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View Full Version : The poor mans 12 bore is born



Hackleback
09-03-2007, 09:27 AM
This one of those projects that seems to take a while to come together, but it finely has. I purchased a New England Ultra slug hunter from another CB member some time ago. Last week I got around to scoping it up with a Leopold M8 4X. It still needs a hammer extension before it goes in the woods, but is it shootable if one is careful.

Loads consist of some AA hulls loaded with 100 gr (by volume) of Goex FF, than a 0.120" card wad, 1/4" Ballistics Products felt wad (look to be some synthetic material, not wool) then a Dixie Slug that had been plan lubed in SPG. This will all fit in a 2 3/4" hull and be crimped with a bit of compression.

How did these loads shoot? Not bad for the first outing. I only made up 6 rounds since I did not know how they would shoot. Recoil out of the USH was about like a standard high brass field load. I think that I could up the amount of powder a fair bit to see if I can get more velocity. Hard to tell what the accuracy is like since I used several to get on paper. The Dixie slugs DO put BIG holes in stuff! I also did shoot some older commercial sabot rounds and they shot well. The load that KICKED was some 3" Federal forester slugs- these things will set you right back!!

Lessons learned- BP must either burn hotter or longer than smokeless. A quick look down the muzzle revealed globules of red plastic that I assume are the hulls. I also think that the "felt" wads might be melting as well. I will continue to use the plastic hulls since they are available, but heavy brass hulls are the way to go and I will be purchasing some Rocky Mtn. Ctg. brass when I round up some $$. The brass will look much more classy as well. I was able to recover two Dixie Slugs from the backstop. one appeared like it had tumbled and hit the backstop backwards. I think this is from on of the first shoot that I took at 25 yards that hit the grass before the back stop. The other was from behind a 50 yard target. This one was in very good shape and not deformed much. The Dixie slugs are hard as advertised. I intend to continue using the Dixie Slugs that can be had at a fair price, plus they have been good to work with. I do plan on purchasing a 12 bore mould in the future as well.

For those of you that like to put big holes in stuff, this rig is more fun than should be allowed. With warm/hot loads, I think that one would be able to take anything in NA at a reasonable distance.

Stay tuned, more to come!.............

waksupi
09-03-2007, 09:49 AM
Hackleback, those red globs you are seeing in your barrel, are most likely unburnt sulphur. This generally indicates the load is burning efficiently, and is about the right charge to be using. Depending on weather conditions, they may, or may not be present in the barrel. Temperature and humidity will affect thier appearance.

only1asterisk
09-03-2007, 11:07 AM
I've seen the black in Defense Technology loads melt hulls before.

David

nitroproof
10-22-2007, 09:42 PM
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=554245

Magtech cases are WAY cheaper than Rocky Mtn.

Sounds like a fun project... I go for card & fiber wads I think you would want 11 ga. wads for these all brass cases. 11 ga. wads are available from Circle Fly:

http://www.circlefly.com/

Mk42gunner
10-23-2007, 10:23 AM
I wonder how paper cases would work? I believe that Federal still makes a papercased trap load.


Robert

only1asterisk
10-23-2007, 01:53 PM
Magtech cases are WAY cheaper than Rocky Mtn.

But not as strong. The Magtechs have a balloon head case (not to mention the case ID is too big for a properly sized bullet). Rocky Mountain is the way to go unless you can make your own.

David

Hackleback
10-25-2007, 09:54 AM
Another batch is ready for the range. This time the load is 120 gr (by vol) of FF & FFF. I do not think that I am ready for the 7 dram BP loads that are mentioned in a SSE article!

doc25
11-05-2007, 06:36 PM
Why are you using Black powder? Is it for a special hunting season? Up here it's a muzzle loading season so we couldn't use that.

omgb
11-05-2007, 10:33 PM
There's not danger in blowing up a MagTech case with BP. They hold up to stout smokeless loads just fine, baloon head or not.

The real issue is that MagTech brass cases like the old Winchester, Remington and others, have a larger interior diameter than paper or plastic cases. Thus, the slug won't fit unless you change the dia. of the bore and cast a larger slug. Definately not the cheap way to go.

I managed to stumble on 5 flats of primed and unfired federal cases ablut a year ago, for, get this..... $5.00 a flat:drinks:

I guess even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while. Anyway, BP is definately the way to go and paper or brass is the case of choice. BP burns way hotter and way longer than smokeless and will fill the bore with little melted plastic balls that are the Dickens to remove:(

You have built my dream gun. I wanted to build the same dang thing. Did you know that at least one company makes slug molds other than Lyman and in fact, IIRC, they even have a special 12 bore slug, shot, fat, round nose and one big lube groove. i just can't remember who. They do custom iron, brass and aluminum moulds "n" somthing or other. Geez, I wish I didn't have brain farts like this.

jh45gun
11-06-2007, 12:33 AM
Yea I am curious too why black. Not that I am adverse to black I own two 54 cal rifles one 12 guage shotgun and a 32 Cal and I switched from the powders like 777 back to black. So I have no issues with using black I use it too in my muzzle loaders but cartridges I use smokeless.

omgb
11-06-2007, 12:53 AM
OK boys, now I may be speak'n outa turn here but I think not. The reason behind using BP is cuz it's kewl...plain and simple. In a 12 bore elephant gun you just have to shoot black. It's sorta zen-like. You know, the white man's burden, R Kipling, Scotch and soda in the evening, my gun bearer at my side, slaying simba in the tall grass and all of that stuff.

Damn boys, any fool could use smokeless where's the fun in that? And 777 or Pyrodex? Pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase! Sacralidge, defilement, unclean. When stepping forth with the mighty 12 bore of yester year one must use the only true 19th century powder, the holy black.

A tad over stated but you get the idea. Big cartridge, + big powder, + big bullet + big smoke = big fun.:castmine:

That's my take on it anyway. YMMV

Hackleback
11-06-2007, 08:28 AM
Why black? Well, a couple of reasons:

1) it's fun to make big wads of smoke that cover up half the line!!

2) I did not have any data to load these big slugs other than an article in SSE some time back. The max BP loads out of an Encore were 7 drams (175 +_ gr) in a brass case. Can you say ouch!! I figured that if I started with 100 gr, I would not kill myself. 100 gr is not bad, much like a highbrass field load.

3) I had some FF BP on hand

4) it's fun to make big wads of smoke that cover up half the line!!

I find that BP loads are fairy simple to make; Add BP, fill extra space with fiber wads, add hunk-o-lead, compress slightly.

I will likely move into the realm of smokeless one of these days whan I have some time (spare time, what is that?????).

BYW, Should have another range report this week!!

Hackleback
11-06-2007, 08:32 AM
BTW, I am looking for some 3" 12 ga hulls for a bit of added room. If someone has some thay are willing to donate to this project, I could cover shipping.

Thank you

MGD
11-06-2007, 10:35 PM
Let me know when you want them, I have new Cheddite 3" hulls at the house. I'll bring them by the shop, or jusy stop by some time.

Hackleback
11-07-2007, 08:50 AM
Took out a hand full of 120 gr loads that I had make up. These included about 6 each of goex FF and some old FFF that I had traded for. These were loaded in some AA hulls and consist of BP, over card wad , slug- I am about out of room. Off the bench, these about all the fun I want to have!! The FFF loads realy romp you. If I go higher, will need to use a standing rest. THey do produced a nice deep resounding boom compared to the deer rifles that tend to crack. Large white puffs of smoke are a bonus. These loads did get some attention at the range. Had some old gent watching me every intently but never did say anything. I forgot my cleaning rod so I was not able to wipe, but accuracy especially for the FF loads looks to be MOD (minute of deer) out to 150 yards or so. 50 yd groups were about the size of a large tea cup. Recovered several slugs that were in good condition. Will post some pix this eve if I can find the time.

MGD, thank you for the offer- I will hook up with you soon!

Hackleback
11-13-2007, 02:49 PM
Pix. The ones on the left and right are Dixie the middle one are forester slugs, some I shot others I found. As you can see, Dixie slugs deform a bit, bit not very much.


http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc156/hackleback/nov1307010.jpg

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc156/hackleback/nov1307006.jpg

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc156/hackleback/nov1307008.jpg

Dixie Slugs
12-25-2007, 08:08 AM
Since Dixie Slugs has come up in this thread, I will add a few comments without being run off for pushing our products.
First of all, the 20 ga slug/bullets fired appear to have been shot into sand and sand is hard on any slug or bullet....but is an excellent way to stress test one slug/bullet against another.
Since a 20 ga with a rifled barrel is really a big bore .625 caliber rifle......some thoughts should be considered......it is a big game setup!
With that in mind consider this...tissue damage is caused by Meplat Area and Velocity.....that is why the Dixie slug has a big meplat. The excellent pictures show less deformation the the softer swaged lead ones....that's what breaks big green bones in game.
As for blackpowder, my friend Dr.Charlie Sharp, did quite a bit of work with the Dixie 20 ga .625"-500 gr slug/ullets and an TC Encore. In the smokless power tests....34 grs of Blue Dot was a real Thumper, Recoil in a light gun was terrible, but we shoot that load in our NEF Ultra's all the time. Dropping down to 32 grs of Blue Dot makes a nice load in the NEF Tracker and various pump guns.
Rest assued that there is a growing interest in full bore slug/bullets in rifled barel shotguns......and it's great fun for cast bullet shooters.
Remember that everything you have learned about cast bullets in handguns and rifles, still hold true with big bore bullets in rifled shotgun barrels....they are just bigger!
Regards, James

Hackleback
12-25-2007, 03:16 PM
A couple of notes:

The above slugs (photos) are 12 ga, though for discussion of the performance of full bore, hard cast slugs, it is a bit of a mute point.

The work that Dr. Sharp did (if it is the same work that was published in The Single Shot Exchange ) was also 12 ga; again for the sake of discussion, a mute point.

Short barreled shot guns are favored by many since they are compact, quick pointing with quick follow-up shots. The performance of forester type slugs on larger big game (like brown bears in Alaska) appears to be poor to dismal. The forester slugs are too soft (pure lead or close to it) and are hollow and have a tendency to over "expand" when hitting large bone or dense tissue. Some also think that the frontal area of largew slugs are too large for good penatration on dangerous game. I would like too see/hear if dixie slugs have been used on bears and the like. If they perform very well, you could have a nice niche market in Alaska and Canada, with a bit of marketing.

I did hunt deer with my 12 bore thid year but did not have a chance to take a deer with it- will have to wait til next year.

I intend to get a 20 ga H&R USH in the future, I just have not found one yet.

Dixie makes a good product and have been easy to work with...... Thanks for the help!

Dixie Slugs
01-01-2008, 04:03 PM
Interesting indeed! There is no doubt that blackpowder loads are interesting and we must remember the first Paradox loads were loaded with it. The Brits loaded the early Paradox loads with a hard .730"-730 gr bullet at 1000'/". When they with to smokeless Cordite they bumped the velocity up to 1200'/"
Now, why did the come up with these specs. First of all the bullet was squared (diameter=length) so they could use an existing Ball rifling twist. Then they balanced out the size/weight and velocity....for recoil in the double guns. Later, they made lighter bullets at a higher velocity......in their heavy fully rifled barrels.
Dixie decided to go with the original bullet (.730"-730 grs) specs at the approx smokeless velocity......ours is 1250'/" from a 20" barrel. There is a point of adding weight or velocity that there is not much returns.....except more recoil!
There is a misunderstanding as to which Brit guns which were dsesigned for paper hulls and which was designed for brass hulls. Those guns designed for brass hulls....the lands and grooves were larger (due to the thinner walls of brass hullls)! Unless you want to spend bucks for turned braas hulls (same wall thickness as paper/plastic), it's best the stay with a straight walled plastic hull.
Or.....figure out how your are going to load a .730" bullet into a +.760" inside diameter brass hull.
Now...what is a resonable velocity? In shotgun-only states, velocity is being pushed for extended ranges. In normal hunting ranges where you would want the smashing knockdown of full bore shotgun rounds....1250'/" is more than one needs! Sighted in at 75 yards.....+2" at 50yards and -4" at 100 yards! Plenty good enough for that range. Todd Corder put down a 2000 pound sick Angus bull with that load!
I'm not about to get into an agruement over heavier slug/bullets than 730 grs. If the Brits were satisfied with that weight in Africa/India, who am I to argue with their choice......against some very toothy game!
Just some thoughts.....Regards, James

shunka
03-07-2008, 11:25 PM
Howdy Hackleback
- you may find, as the cowboy shooters did, that plastic hulls are "somewhat" ok, but it has been observed, BP does develop some high temperatures leading to melting plastic. As a result the cowboy crowd has learned the lessons from the past and generally perferr paper or brass shells, and paper, cork, or composite wads (the modern plastic wads seem to melt badly, leaving "strings" of hard-to-clean plastic crap in the barrel) . Paper hulls are great fun to load as long as you keep them dry. If you pick up an antique shotshell loading kit you can put beautiful roll crimps on the paper hulls! In a large bore barrel (28 ga ~ .54 cal or larger) I would advise against an extended diet of 3F as the rate of burn can lead to interesting temperatures and pressures, And it kinda hurts the shoulder. The most important part of 3F in .52~.54 and up, however is how much more it erodes the chamber region. In a 12 bore quality 2F should work quite well, and if you shoot over fresh snow you will see any unburnt powder. That is usually a sign that you are not burning it all and you can back off the load.

good luck with your new boomer!
shunka