 750 fps and is pleasant to shoot with 125-160 gr boolits.

[gwpercle]

That's about it for Herco and 357 mag. Lyman # 46 shows a max load for 150 gr #358477, sized 357, as 7.8 grs....so the 7.5 gr. load for 140gr boolit ( double check that boolit weight) would be considered about as hot as you want to go at first. Be sure and work up your loads before going all out and loading a bunch that may be too hot for your gun .
I found zip for herco and 38 special.

Gary

[GP100man]

Herco & IMR800X are very close to burn speed in 38/357 cases Herco being a notch faster.

Nice predictable mid speed powders that work ,but don`t meter worth spit !!

I add 1/2 teaspoon of powdered graphite/# to help.

[dbosman]

Google can be your friend.
Search on Elmer Kieth and read some of the articles we read when he was alive. The #358429 bullet has two crimp locations. Crimped on the leading edge for .357, crimped in the crimp grove, over the same load in a .38 case. Great bullet.

Here is the pertinent info for his pet loads.
http://www.sixguns.com/range/elmersloads.htm
...
Keith designed a series of bullets for the Lyman/Ideal Corporation that, with their distinctive semi-wadcutter shape, have come to be known simply as Keith bullets. Along with these bullets, Elmer came up with what have come to be known as the Keith loads. Some of these have been around for nearly sixty years and have still not been improved upon. The Keith loads are as follows:

.38 SPECIAL: For use in heavy-framed guns which today exist only as .357 Magnums, the Keith Lyman 173 grain bullet #358429 over 13.5 grains of #2400 with .38 Special brass. This load goes over 1400 fps. from my 8 3/8" Model 27 and is the most accurate load I have found for it. It will still go 1200+ fps. from a 3 1/2" Model 27 and makes an excellent small game load and defensive load.

.44 SPECIAL: Elmer's early load for his beloved Special was 18.5 grains of # 2400 with the 250 grain Keith bullet #429421 in balloon head cases. When solid cases came along, with less powder capacity, the charge was dropped to 17.0 grains. Both loads go over 1200+ fps. from a 7 1/2" Colt Single Action and are exceptionally accurate especially in a Smith & Wesson Model 24.

.45 COLT: Keith's early load was an extremely powerful 22.0 grains of #2400 again in balloon head cases. This was dropped to 20.0 grains and then to 18.5 grains in modern brass with all loads using the 260 grain #454424 Keith bullet. This is a 1150+ fps load and should be used only in modern .45 Colts. When the Ruger .45 Colt Blackhawk came along, Elmer upped the charge to 20.0 grains of #2400 again for nearly 1250 fps from a 7 1/2" barrel.

.45 AUTO RIM: Using the 238 grain #452423 Keith bullet or the #454424 .45 Colt Keith bullet over 7.5 grains of Unique in the stubby Auto Rim cases for use in Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers gives 850 fps and 936 fps respectively and makes an excellent defensive six-gun/load combination when used in a Smith & Wesson 25-2 sixgun.

-44 MAGNUM: Keith early settled on 22.0 grains of #2400 with his #429421 bullet for 1225 fps. out of a 4" Smith, 1400+ fps out of a 6 1/2" Smith or 7 1/2" Ruger. These are hunting handloads pure and simple, with this load taking big game all over the world.

.41 MAGNUM: The .41 did not come along until the 1960's and Keith designed a new bullet #410459 for loading the Smith & Wesson and Ruger .41 Magnurns. His recommendation of 20.0 grains of #2400 clocks out at 1500 fps from either an 8 3/8" Smith or 7 1/2" Ruger Bisley. This is a very flat-shooting and accurate load and certainly adequate for any deer or black bear.

We live in a throw-away society. People are forgotten quickly, too quickly. Elmer Keith lived at a time we will never see again; it would be a shame if his guns and trophies are not saved for future generations.

[Mk42gunner]

dbosman, a couple of points that are wrong with your post:

Every 358429 that I have ever seen or read about only has one crimp groove, perhaps you are thinking of the Thompson designed 358156?

Mr. Keith did not design the 410459, in fact I believe it was that boolit that made him design the H&G 258 and start really promoting H&G as the only mold makers that were making molds to his specifications. I'm not sure if he objected to the design, or if it was the fact that Lyman called it a Keith design when he didn't have anything to do with it.

Robert

[454PB]

What "Keith style" boolit for .38/.357 only weighs 140 grains?