Alloy statement do you agree?

[HARRYMPOPE]

From an online cast bullet alloy thread-

"Alloys such as monotype (19% Sb) and stereotype (23% Sb) are so brittle that bullets cast of them can actually break in two by simply chambering a round or dropping it on the floor"

"If you’re going to cast of straight linotype they are quite hard at 22 BHN and should be used with a load that generates a minimum of 31,000 PSI to assure obturation "

For the first 10 years i cast all i had was mono,stereo and lino.I shot it in 357mag, 44 mag (full and target loads),30-30 plainbase and full loads as well as all other cast loads from 22 Hornet to 45-70.I never felt my accuracy was bad and bullets never broke in two on me.If anything i think i shot better with those "brittle" alloys rather than my scrap stuff i use most often now.Is it just me?

George

[Lloyd Smale]

complete bs. Ive shot it in everything from 38 specials to rifles. I shot a 1100 lb buffalo with a lineotype bullet out of my 475 and it smashed both shoulders and if it fractured the pieces are out in the field as they sure didnt stay in the buffalo. I think there may be a chance of it fracturing at rifle velocitys but no more then water dropped ww bullets. Only handgun bullets ive ever seen fracture were some cast performance bullets at one linebaugh seminar that were water dropped 92 6 2 alloy bullets. If a bullet fractures feeding into a gun it was fractured before probally from dropping it to hot out of a mold. As to bumping up. If your gun is built right and your bullet is sized right it will shoot better then any gun that needs a bullet to bump up. If my guns are out of spec so badly that i have to use a soft bullet to bump up to get them to shoot respectably ill either fix them or they go down the road.

[Fluxed]

Total BS.

(the original post)

[runfiverun]

I have found once I hit a happy load with good fit, making the boolits harder does no harm, and will sometimes enhance accuracy.
sometimes going softer does the same thing.
I was able to enhance accuracy in my 223 at 2700+ fps by cutting the linotype boolit alloy in half with pure lead.
I lost some accuracy by adding back some tin, and gained a bit more by water dropping....[shrug]

[williamwaco]

I have never used those alloys.
I seriously doubt the assertion unless the alloys are much used and the tin is depleted.

Linotype is very hard but it is not brittle. It will not shatter.

Back when I started casting, wheel weights were much harder than they are now.
Some of them were brittle and would shatter.

After smelting 10 or 20 pounds of wheel weights we would flux and reflux then cast a few bullets.
After they cooled, we would lay them on a concrete slab ( usually the driveway ) and smack them with a hammer.
If they flattened, we used that pot to make bullets. If they shattered, we diluted it 50% with scrap lead usually pure and repeated the experiment.

Incidentally, this test was out equivalent of BNH testing.

[fecmech]

My past experience with the .357 and .44 mag indicates better accuracy with lino or 50/50 mix lino /ww in mag handguns at mag velocities. It does not seem to matter as much with the pistol cal rifles. Lino is sure nice stuff to cast with!

[wgr]

i would say no unless it has a higher than normal antimony content

[cbrick]

From an online cast bullet alloy thread-

"Alloys such as monotype (19% Sb) and stereotype (23% Sb) are so brittle that bullets cast of them can actually break in two by simply chambering a round or dropping it on the floor"

"If you’re going to cast of straight linotype they are quite hard at 22 BHN and should be used with a load that generates a minimum of 31,000 PSI to assure obturation "

For the first 10 years i cast all i had was mono,stereo and lino.I shot it in 357mag, 44 mag (full and target loads),30-30 plainbase and full loads as well as all other cast loads from 22 Hornet to 45-70.I never felt my accuracy was bad and bullets never broke in two on me.If anything i think i shot better with those "brittle" alloys rather than my scrap stuff i use most often now. Is it just me? George

The quote says Monotype (19% Sb) and Stereotype (23% Sb) and most posts here attributed the statement to lino (5% Sb). If you don't think alloy at 19% or 23% antimony isn't quite brittle guess again.

So to answer the question asked by the OP in the thread title . . . Yes I agree, very brittle and it is possible to break the boolit.

If you want to attribute the statement to lino, no I don't agree but the quoted statement doesn't say a lino bullet will break in half.

Rick

EDIT to add photo: A mono bullet . . .

67850

[cbrick]

Linotype is very hard but it is not brittle. It will not shatter.

Back when I started casting, wheel weights were much harder than they are now.
Some of them were brittle and would shatter.

Interesting. Perhaps strange would be a better word.

If I have that figured out correctly lino at 12% Sb is not brittle and will not shatter.

But . . .

The old WW had at most 6% Sb and some of them WILL shatter.

Do I have this figured out correctly?

Rick

[Lloyd Smale]

guess i have to go with cbrick. Reading the post again he was refering to mono and sterotype and yes those alloys can be to brittle as is for bullet making. I jumped in to fast thinking he was refering to linotype. Linotype gets a bad rap all the time for being to hard and brittle and in the 30 plus years ive casted with it and shot it i just havent seen it.

[cbrick]

I've seen it Lloyd, not in game animals but on the 200 meter steel rams in silhouette. Years ago I used lino and in match after match I would hit a ram square and leave it standing there. The lino instead of imparting it's momentum on the target and pushing it over would loose all of it's momentum shattering on the target. In the years since I switched to WW I haven't left a hit ram standing. I've heard of lino shattering on heavy bones in game animals but I haven't experienced that myself.

Lino sure does make a purty boolit though. :mrgreen:

Rick

[Fluxed]

Lino is not brittle in the way described here. Can't say from experience about the other alloys mono or stereo, but I've shot lots of linotype and if anything its hardness simply makes it penetrate better than softer lead.

[cbrick]

Lino is not brittle in the way described here.

Re-read the statement, it is not about lino.

Lino in the quoted statement was not described as breaking or anything else.

Rick

[btroj]

I dont like any blanket statements regarding any alloy.
Monotype is pretty hard and brittle. It may cast a beautiful bullet but it will shatter of hit very hard with a hammer.
Linotype makes a pretty bullet but it isn't what I would want for many situations.

Why not just match the alloy to the application instead of trying to say one size fits all?

[Threepersons]

In 1981 I bought 2 tons of Linotype and 400 lbs. of Monotype. I'm down
to 600 lbs of Linotype now. Sure love casting boolits out of those
alloys. Fit is king, but hard is ok. I offen miz down to 92-6-2. Never broke
a bullet.

[Lloyd Smale]

rick i dont doubt a bit that it shattered on steal. Ive got a 25 yard shoot set up with steal silouettes of a mans chest and head that even got some give to them as they swing. There made out of 3/8s plate. Even ww bullets shatter when they hit it. Same goes with my bullet trap. All i get in the collection barrel under it is lead that is in tiny little peices no matter what the alloy is. Thing is in michigan they havent started putting steel plates in animals when there hurt so whether an alloy shatters on steal is no consern and like i said ive drove lineotype bullets through both shoulders of a 1000lb plus buffalo and that didnt shatter them. Ive also done some real extensive penetration testing and i havent seen it in that arena either. ONLY cast bullets ive seen fracture in penetration testing were water dropped ww and water dropped comercial 92, 6, 2. cast performance years ago had some bullets at the linebaugh seminar and they were cracking right in half right where the nose met the crimp grove during penetration testing. It happend in a few differnt calibers. Come to find out kelly was water dropping bullets because that way they wouldnt get dinged up dropping on top of each other from his machines. Then a couple years later we were doing some testing at home with water dropped ww 429421s and saw the same thing. I dont doubt you but have to wonder if something else wasnt going on there as a 200meters that bullet is moving pretty darned slow to be shattering. Are you sure that you were actually using lineotype or could it possibly have been monotype?
Re-read the statement, it is not about lino.

Lino in the quoted statement was not described as breaking or anything else.

Rick

[Fluxed]

Re-read the statement, it is not about lino.

Lino in the quoted statement was not described as breaking or anything else.

Rick

Reading the OP again, I'll say that it is somewhat unclear -- and your interpretation is apparently different from mine.

My comment needs no correction.

[David2011]

With respect to the original quote, I would just say that high antimony bullets are much harder than you need and would not use them without alloying with more softer, more ductile alloy.

Linotype is still harder than needed for most applications but it won't shatter as described if it is true Lino alloy. It also doesn't expand like softer alloys will on a solid target like hog shoulders but it will shoot all the way through a hog given adequate velocity.

David

[cbrick]

Reading the OP again, I'll say that it is somewhat unclear -- and your interpretation is apparently different from mine. My comment needs no correction.

I made no interpretation. None! The quote by the OP while he said it was in a thread is a direct quote off my website. You may think you read something you did not if it makes you feel warm & fuzzy but it changes nothing. The comment about breaking bullets is about monotype and stereotype. Period. Not lino.

There is nothing unclear, there are two separate paragraphs. One paragraph is on mono and stereotype and the following paragraph talks of lino.


Total BS. (the original post)

Unless you have a magic wand no, it's not BS. It's fact.

Rick

[BAGTIC]

Some of the sintered lead free bullets have been subject to breaking at the crimp. It may be the same with some of the very hard lead alloys. They may be brittle enough that they will crack under excesssive crimping pressure.

[Fluxed]

I made no interpretation. None! The quote by the OP while he said it was in a thread is a direct quote off my website. You may think you read something you did not if it makes you feel warm & fuzzy but it changes nothing. The comment about breaking bullets is about monotype and stereotype. Period. Not lino.

There is nothing unclear, there are two separate paragraphs. One paragraph is on mono and stereotype and the following paragraph talks of lino.



Unless you have a magic wand no, it's not BS. It's fact.

Rick

OK, Since its a quote of something you wrote, I'll take your word for your intention. The way the OP presented the material apparently indicates something different or is out of context. Kindly post a link so I can read your full full article. Otherwise, everyone here but you is operating in a vacuum.

[cbrick]

Kindly post a link so I can read your full full article. Otherwise, everyone here but you is operating in a vacuum.

I re-read the entire thread and it seems the only one operating in a vacuum is you. Here's some articles for you to read.

All Articles on lasc.us (http://www.lasc.us/ArticleIndex.htm)

Rick

[williamwaco]

Interesting. Perhaps strange would be a better word.

If I have that figured out correctly lino at 12% Sb is not brittle and will not shatter.

But . . .

The old WW had at most 6% Sb and some of them WILL shatter.

Do I have this figured out correctly?

Rick

The point was not that old wheel weights had x% Sb but that the old wheel weights were VERY inconsistent.