Throttling back "Deer Grenade" to 1150f/s with H110 or LilGun?

[DougGuy]

Buffalo Bore sells their "Deer Grenade" loads for .45 Colt that boast extreme velocities, and I noted they also come packed with wrist-snapping, knuckle-busting, primer flattening, case sticking, severe recoiling power, all included for one low price!

Not that there is anything fundamentally wrong with any of that, just that the deer we got here could probably line 3 of 'em up and take 'em all with one shot.

I have some of the same boolits they use, Rimrock makes the 260gr LSWC-HP GC design that I would like to load to 1150f/s from a 4 5/8" Vaquero. This velocity/boolit weight sorta falls off the low end of the Ruger Only load data, but is still too warm for standard .45 Colt pressures. For that reason I am not finding very much load data.

For a 260gr Jword @451" Hogdon gives two loads:

19.0gr LilGun 1196f/s 24,500 CUP
23.5gr H110 1351f/s 27,700 CUP

They are using a 260gr .451" Jword, I am using a 260gr LSWC gas check, .452"


1196f/s from a 7.5" barrel, might come pretty close to 1150f/s, fired from a 4 5/8" barrel.

For H110, Hogdon doesn't show anything below 23.5gr, 1351f/s for a 260gr boolit. Would it be safe to use 22.0gr of H110?

I know there are other powders that will do the job but after calling the two LGS within 25mi, neither of them have enough powder of any kind to start a garbage can fire, and I have H110 and LilGun on hand.

[W.R.Buchanan]

First, I would say,,, find some other loading manuals to compare notes with. Just relying on one source limits you too much.

I use 22gr of H110 behind a 260gr cast boolit in my .44's all the time in both my SBH and Rifle. However I get better accuracy from 24 gr in the rifle, and I also get better powder burn.

The problem with H110/W296 (exactly the same powder and always has been!) is that it needs higher pressures to burn right, and accuracy suffers when you start dropping down the charges. It is best suited to hotter loads.

The one thing you must be aware of with H110, is that under no circumstances can you load the case less than about 70% full or the possibility of "flash over" becomes a real problem. Flash over occurs when the gun is held horizontally and the powder level is at or below the flash hole. This results in the side of the charge being ignited instead of the base of the charge. Extremely high pressures result simply because more power is being burnt quicker than if the charge is being burnt from back to front. This is why you don't down-load H110.

I like W231 for midrange loads, and there are many other faster burning powders that will work as well.

What you are trying to do is create a "Mid Range Load." You really need to use an appropriate powder.

Just be patient the stuff will start showing up again shortly.

Randy

[Whiterabbit]

My understanding is dont download H110 (AND leave empty case at the same time) because you get inconsistent ignition thus likely squibbs. No danger of flashover.

Every piece of believable literature I have found (not just "I heard it on the net!") confirms the pressure/ignition idea, not the flash-over idea. In fact, the ONLY place I can find information about H-110 flash over, is the net.

[Whiterabbit]

by the way, if 23 grains of H110 is safe for the bullet you want to use, I personally would have NO problems using 22 grains. However, I would personally also plunk the bullet right down on top of the powder for 100% case fill. In other words, reduction in H110 charge comes with a reduction in OAL.

And that is definitely an "internet" recommendation. of course there are better powders out there to do what you want. But I too prefer to do the most possible with the fewest resources.

[44MAG#1]

I use 24 gr. H110 with a 270 (282 gr) Mihec SAA bullet in my Ruger 45/8's New Vaquero and also 19 gr A2400 with the same bullet. Win LP primers with H110 and Fed 150's with 2400. Have used both charges with Lyman's older 454424 bullet.
They are a little snappy but well within the recoil tolerance if you practice. Not as hot as Buffalo Bore ammo though.

[Whiterabbit]

Here's more internet data:

http://stevespages.com/451p_3_260.html

(anytime I want to see "load data" with a ridiculous and unhelpful spread, I check steve's pages)

There you go. H110 from 18 gr to 24 gr for a 260 grain bullet.

And seriously, I'd have no problems personally trying 18 grains. And seriously, I would still measure it and plunk the bullet down on top of the powder for 100% case fill no matter how far down that bullet is going.

-----------------------------

Dumb question, I thought the Vaquero didnt count with respect to "ruger only" loads? smaller frame? not as strong? no? GTG?

[DougGuy]

Naww that's not a dumb question at all. There are two Vaquero models, the OM or Old Model or Original Model, which is large frame, and the New Vaquero which is medium frame and is NOT SAFE with those Ruger Only loads. The best way to tell them apart, 2 digit prefix is OM, 3 digit prefix serial number is NM. I have the large frame model.

I had another thread about shooting straight down and the best information I got there also ties in with this thread, and with slow burning powders, unless there is a 75% case fill, it is advisable to use a dacron filler to hold the powder back where the flash hole is.

There was more than one recommendation for using a filler, but one friend on another forum had actually chrony'd some midrange loads by pointing the muzzle down, bringing it level, and firing, then pointing it up, bringing it level and firing, and he was getting extreme spreads (which would no doubt indicate considerable pressure variations as well) of as much as 200f/s and using .5gr of dacron filler, brought that down to single digits.

I think I will be good to go with the published 19.0gr of LilGun from Hogdon, but like others have said, I am going to look also at the case fill and if there is room for question, I will use a filler, but not make it a compressed load. This will be a midrange hunting load that will very likely be used from a treestand, shooting right straight down on a deer, or close to straight down.

It's always good to toss out stuff like this and listen to other experienced shooters' opinions.

[makicjf]

I am not an expert, but the loads here, developed by someone who is an expert on 45 colt heavy ruger loads have worked very well for me. Maybe some of these will help.
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

[44man]

My understanding is dont download H110 (AND leave empty case at the same time) because you get inconsistent ignition thus likely squibbs. No danger of flashover.

Every piece of believable literature I have found (not just "I heard it on the net!") confirms the pressure/ignition idea, not the flash-over idea. In fact, the ONLY place I can find information about H-110 flash over, is the net.
I don't know where "flash over" came from either.
My thoughts are the primer pressure with a charge too low for 296 will move out the boolit along with the powder that is too far now from flame. You get a squib or a stuck boolit in the bore with unburned powder behind it. The only high pressure danger is if the powder does decide to light, making the boolit and powder charge bore obstructions.
Primers are not all fire but can generate instant pressures up to 2000 PSI.

[Whiterabbit]

I have more questions, and at least one will be dumb! I will not rest until I ask a dumb question!


There was more than one recommendation for using a filler, ......I think I will be good to go with the published 19.0gr of LilGun from Hogdon, but like others have said, I am going to look also at the case fill and if there is room for question, I will use a filler,........It's always good to toss out stuff like this and listen to other experienced shooters' opinions.

It's a revolver, you don't have to worry about feed or cycle. If it fits, it can shoot. Why would you mess with filler, when you can just seat the bullet down deeper? It's not pressure, because the issue you are trying to solve is worry over insufficient pressure. Suggesting youa re worried its TOO LOW. So the "rise in pressure" you'd get generated by deeper seating is a non issue.

So again, why use filler if you could acomplish he same thig with no filler, just by seating lower?

[DougGuy]

Then, what are you going to crimp the case mouth on? It's not like a .45 auto where you crimp against the side of the boolit and headspace on the case mouth, and you could mess with the seating depth as much as you wanted but these use roll crimps and/or collet crimps. They make cannelures and crimping grooves for that purpose, and also load data is usually develped with a specific volume in the case under a given boolit, with a SAMMI specified LOA for that boolit.

Years ago I used to shoot dots with a T/C made with a custom chambered Bullberry barrel, I shortened .45 Colt cases by .110" turning them into .45 Schofield cases, and used a full wadcutter over light charges of bullseye. The thing was a tackdriver at 15' and shortening the cases made consistent ignition the order of the day. I doubt I even broke 700f/s with those but you could put a hundred of them through a hole the size of a mercury dime. I won a few matches with that rig.

[Whiterabbit]

then crimp on nothing.

You've got case neck tension. focus on that. If you demand a crimp, taper crimp. These aren't star blaster loads, they are mediums. You should be ale to get a combo of case tension and taper crimping (even no crimping) to hold under recoil.

And I DO "mess with seating depth as much as I want" I actually feel more free to do so since i dont have to worry abou feed and cycling.

[subsonic]

I would try SR4759 or AA9. 2400 in a pinch. H110 won't be happy doing what you want to do.

[Thor's Daddy]

H110 won't be happy doing what you want to do.

+1

I'd suggest HS-6 as it seems to excel as a midrange powder. And midrange is exactly what you're looking for.

Also, John Linebaugh has some good data for the 45 Colt HERE (http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm).

[DougGuy]

Unique would work if I wanted to go down below 1000f/s but a 260gr @ 1150f/s is a little much for unique.

HS-6 is looking very promising, as well as IMR4227, but neither can be bought locally due to out of stock.

Since the Hogdon data lists 19.0gr of LilGun as a starting weight for 1196f/s out of a 7.5" barrel, I think it would be safe to use that load, and out of a 4 5/8" barrel, it ought to be right there between 1100 and 1150f/s.

[DougGuy]

Speer no. 11 list 10.5 gr Unique, 260 gr HP at 1,079 fps. from a Ruger BH 7 1/2".

Lyman no. 5 lists 10.gr Unique, 255gr cast at 1011 fps from a 7 1/2" Colt SAA.

About twice as many shots per pound of powder for 50 to 75 fps slower

Barrel velocities drop off from a 7 1/2 to a 4 5/8, many sources say 25 feet per second per inch.

1079 -25f/s per inch = 1004f/s
1011 -25f/s per inch = 936f/s

I can get those numbers from off the shelf .45 ACP loads.

As stated previously, this is not a job for unique.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Guys I have known about Flashover since I started loading .44's with W296 in 1978! it is not some internet fantasy. There was no internet! It is covered in loading manuals, and has been written about in gun mags for decades.

I explained how it works in my earlier post. However,,,

I went back and extracted some more info from pg 110 of Propellant Profiles from Wolfe Publishing.

"Reduced charges mean low density loading that can result in substantial jumps in Chamber Pressure."

This is caused by the charges "surface area" being greater when viewed from the side than if it is burnt from end to end. IE: the charge burns much faster than it is designed to burn, due to having a larger surface area exposed to the primer flash, and this results in a pressure spike.

This is called "Flashover."

This is not a difficult concept to grasp.

Inconsistant ignition is more about people trying to run this powder with regular primers when every loading manual in existance tells them to use Magnum primers. Another scenario is cold weather and standard primers which results in poor or irratic ignition.

I have never experienced any of these maladies personally since I only use H110/W296 for heavy loads with magnum primers.

Randy

[Whiterabbit]

Hi Randy,

I wasn't clear.

I am not doubting the existence of flashover, though all literature says the cause is elusive and yet to be proven (and THAT is a fact.) I'm still not doubting it. It's been shown to happen (though never on command) using powders such as 4198.

My point was the literature (and NOT internet "literature", the real stuff) that I have seen never suggests the downloading danger of H110 is due to flashover. They suggest the danger is due to other issues. No literature suggests that H110 is one of the powders susceptible to flashover.

-Steve

[rexherring]

With reduced velocity loads I use AA#9 17.5 grs for about 1150 from a 7 1/2 Blackhawk. I've taken mule deer with that load and a RCBS cast weighing 265 grs. Also a speer JHP 260 gr with 18 grs for about the same velocity. Big boolits with a large meplat don't need super speed to do the job. I shot a large muley doe in the chest while it was facing me at about 40 yds. and the bullet was just under the hide in her rear end. Almost complete lengthwise penetration.

[W.R.Buchanan]

steve: what other issues? There's only so many things that can happen when powder is ignited in a closed space.

I'll go deeper into the explaination. Let's use a .44 case for the example.

The Inside diameter of the case is @ 7/16" Pi R2 = .149 sq in. When the case is full the charge burns from rear to front, and the surface area exposed to the primer flash is .149 sq in, so the charge burns in so many milliseconds. Even if the case is only half full but held verticle the charge still burns from rear to front at the same rate.

If the case is slightly more than half full and the case is on it's side then the powder is laying flat. Now the exposed surface is 7/16 x 1" or .437 SQ in.

Now the surface area being ignited is 3 times larger and as a result the same charge burning from one side of the case to the other burns 3 times faster than in the previous case. This is where the pressure spike comes from. The term "flashover" just referrs to the path that the primer flash takes over the top of the charge, thus igniting it from the top but igniting more of the charge at that instant. (Path of least resistance)

This would be caused by a charge in the 12-15gr range in a magnum case. Whether or not the gun could handle it is another question.

I believe that in the case of 4198 you will find that people who do this, also stuff the case with filller to keep the powder in the bottom of the case so it burns from one end to the other. It is easy to see that if the powder was spread out over the bottom half of the case when laying flat (like when you're shooting) that more of the powder charge would burn faster than if held in position with filler or shot strait up.

Some powders don't really mind how they are loaded. 5744 seems to not care how much or little you put in the case. 25 gr of 5744 in a .30-06 case is pretty close to 50% load density but it doesn't seem to mind.

I have also heard that the flash over Phenom is unpredictable, but virtually every credible loading info source warns against down loading H110/W296 below a certain load density. Usually expressed as the "starting load."

I don't know how many other things could result in a bad thing. Like I said there is only so many things that can happen when you ignite powder in a closed space.

Typically it goes bang. How long the bang lasts is the big question. For a given amount of powder, the faster the charge is consumed, the higher the pressure generated.

Randy

[uscra112]

All I know is that if the "flashover" explanation for the behavior of H110 were all there was to it, my light (30% case capacity) AA#9 Schuetzen loads would be incapable of delivering single-digit standard deviations. But they do. Every time.

[Whiterabbit]

AA#9 is known to be insensitive to reduced loading. LEE 2nd suggests we can go to 50% case capacity without issue. I couldn't without a gas check, but clearly it's gotta work even lower in some cases if you are getting tight velocities.

Randy, the other issue as explained to me was that H110 requires high pressure for a proper burn. That insufficient peak pressure lets the fire go out so to speak, resulting in a squibb. The danger that Hodgdon's lawyers are so worried about, as explained to me, is the danger of firing round #2 into a squibbed bullet inside the barrel.

Anyone that has experimented with starting loads with H110 or experimented with varying crimps, poor case tension, or low pressure via soft lead and plain base bullets can tell you of squibs and/or hangfires.

I get the concept of flashover, I really, really do. But we have plenty examples of powders that are not sensitive to it. Reliable literature (that I have seen so far) does not suggest that H110 is susceptible to flashover. And let's face it, powder is complicated. single base, double base, single perforated, triple, 7x perf, coated, uncoated. The literature says don't download H110, but NONE that I am aware of say the danger is due to flashover.

[44man]

Here we go with primer stuff again! Downloading H110 or 296 can be worse with more primer pressure.
Since I use NOTHING but a Fed 150 in the .44 mag and .45 Colt with 296 and can work from a starting load to max to find accuracy and also find they are 2/3's more accurate, it is hard for me to get into this again.
Then Fed Cartridge has NEVER used a mag primer in the .44 mag factory loads.
Then the fact if you bring .44 loads here for me to shoot, I will tell you what primer you used.
It is not a joke, I do not go below starting loads and it is not because of "flash over."
It is air space that moves powder away from fire. 296, etc, must be close to the heat source.
I have shot the .44 mag since 1956 and 296 since it came out or was found it was a good .44 powder. Forgive me because I don't know the year it came out. It is the very best powder EVER. It took a while until I found a standard primer was better with ALL powders in the .44. You will never see me load the .44 with a mag primer.
Stay away from 4227 and Lil Gun in the .44!
Load lighter, go to 2400 or Unique. NO mag primers.
The fact is not many know how to load for a revolver, case tension and dies used. Many think crimp only when it does nothing. THAT is the reason for erratic ignition.
Gun writers have no clue at all.
In all these years, only ONE found the solution and it was for the .45 Colt. He never looked at the .44.
I am going with Whiterabbit 100% here.
The fact is you will NEVER get over pressure from a reduced load of 296 or H110, you will get a squib, or total failure to light the powder. Then if the powder and boolit is blown into the bore and decides to burn, you get an S.E.E event.
At the other end with small over loads, the powders do not spike pressure.

[MtGun44]

10 Gr Unique = 1050 fps, perfect for this application. Do not download H110
below minimum book loads (about 1300 fps, IIRC) unless you are a licensed test
pilot and wearing a parachute, if you get my drift. ;-)

Bill

[44man]

I will never understand the pressure relationship to burn since pressures with guns runs from low BP to over 60,000 PSI.
Does H110 require pressure? Or is it just fire and transmission of fire to grain to grain. WHY WOULD FIRE GO OUT IF PRESSURE DROPS? Does not powder continue to burn after peak?
I sit here with a stupid look about ALL 296 is burnt at peak. 88 gr of 4831 just has to be all gone in 1" of barrel in a .300 Weatherby. How about 200 gr in a .50 BMG?
The super crazy thing of a boolit driven by just gas expansion by all powder gone in an inch means you have exploded the gun and you are dead.
More internet junk. We do have internet idiots. We have gun rag writers with no clue.

[DougGuy]

Stay away from 4227 and Lil Gun in the .44!

44man may I ask why this statement? Not so much 4227, even though it has long been used for .45 Colt, but why avoid LilGun? We talking about .45 Colt and not .44 but there isn't much difference in case cap so...

I have plenty of case neck tension, obviously it's not buckling the case but you can feel it has a firm/even/consistent resistance at the press handle, and I found a collet crimp die that seems to be very consistent as opposed to the tried and true roll crimp.

[44man]

Pressure creates heat. Heat creates more ignition of unburnt fuel. Some fuels resist ignition more then others. That's my take on it.
It does but when a boolit moves, pressure is reduced. Peak is when the boolit is static before it moves. From there on, pressure goes down. Does that mean powder quits burning?

[44man]

44man may I ask why this statement? Not so much 4227, even though it has long been used for .45 Colt, but why avoid LilGun? We talking about .45 Colt and not .44 but there isn't much difference in case cap so...

I have plenty of case neck tension, obviously it's not buckling the case but you can feel it has a firm/even/consistent resistance at the press handle, and I found a collet crimp die that seems to be very consistent as opposed to the tried and true roll crimp.
Lil Gun is HOT and can erode steel. It does shoot good and fast with a lower pressure then other powders but can harm a revolver.
Crimp will always be a subject to dispute. All you need is just enough to prevent boolit movement. It does not aid powder burn enough to consider. The Lee FC die can damage brass and shorten it's life. It can also size the boolit and brass. That thing can break case tension.
My case tension shows the boolit base and even the ripple from the GG's in the brass.

[DougGuy]

Lil Gun is HOT and can erode steel. It does shoot good and fast with a lower pressure then other powders but can harm a revolver.
Crimp will always be a subject to dispute. All you need is just enough to prevent boolit movement. It does not aid powder burn enough to consider. The Lee FC die can damage brass and shorten it's life. It can also size the boolit and brass. That thing can break case tension.
My case tension shows the boolit base and even the ripple from the GG's in the brass.

This is the die I use, shown with the carbide collet removed from the die body:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/lee45-dis_lbl-crop_zps1d5758d9.jpg

Link to manufacturer's page: 45 Colt Custom Carbide Factory Crimp Die - Lee Precision (http://leeprecision.com/45-colt-custom-carbide-factory-crimp-die.html)

It does not have the carbide resizing ring in the bottom, and it presses in the crimping band from the sides, so there is no downward or angling force against the bullet like a taper or roll crimp use. You are thinking of the Factory Crimp die with the carbide resizer ring and the taper crimp sleeve in the top. this one works the same way as a collet crimp die for rifle calibers. The crimp is actuated by the shell holder pushing up on the bottom of the collet, not actuated by the case like all other styles of crimp dies. Pretty cool really, and yes you can vary the amount of crimp, and if you do it like I did, you can make the crimp band narrower so it doesn't even come in contact with the boolit, and you can shorten the collet so it brings the crimp band down to just the exact right place on the case neck.


It does not aid powder burn enough to consider.

No, but if the tension and crimp are consistent from case to case, it aids accuracy greatly.

I can see the gas check ripple and even both shoulders of the lube groove in the side of the case. I'm not concerned much about case life, as these are brand new hunting loads, equivalent to factory custom ammo, that will likely last quite a number of years before needing to be reloaded. I have other brass if I just want to load and shoot.

I'm aware of the discussion about LilGun ruining a barrel and a couple things need to be kept in mind. One of these rumors came from Freedom Arms themselves, making the claim about it ruining one of their barrels in 200-300 rounds. They did not say what loads they were testing or using, and it's a FA revolver not a midrange .45 Colt like we talking about here. H110 gets my barrel so hot I can't hold it and it don't take many shots at all! Less than two full wheels! This is with no pressure signs, it's a normal full steam load of 22.0gr under a 340gr boolit. In 30 rounds, it becomes uncomfortable to unload the gun due to the heat.

Hogdon did recall one lot number of LilGun several years back, but they say there is absolutely no grounds to that rumor if it is used within published load data. Whole lot more wildcat rounds use it and them boys aren't posting pics of eroded chamber throats.

[44man]

Good point. The boolit begins to move when the primer fires.
Peak pressure must be at some point after the boolit left the case. It would depend on the type powder how far.
Internal ballistics is interesting. Until there is a clear chamber/barrel to film it all, and watch in slow motion how will anyone really know.
This is right, we do not know. We can not guess.
The most amazing thing is that we can shoot guns like we do.
BP is labeled as an explosive yet has a controlled burn in a gun. Smokeless is different and listed as flammable but can act like BP with a progressive burn. BP does not explode in a gun. It just plain burns, adding pressure.
Smokeless has more energy and needs more control with a whole range of burn rates.
It is the moving boolit that prevents an explosion in any case.

[44man]

This is the die I use, shown with the carbide collet removed from the die body:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/lee45-dis_lbl-crop_zps1d5758d9.jpg

Link to manufacturer's page: 45 Colt Custom Carbide Factory Crimp Die - Lee Precision (http://leeprecision.com/45-colt-custom-carbide-factory-crimp-die.html)

It does not have the carbide resizing ring in the bottom, and it presses in the crimping band from the sides, so there is no downward or angling force against the bullet like a taper or roll crimp use. You are thinking of the Factory Crimp die with the carbide resizer ring and the taper crimp sleeve in the top. this one works the same way as a collet crimp die for rifle calibers. The crimp is actuated by the shell holder pushing up on the bottom of the collet, not actuated by the case like all other styles of crimp dies. Pretty cool really, and yes you can vary the amount of crimp, and if you do it like I did, you can make the crimp band narrower so it doesn't even come in contact with the boolit, and you can shorten the collet so it brings the crimp band down to just the exact right place on the case neck.



No, but if the tension and crimp are consistent from case to case, it aids accuracy greatly.

I can see the gas check ripple and even both shoulders of the lube groove in the side of the case. I'm not concerned much about case life, as these are brand new hunting loads, equivalent to factory custom ammo, that will likely last quite a number of years before needing to be reloaded. I have other brass if I just want to load and shoot.
Sounds great, different then I have seen.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The difference between a propellant and an explosive is the speed of the burn. All of these things burn at so many feet per second.

The reason why Smokless has more energy than BP is because it uses Nitro Glycerin for fuel instead of charcoal and sulfur.

Different powders have different amounts of Nitro in them. For example, Bullseye is 40% nitro, Most rifle powders are in the 10-12% nitro range. Burn rates are controlled by nitro content, grain size and shape, and there are a few other components mixed into the brew as well that have an effect.

There is ALOT to know here and more to actually understand. It is a serious lifetimes worth of work to know and understand gunpowder.

I read alot of technical stuff but really the information about the real fine nuts and bolts of gunpowder is superfluous information. What you need to understand is how to use the stuff well enough to get your desired results. All the rest comes under the heading of interesting reading you probably will just skim over and not absorb.

Relatively speaking, all of us here are pretty much ametuers. Some are more tallented than others, but none the less amatuers. I can't even spell "ametuer" right, so you know where i'm at.

Randy

[44man]

I have Lil Gun here and used it in a Freedom .357. 12 shots and I could solder with the barrel.
Freedom was getting guns back with damage under warranty from the powder.
I shot IHMSA for years with 296, 40 and 80 round matches and never had too hot a gun and burn rate never changed for a loss of accuracy.
The 4227's would gain pressure and velocity in a few shots and keep hitting lower and lower. At 200 meters I would be 16 clicks higher with the sight on the last ram and hit 50 meters short. That powder went away for me very fast.
2400 never gave me any problem at all.
Powder for the caliber is very important. 4227 worked like a charm in the .357 Max. It failed in the .44.
Lil Gun was made for the .410 and just might work in some revolver calibers but after seeing the heat, it scares me. There is a point where I stop because I can not afford to fix or buy guns.
Will Lil Gun work in the .44? How about the .500? I have no idea because I will not use it. 4227 will never go in my .44 either.

[DougGuy]

Think 1100 - 1150f/s is possible for this 260gr LSWC-GC using 10.0gr to 11.0gr Herco?

[44man]

Think 1100 - 1150f/s is possible for this 260gr LSWC-GC using 10.0gr to 11.0gr Herco?
That will work fine. There are a whole range of powders that will get the velocity wanted.
Reserve H110 and 296 for near max or max loads. Both of these have shown to be little affected by heat in the summer and hot guns.
Some claim they are not good in cold with a standard primer but I believe other factors are in play. I have had great results from -10* to -20* back in Ohio with the Fed 150. It could be as simple as case tension. I no longer live where it gets that cold so I have no worry's.
The important thing to me is I never had any sort of failure with the .44 since 1956 and with 10 different guns.
I was a huge fan of Elmer and was shooting over 400 and 500 yards in 1956 with the .44. It is still my favorite caliber. I might have done more work with it then anyone but Elmer. I once took a pile of hair off a running woodchuck at a measured 550 yards, open sights, off hand with the original 429421 and 22 gr of 2400.
I do understand the gun and have made it work better. 57 years has to account for something.

[DougGuy]

That's some good shooting 44man, thanks for posting. I would use 2400 for this if I had found any. Reloading is starting to look like one of those cooking shows where the poor chef opens the basket, and has to make something with what's in the basket...

I have four loads to test, one with 19.0gr of LilGun, and that's in the Hogdon data so it's a bonafide load, the other three are 10.0, 10.5, and 11.0gr of Herco.

btw, if you want to make the degree symbol "°" hold the alt key and type 248 then let it up.. :)

[44man]

I did not know that and will try it. Thank you.
First try 700----Nope, did not work.
Be careful with Lil Gun and feel the barrel.

[W.R.Buchanan]

"57 years has to account for something."


Yes it does!

Randy

[Whiterabbit]

It does but when a boolit moves, pressure is reduced. Peak is when the boolit is static before it moves. From there on, pressure goes down. Does that mean powder quits burning?

According to Applied Ballistics, peak happens after the bullet travels a fraction of an inch, but definitely not at bullet movement = zero. That after that, the rapidly burning powder can not compensate for the rapidly increasing burn space.

That the exact point of course is variable due to powder burn rate, single base, double base, perforated vs non perf powders, etc...

[Whiterabbit]

No Sir.

I used the wrong title. My apologies.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/understanding-firearm-ballistics-robert-a-rinker/1112894141?ean=9780964559844

"Understanding Firearm Ballistics: Basic to Advanced Ballistics Simplified, Illustrated and Explained "

[44man]

Of course the boolit will start to move and much movement can be from primer pressure before the powder even lights. Just don't know how much before peak but boolit inertia and how it is held by brass or rifling will determine things and distance.
Burn rates come into play and all Bullseye might be gone before any movement.
Peak still seems to indicate maximum resistance from boolit movement. Large amounts of slow powder also increases resistance.
The free bore in Weatherby magnums reduces initial resistance to lower chamber pressure. You just do not need extreme high peak pressures to attain high velocities.
We can debate where the boolit is at peak but the fact is, the pressure is from a boolit holding things back and not up to speed. If a boolit had zero weight, zero resistance, the pressure would be a flat line to the muzzle and near zero.
Any boolit held tighter or if heavier will move peak back. One jammed into rifling, moves peak back.
Reading internal ballistics is fine but anything you do from a primer change, 1/2 gr more powder, boolit weight, drive length, lube, diameter of boolit, case tension, crimp and a few thousand other things will change internal ballistics.
I am not going to be told peak is 1/16" out of the brass or anyplace else. Nobody knows! Peak is only from resistance to pressure.

[Whiterabbit]

of course. I was just correcting the notion that peak pressure happens before the bullet moves. It doesn't. In post #44 someone agreed with you, that the exact point is undetermined. Just >0.

[GaryN]

Originally posted by Bill Weddle
You will never know what the velocity truly is until the loads are shot out your gun and over your chronograph. I have measured some really fast boolits out of 4". Books are good but do not represent individual guns.

When I first got my chronograph in 1983 I used to marvel at the difference I got on readings from my chronograph compared to the reloading manuals. There really can be a huge difference.