First Trapdoor results

[jonk]

I got a trapdoor 10 days ago and got to shoot it yesterday for the first time. Any comment or suggestions are welcome.

Load 1: 405 FN Lasercast (buddy gave me 5). 12.5gr Trailboss. Low recoil, sounded like a gallery round! So so accuracy- first two shots within 1/2" of each other at 100 y, then opened up to a total of about 8".

Load 2: 405 Lee HB- soft lead, roughly 35:1 alloy. LLA, 12 gr Trail boss. About the same results as with the lasercasts.

Load 3: 405 gr. Lee HB- soft lead, 20 gr. SR 4759. Shot high. About a 6" group.

Load 4: Same bullet. 43 gr by weight of FFG Pyrodex equivalent. Felt wad. Bullet base filled with bore butter. Very slight compression. Shot high. I only shot 3 but 2 went in the black so who knows?

Load 5: Same bullet. 60 gr FFG Schuetzen. Felt wad, bore butter. Slight compression. Shot about the same as the Pyrodex but with a lot more smoke.

So what load should I work on?

[montana_charlie]

So what load should I work on?
Not nearly enough information to answer that question.

First, you have to decide if you want to use smokeless, black, or BP substitute.
Once you know that, pick one and develop the load that works best...with that bullet...in that rifle.

As for the loads you described, we don't know if they were made with 3 rounds, or 30. Thirty rounds in eight inches might show a hint of promise, but three rounds (with two almost touching) just indicates randomness.

In any case, a load that can't do better than six or eight inches at a hundred is only good for gongs...where group size doesn't matter as long as you can hear the ring.
You certainly wouldn't want to subject a deer to that degree of imprecision...

If you decide to concentrate on BP loads, I can describe a load development procedure.
If you want 'expert instructions' for black powder loads in trapdoors, I know of a book you might want to buy.

If you prefer smokeless loads, I would refer you to the loading manuals.

What numbers did you get when you slugged the barrel and chamber?
How do those numbers compare with your bullet?
CM

[jonk]

I haven't slugged the barrel (yet) and am shooting the bullets as cast- which are rather fat, .462. I had to bell the brass with the case expander quite a bit to get them to start feeding, but once they did, they went in fine and chamber fine as well. So no issue there; running them a bit on the fat side shouldn't pose a problem.

I should like to develop a smokeless and blackpowder load. If I go any farther with substitute it will just be screwing around. I've never had much luck with black powder loads in cartridges, to be honest. So far as the smokeless loads go, I got the trail boss data from IMR's website, the SR 4759 data here; I'd try 3031 and 4198 happily as well as both are on my shelf- though seeing slower powders used at safe pressure levels (like 4895) and the unburnt powder left, I'd be suspicious of those.

I fired 6 shots each with the smokeless, and 4 each with the BP and pyrodex. The first shot was pyrodex and I wasn't aiming- shooting from the hip.

I guess I'd say I'm experienced enough at reloading in general to fool around with the smokeless on my own; but if you could suggest something for BP, I'd be appreciative.

[montana_charlie]

but if you could suggest something for BP, I'd be appreciative.
There are so many variables, it doesn't pay to worry about them when just starting. So, pick a known good lube for BPCR, and a standard primer. Just stay with those until your results get so consistent a change would actually be detectable.

Decide on a case size. I mean, are you going to resize them, or shoot as-fired cases? Once development has reached it's logical end, you can go back and try the 'other' one.
(I prefer fire-formed cases and thumb-seated bullets for bench shooting.)

Since your bullets chamber easily without sizing, stay with that.

You will eventually need a method of compressing powder in the case, so you may as well get what you need, now. That can be as simple as a very hard bullet cast in the regular mould, then sized down to be able to enter the case without tension.
Otherwise, you will need a compression die or a compression plug for your neck expanding die. (Setting the neck expander up for powder compression is 'no problemo' if you opt for as-fired cases.)

Decide on your cartridge overall length.
Figure how deep your bullet/wad combination needs to be set to achieve that length.
Adjust your compression 'tool' (might be your bullet seating die) for that depth.
Compression is done by charging the case with 'settled' powder, inserting the wad, then packing the powder down to the right depth. A 'soft' bullet is not capable of doing that without deformation.

Load enough BP in the case so that...with minimal compression...your bullet firmly bottoms on the over powder wad, when seated to the depth determined above. This is the lightest charge you will use...and may not be very accurate.
Fire five or ten at a target to see how they do.

Some form of fouling management is usually required for BP, so pick one (wiping between shots, or blow tubing) and do it as consistently as you can manage.

Back at the loading bench...charge another cartridge with the same amount of powder as the first batch, then tap the case on the bench ten times to settle the charge. Now add enough powder to bring it up to the same depth as your first set of charges.
Dump the charge out to weigh it, so you know how much is there. That way you can repeat it.
Load up a set of cases with this new amount of powder, and 'settle' each charge.
Do the 'minimal compression' thing again, and seat the bullet.
This load is your first real test load. The first was just for a baseline to judge improvement.
Load up five or ten using the new powder weight, and see how they do, while keeping the 'fouling management' procedure as much like the first session as possible.

From now on you will just increase the powder charge in known increments until your accuracy peaks, then starts to level out or fall off.
(When you get tired of tapping the case on the bench to settle powder, you will probably build a drop tube...)
As the charge increases, the compression automatically increases as you are mashing it down enough to maintain the same bullet seating depth.

When the amount of compression gets up to about .4 or .5 inches, you have pretty well maxed out on powder. You might have even reached the point where it bulges the case. If you haven't found an acceptable load by then...you either missed the 'sweet spot', or that bullet is never going to perform for you.

CM

[SharpsShooter]

Load 4: Same bullet. 43 gr by weight of FFG Pyrodex equivalent. Felt wad. Bullet base filled with bore butter. Very slight compression. Shot high. I only shot 3 but 2 went in the black so who knows?

Load 5: Same bullet. 60 gr FFG Schuetzen. Felt wad, bore butter. Slight compression. Shot about the same as the Pyrodex but with a lot more smoke.

I'd wager you are sending the felt wad along for the ride stuffed up the base of the boolit. You won't see accuracy that way because it affects the skirt obduration and the weight of the wad destabilizes the boolit. Lube the boolit grooves and seat the boolit gently over 65-68gr of Black. The base filled with lube and wad are not good a accuracy combo. Better yet go to a plain base Lyman 457125 and 55gr of black and it will shoot.

SS

[13Echo]

In my 1884 Springfield and im my friend's I've found the Lee 405gr hollow base Lee version of the 1873 bullet and the SAECO version of the 500gr 1881 bullet shoot very well if loaded much like the arsenals did. Both are quite accurate in our rifles, however the Lyman version of the 1881 bullet has gained length and weight in the last 126 years and is too long to stabilize in my rifle.

My rifle prefers the 500 gr SAECO over 70 grs of compressed FFg Goex with a single wax paper wad. Bo's prefers the 405 gr Lee bullet over 59grs of FFg Goex with no wad. Both bullets are shot as cast and measure about .460" and are cast of 30:1 alloy, lubed with a good black powder lube, and both are crimped over the front band or crimp band. This is a fair replica of the original arsenal loads and they do shoot well. Obviously other recipes will work, but this seems a good starting place for a good, reliable load for the old soldiers.

Jerry Liles

[hivoltfl]

I have had fair luck with a LEE 405 PB and 34gr of 3031 shoots better at 100 than 50 yds due to sights being on at 100 compared to 6 inches high at 50.

Rick

[Buckshot]

.............TD Springfield bbls can be all over the place so far as measurements go. Gotta slug that dude and measure as close as possible with those 3 lands and grooves. If the rifle is in good shape, they can deliver some superlative accuracy.

...............Buckshot

[jonk]

Well I'll take it as said that the felt wad might be going along for the ride; however, in my post on the front-stuffer board, I questioned that wouldn't an over powder wad in a muzzleloader shooting minie balls somehow have a negative effect on accuracy? I was told no. I don't see the difference, other than to say, who knows- just gotta try it.

The next experiment will feature bullshop's BP lube with the bullet seated directly on the powder. So far as BP goes anyhow; we'll see what comes next for smokeless- probably some ballistic filler over the trailboss to see what that does.

[fourarmed]

I'll go along with most of the suggestions to stick with one powder charge until you work out the bullet parameters. I will add that one of Ken Waters' "Pet Loads" used a full case of H-4831.

[Reaper]

In my 1884, the following load works real well:

WW Cases
WLR primer
36gr. 3031
Lee 457-405F as cast
Lars white label lube
Chronos 1275fps pretty consistent

A friend has a full size steel buffalo set at 425yds. If I do my part, it smacks it every time.

[PatMarlin]

They have the steel buffalo in SD? Figures.. :mrgreen: