45 acp for deer

[pupsdad]

anyone use the 45 acp for deer? I have been thinking of trying it out this year but thought I might see if there was a reason not to use it.

[Tatume]

It's not legal here in Virginia.

[phonejack]

Here is my "one" day experience. I shot a deer with my rifle , it ran off, out of sight. While blood trailing it , an older hunter called me and wanted me to find a deer he shot (he was 73) I left my rifle on my atv to track his deer. (My load that day was a 200gr cast at 950') I found the deer, still alive and upright, so I head-shot it. It was a thru and thru shot. Went back to find my deer , leaving the rifle on the atv again. Found the deer on the ground, but still alive. I had shot it too far back. A bullet behind the ear quickly dispatched the deer. Since this deer was already dead I decided to shoot the deer behind the shoulder since that is the most preferred shot. My +P load did not exit the body. So,based on this, I won't be using a 45acp as a primary arm. Hope this helps
I told this story on another forum and got slammed by quite a few "range warriors" who obviously didn't hunt ,much less kill deer.

[45 2.1]

In my state, we have the 500 ft. lbs. muzzle energy law. Handgun hunting was allowed in '91. My first deer was with a 45 ACP wheel gun. 35 yard shot 1/3 up the body just behind the shoulder quartering across body cavity and out between the last two ribs. 70 yard run and dead deer. Don't shoot too far and place the shot well..... stay off bone unless you brain it. Make very sure the bullet or boolit will expand or transfer energy well (like a wide flat nose) as this cartridge is limited.

[rintinglen]

Not legal in a lot of places. Not a first choice even where it is. Here a cartridge has to produce 500 pounds-feet to be legal. I suppose some 45 ACP loads might manage that, but not many. My handgun hunting has been limited to .357 and 44 Magnums.

[freebullet]

500 ft lbs is possible w45acp. When I take mine, the shots are measured in feet instead of yards. I have fired a controlled pair on a medium size deer @14', it fell over and expired. I wouldn't try it much past 25yards unless it was already hit.

[9.3X62AL]

I would far prefer a 45 AR revolver firing 250 grain SWCs @ 900 FPS to a stuttergun firing 230 grainers of any configuration @ 825-850 FPS that could feed through most self-loaders. I do hunt deer with a 200 grain cast RCBS 10mm BruceB Softpoint, though. These exit the muzzle @ 1200 FPS. This is the only conventional autopistol/caliber I deem adequate for deer hunting, and I won't chance a shot past 50 yards.

[pupsdad]

Think I will carry it as a side arm to back up the muzzle loader or contender take a shot it I get one real close thanks for the replys

[DougGuy]

It's not legal here in Virginia.

Unless they changed the law there, it used to be 400ft/lbs which made the .45 acp legal.

Heavy bullet +P load would take deer under 50yd without question, but you STILL have to place the shot well.

[NickSS]

The 45 ACP is not allowed for big game where I live but I have shot one deer with mine. It was on privet property and damaging fruit trees as such I could shoot it legally. I shot it at 15 foot range with a double tap in the chest. The deer took off so I pegged to more shot at it and then it was gone. I tracked it for 75 yards and found it dead. All four shot hit the anmal. The first two hid behind the front leg and penetrated both lungs but did not exit. The third hit at the rear of the rig cage and traveled forward into the lings where I found it. The last one hit it in the rump and penetrated almost the entire ham. The load was 200 gr speer Hollow cavity bullets with big open hollow points at about 925 fps. None of the bullets expanded. Personally I do not handgun hunt as I like more power than I can get in a handgun for any big game.

[Tatume]

Unless they changed the law there (Virginia), it used to be 400ft/lbs which made the .45 acp legal.
Heavy bullet +P load would take deer under 50yd without question, but you STILL have to place the shot well.

The law says 350 ft lb, which is miniscule. Most factory loads won't even make this inadequate level. It is not a difficult trick to load the 45 ACP to exceed 350 ft lb, but that won't save you a ticket. The VDGIF goes by factory ammo publications, and the game wardens consider the 45 ACP to be an illegal cartridge for deer hunting. They're not going to stand around arguing ballistics, they're going to write the ticket and let the judge sort it out. The judge is not going to waste a lot of time arguing either.

Bottom line, the 45 ACP is a poor choice for deer hunting.

Take care, Tom

[Rodfac]

Just a cpl thoughts....if there's a barrel length requirement, some auto loaders might not be lawful. Too, you made a comment about carrying it as a sidearm while hunting with a muzzle loader...not legal in some jurisdictions as well.

I've killed one doe with a .45 ACP, using a S&W 6-1/2" 1955 Target Model. She'd been hit by a car, stumbled, dragged herself into our woods and was laying down in the creek when we found her, and she'd been there for a few days. Pitiful to say the least...you could smell her festering, compound fractured leg from 30 yds away. I shot her in the forehead, putting her out of her misery....it was one of the saddest sights I've ever witnessed in 60 years of woods stomping. Best Regards, Rod

HTH's, Rod

[DxieLandMan]

It is legal in Alabama as long as you use mushrooming ammunition. I personally would recommend against it.

[wch]

I have shot one deer with my 1911; it was injured and supine and I shot it through the head with 230 gr ball at about 10 feet.
Although death appeared instantaneous, I certainly would not recommend it as a deer cartridge.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I talked to a guy who shot a deer with a 185gr hollow point from his Ruger BH. He dropped it with one shot. We discussed how the load was very light, it was not a game kill. He was working for the game dept on an eradication program. The 45 ACP is not legal in this State for deer.

[Char-Gar]

Any centerfire is legal for deer in Texas. Back in the late 60's I carried a Colt Gold Cup 45 Auto with me while hunting deer. I was hunting with a rifle, but carried the handgun in case I got a close up shot, which means under 25 yards. The load was 230 Keith SWC (linotype) 452423 over a dose of Bulleye. I shot two Texas Hill Country whitetail with that load and both were through and through wounds that resulted in very dead deer, very quickly.

My first centerfire handgun was a GI Remington-Rand 1911A1 and I used it for everything, because it was all I had and all I could afford. They were cheap ($35.00) in those days. The result was I used it for things folks said it were unsuited for, but it worked for me every time. So when I upgraded to the Gold Cup, I continued to use a 45 Auto because it was what I was familiar with.

I would never recommend a 45 Auto as a weapon to hunt deer. There are far better rifles and hanguns suited for that purpose. But, if you happen to have one with you, the loads is right, and a deer walks out in front of you at close range, the handgun will kill said deer.

[KCSO]

Not legal for deer here in Nebraska but I have destroyed a few with the 45 ACP and they drp right now if you can put the bullet in the right spot. With a 210 SW over 7 grains of Unique the bullet goes right through and leaks blood from both sides. Since I carry a 1911 all the time and have to finish off a lot of road kill I have some expirience with the round, again not what I would choose to go hunting with but it will do the job IF you are a carefull shot and place the bullet right.

[35remington]

Actually it's legal for deer in Nebraska if it makes 400 ft/lbs. at fifty yards. Some of the +P loads of 185 to 230 grain weight will make that.

[Rafe Covington]

Yep people told me a 10 MM wouldn't kill a deer either, if you are willing to hunt up close like a bow hunter the 45 ACP will work.

Don't you love it when somebody says yes I killed deer with a 45 ACP but they don't recommend it. It was ok for them but they have decided you aren't qualified to do it. JMHO

Rafe

[jh45gun]

Back in the old days I killed a few whitetails with a Ruger Single Six using 22 mags. All neck shots and I never lost a deer. I sure as heck would not feel under gunned with a 45 ACP but chances are if I kill any more close range deer these days I will be using my Rossi Ranch Hand in 45 Colt.

[pupsdad]

My 45 acp is a revolver I load it with 230 grain cast. Used to use a 1911 a lot got away from the autos just like the single action revolvers more. Never cared for my brass flying all over the place.

[HiVelocity]

Well, I plan to hunt deer and hogs, within 50 yards, with my Springfield. Planned load is NOE's 230gr (small) HP ACWW, "fcvan's" plain based gas check (yep, you heard that right), over 5.9 grains of Titegroup. I'm estimating ~1000 fps.

The 45 ACP has been a manstopper, one-shot DRT, for eon's. Personally, I'm sure range and accuracy is key. BTW, I've yet to see any 45 ACP ammo advertised for hunting purposes. I'm pretty confident in my handloads.

HV

[grampa243]

i carry my glock 30 as back up in deer season with +P loads.

i figure if a muzzle loader can kill deer at their relative low speeds a handgun can too.

was thinking i might hunt with my cap and ball 44 cal. 1858 rem. this year.

[Lloyd Smale]

i did it a couple years ago I guess just to prove to myself it could be done. Would i do it again? heck no, i see no use in it when i have better guns for the job. So yes it can be done so now you dont have to do it yourself. Put away that 45acp and grab a 44 mag!

[Case Stuffer]

Opions are just that and if taken as recomendations do so at your own possible peril.

Legal? Check you state hunting laws as they are not same anywhere much less every where.

A .22 as in LR is not enough power for self defence yet it has killed many humans and also deer.

I remember back when the .44 Mag. was the world's most powerful handgun and all the popular gun magazine writers were huntimg dangerious game in Africa with it. Funny thing is the .44 Mag. was only about 1/2 as powerful as the Win. 30-30 which some say is merely a pop gun and not really adequate for deer.

.45 cal. is plenty big enough given a decent boolit, loading, range and shot placement a deer would go down,IMO. My .45 ACP carry load for years was a Lee 200 Gr. SWC ( good meplate),18 BHN (hard enough to penetrate), over 6.2gr. WW-231 which ran around 900 FPS out of two of my 45s.

[MtGun44]

Several friends have taken deer with 1911s with IPSC loads - 200 H&G 68 SWC at about 900 fps.

Full penetration on broadside lung shots, not immediate drop, so - being IPSC shooters they
kept banging. Each was dead soon with 3-4 holes thru lungs. One would have probably
worked. IIRC all or most shots were thru and thru, hard cast commercial H&G 68s.

Bill

[Thumbcocker]

Illegal in Illinois. Read the DNR regs. No semi autos and minimum case lengths. Also minimum of 500 ft lbs energy.

[grampa243]

what we are talking about here goes well with this thread.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?131736-Your-longest-ethical-shot

[gunfan]

Close range with maximum loads (200 grains and hard cast) would seem to be the formula for killing deer. 35-55 yards would seem to be optimal.

Scott

[45 2.1]

Illegal in Illinois. Read the DNR regs. No semi autos and minimum case lengths. Also minimum of 500 ft lbs energy.

I did...... See page 17 to refresh yourself......no minimum case length for straight walled cartridges. The no semi-auto and 500 ft-lbs muzzle energy are correct though.

[MtGun44]

Isn't Ill. a wonderful place for gun owners.

Bill

[felix]

Well, maybe it was back in the 40's it all started to go downhill in Illinois. Around Salem there was/still is a cross country high voltage line. My dad shot at a crow from the hiway and misjudged the distance by enough to slice in half the wire the crow was sitting on. In my personal experiences, that wire had to have an EXACT center shot to bust the load-carrying wire that is composed of steel, rather than the wrapped aluminum/copper current carrying conductor. The voltage/current was high enough to see severe sparks where the wire touched the ground, so there must have been enough power in that line to supply many, many end customers. And, that was long before monitoring computers which today would make it mere inconvenience to the customers as a brownout instead of a blowout. ... felix

[Wayne Dobbs]

I've killed about 10 Texas white tails with the .45 ACP/AR. About half were with the standard pressure Winchester 230 grain Ranger-T JHP load and the others with a 255 Keith SWC at about 900 fps in AR brass. Ranges were 20-30 yards from bow blinds and all were one shot affairs. These were fired from a Smith 625 .45 ACP Mountain Gun and the standard response from heart/lung hits was to run about 25-50 yards and fall over dead. Two of the deer were bang/flops. Wound channels were great with full penetration and the deer were tasty. If you keep ranges reasonable and select the shots carefully, it will kill deer all day long. If it won't kill a non-aggressive white tail reliably, why is it so popular for shooting angry bad guys?

[Fishman]

For the win!


I've killed about 10 Texas white tails with the .45 ACP/AR. About half were with the standard pressure Winchester 230 grain Ranger-T JHP load and the others with a 255 Keith SWC at about 900 fps in AR brass. Ranges were 20-30 yards from bow blinds and all were one shot affairs. These were fired from a Smith 625 .45 ACP Mountain Gun and the standard response from heart/lung hits was to run about 25-50 yards and fall over dead. Two of the deer were bang/flops. Wound channels were great with full penetration and the deer were tasty. If you keep ranges reasonable and select the shots carefully, it will kill deer all day long. If it won't kill a non-aggressive white tail reliably, why is it so popular for shooting angry bad guys?

[pipehand]

Wayne, I bet they were tasty. You hit'em with something that would just make them bleed out, not explode every capillary in their bodies. My own personal theory is that the "livery" taste/texture of game meat is due to high velocity heart shots/extreme hydrostatic shock. Remember, the 44WCF was "the" deer cartridge at one time.

[Shome10x]

I've killed deer with a 45acp... A good friend does it routinely...

I'll keep hunting with my 625 and use that rifle thingy for the long shots....

Chris G...Now in East LA

[gunfan]

I've killed about 10 Texas white tails with the .45 ACP/AR. About half were with the standard pressure Winchester 230 grain Ranger-T JHP load and the others with a 255 Keith SWC at about 900 fps in AR brass. Ranges were 20-30 yards from bow blinds and all were one shot affairs. These were fired from a Smith 625 .45 ACP Mountain Gun and the standard response from heart/lung hits was to run about 25-50 yards and fall over dead. Two of the deer were bang/flops. Wound channels were great with full penetration and the deer were tasty. If you keep ranges reasonable and select the shots carefully, it will kill deer all day long.

Isn't that what I said? ;)

Scott

[Lloyd Smale]

federal offense to shoot at or near a active power line. Lucky your dad didnt spend a few days in jail and if it were today theyd probably have the FBI knocking at your door ;)
Well, maybe it was back in the 40's it all started to go downhill in Illinois. Around Salem there was/still is a cross country high voltage line. My dad shot at a crow from the hiway and misjudged the distance by enough to slice in half the wire the crow was sitting on. In my personal experiences, that wire had to have an EXACT center shot to bust the load-carrying wire that is composed of steel, rather than the wrapped aluminum/copper current carrying conductor. The voltage/current was high enough to see severe sparks where the wire touched the ground, so there must have been enough power in that line to supply many, many end customers. And, that was long before monitoring computers which today would make it mere inconvenience to the customers as a brownout instead of a blowout. ... felix

[Thumbcocker]

For handguns, a bottleneck centerfire cartridge of .30 caliber or larger with a case length not exceeding 1.4 inches, or a straight-walled centerfire cartridge of .30 caliber or larger, both of which must be available as a factory load with the published ballistic tables of the manufacturer showing a capability of at least 500 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. There is no case length limit for straight-walled cartridges.


I stand corrected.

[Sax.45]

Well lets see, a 200 to 230gr bullet traveling at a moderate speed ( 800-900fps ) is a proven killer. Shot placement is and always will be the key to a clean kill. I use other dedicated revolvers for hunting but would love to use my 1911's but no joy in PA. No semi autos allowed. But a S&W revolver in .45acp would be sweet. I have a ruger Blackhawk with a .45acp cylinder but my eyesight isn't what it used to be. I NEED to use optics now.:cry::cry:

[John in WI]

I totally believe that it didn't exit on a deer. Years back when I lived in Alabama, a wild pig came up. Not too big, maybe 150# or so. A buddy of mine stalked and shot it with a 1911, and hitting it behind the shoulder (not into heavy bone), the .45 had surprisingly little penetration even though he had switched out the HPs for hardball. It dropped him after a short run, but I was expecting real carnage based on the old stories I grew up on. Don't get me wrong--the .45 is a substantial round! Just that I was expecting the heavy slug to have more punch to it. I don't think I would try it for deer unless it was a survival hunting situation and I was up close.

[35remington]

I've shot a couple of deer with 185 HP's out of a 625-3 revolver that, while stoutly loaded, had similar velocity to 185 +P's in an auto. In both cases the bullet centered a rib on entry and exit. On chest shots penetration shouldn't be an issue on deer. A reasonably short death run is what is desired.

I can tell you the 452423 Keith bullet at 975 fps MV will lengthwise a whitetail doe. This from the same revolver.

[Lonegun1894]

The last hog I took was with a Ruger Mk 3 with a 4.5" barrel .22LR. There was one shot fired, and it hit right behind the right elbow. The hog walked ten feet and collapsed, dead. This was a 175-200# wild pig, not a tame one in a pen. The little 36gr Federal bulk pack HP entered the right side, penetrated both lungs and the heart, and EXITED the left side, also just behind the elbow. While I have no doubts that a .45 will at times not exit a deer, depending on the bullet, I also think that it is proper placement that is the main thing. It is legal here to hunt deer with "any centerfire" caliber, and while the .45 ACP wouldn't be my first choice because I have better, I also wouldn't feel in the least bit undergunned with it if it just happened to be what I had with me. In travels to various places, I have taken every edible animal I could get within 50yds of for camp meat due to a job where we would regularly get left to fend for ourselves for food, and we all carried .22 LR handguns of one form or another. In almost all cases, it was a Ruger, Browning, or S&W, in various models. And between me and my team, we took everything from squirrels to hogs, deer, and various deer relatives, with the biggest taken having been in the 600-700# range, all with .22 LRs. The above is why I have no doub that a well placed .45 will do the job very well for you. Just hunt like a bow hunter and then put it where it belongs.

[ole 5 hole group]

federal offense to shoot at or near a active power line. Lucky your dad didnt spend a few days in jail and if it were today theyd probably have the FBI knocking at your door ;)

Haaa - it might be a Federal offense but unless it was on camera, or an active informant was with him or he turned himself in because of a guilt complex the FBI would never figure out what door to knock on.:smile:

[Lonegun1894]

I understand not shooting AT a powerline completely, but shooting NEAR one? The reason that I ask is that my last deer lease had a powerline AND a gas line running right up the middle, and even though it was 100 acres, it was a long strip so I don't think we could have gone anywhere on that lease without being "near" the powerline. And having both lines, I bet that was a double whammy for us all. I mean, that entire lease was about 300yds wide, and LOOONG, with the lines running side by side right up the full lenght almost perfectly in the middle. So depending on their definition of "near", we could have been asking for trouble without even knowing it.

[frank505]

We shot some hogs years ago with 45 hardball, takes some shooting to put them down. Tried the Saeco 220 grain semi wadcutter and 7 of Unique, that works just fine and usually went through.

[tek4260]

I've only shot one with an ACP. It was around 70yds and it did as well as a 44 Mag in my opinion. Of course I am shooting a 280ish gr HP at over 800fps from my 1911 :)

[44man]

This has been a good read. I have no doubt at all that the ACP will kill deer. Placement and distance counts but remember placement is a lot harder then many think. You have buck fever, shakes, shooting off hand, maybe half frozen in the stand.
It takes years and hundreds of deer to get dead calm. Deer do not bother me at all but even I will never claim to place a boolit from a revolver exact.
Then most autos just do not have the accuracy unless you spend big bucks for custom. I know, I have built them but most are made for reliability.
Deer are tough, the brain is not like a man that will drop quick. They just plain RUN!
Hunting is 100% ethics and with a revolver or pistol, more so because of the lack of energy.
Personally I find the .475 best for quick stops, the .44 is great and then the .41 but I do not own one. If I had a 1911, I might be tempted but it is a long stretch, I have much better guns.

[45 2.1]

All depends on where the energy goes.... in the deer in a proper place and depth or in the hillside behind it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Gosh, would it be OK to shoot one with a rifle in .45 ACP?

Several guys here built Mausers and Enfields in .45 ACP. I still haven't finished mine

I thought Larry Gibson said he was getting about 1200 fps out of a normal 230gr pistol load. Seems like that would make the cut.

Far more accurate in a rifle as well.

Has to be better than any pistol.

Randy

[44man]

I think the biggest problem is choosing a boolit that is both accurate and will function the gun without a failure.
That was the reason I never bought a .41 because the first bullets were not real hunting ones but things have changed over the years.
Also the reason I never liked the .357, need just the right bullet.
All will kill deer but you need a blood trail and a fast kill before they go away in the thick.
Even a very large caliber can fail on deer so like 45 2.1 said, it is the bullet/boolit. I agree with him, he said it like it is. I would not be shooting at deer with hardball.

[silverbuzzard]

If legal and all you got use it ! BUT be advised, use a 230 or 250 grain cast SWC
When the 45 ACP was developed they shot beeves in the head [ and body] to test penetration. The 200 grain was found lacking and they uped the bullet to 230.
I carry a 255 LC SWC and move it at 900 fps when around bear country [ Pacos load] I have my rifle close but the 45 is on my hip in case it's needed. I would not hestitate to shoot deer inside 60 yards if I did not have my rifle close by

[9.3X62AL]

All depends on where the energy goes.... in the deer in a proper place and depth or in the hillside behind it.

Pretty succinct summation, right there.

[jh45gun]

This has been a good read. I have no doubt at all that the ACP will kill deer. Placement and distance counts but remember placement is a lot harder then many think. You have buck fever, shakes, shooting off hand, maybe half frozen in the stand.
It takes years and hundreds of deer to get dead calm. Deer do not bother me at all but even I will never claim to place a boolit from a revolver exact.
Then most autos just do not have the accuracy unless you spend big bucks for custom. I know, I have built them but most are made for reliability.
Deer are tough, the brain is not like a man that will drop quick. They just plain RUN!
Hunting is 100% ethics and with a revolver or pistol, more so because of the lack of energy.
Personally I find the .475 best for quick stops, the .44 is great and then the .41 but I do not own one. If I had a 1911, I might be tempted but it is a long stretch, I have much better guns.

Got to disagree some here Deer are not predictable One might run 100 yards after being shot and one might drop right there and one may travel a few feet or yard and drop all shot with the same sort of shots. I have witnessed this both with gun and archery hunting. I also disagree with being dead calm that it takes years and years most folks at least for me after I got over the excitement of shooting the first few deer got over any buck fever and you can get that feeling with any deer not just bucks. But at least for me it did not take years or hundreds of deer. It is also about placement High energy rounds may give you a fudge factor but if you place the bullet where it is supposed to go you will kill deer and you do not need a high powered round to do it. I had a friend now passed on since 2000 that bow hunted with an old compound bow that was one of the first ones out that was made factory but the body was like the old recurves. This bow was so old that it was no where near the power it used to be we estimated it at around between 35 and 40 pounds no where near the 65 and 70 pound compounds most folks use today when he shot it you could easy follow the arrow with your eyes. But he was a deadly shot with that old bow and I seen him shoot a lot of deer with it and a lot of them would walk a few yards and drop over. I helped him retrieve more than a few of them deer in his last years. Placement is more essential than power. I just brought up the bow story to illustrate that his bow was on the lower end of the legal spectrum of what bow hunters use to kill deer yet he did right well with it. Well placed 22 LR and 22 Mag have killed more deer than you can shake a stick at. I have killed a lot of deer with both a bow and now crossbow and both using a rifle and a handgun. Lets face it a lot of folks have thought you need so much power to kill a deer these days they poo poo the 30/30 which has probably killed more deer than any other cartridge. When I had the 308 barrel on my Encore Pistol I killed 5 deer with it using a cast load that was probably around 1800 fps. Never had to go over 30 yards at the most and and two were DRT. Now that load was no power house but I did not have any problems with the 5 deer I killed with it.

[44man]

6841268411jh45gun. Yes, I have over 250 bow kills from stick bows to compounds. Arrows kill different.
The question I have for you is if you use a revolver and shoot at walking, running or standing deer to over 100 yards, do you place every shot at the CNS? If you claim that just how many names can I call you?
I can't buy that, 90% of rifle hunters can't do it.
Now let us talk about buck fever. I started with a stick bow. I would shake like mad when I seen one but pulling the string made it go away and my first year I killed three deer with three shots, Ohio, PA an MI.
I know hunters that NEVER got over it, miss and wound many deer.
You sound like me, control with deer so I will agree. We can do it. But you do not look at the general hunting population.
You do not look at how any person shoots. I really love when someone says "placement" when they can't group under 6" at 20 yards. About the range of a military 1911. I would not hunt deer with that gun, I would improve it.
Understand I shoot down to 1/2" groups at 100 yards with my revolvers, shoot walking and running deer. It is easier to shoot a moving deer. Yet I will never tell you I can place a boolit in the CNS. If I said I drop every deer right now, you can call me the biggest liar and a keyboard shooter.
The total point is to use what works and a 30-30 might just be the best as is the .44 mag.
To use less is a game with a poor animal that will suffer.
Placement is internet folly. Use enough gun and energy. Make a good shot even if just lungs. Don't stick the drop in tracks junk stuff with every shot.
You say a .22 for deer? Yes I seen some drop dead but can you explain this? I killed a deer and found a fully expanded .22 bullet in the neck, broke the skin and was turning green. It could kill the deer from infection.
Use enough, no excuse for less.

[jh45gun]

Just because you found one 22 bullet in the neck is not absolute proof the round will not kill deer at the appropriate ranges. I say appropriate because shooting at longer ranges with a 22 LR is not going to be effective. The few deer I killed with a 22 mag revolver years ago was archery ranges and never lost one. The 22 mag in a revolver is not going to be as effective as in a rifle and I would say the 22 mag in a pistol would be more like a hotter 22 LR round in a rifle due to the shorter barrels. Yet it was enough to get the job done with the right bullet placement. If some one shot that 22 bullet at longer ranges I can see where it would not be as effective. I have seen broadheads festering in deer from poor shots as i have center fire bullets so again placing the bullet is essential What is enough? I have seen some use 300 magnums and 35 Whelens and the deer they shot in the front shoulders wasted both of them. In this case enough was too much. It also boils down to what your ability is. Every deer I ever shot at with a pistol was at archery ranges I would say 30 yards on the average 50 at the most. Most deer I have shot have either been standing or walking. I have shot deer running but prefer not to and that was with a rifle. I will agree that having enough makes sense but so does placement. having enough means little if you cannot place the bullet where you want it to go. That goes for arrows too. I know a guy that shoots young pigs with a Contender Carbine in 22 Short. The ranges are close and he places the bullets where they need to go and he kills pigs. At the ranges he shoots and the size of the pigs he shoots it is enough. Every one is different also so shooting skill goes a long way with success.

[jh45gun]

For the record 44 my deer hunting pistol now is a Ranch Hand 45 Colt. Just got it last year so have not shot a deer with it yet. Never seen a deer during gun season last year. Hard to say when I will be able to as the DNR has destroyed the deer herd in NW WI giving out way too many anterless tags for the last 20 or so years. In fact the past two years the times I got out including the last two opening week ends I never seen a deer. Lots of disgusted folks up here about this mess.

[45 2.1]

Use enough, no excuse for less.

Enough? That depends on what you have to work with, how good you are at using it and where you pick to use it. That changes for every person out there..... doesn't it.

[mike in co]

once saw a deer hit by a car...down but not out..i happened to have a 45acp with me....put the deer down....


All depends on where the energy goes.... in the deer in a proper place and depth or in the hillside behind it.

[makicjf]

I shot a 180 wild hog from about 25 yards behind the shoulder sheil with a lee 230 (weighs 238 from ww and air cooled) over 5.8 of unique launched from an officers model 1911. he literally "huurumphed" and dropped drt. I did a little autopsy as i was curious how the boolit performed. This is a one of my sd carry loads and was curious how it would perform: broke two ribs away from the spine, hamburgered the lungs and stopped against the far ribcage. This was exactly what i was hoping for; cgood transfer of energy but minimal to no overpenetration. He was dead broadside, and I think if I had hit the shoulder sheild, the shoulder or from a different angle the sternum I do not think I would have had as much penetration, but the result may well ave been the same. Within range, it should kill a whitetail, given a decent boolit and shot placement.

[USSR]

This is a one of my sd carry loads and was curious how it would perform: broke two ribs away from the spine, hamburgered the lungs and stopped against the far ribcage. This was exactly what i was hoping for; cgood transfer of energy but minimal to no overpenetration.

I have to laugh when guys think that a bullet that does not exit is good, because it means a complete "transfer of energy". That shows a complete lack of understanding about what makes for a good hunting round. The "energy" listed with load data or on ammo boxes is merely a calculation based on weight and velocity. It has little to do with contributing to the rapid demise of an animal. And, if a bullet does not exit an animal, rather than being good, it is bad and means a failure of the bullet and/or load. What kills an animal is not a formula, but rather a large wound channel destroying vital tissue and a rapid loss of blood pressure (assuming it is not a CNS shot). You want an exit hole, because in addition to there being more tissue destruction, it also speeds up the drop in blood pressure. While I have a 1911 in .45 ACP, I would never use it for deer due to it's inability to consistently provide complete penetration. That's what I have my .45 Colt for. Just MHO.

Don

[Multigunner]

A friend, now deceased, took a buck with a brass framed .44 cal Cap & Ball copy of the Colt Navy.
He hit it just above the eye line and the bullet lifted the top of its skull antlers and all and laid them on its neck.
It was a lucky shot, he only carried the revolver as a back up and to finish off wounded game. The deer ran right up on him out of thick brush.
I'd tuned that revolver for him, and made a lefthanded holster for him. He'd been practicing his fast draw so it was instinct rather than planned.

Shot placement counts more than foot pounds when it comes to deer. They have a unique circulatory system that shuts down and squeezes the veins and arteries to continue to supply blood to the limbs even if the heart is blown completely out of the body.
It all depends on whether the flight message is transmitted before the brain shuts down.
I've seen a film clip of a deer trying to run when its spine was severed just behind the head, and the body continued to make running motions for some time after the antlers caught in brush and dragged it down.

[labradigger1]

Several years ago i carried my s&w 4506 as a sidearm in buck season.
here pistol has to have .357 or larger diameter and at least a 6 inch barrell.
saw an 8 pt @ 10 yds, drew 45 and only shot i had was straight on in the neck w/ jword hp. Dropped in its tracks. Would i do it again?
close range sure, would not think twice.

[44man]

Enough? That depends on what you have to work with, how good you are at using it and where you pick to use it. That changes for every person out there..... doesn't it.
Yes, no argument.
But I need to include archery equipment being used today. Arrows are too light and fast. I have shot 3 healthy deer with 6" of arrows in the chest cavities. I am now afraid to stick my hands inside them unless I open wide and look around. I just missed the tiny broad heads with my hands. They are too small also.
A light fast arrow just plain stops fast even if many shots go through and kill, many won't.
I had it happen with a cross bow in Ohio long ago. I made a perfect quartering shot on a huge buck at 30 yards. The arrow penetrated the skin, hit a rib and flipped over to smack the buck on his shoulder with the side of the arrow. The last I seen of him showed the arrow hanging by the head just under the skin.
I learned long ago to use the heaviest arrow a bow can shoot straight and a good size broad head so I still say to "use enough." I want to eliminate the "what if."
I used to archery hunt PA ad took many deer. It seems that deer in PA are .22 targets. I lost count of how many I found with lumps on the chest wall, first thought was cancer until I cut them open to have .22 bullets fall out.
Around here we have deer, lots of deer and hunters use too big a rifle, never practice at all and lose deer hand over fist. I walked one property two seasons ago and found 12 dead deer there alone. I found 10 more in the spring looking for shrooms.
You can use too small and too big. If anyone wants to hunt with a .38 special, fine, but what percentage of deer will be recovered?
One fellow up town loses half the deer he shoots. He uses a 7mm mag and a .300 mag. I keep telling him to buy a 30-30. His longest shots are 50 yards.

[45 2.1]

The statement still works for any of your scenarios Jim..... think about it some. Some people couldn't kill a deer on a bet with anything....... and some could with a modified spoon and a stick.

[44man]

The statement still works for any of your scenarios Jim..... think about it some. Some people couldn't kill a deer on a bet with anything....... and some could with a modified spoon and a stick.
True and I never imply things about members here.
Real shooters live here!
The field on the other hand is scary, some of those guys would pull the pin on a grenade, hold it between their legs while they fixed their hat! :veryconfu
The best is a friend of mine, shoots the bull out of targets, missed a deer by 10'.
After years of trying, he finally killed one last season, gut shot it with a 270.

[makicjf]

USSR,
Please allow me to clarify my story a bit. I do not regularly shoot large game with a 230 grain 45 acp bullet at 850ish fps, though within range, deer hog size game and good sht placement it will, demonstrably so, perform well. My deer , or hg hunting from horseback ( where I may be shooting one handed) is a 260 rnfp wd from ww over 24 of h110. If I am afoot and my intent is hunting its a lee 300 gc over the same dose of h110. When around the farm working, puttering or riding the ruger is loaded with a 252 swc or a lee 300 unchecked over 10 of unique. In a hunting situation I seek bone crushing, flesh rending through anf through shots for all of the reaons you stated. I was , in the instance cited, using the feral hog as a human analog : i am cheap and have no desire to buy hp self defense ammo for my carry gun when I go to town. God forbid, if I ever had to use a weapon the last thing I want is to go through the goblin, the wall behind him and hit the person behind that wall. I was impressed with the boney and soft tissue damage done by the 230 tc at hardball velocities, and very happy with the fact that the 180 lbs "bad guy" contained the round even though I had impacted midbody proximal to distal, and had not actually impacted bone directly. In a sense we are talking apples and oranges-- what is sought in a hunting round and what I prefer in a self defense round. I was looking for the maximum damage and almost total penetration without actually going through: on that pig on that day that is what I acheived.
now the hog in my avatar was shot 1/4 away from about 90 yards with a 170 gc from a thirty thirty- went in at the last rib, exited the opposite shoulder, rolled him down the hill. Found flopping and bleeding from the nose and mouth. I have no idea were that boolit ended up, but it dropped him, broke bone and scrambled his innards.
Jason

[44man]

No need to clarify, we understand.
I have often said self protection from two legged critters is different then hunting and should not be compared.
Nothing wrong with many calibers like the ACP and what I say about using enough also applies to the bullet/boolit choice. It will always be that choice that counts.

[gtgeorge]

I have shot deer and hogs with my 1911 loaded with 230gr XTPs at 950fps. They work just fine under 50 yards and I now load 45super but have not taken anything since switching. I have had no problem with through and through and one almost 200# hog was charging and it was shot with the same load from a 3.75" barrel entering the left front behind the shoulder and exiting at front of the right hind quarters. I have shot several deer with them as well and will be trying the results with 200 gr lead.

[felix]

Jim and Bob, that sounds like me! I don't REALLY want to kill a deer, so I will miss no matter how hard I TRY consciously. I discovered many years ago during duck, goose, quail hunts with my dad and his dad that I'd rather spend that time in bed where the weather is more comfortable. The difference between my brothers and me is night and day when it comes to hunting. One brother NEVER misses his limit on deer, doves, ducks. His head is screwed on right for hunting, but the charging beer cans are SAFE. ... felix

[44MAG#1]

It always seemed funny to me that many have hunted Cape Buffalo, Eland, Kudu and the Great Bears with 475 Linebaughs, 454 Casull and even the 44 Mag and then there are those that say that a 45 ACP with a good flat point hard cast bullet isn't effective on deer when the gun and power level when using a 454, 475 is far less against a Cape Buffalo than a 45 ACP is against a Whitetail deer.
Somewhere the computation is just not right.
If a 45 ACP with a hard cast FP bullet at 900 is not enough for a Whitetail deer then the boys using a 44/454/475/500 on Cape Buffalo and or a Bison or even an Eland is so far off the map that they are just plain off their rocker where power vs game is concerned.
Has anyone ever let them in on this powerful bit of knowlege?

[44man]

It still is the bullet/boolit. Energy figures mean nothing. Velocity figures mean nothing. It bothers me when someone wants the highest velocity a gun can shoot.
Boolit work inside the animal, that is what kills.
Even with this thread, guys post velocity---WHY. A bullet of any kind must work at it's preferred velocity.

[44MAG#1]

"Velocity figures mean nothing."
I'll tell you this. Just set your bullet up on top of a fence post and tell it to go fetch your game and lets see how much it brings back.
For a bullet to work it has to have velocity. It has to have weight and must be properly constructed. I know what you mean in that people put too much importance on velocity but to say it means "nothing" is going alittle over board to prove a point. Being overly dramatic is like an actor trying to steal a scene from the other actors in play or movie. A spotlight hog so to speak.
If velocity wasn't important why aren't we still using the 45 Colt and the 44 Special loaded to black powder velocity levels?
Velocity alone is no good and bullet weight alone is no good it takes a combination of both in a properly balanced combination along with proper construction which includes alloying when speaking of cast..

[felix]

Pay attention to your signature line, 44Mag! You are saying the very same thing Jim said in his post immediately above! Just the subject matter is different, or is it? ... felix

[ole 5 hole group]

I'll just say this: A 255 grain cast with a 0.452"diameter travelling at 950/1,000fps will kill about anything walking on the North American Continent and I don't care if you are shooting a 1911, a 45 Colt or a 454 Revolver - the end result will be the same.

If you have a need for more speed or bullet weight, then maybe the 45 ACP Super or 460 Rowland in the 1911 will be needed to keep up with the 45 Colt or 454 and if one still needs a little more bullet weight and speed - well, then the 1911 can stay home and pout.

I have complete faith in my 14yoa granddaughter, who is a very capable handgun shootist, can take a whitetail or mulie at 70 yards with my 1911 (Baer PII) using either a 230 grain gold dot in front of VV N350 or a 260 grain cast in front of VV N350. I know that deer will either drop in its tracks or will take off a mach 2 speed but either way, it'll be a dead deer and grandpa will probably have to field dress it.

[Bullshop]

I would with my 45 acp. My 45 acp is a Ruger Bisley Blackhawk with 7.5" barrel. I load 250gn boolits to almost 45 Colt length. Plenty of room for powder that way. They wont fit a 1911 though too long even for a Grizzley Win Mag.
Its kinda like long loading in 38 special cases but using 357 mag loads.

[USSR]

I would with my 45 acp. My 45 acp is a Ruger Bisley Blackhawk with 7.5" barrel. I load 250gn boolits to almost 45 Colt length. Plenty of room for powder that way. They wont fit a 1911 though too long even for a Grizzley Win Mag.
Its kinda like long loading in 38 special cases but using 357 mag loads.

Now THAT would work just fine. Come to think of it, in post #23 the OP did say he was using a revolver.

Don

[44man]

I believe I said it right. I have always ignored velocity to find the most accurate and the right boolit for deer since it is all I can afford to hunt. My chrono is never used to work loads.
The .45 Colt and the .44 special are not going away any time soon, if ever.
I have killed quite a few deer with my Ruger Old Army with round balls and my friend uses a Remington cap and ball now and then. The balls go through deer and will smash bone. The pure round ball just plain works---yes it is the projectile.
The problem always comes down to what your gun can shoot with accuracy, yet work at the velocity you can get. Calibers like the .357 just get tough but work with the right boolit. I just don't want to use deer to test. It is still a problem with the ACP, not the caliber or velocity or muzzle energy it is just the boolit/bullet.
A hard boolit from my .500 JRH is far less affective then my .44. The boolit needs a softer nose. Don't believe that stuff about a larger diameter or larger meplat.
As you change velocity OR BOOLIT WEIGHT, you need to change the bullet or the alloy. EVERY velocity works with bullet match.
I found it strange that a real heavy boolit shot at the same velocity as a lighter one did less internal damage. My .475 and JRH both shoot at 1350 fps, the .475 kills MUCH better. The big, hard, heavy boolit from the JRH is nothing but a paper punch. That thing will whiz through a deer and not leave energy.
Energy kills but it must be applied just right to the game hunted. The JRH needs some expansion on deer but hard is better for a buffalo.
You need to understand many of our handguns are like rifles. You can blow up a fragile bullet too soon, get it right or blow up so much meat you have a mess. Don't ignore you can also just poke a stick hole.

[MTtimberline]

[QUOTE=ole 5 hole group;2189932]I'll just say this: A 255 grain cast with a 0.452"diameter travelling at 950/1,000fps will kill about anything walking on the North American Continent and I don't care if you are shooting a 1911, a 45 Colt or a 454 Revolver - the end result will be the same.

There is a lot of truth to this statement.

[44man]

[QUOTE=ole 5 hole group;2189932]I'll just say this: A 255 grain cast with a 0.452"diameter travelling at 950/1,000fps will kill about anything walking on the North American Continent and I don't care if you are shooting a 1911, a 45 Colt or a 454 Revolver - the end result will be the same.

There is a lot of truth to this statement.
Look at what you said! I am going to beat on you a little. You can't compare each caliber with other then the velocities you stated but the .454 at what it is made to shoot at is not to be compared. Why buy a .454 to shoot 1000 fps or less?
Run it at the full velocity and you darn sure need to change the boolit.
I have to concede the ACP, .45 Colt and .454 all at the same velocity are the same but nobody buys a .454 for 950 to 1000 fps.
Nobody buys a .500 S&W for 900 fps. Or do they?
Do a search and see how many look for "plinking" loads with big guns to get used to them. Are they kidding?
It is like buying a .460 Weatherby and wanting .45 Colt recoil.
Many buy too big because it "shoots" faster or shoots a heavier boolit and it is OK but just choose the right bullet and don't look for wimp loads.
I have to look at the .460, made for a light high velocity bullet. Sure a .45 Colt or .454 will go bang from the gun. Will it shoot? Or make noise?
Let us get down to tacks. If you have a .460, shoot the .460 ammo at 100 yards, then the .454 then the .45 Colt. I will bet anything the .460 shot best.

[1bluehorse]

[QUOTE=USSR;2188219]I have to laugh when guys think that a bullet that does not exit is good, because it means a complete "transfer of energy". That shows a complete lack of understanding about what makes for a good hunting round. The "energy" listed with load data or on ammo boxes is merely a calculation based on weight and velocity. It has little to do with contributing to the rapid demise of an animal. And, if a bullet does not exit an animal, rather than being good, it is bad and means a failure of the bullet and/or load. What kills an animal is not a formula, but rather a large wound channel destroying vital tissue and a rapid loss of blood pressure (assuming it is not a CNS shot). You want an exit hole, because in addition to there being more tissue destruction, it also speeds up the drop in blood pressure. While I have a 1911 in .45 ACP, I would never use it for deer due to it's inability to consistently provide complete penetration. That's what I have my .45 Colt for. Just MHO.

John Linebaugh writes that his wife has killed several Mule deer and a couple antelope at ranges from 90 to 125 yards shooting a 45 colt, 250/260gr bullet, at around 900fps...if this is a "good enough" load for Muleys then why would not a 45ACP shooting the same size .452 at the same/or near fps not do as well.... I think it would...

[DougGuy]

And, if a bullet does not exit an animal, rather than being good, it is bad and means a failure of the bullet and/or load.

Not necessarily true in all cases. I took a nice stocky buck with a quartering toward shot, plain old Walmart Foster slug in 12ga, rifled Mossberg slug barrel and it went down SO hard, it bounced. Literally. It went straight down where it was standing, stuck it's head up to see what the noise was then laid it's head back down and died in the same tracks it was standing in. The slug hit in front of the shoulder on the near site, cut all the plumbing off the top of the heart, hit a rib and bounced into the gut cavity and stopped. I still have the slug, it looks like a coke bottle lid with the hollowpoint dimple punched all the way through.

But, to stay on topic, no .45 ACP load that I'm aware of will do that.

[44MAG#1]

Here is what I said in post #75. Anyone care to even hazard an answer to it?
"It always seemed funny to me that many have hunted Cape Buffalo, Eland, Kudu and the Great Bears with 475 Linebaughs, 454 Casull and even the 44 Mag and then there are those that say that a 45 ACP with a good flat point hard cast bullet isn't effective on deer when the gun and power level when using a 454, 475 is far less against a Cape Buffalo than a 45 ACP is against a Whitetail deer.
Somewhere the computation is just not right.
If a 45 ACP with a hard cast FP bullet at 900 is not enough for a Whitetail deer then the boys using a 44/454/475/500 on Cape Buffalo and or a Bison or even an Eland is so far off the map that they are just plain off their rocker where power vs game is concerned.
Has anyone ever let them in on this powerful bit of knowlege?"

[frank505]

Well, heres one for you folks. Twelve year old girl with a 7.5 inch BlackHawk 45, RCBS 265 Keith slug, the load was 231 at 700 feet per second or so. She and her Dad crawled within fifty yards of a bedded big mule deer. Had to wait for an hour and ahalf for him to stand up, she hit him twice, three inches apart at 50 yards. Buck fell over, both slugs exited. Oh and that was her sixgun.

[DougGuy]

Nobody is saying that it can't be done, but what I am gathering out of this thread is that the .45 ACP for deer would not be the best choice available. And I would agree with that.

[45 2.1]

Nobody is saying that it can't be done, but what I am gathering out of this thread is that the .45 ACP for deer would not be the best choice available. And I would agree with that.

So, just what is the best choice..... either use the most powerful handgun you can handle and bust them in the shoulder to break them down OR learn to shoot well enough to place a boolit where you want it and learn where it will do the most good for what you have. Six of one and a half dozen of the other?

[Doc_Stihl]

Here is what I said in post #75. Anyone care to even hazard an answer to it?
"It always seemed funny to me that many have hunted Cape Buffalo, Eland, Kudu and the Great Bears with 475 Linebaughs, 454 Casull and even the 44 Mag and then there are those that say that a 45 ACP with a good flat point hard cast bullet isn't effective on deer when the gun and power level when using a 454, 475 is far less against a Cape Buffalo than a 45 ACP is against a Whitetail deer.
Somewhere the computation is just not right.
If a 45 ACP with a hard cast FP bullet at 900 is not enough for a Whitetail deer then the boys using a 44/454/475/500 on Cape Buffalo and or a Bison or even an Eland is so far off the map that they are just plain off their rocker where power vs game is concerned.
Has anyone ever let them in on this powerful bit of knowlege?"

I'd like to see the evidence of someone hunting cape buffalo with a 44 mag. Not saying it hasn't been done. But I've never seen or heard of it.
You can almost guarantee that anyone hunting cape buffalo with any handgun has a Professional Hunter standing behind him with a BIG double.

And besides, what a seasoned, practiced, pro can do, vs what an average Joe SHOULD do is apples and oranges.

If you can put 5 out of 5 rounds in a 4" group at your specified range, AND you can judge that range in the field, AND the bullet has sufficient velocity and mass to be effective on the game, AND you keep your game within those specs it doesn't matter if you're using a 45ACP or a 500 S&W.

[44MAG#1]

If you don't know about the 44 Mag being used on Cape Buffalo then one must not have been in the "read" so to speak.
Look at the game killed by the 44 Mag even if you discount the Cape Buff. Read JD Jones on Hunting for Handgunner and the Australian Water Buffalo that is bigger than a Cape Buffalo.
Look at the game killed with the 454 Casull.
Look at the game killed by the 375JDJ that has racked up an impressive list of game. Whose ballistics are no better than some of the revolver rounds we have today powerwise.
Ever hear of Bill Wilson hunting africa with a 44 Mag?
Ever hear of Larry Kelly?
Ever hear of Lynn Thompson?
I could go on and on but I think you get the drift
Oh yes Hall Swiggett on Bison with a 44 Mag.
Many more that I can't think of now but will.
Oh yes, Pamela Atwood and her expliots with a 454 Casull mainly using Cor-Bon 320 gr FMJ's?

[USSR]

Nobody is saying that it can't be done, but what I am gathering out of this thread is that the .45 ACP for deer would not be the best choice available. And I would agree with that.

Exactly. I once killed a deer with a .22 rimfire, but that doesn't make it a valid deer cartridge.

Don

[W.R.Buchanan]

Taylor Knock Down Factor tells the tale on boolits over .40 cal much better than ft lbs of energy. Most of these boolits kill by poking a big hole in the target and the subsiquent bleeding out of the animal, similar to what happens in archery.

Smaller hi-vel bullets kill by transferring energy to the target resulting in shock.

It is pretty well known that any of these larger boolits at 900fps will completely penetrate Elk sized animals broadside.

If this is true, then whatever launches said boolit should be of little concern.

The issue becomes more about "style" than efficiency.

1911's would be considered "more stylish" for the shooting of people than animals. Whereas a SA revolver would favor the animal over the human.

It's kind of like showing up to the Trap Shoot with a riot gun. You're just not gonna win any style points.

AS soon as we get Joan Rivers involved in the shooting sports, then the "Fashion Police" will have a field day with the non conformists and those not familar with the code of proper attire and accesorizing, among us! Bringing the correct attire and equipment to the show for a given venue will no longer optional,,, it will be manditory!

At that point,,,Shame will dictate the rules the day.

Randy

[1bluehorse]

Well lets see, there was a news article a couple years back about a guy getting into trouble killing a Grizzly bear in one of the National Parks, don't remember off hand but it had to have been either Glacier or Jellystone...killed it with a 45acp (four hits if I recall correctly)...Plus, I've read a bazillion posts about how the 9mm is so inferior to the 45acp because it may not penetrate the heavy leather/denim/winter (feel free to add others) clothing that all bad guys wear to protect themselves from said puny cartridge BUT the 45acp will penetrate all the layers of clothing (short of Gothic Mail) and smash the bejeezus outa the drug/adrenalin crazed baddy post haste and render him/them inoperable....I'll bet you could find such a thread right here if you wanted to....so it should work pretty well on a 150lb thin skinned deer that is in all actuality a pretty fragile critter. I have a Rottweiller than goes right at 140lbs, I might want something a bit bigger for him though...

[Piedmont]

Speaking of the .44 Mag on large game.... I read recently on a thread on a different board that a fellow was Bob Petersen's guest for the day and got to see some of his guns and heard the polar bear with a .44 story. Petersen shot him six times and guide finished the job with a .375 H&H. (Petersen is deceased so this happened years ago.)

These guided bow hunters have a guy with a big rifle ready to keep them from being eaten, too.

[44MAG#1]

I also know a guy who has killed several whitetails with a 30-06and had lost a couple too.
I bet horror stories could be conjured up about the guy with 600 Nitro too.

[DougGuy]

Sometimes.... Some times.. You get a rebate on those heavy overkill .45 boolits loaded to extreme velocity, the only .45 Colt boolit I have recovered from a deer, was a 300gr XTP launched with severe recoil from a Vaquero, and I recovered it from the second deer it killed..

Possible the .45 ACP could do that, just a WHOLE LOT less likely..