.32 ACP carbine SHTF critter getter.

[ABluehound]

I have been researching building a carbine in pistol caliber for some time now. My first requirement is to have a small light weight inconspicuous (humble) rifle along the lines of the bicycle rifles of the late 1890's that shares magazines with my pistol. Second is for it to be relatively silent without a silencer ala a SHTF critter getter to take down the same things I would use a sub-sonic .22 on only with double the confidence.

I do not want repeat of my last project: modifying an Ishapore Enfield to fire .45 ACP that uses stock Glock 21 mags. It will eventually to be a Short barrel rifle + silencer if I can justify paying for the 2 NFA tax stamps. It was a long build because of the research and parts gathering and trial and error that taught me much about patience.

I was looking at .32 ACP and 9 mm to have one load work for both pistol and rifle. I eliminated the .22 right off the bat because I want the ability to reload boollits with 50 yard rabbit head shot accuracy for the carbine. I eliminated the 9 mm because a bullet/boolit that is strong enough to reliably cycle the action of my pistol would still be too loud to fulfill my silent without a silencer from a carbine requirement. I am sure I could experiment and find a pet load for both in 9 mm but at the moment the .32 wins because it is easier since most loads are subsonic and less traumatic to small game but, still has the power to humanely put down livestock without causing a stampede or drawing unwanted attention while dispatching injured game.

So this is where someone will chime in suggesting that I use a chamber adapter to shoot .30 cal pistol rounds out of .30 cal rifles.

NO WAY! First there is something called throw, that is the distance a bullet travels before it engages the rifling. That much straight line inertia in a copper/glide metal bullet will cause undue wear in the throat and shorten the life of the barrel, in a boolit it would more immediately adversely affect accuracy and lead the barrel up. Second there is something called Obturation this happens when you pull the trigger and the pressure within the shell forces the brass to expand to completely fill the chamber and directs all of the escaping gas to push your bullet down and out of the barrel. When you use a chamber adapter that is shaped to the minimum standard dimensions and not to the chamber of your gun you run a very high chance of dirt particles and plasma gasses venting in your eyes (insert always wear safety goggles warning here!), you also expose the parts of your chamber to plasma that slowly wears away metal.

Next someone will jump in and say I should load up a hand-full of squib loads using pistol boolits for my .30 cal rifle so I can use it to take small game.

I will admit I do this fairly often now without hesitation. Here again, I will say the word obturation again, these lower pressure rounds do not cause the brass of my full size shells to properly expand to fill the chamber even with annealing and only neck sizing evidence of this is the tell tale scorch marks on the outside of the case neck and sometimes past the shoulder not to mention the rare mist of petroleum on the lens of my glasses. Reliability is also a factor unless you jump through hoops to keep your pistol powder in place over the flash hole or know how wonderful trail boss is.

I would never risk having a squib load chambered in the weapon I am relying on for self defense! Where I live the woods are full of feral pigs that seem to attack on sight and the whole little gun thing is because I do not want to over encumber myself with two large rifles.

I have chosen the Remington 580 action because it is short and I well not have to shorten the bolt or extend the barrel back into the action the way I had to when converting my Ishy. I only have one .32 ACP pistol so the magazine it will use will be for my CZ70. I am working on the barrel mounting and other barrel related details. Do I use my .308 take off from my Ishapore, or a 7.65 Argentine mouser or beg Green Mountain to sell longer length of their 32/20 pistol barrel blanks? Do I sacrifice accuracy to make it with a quick disconnect so it can store in the stock like AR-7's or just come apart like marlin papoose? Do I go fancy and contour the folding/removable stock to hinge open to wrap around and protect the action and the small reflex sight mounted on top of the rifle?

Sorry, about all the long post, guess I have lurked too long.

[FrankG]

Get one of the 7.62x39 gunsmith special barrels from them.

[MOcaster]

You might want to look into these: http://mechtechsys.com/index.php. Also, look at Keltec's Sub 2000. It only comes in 9mm and 40 S&W but it is a really cool gun.

[pipehand]

ABlueHound- I have a turnof the last century .410 shotgun that has been lined with a 30 cal liner chambered in 32H&R Mag. I shoot it with SWOS (Silent With Out Silencer) loads of 1.4 grains of VV-310 and an 85 grain cast boolit in 32S&W Long brass. It will also chamber and shoot factory 32 ACP loads. It's a petite lil' gun with an aperature sight. Considering the availability of 22 rimfire ammo. I can shoot it cheaper than bulk pack, and a whole lot cheaper than CCI Quiets.

[Multigunner]

.32 ACP can pick up some serious velocity from a 16 inch barrel.
There was a semi auto .32 ACP small game rifle marketed years ago. These sold fairly well in Europe but not so much in the US.

I have a couple of cut off sections of .303 SMLE barrels, one from a barrel with eroded away leade and the other from a new condition replacement barrel that had a double drilled rear sight cross pin hole that nearly entered the bore. Neither would have been safe for use on a SMLE so I salvaged the un damaged rifled portions intending to build a .32 S&W long bicycle rifle. Never got around to it though.

One might find an old shot out .22 hornet or similar small bolt action rifle as a donor to rebarrel to .32.
Not many of those around in any condition, and usually pricey.

[rmatchell]

pipehand... That sounds like something I need to look into, It would be a fun cheap gun to shoot and I would bet that the brass would last the rest of my life.

[45 2.1]

So this is where someone will chime in suggesting that I use a chamber adapter to shoot .30 cal pistol rounds out of .30 cal rifles.

NO WAY! First there is something called throw, that is the distance a bullet travels before it engages the rifling. That much straight line inertia in a copper/glide metal bullet will cause undue wear in the throat and shorten the life of the barrel, in a boolit it would more immediately adversely affect accuracy and lead the barrel up. Second there is something called Obturation this happens when you pull the trigger and the pressure within the shell forces the brass to expand to completely fill the chamber and directs all of the escaping gas to push your bullet down and out of the barrel. When you use a chamber adapter that is shaped to the minimum standard dimensions and not to the chamber of your gun you run a very high chance of dirt particles and plasma gasses venting in your eyes (insert always wear safety goggles warning here!), you also expose the parts of your chamber to plasma that slowly wears away metal.

I can see you've never used one with hand loaded cast before. They work extremely well, to the point of doing exactly what you want done. They do well for squirrels also....... and I hardly think they produce anything close to what a normal cartridge does to the rifle. There only problem is speed of reloading the adapter. You might try it since they're very reasonable.

On another note..... I would hardly want to be hunting with such an inadequate caliber if the Stuff really did hit the fan because you would be the prey instead of the hunter eventually.

[rintinglen]

I had an adapter that fit in the chamber of my 30-06 that allowed the use of 32 ACP. IIRC, I bought it from an ad in a gun mag back around 74. It functioned fine and was adequately accurate for head-shooting a squirrel at 30 feet, but the POA and POI were so far divergent from my hunting loads that it didn't really work out for me. When I sold the rifle, I lost track of the adapter. I wonder if I still have it?

[45 2.1]

In most of the 30 caliber military rifles with a fixed "battle sight" and flip up ladder, the adapter load is close to the fixed battle sight for POI/POA.

[Multigunner]

There was a version of the Armi Jaeger replica of the Ar-15 that fired the .32 ACP cartridge, standard models were in .22 RF.
The .32 ACP version is rare, and mostly used as theatrical blank firing rifles. One can be seen in the original "Dawn of the Dead" movie, recognizable by the pistol type magazine that inserts into a dummy magazine cast into the frame.

[PS Paul]

A Member since 2010 and this is your SECOND POST? and what a post it is!! I am going to be watching with great interest cuz it sounds like just so much FUN!

[Artful]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121184-Remington-580-into-a-9X19-pumpkin-gun

[ABluehound]

FrankG - I have looked at the AK barrels and it looks like the 1:9 twist might be a great for the heavier end 90 - 100 grain .311 bullets. I was under the impression the ideal was 1:11 or 1:12 but I may be wrong because this is a slow moving projectile.

MOCaster - I like Mach Tech stuff but, my goal for this is something that looks very humble that is not likely to draw much attention. That and 9 mm is on the fuzzy edge of to big for what I need.

pipehand - that sounds like a sweet rig.

2152hq - I thought .32 was .311. The SBR I mentioned is my modernized teched-up Delisle carbine. I think my ideal twist to have a stable bullet is the 32/20 barrel its a 1:12 and a .312 diameter I just wish I could find it in a 20 inch blank.

This would not be a primary weapon, it is meant to be a beefed up pack weapon with re-loadable bullets. I looked at what I needed the gun to do, picked the bullet weight and speed will fit that need. I decided on a cartridge that I felt was most common within the range of my specs. Picked the action best fitted for my need and now I am working on implementation.

The partner gun is a CZ70 and though I have never slugged the barrel but i would guess its a bit looser than a new American chambering, eyeballing down the pipe I would guess it is a 1:16 and is made that slow to accommodate faster and lighter European loads like Fiocci. My CZ pistol spits out 8~75 grain zardoz style modded C309-120-R boolits into a single ragged 1 inch hole at 7 yards, I would like to be able to find a barrel that will take the same load out to 50+ yards in the carbine.

My theory on SHTF weapons is the more humble/common my rig is the less likely I am going to be forced to shoot someone to keep it. I own lots of fancy "Black rifles" and combat worthy side arms that I enjoy having and they will likely never see action. They are great for protecting the homestead and holding the high ground when bunkered-up. The more fancy and geared out a weapon is in a SHTF scenario the more likely to inspire someone to eliminate you so they can have it for themselves so they can show it off to other thugs who will in turn be murdered by the next thug that wants it. I will stick with banged up stressed deer rifle that looks like its rolled around in the bilge of a gator boat for 20 years, one that leaves you to think you need a tetanus shot just for seeing it (and still a tack driver).

Artsful - there is also this gem too: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?99523-I-sort-of-cheated-or-quot-My-quot-32-rifle-thread

[Nobade]

I made something similar to what you describe out of a 580 in 9mm. Works great. A 32 ACP would do very well also.

It's a neat little 4 lb. rifle for my youngest daughter. It took a while to come up with a good load for it, but now it'll hold an inch at 50M with the peep sights. Pretty powerful little thing.

-Nobade

[ABluehound]

I spent the past week going through options on barrel choices. I was trying to find my closest option to the common land/groove and twist rate used in commercial .32 ACP arms. I looked at every barrel manufacturer I could find trying to find (.301/.311 @ ~1:16) and was not successful and what was close was several times my budget. I examined relining, I called a couple places about reboring my project rifle; this was very tempting because it would save me from a lot of work and expense fitting and re-bluing a new barrel and for only double what I want to spend. With such amazing tooling they would be able to re-bore to my ideal specifications and greatly simplify my project. I would only need to deal with cutting the chamber, head-spacing, and converting the bolt.

So, more research. Using the Bauman-Howell rifling twist calculator I came up with from 1:20 to 1:25 based on the range of what bullets I expect to feed it. This formula appears geared towards high velocity rifle bullets because this is not what I expected. ( http://kwk.us/twist.html ).

I read an article by Joe Brennan at http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_2-3_Twist.htm, and the biggest thing I got from it is "nothing very bad happens from over stabilization", I.E. Too fast of a twist is not catastrophic. He cites one letter from John Ardito which he mentions his observations using faster twist rates than necessary on Pb projectiles causing an insignificant loss of velocity.

From my own recollection, I have played with a Ruger MK II using 60 grain Aguila SSS, and saw key-holing from the stock twist rate (1:16). This disappeared after I switched to a 1:9 twist and I have had no problems with accuracy firing high velocity light bullets out of the faster twist. So my tiny experience makes me a little more comfortable with faster twist rate barrels for my project. I am just going to slug my CZ so I an at least be consistent with the shaft diameter between the the rifle and the pistol and be done with it.

I was going about things wrong, I need a mantra to repeat to myself...

"I am not building 2 KM PEP (precision energy placement device) I am building a plinker."

[Nobade]

I'd just use one of Green Mountain's $30 gunsmith special 30 caliber blanks. Make sure your reamer has a replaceable pilot so it'll work in the barrel of your choice and it will work just fine.

I have done a lot of 32 H&R and 32-20 guns with faster twist 30 caliber barrels, and they work great with pistol boolits or heavier rifle boolits. With a 1:10 you can even shoot those 245gr. whisper boolits if you can get them in there.

-Nobade

[Multigunner]

There should be .308 barrel blanks with 1:14" twist still available. twist rates for the .308 generally run from 1:12 to 1:14.
I remember reading of a U S Marksmanship outfit in Germany rebarreling .32 S&W Long wadcutter target pistols using cut off M14 barrels. They'd found that available target ammo had bullets around .309 dia. Group sizes were greatly improved by the rebarreling.

A take off barrel with eroded throat but good rifling further up may be found fairly cheap. Not sure if the chomelining would make cutting a chamber difficult.
Some Sniper and target barrels don't have the chrome lining.

[PS Paul]

The concept sounds like it has a great deal of potential. I don't have enough 'smithin experience to give any helpful pointers or point you to any solutions, but I CAN reaffirm your thoughts and ideas that this should be a pretty cool deal for a useful little rifle that would draw little attention from anyone who might have ideas about takin' your "nice rifle" if the SHTF. i would also challenge anyone who doubts the efficiacy of the .32 ACP as a viable small game-getter to stand out at 100 yards and catch one with a baseball glove after firin' it from even a small, short0barreled auto pistol. he he.

[NSP64]

ABluehound
P.M sent

[Mohillbilly]

I shoot 32 ACPs out of my 9" single six . They are very quiet . I think maybe I will try the ACP load in my 32H&R cowboy as a single shot .

[JeffinNZ]

Like Multigunner I have used a .303 Brit barrel for a similar project. My .32-20 Martini on a converted rimfire action wears a 18 inch SMLE barrel and a suppressor. Spins everything from 100 to 240gr boolits.

[Outpost75]

I have a Remington 580 which was converted to centerfire and fitted with a .30 cal., 10-inch twist barrel and chambered in. 32 ACP using the front portion of a .30M1 carbine reamer, so that it would have a proper rifle type throat, and also headspace on the casemouth, like a .45 ACP.

Mine is a single shot and uses a pinned in barrel. A new bolthead was fabricatedand fitted with an M16 extractor, and modified to use a shortened M16 firing pin. Using cast #3118 Ideal 115-grain .32-20 bullets and 1 grain of Bullseye it is almost entirely silent, like a .30 cal.CB cap. It also shoots well with ordinary. 32 ACP ammo, but is louder. Accuracy with the best loads is about 3/4" at 25 yards and about 2" at 50 yards with 4Xscope. A good .22 LR with match ammo is less expensive, as quiet and more accurate.

[ABluehound]

JeffinNZ, I can put those weights to better use when I get around to my next project, I doubt my brass will hold up to the pressure for anything close to 200 grains. My target range is to fire from 50 - 100 grains and more likely ~75 grain lead bullets.

Outpost, that is an awesome idea to use the .30 Carbine reamer, I still have not found a .32 ACP one. I was just looking at AR family extractors today (along with a bunch for pistols). I would love to see some pictures of how you did your bolt face (firing pin extractor). Did you go with a recessed face and the AR pin type ejector also? AR parts are very handy...

My current drawings have a flat bolt face with the bottom lowered and widened enough to feed from a magazine and uses a stationary ejector that is part of the magazine frame and will use a cut down Remington 788 firing pin and springs and the Sako extractor claw kit.

Last week I got my 30 Cal donor barrel, it is from a 300 WSM I liked it better than my Enfield take off barrels and it appears to be unfired with very crisp lands grooves. I am just waiting to finalize my bolt plans before threading the barrel and receiver.

I also had a piece of 1 1/2 X 6 X 36 Inch block of 2024 Al fall into my hands which has me constantly doodling different stock ideas. Most likely it will end up on the next rifle in my project pile... The same thing only chambered in 7.62X25 to feed from my Romanian TTC mags.

[Jeff Michel]

Ed Harris wrote a very descriptive article on how to convert a 580 series rifle to .32acp. I can't find the link but it's on the Cast Bullet Forum, shouldn't be hard to find via search

[Outpost75]

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[ironhead7544]

.30 Carbine with a fast twist and heavy bullets might work. Or a shorter case version. Marlin had a levergun in 30 Carbine.

[uncle jed]

Manson Reamers .32acp reamer, solid pilot $80.00 plus shipping, removeable pilot $110.00, >32HR mag $110.00 std. plus shipping. out of 2013 catalog

[uncle jed]

Sorry but I posted before i was through. The.32H&R mag reamer comes standard with removeable pilot. Hope that cleared up any confosion. thanks, uncle jed