Got a new toy to play with....

[Harry O]

I have been shooting BP cartridge for quite a while (41 Long Colt, 45-70, 38-40, and 44-40), but I ran across a new toy that was cheap enough to play with for a while. It is an Armi San Marco Remington 1858 clone in .44 cal. I know that ASM has been out of business for a while, but this one is in very good condition and feels tight. Locks up properly on all chambers and looks like it is times pretty well. It has been used, but not abused. He threw in some #11 caps, some lubed patches, and a tube of BP lube.

Unfortunately, I found out that .451RB and .454RB are sold out (tried two different Cabela's on the way home tonight -- it was a 3 hour drive). I will be ordering a Lee mould that is still available a few places.

While I was there, he showed me his latest toy. It was a new replica Sharps in 50-140 caliber. He had loaded up several boxes of BP cartridges. That one makes my 45-70 look like a cap gun. I hope his shoulder can take it. He was as old as me and I get out of whack a lot easier and don't heal very fast any more.

[FredW]

I've been thinking about getting one of the 1858 Remingtons for some time now. I've allways shot Colt 1861 and 1851 Navies as well as 1860 Armies, but I like the look of the Remington solid frame.

[Nobade]

Yep, 1858 Remingtons are wonderful. Can't say the same thing about 50-140s though. They are good for other people.

-Nobade

[Mike Brooks]

I'd watch somebody else shoot a 50-140 as long as an ambulance was standing by, but wouldn't shoot one myself unless the gun went at least 25lbs.
I have some old ASM revolvers that shoot and function fine. be aware spare parts are a problem.....

[John Boy]

I found out that .451RB and .454RB are sold out
Harry, use 457's if you have them. The cylinder is going to shave off the excess

[Harry O]

The replica Sharps probably weighed about 12 pounds (a little heavier than my Garand, but not much), but that is lighter than one I would want to fire.

When it comes to ball diameter, I will try .457" too. However, they are not available either. There were no balls available in the Kearney Cabelas and only a couple of boxes (of larger than 50cal) in the Omaha Cabelas. I want to try different sizes before I buy a mould, but it looks like the people with round-ball assault rifles are stockpiling ammunition for them, too.

[Battis]

I use .454 roundballs. The .451s are too small, the .457s will work but ramming them puts more pressure on the loading lever. The cylinder pins on the Remingtons do not have grease grooves like the Colts, so they tend to bind up quickly.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

The past several years at Quigley I have been fortunate enough to be sandwiched between my brother and his 50-90 and a guy from SD who shoots a 10lb 50-140 twice. The blast wave is incredible.

[Harry O]

A friend of mine (in town) had an extra box of .454 RB's that he "loaned" me. Looks like I will be trying that diameter first.

[Boz330]

A friend of mine (in town) had an extra box of .454 RB's that he "loaned" me. Looks like I will be trying that diameter first.

Loaned????? They are going to might flat when you give them back.:kidding: Sorry that just struck me funny and I couldn't resist.

Bob

[jlchucker]

I use .454 roundballs. The .451s are too small, the .457s will work but ramming them puts more pressure on the loading lever. The cylinder pins on the Remingtons do not have grease grooves like the Colts, so they tend to bind up quickly. Long ago I had a base pin (cylinder pin) altered by turning a few "lube grooves", equally spaced, on a lathe. As I recall, the grooves were only about .005 deep. An easy job for a machinist with a lathe--but the cuts will be "interrupted" because that cylinder pin has a long flat on it. This didn't do anything to weaken the pin, and it's been in my gun for over 20 years now. The grooves were 1/16th wide, spaced about a quarter inch apart, located in the portion of the pin that will be in the center of the cylinder hole. My pin has 3 such grooves, and it seems to carry enough lube in those grooves to minimize the cylinder from seizing up during shooting. I haven't looked at that revolver for a long time--just looked today while typing this response. I probably could have done one more groove, if this were back when I had it done, but what I have seems to work.

[Harry O]

I finally got to the outdoor range (the indoor range is a lot closer, but they don't allow black powder inside). Got some things sorted out. Got some questions.

Sorted out: I had a hard time keeping #11 caps on. #10 caps worked great. I started out with 25gr of Swiss 3F BP. I was having problems with the caps (both #10's and #11's) blowing off and jamming the action. When I reduced it to 20gr, it worked great (at least with #10's). I used the .454 RB's. I may try the .457's when they are available for reasons mentioned below.

Questions: When I tried my first cylinder (25gr Swiss and #11 caps), it fired the first chamber and then every OTHER cylinder. I thought that the caps fell off and expected to have three loaded chambers left when I finished. I was wrong. All of the cylinders were empty. There were only three holes in the target. When the hammer dropped on the second, 4th & 6th cylinders, there was no sound -- not even a cap firing. I thought that the recoil may have driven the balls out of the cylinder, but could not find any on the ground in front of where we were shooting. I loaded up 6 more with 25gr of Swiss and #10's and it did exactly the same thing. It seems to be a mystery. The next thing I did was reduce the load to 20gr and #10's and all six chambers fired. I would be interested if anyone has any idea what happened.

The gun is accurate, but it got dirtier than any gun I have ever fired before. I had done a lot of shooting with black powder cartridge in SAA clones, Colt 1892 series DA's, and a few lever action rifles. I also started back in the GOEX days. That is a lot dirtier than Swiss. I was only able to get 5 or 6 cylinders full before it was totally impossible to move the center cylinder pin. I will be adding grooves to the center pin like suggested above, but EVERYTHING was clogged with B P fouling, not just the center pin. I shot my 41LC SAA clones and a Colt 1892 afterward with BP and did not have any more than normal fouling in them. Certainly not enough to stop me from shooting.

BTW, Boz330. I will be returning the .454's to my friend, but not the same ones. He insisted on a new box whenever they are available again. Seemed reasonable to me.

[Battis]

Is it possible that you had 3 two-chamber fires? The powder and balls were gone? Were the caps in place and unfired?
I've had multi-chamber fires before but only one chamber at a time. The cause of mine was irregular shaped (poorly cast) roundballs. Other shooters say it's a bad cap fit that causes them.
Did you pinch the #11 caps or just place them? If #10 caps fit, and the hammer ignited them on the first strike, then go with them.
BP fouling, and spent caps jamming the works, in percussion revolvers is the nature of that beast.
Before you cut grooves in the narrow cylinder pin, try my method - I use the spray PAM on the pin. It works great, even on my original Remington New Model .44. I do clean the pin and spray it before each full loading. I even spray a little over the loaded balls in the chambers in place of Crisco, Bore Butter, etc.

[John Boy]

Harry, your issues are not the amount of the powder charge - it's the nipples! ASM nipples are s**t. Call Long Hunter and see if the Slix nipples for the Uberti or Pietta will fit your ASM. They are stainless steel vented with a hole which reduces the back pressure. That is your issue ... blowback through the nipple hole. I shoot 35gr FFFg in my C&B 44 caliber, 51's and 58's, using either #10 or #11 caps with 457 balls with the Slix nipples. Every cylinder fires flawlessly and the spent caps fall off nicely
http://longhunt.com/storelh/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=267

PS: If you are not using FFFg grade powder, your wasting your time

[Harry O]

I thought about the possibility of a chain fire, but it did not seem to fit what I had. First, it was the second, 4th, and 6th cylinder both times. I did not think a chain fire was that regular. Also, I would have thought that firing two would have felt quite a bit different than firing one. There was some variation in the felt recoil, but I figured that was because I did not weigh the charges. I was using a brass dispenser with a 25gr nozzle the first couple of times and a 20gr nozzle the rest of the times. Because of the possibility of a chain fire, however, I plan to try a 0.457" ball as soon as I can find some.

I squeezed the #11 caps the best I could, but it is pretty hard to get my fingers in there. The #10's were tighter and pushed right on with some (but not much) effort. I already cut grooves in the center pin, but I guess PAM couldn't hurt.

I thought about the nipples, but I don't have a nipple wrench that works yet. I will do some checking on the thread size for the ASM. BTW, I am using Swiss FFFg BP. It works great in my BP cartridges.

[Battis]

The two chain fires I had were in a Spiller & Burr .36, which is similar to the Remington with the top strap. Both times, the second chamber that fired was to the left of the barrel (looking down the barrel), and the balls kinda puffed out at a 45 degree angle to the ground. Little extra flash and smoke but no big deal. Yours is a mystery.
I don't think the .457 will help unless the chambers are extra wide. Did you grease over the loaded balls in the chambers?
Were the caps in place and unfired in the empty chambers?

[John Boy]

Harry, if you want an education about caps, read this ... http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=9093.0
And about the size of the Slix nipples. on the Tresco chart ASM and Pietta are the same size

And since you don't seem to want to buy good nipples - have you cleaned the flash holes in all your nipples?

[Harry O]

Battis: No, I did not put grease over the balls after loading. I had some with me, but with the amount of force it took to seat the balls, I did not think it was necessary. However, each one that did not fire was to the left of the one that fired, just like yours. It is beginning to sound more and more like a limited chain fire.

John Boy: Yes, I did clean the nipples. I used to do oxy-actylene welding in the past. One of the things I used for cleaning this is what I used to clean the torch heads so that the flame is symmetrical. It is a small box with a bunch of different sized wires in it (very small to quite a bit larger) that are deformed sort of like threads. You run them down the hole in the torch to scrape out anything that is stuck inside. I did the same with the nipples before firing. They were clean, as was the rest of the gun before firing.

I am not adverse to buying new nipples. I just want to make sure I get the right ones. I looked at my "Track of the Wolf, Inc." catalog and they have a couple of dozen different sizes.

[Battis]

I'd check the shape of the balls - look for irregular shapes, divots, etc. Were they home cast or store bought? Any divots in the chambers?

[Harry O]

No divots in the balls. They are Hornady swaged. No divots in the chambers. They are as smooth as can be.

[John Boy]

Harry, let's move one with your mystery cylinder throats ... clean the nipples in mineral solvent, coat the threads with anti-sieve. Go to the hardware store and buy a nipple bit or just make one the wrench out of a screw driver. Load 5 cylinders with 35gr FFFg powder - a lubed felt wad (0.090 soaked in crisco) - seat a pure lead 457 RB - seat the proper size cap - go to the range and shoot the darn ASM instead of talking about it. Put up 25 yd targets, take pictures and come back with your excellent groups.
Cap & Ball Percussion revolvers are not like designing the Space Shuttle. There are a few articles here if you want to read them for C&B's ...
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?board=31.0


Good Luck and Enjoy!

[Battis]

I'd also take it to the range and shoot it but in a different way - one chamber at a time until I found out why there are 3 out of 6 roundballs unaccounted for. If the .454s loaded hard, the .457s will be worse and you might bend or break the loading lever.