38 spcl/357 mag - major power

[Area Man]

I'm thinking of joining a range that has practical pistol competition. My understanding is PP requires an automatic to be double action and I have a 1911 which is not. So...

I may kick the tires on competing with a revolver and was hoping for some input on making major (bullet weight x velocity/1000 >/= 165)with a 357 mag.

My oldest reloading manual is a Lyman that's missing it's cover so I don't know what edition it is. There are mail in post cards that advertise Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook for $4.95 and Sierra's first reloading manual (covers every sierra Bullet!) for $4.85 if that gives you an idea. This manual makes no mention of +P loads in 38 special.

My Lyman 358156 with gas check and lube weighs 165 on the money so 1000fps gets me there.

The lists two powders that will get me there in 38 special

Unique - min 3.5 grains @ 660FPS - max 5.4 grains @ 1002FPS
2400 - min 8.0 graines @ 690 FPS - max 11.0 @ 1010 FPS

I've got Unique and like it, although I typically individually weigh charges so that slows me down.

I've got a newer Lyman manual (47th edition I think) that lists, for the same bullet a max load of 5.4 grains of Unique for 954FPS and designates that as a +P load.

The older manual used a 6" barrel, the newer lists a 4" barrel for testing. I'm sure that's the velocity difference.

So with this information I can just squeak into Major territory.

Now, the 357 Magnum using the same bullet has several powders that will get me 1000 FPS with a starting or lower end load. the powder that I have in greatest supply is H110.

That gives me two routes to Major - a juiced up 38 Special and an entry level 357 Magnum. Obviously the 38 special has to make a little more of a jump to the forcing cone. What are some other considerations are there when making this decision? Is this simply a question of load some up and see which is most accurate/easy to shoot?

[9.3X62AL]

It sounds to me like your intended revolver is indeed a 357 Magnum--correct? If so, either cartridge casing is usable to get to 1000 FPS with complete safety, because the revolver's chambers have more than sufficient strength to contain such loadings.

I would opt for the 357 casings over the 38 Specials for 2 reasons--

1) Full-length cases in 357 chambers prevent build-up of "crud rings" in the chambers between the 38 Special's case mouth end and the throats of the cylinder. I detest removing such deposits. Total PITA.

2) the 357 cases are stronger than the 38 Specials, and are less likely to stick via expansion than are 38 Specials run at high-end pressures and tie up/slow down extraction. The pressures in the Magnum cases are well below "Magnum" ratings, probably under 25K PSI, and should extract easily. Just don't short-stroke the ejector rod, and all should go well.

[KYCaster]

Hmmm...I'm not familiar with the game you're loading for. Is it USPSA/IPSC, IDPA, PPC or something else unique to that range with its own set of rules?

All the games I'm familiar with allow 1911's to compete.

Jerry

[Area Man]

From the uspsa website on lists of approved guns


Colt

2000 (29 oz.), Double Eagle (39 oz.)
Any DAO or DA/SA revolver with a barrel length of up to 8.5" is approved

I understand that to mean the gun must be double action. I've also heard that from people who have shot at club marches. Am I misinformed or misunderstanding?

[Fluxed]

You very much misunderstand. Go to one of the matches and talk to some of the folks there, or talk with the organizers before hand.

[357Mag]

AREA -

Howdy !

Go w/ the .357Mag.

Back when IPSC was first new, clubs sprang-up all over. The one in my area thought it was all 1911... or nothin'.

I was shooting .357Mag, which the club rated " minor " until I had completed my probationary 3- contest attendance.
Once I got them to haul out their swingin' pendulum " power meter ", they soon found that my .357Mag loads were WELL into major power territory; while many 1911 shooting regulars were revealed to be sand-bagging w/ loads that were in-fact "minor" category in power.

RX -
.357Mag Lyman SWC of 158 - 172gr 14.5gr WW296 ( H110 same stuff ) SP Mag primer

If you are allowed use of a customized gun, might I suggest going w/ a heavy barrel or other means that locates extra wt
forward on the gun ? My custom S & W M-520 has a 4" straight heavy barrel, and fixed sights. This gives me the balance of a 5" M-27... with the carry and draw convenience that the 4" barrel brings.

The .357Mag load quoted above worked fine in my 6" M-28, 5" M-27; and 2ea custom "N"-frame .357Mag w/ 4" barrels.
Again, controllability ( IMHO ) when shooting a 4" ( N-frame ) is a non-issue. Enjoy the power. I also thought the load was
fine, when shot from a 4" M-19, and 6" Python.


With regards,
357Mag

[MtGun44]

I think current major in IPSC is 165,000. So 158 gr will need to go
at least 1044 avg. I'd plan on 1150 for safety.

Since you have lots of H110, the lightest that Hodgdon has in their online
data for 158 Jbullet is 14.0 gr of W296 which is identical to H110, which
they list at 1328. I think they use an 8" bbl so in a 4" will probably be just
about what you need.

I support what Al said, use .357 brass and low end .357 loads.

Also, if you do it right a Lyman 358477 or RCBS 38-150 SWC, both
without GCs will work just fine and be cheaper and easier than the
358156.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

One point I overlooked, and a couple posters touched on. H-110/WW-296 does NOT take kindly to being down-loaded......i.e., used in charges where less than 90% of the powder space within a cartridge is powder-filled. Very uneven and unsatisfactory ballistics can result via use of these two powders in lower-density applications. A corollary advantage through its use is its gentler pressure rise than most "magnum" revolver fuels, which translates to easier extraction and higher velocities.

I enjoy mid-level loadings in my Magnum revolvers very much. These are generally standard-weight-for-caliber plain-base castings running 1100-1200 FPS from 4"-6" barrels. These loads are accurate, inexpensive to assemble, and give off "all-day recoil" levels. Herco has become my "go-to" fuel for much of this assignment. I understand about your wish to use the powder you have on hand--to "dance with who brung ya". Nothing wrong with that--just understand that to derive the best work from that fuel, you'll need to run the loads at near-max levels for best powder behavior. That is NOT a bad thing--use the sport as a training ground for real-world handgun venues, and reap the benefits of sustained practice with actual full-tilt carry loads.

[KYCaster]

OK.....your quote is from the list of approved guns for.....PRODUCTION DIVISION.

All competitors in production division are scored as minor PF regardless of the power of the ammo, so there is no reason to shoot major PF ammo in production division. Minor PF is 125+ so your 165 gr. boolit needs to make 758 fps to qualify.

USPSA doesn't allow major PF in 38Spl cases. If you want to shoot major in your .357, it has to be in .357 cases.

If you want to compete with your revolver, you may find that REVOLVER DIVISION would be a better fit.

Your SA 1911 can be used in OPEN, LIMITED, LIMITED 10 or SINGLE STACK divisions, so there are options available if that's the gun you want to compete with.

Check the appendixes in the USPSA rule book for restrictions to guns and gear for the various divisions.

The best place to find answers to your questions about the various gun games is the Brian Enos forums.

Good luck....and have fun.
Jerry

[Area Man]

Wow. Thanks everyone for you input. My experience with H110 has always been best accuracy towards the upper end of the loading spectrum. I didn't realize safety issues may occur towards the lowest ends of the spectrum. Good to know.

KYCaster and Fluxed - thanks a ton for the clarification. Glad to know my 1911 is good to go. I may shoot revolver anyway since I run a good chance of being the only one thereby winning the classigification!

[pipehand]

Area Man- the minor power thing in IPSC only matters if you shoot outside the "A" zone of the target. :)

If shooting IDPA, the revolver has to have a 4" or less barrel. If you're shooting speedloaders, minimum power factor is OK. If you shoot "Enhanced" revolver (Moon clipped) you have to shoot majorPF. That change in the rules made the 40 S&W Model 646 loose some of its attractiveness.

I shoot a monthly USPSA "style" match locally in Revolver class and am usually the only one. Last match, one of the guys showed up with his 625, so there were two of us shooting near identical setups. Although I had one abysmal stage, three good ones got me to place 8th out of 21 shooters, a few places ahead of the other wheelgunner.

I need to get some speedloaders and other gear ready to use my 686 with .38's in competition. I usually use warm 38 loads in 357 brass because I don't like to clean out the "crud ring" in the cylinder, but the shorter brass has an advantage in faster ejection if you're competing.

Whatever it is you shoot, you're going to have a great time. Help paste targets, and reset steel. Just a warning- it'll get you hooked.

[docmagnum357]

I used to load a 38 special load that WAS NOT + p , but would make major. There is data out there for 200 grain bullets in 38 special. It has been a long time ago, but I remember 2400, and I remember 900 fps odd.It seems the folks who shoot bowling pins developed this type of heavy bullet load . I wish I could remember more about it....I know I was amazed at two things, . One, it was really accurate, and two, it really didn't have a sharp recoil, more of a big push.

[9.3X62AL]

I use a 200 grain-class boolit in both 38 Special and 357 Magnum--Lyman #358430 @ 195 grains in 92/6/2 alloy. These are wonderfully accurate boolits, from 700 FPS to 1200 FPS+. I would be reluctant to run these much past 800-825 FPS in my 38 Specials......especially with three 357 Magnums on hand that can run them to near 1300 FPS without a problem. (None are J- or K-frame S&Ws, though).

I haven't done a whole lot of practical or combat-styled handgun competition, but enjoy it immensely when I have. The power factoring and the gymnastics some shooters go through to "make major" have really fascinated me, and not in a good way. I could NEVER understand the rationale for building up 38 Super race guns to barely make major, all the while straining the safety margins of 1911A1 or other platforms......when the plain old 45 ACP made major without much real effort. Grenades are for THROWING, not for shooting. I never "built" or modified any sidearm for competing--I used the guns and webgear I used at work, and loads that "duped" my carry ammo. If one can train, stay sharp, and have fun all at the same time, I say go for it--and I did.

[MtGun44]

Al,

I did the .38 Super route for many years in IPSC, and the extra round count plus more effective compensator made
it worthwhile for competition. My load was a forever load - brass would last forever, just not WW brass - but any other
brand of .38 Super that I tried. That gun has over 70K rounds thru it and still is tight, accurate and dead reliable -
Colt with Wilson LE Comp on it. Never broke a part, had a few cases blow when I accidentally missed a WW brass
in my recovered brass after a stage, but never with my load and any other brass. 147 gr LSWC at about 1250 fps
and brass lasts until the headstamp is gone. I put a 2 lb trigger job on that gun when I got it back and is still 2 lbs
today, the whole gun is just super slicked up from honest use.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

The proof is in the performance, I suppose. Your brass' survival and longevity says volumes. The round count and comp efficiency questions would have been non-starters for me--I was running my work wares, and 38 Super wasn't approved--and comped barrels/pistols still aren't kosher for us. The 38 Super can be a decent counter-hairball round if given good bullets, and a chamber that allows headspace on the case mouth might enhance accuracy. I wonder how it will stand up to the 357 SIG's presence in the market. The 357 SIG isn't setting the world on fire like the 40 S&W did, but it's no slouch as a service caliber, and makes Major easily right out of the box.

[MtGun44]

This was for the game of IPSC, so comp effectivness and round count (ten shots in mag) were important to the game,
--although I can get a chronoed 1400 fps with Hornady 124 XTPs in that same gun and
would not feel bad if I had to use it for serious social purposes. Frankly, that is .357 Mag territory and
the 125 gr HP .357 has a good reputation. 357 Sig is probably a more sensible way to get 357 Mag
ballistics in a bottom feeder, but 9x23 brass was far stouter and make the same ballistics a lot
more reasonable, too.


Bill

[Good Cheer]

Just out of curiosity, does the .41 fit in with it's power level? Or are production revolvers just not suitable?

[9.3X62AL]

Good Cheer, I think the 41 Magnum would be a VERY FINE service or competition caliber. The 210 grain lead "police load" gives 900 FPS+ from 4" barrels, so there's a 189 P/F right out the gate. A S&W Model 58 as a service sidearm would have pleased me (and a lot of other deputies) right to the ground. Those 210 grain SWCs at 900 FPS are an all-day load, and MONDO ACCURATE in every 41 Mag I've ever tried them in.

Mtn Gun, I get the rationale for comp'er efficiency and round count advantage. Glocks are one million units back-ordered for several good reasons, round-count being high on that list, I'm sure. :) We carry the Federal 357B/125 grain JHP in our 357 MagRevs now, and I will say this--they get an honest 1425 FPS from my 4" 686, and their perceived recoil is less than that given from the 158s @ 1235 we used to haul around, so recovery time between shots might be enhanced. I'm not fully "sold" on the FBI hype concerning this round, but for felon-repelling there likely isn't a "bad" bullet weight in 357 Magnum. I have (so far) resisted the Siren Song of the 357 SIG, though we have 3 pistols here that could be adapted to it with a barrel drop-in. The chambering hasn't been blessed for duty at my old shop, so the motivation to take on another caliber isn't sufficient presently. I'm such a 40 S&W and 45 ACP fan that I'm more likely to update with a SIG P-227 than take on another whole new caliber/barrel/brass/dies/mould(s). At some point maturity has to get its day in court.

[smkummer]

The older manuals you have do not have plus P data as this was first on the scene in the mid-70's. I am using 5.1 grains unique for about 900 FPS out of my 38 Colt mid-frame revolvers with the Lee -358158SWC TL bullet but I cant remember if the chono was with a 4 or 6 in. barrel. I am using 7.0 unique and the same bullet out of my .357 for a reduced load but still getting >1100 FPS (again, I can't remember if it was a 4 or 6 in. gun). When my Unique gets low, I will be switching to 231 as it sure meters more uniformly. I don't know if the place I shoot practical pistol would count 38 special as major as they don't chrono anyones ammunition.

[MtGun44]

In truth, the .38 Super doesn't get shot or carried much these days. It is and was a fine, highest
quality pistol, dead accurate, dead reliable, and smooth as glass after 70k+ rounds through it. But
I am not playing that particular slot in the game these days, but still love the gun and what it can
do, so it'll be for some nephew to decide eventually what to do with it. Fine weapon, actually.

I have a matching .45 ACP Wilson LE Comp that is also a fine example of a 1911 custom comp
single stack of the late 1980s vintage. It gets shot a lot more.

Bill

[357Mag]

Area -

Howdy !

Winchester's ( Olin ) older reloading pamphlet listed 14.0gr WW296 as minimum charge for 158SWC in .357Mag ( and SP Mag primer ).

The 14.5gr charge I have used, and highly recommend is thusly.... above " minimum " allowed charge.


With regards,
357Mag

[9.3X62AL]

Area -

Howdy !

Winchester's ( Olin ) older reloading pamphlet listed 14.0gr WW296 as minimum charge for 158SWC in .357Mag ( and SP Mag primer ).

The 14.5gr charge I have used, and highly recommend is thusly.... above " minimum " allowed charge.


With regards,
357Mag

That is a GREAT load using Lyman #358156 and CCI 550 primers. IIRC, 14.5 grains of WW-296 is the W-W book max loading in recent handout data for this boolit weight, but I don't have my material ready at hand to verify this. I've shot A BUNCH or loads using this same recipe, though--and it does fine work in a lot of my 357s.

[robertbank]

PM is going out to Al for info on your 200gr boolit loadings. To the OP one thing to remember .357 major loadings can get, well hurtful over the course of a match from my experience. The choice for revolver division up here by the few shooters who shoot Revolvers is the S&W 625 5" gun using moon clips. Felt recoil is more comfortable, and reloads, which there are many per stage, are faster for most using moon clips.

If you just want to shoot and really are not intent on competing in IPSC then the .357mag will certainly do using speedloaders. You will be shooting against guys using 625 guns with 5" barrels and moon clips.

IDPA has their SSR Division, a division that mandates the use of speedloaders and is shot at a PF of 105 now. IDPA tested 17 different factory 39spl rounds before settling in on 105PF. The old PF of 125 was dropped because only a few .38spl factory loadings made or exceeded 125. The Ruger GP100 and the S&W 686 are two top choices for the IDPA SSR Division.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

PMs have gone in both directions between RobertBank and I, and I'll be able to get my historic stuff on the 200 grainers in the "357 Lite" once I'm back home on Friday evening. One thing I will say about the 200 grain boolits in 38 S&W, 38 Special, and 357 Magnum--there is a noticeable momentum increase in all 3 calibers brought about by the heavier boolits that the 150-160 grain "usual suspects" just can't duplicate. In the Ruger BisHawk 357 with its 7.5" barrel, I can run #358156 @ 1550 FPS and the Lyman #358430 195 grainer well past 1300......that heavier bullet hits noticeably harder, and moves things better. Something not quite scientific but empirically observable takes place with these two boolit weights, comparatively speaking. That is the best description I can give of the discrepancy.

All of the various formulae that ballisticians use to quantify striking energy use one of the ballistics "variables" as a squared value to express what occurs when the bullet strikes and penetrates. I am a longtime fan of the Hatcher Scale, largely because the variable THAT formula uses to gain its value (frontal area) is the ONLY demonstrable variable that actually is "squared" in real life as its linear expansion continues. That said, there is still an observable increase in transmitted momentum (for lack of a better expression) when heavier bullets get the call.

I suppose the best possible conclusion here is I WANT IT ALL!! Frontal area--bullet weight--velocity. MORE OF EVERYTHING. I'm just a big pig that way.

[357Mag]

Correction, all -

My previous post above, included at least one error.

Minimum charge of WW296 listed by Winchester/OLin for 158grSCW in .357Mag was: 14.5gr WW296 w/ a SP Mag primer.

I apologize for the error.


With regards,
357Mag

[BCRider]

I may be out to lunch on this but isn't/wasn't PPC darn near a huge revolver show? Look at all the re-barreled .38 S&W's with those hulking big and heavy sight rail barrels that show up for sale branded as "PPC Special" or similar.

Of course PPC is one of the few handgun competitions that I haven't tried out so I would not be surprised if things have changed a lot compared to the stories I've heard from those who did shoot the event.

[robertbank]

BC Rider I shot a PPC match at Abbotsford using a double stack .45acp Para about 10 years ago. They used to have an active PPC section there. I am not sure if they still do. My gun was the only semi in attendance with the balance of the guns being .38spl.

I have no idea what the rules are really. I shot the match and for one reason or another never got to another one.

Take Care

Bob