Argentine help

[inthebeech]

I am picking up a fine DWM made 1909. It has had the popular
rechambering to 30-06 so I am suspicious of its accuracy potential
given the differences between the .308 (jacketed) / .311 ( cast) boolits
that the 06 case wants and the slightly larger diameters that the 7.65
barrel wants. If I have it rechambered and rebored to the Whelen, isn't
this a bit risky; if we go a hair too deep with the chamber reamer
then the barrel must come off anyway to get set back. Given
these risks, I am inclined to pull it now and get a new tube from the
start.
Any help would be appreciated.

[bruce drake]

You are on a casting forum and you worry about bore size? ;) Just load them the 30-06 cases with some .312 or .314 sized lead boolits and you'll be fine. Consider it a 31-06 and reload with the same bullets you'd reload your 303 British, 7.62x54, 7.62x39, 7.7 Arisaka or 7.65 Argentine with.

Its been rechambered once before so the Primo prices for an untouched 1909 Argentine aren't there but you do have a fine quality Mauser with an easily opened floorplate option.

Save the rebore. Its cheaper to buy a 35 Whelen barrel and replace the Mauser barrel than to go through the hassle of finding a quality reboring outfit.

Me? I'd keep it as a 31-06 since I can cast for that caliber already and the molds are readily available.

Bruce

[MtGun44]

You are in a perfect position to make this work just fine, as Bruce has said.

Custom fitted ammo will shoot great, I will bet. I have one of the same situations
with a Peruvian Mauser converted to .30-06, have not tried cast in it yet, no
time.

Bill

[morcey2]

I have the same thing. It's pretty accurate with 180 grain round nose jacketed in .308". 150 grainers are less than impressive accuracy wise. I was going to start loading it as a 31-06, but the it's on its way to become a 6mm Remington right now. I have enought 30-06s that I don't want to try to push an excessively oversized bullet down the bore accidentally. Several people over at surplusrifleforum.com report good accuracy with .311-313-sized jacketed bullets, so boolits of appropriate size should work well also.

Matt

[Multigunner]

.312 Hornady J-word bullets should work very well in this rifle. They work fine in .314-318 .303 bores. You may want to use commercial cases which may give more neck clearance than milspec cases (not sure of that).
Otherwise make a chamber cast to determine just how much clearance you'd have with cast boollits sized around .314.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I have been loading for a good friend that has a sportered `09 in `06 with the original barrel. We found it loves Nosler .30 cal. 180 gr. Ballistic Tip bullets. I mean that this rifle is a 1 holer at 100 yds. with 3 shot groups from a rest! I have heard that some of these rechambered rifles had a different tube installed at the time to improve accuracy. I would do a bore dia. slugging to determine exactly what bore dia. you are dealing with.Robert

[Larry Gibson]

There are numerous excellent .311/.312 bullets available from 60 gr HPs to 123 - 124 gr to 150 SPs to 174 MKs to 180 gr SP and several inbtween. There is also a plethora of .312 - .314 cast bullets from 85 gr to 220 gr. All of which makes the Argentine '09 in 31-'06 and excellent cartridge for both j and cast bullets. I used a Redding bushing die with an appropriate sized bushing the just NS the fired cases for .002 - .003" neck tension on any of the above mentioned .31 cal bullets. Performance and accuracy were excellent. I suggest giving the current barrel a try before considering other options. It is an excellent cartridge.

Larry Gibson

[Uncle Grinch]

It's a simple matter of using the right boolit or bullet.

[inthebeech]

One (or two) follow up's...

Aparently the standard 06 chambering can tollerate a neck area expanded to hold these larger diameter (especially cast) boolits? With a (worst case) .314 or so cast boolit which would likely only get swaged upon seating by a mil or so, that takes us to .313 and add to this two case wall thcknesses, we are not too fat here (dangerous pressures) with a loaded cartridge?

And Larry I think answered my only other question; in order to not swage the bullet down too much on seating caused by a standard sizing die, it seems that a bushing style neck sizer die is recommended?

Thanks everyone for your help. I'm picking up the 1909 today and was going straight to my smith to pull the barrel but based on very useful input here, I suppose I'll give the 31-06 a whirl.

[KCSO]

Been there done that and if the bore is 311 you have no probems just load 311 bullets for jacketed and 312-13 for cast and you will be fine. My friend has the rifle now and it shots very well with 311 bullets and is no problem to load.

[FAsmus]

As the other fellows have said - just treat it as a 31'06.

I would advise one additional step: Measure the bore/groove diameters and feed it bullets that will fit your barrel as well as possible.

The 0.308 jacketed bullets will shoot in barrels with slightly oversize groves - the Europeans do it all the time. Here, being able to make our bullets fit the barrels they're to be fired in - there is no problem.

Good morning,
Forrest

[Ed in North Texas]

One (or two) follow up's...

Aparently the standard 06 chambering can tollerate a neck area expanded to hold these larger diameter (especially cast) boolits? With a (worst case) .314 or so cast boolit which would likely only get swaged upon seating by a mil or so, that takes us to .313 and add to this two case wall thcknesses, we are not too fat here (dangerous pressures) with a loaded cartridge?

And Larry I think answered my only other question; in order to not swage the bullet down too much on seating caused by a standard sizing die, it seems that a bushing style neck sizer die is recommended?

Thanks everyone for your help. I'm picking up the 1909 today and was going straight to my smith to pull the barrel but based on very useful input here, I suppose I'll give the 31-06 a whirl.

I think avoiding the use of GI -06 brass might be in order if you are concerned with the neck clearance of the chamber. As for neck sizing, I think a bushing style NS die isn't a necessity. While the bushing style allows fairly precise sizing, an appropriate caliber* NS die should work quite well when properly adjusted. Enjoy your 7.65x63mm rifle.

* e.g. 7.65x53 or .303 Brit. Obviously a short case like the x53 would require the die to be set high in the press for the 63mm case length.

[EDG]

To check the chamber neck diameter expand a (FL sized .30-06) case neck to a funnel that is a little bit oversize.
Fit it under the extractor and shove it into the chamber with the bolt and extract. The funnel end will be squeezed down to the chamber neck diameter. Just measure it with a mike or a caliper. If you are skeptical just run another case through and check it.

[Larry Gibson]

* e.g. 7.65x53 or .303 Brit. Obviously a short case like the x53 would require the die to be set high in the press for the 63mm case length.

Problem is the '06 at the shoulder is quite a bit larger in diameter than the .303 or 7.65 Argentine. Thus the '06 case most often won't go into either of those dies to NS. One can get an '06 bushing die and shorten it by taking a bit off the base and then load all 3 + numerous others like the 7.7 jap. With and appropriate selection of 3 - 5 bushings you can size the necks for bullets of .308 - .314 or larger. Or with a .308W bushing die and the same bushing you can NS them all for the correct neck tension w/o having to shorten the die. Lots of other cartridges can be loaded for from .243 up wards of the 338-'06 with the same die and the right bushings.

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

I have shot .308 bullets in my 1891 Arg. Mauser and the accuracy was not bad, about 2" at 100 yards. .312" bullets go into less than 1" but 2" is still not bad for a mil-surp.

[FAsmus]

Leadman;

Why bother with the undersize bullets at all?

Good day,
Forrest