45-70 all over the paper...

[blwngazkit]

I've been having some difficulty with my rifle (1885 High-Wall by C-Sharps) grouping 18-20" at 100 yards. I've established that it's not me as other shooters can't get it to group any better.

I'm using my reloads using hardcast 405gr lead @ .458 and between 30 & 38 grains of 4198. I don't have a chronograph so I don't have any info on velocities.

My current thoughts are the .458 lead is undersized; I can take a fired case and (after removing any leftover crimp) a bullet will slide right in without any force. Obviously I need to do a chamber cast or slug the bore...


Can a bullet that's undersized like this really result in groups of these sizes? I'm pretty worried as I've never encountered an issue like this.

I posted this over on AR15 and they directed me here... The consensus is I need to slug my bore and see what I'm working with for bore size.

My question now is I've got 400 or so bullets left that are sized at .458; I bought these before I really had a clue what I needed. Can these bullets with the lube grooves be paperpatched or otherwise bumped up in size to work with a larger bore?

[knifemaker]

I'll try to answer part of your questions. Offhand I would say there is a very good chance your bullets are undersize for your barrel. The majority of 45/70s I have used like a bullets of around .460 in dia. for best accuracy. Yes you should slug your bore and determine groove dia. and size your bullets 1-2 thousand over that barrel groove dia.

On my current 45/70 I size my cast bullets to .460 and use 43 gr. of IMR-4198 with a Ranchdog 350 gr. GC bullet for about 1800fps and 3 shot groups at 100 yards that measure 1 inch. With my rifle, those groups will open up at .459 and to my surprise, will also open up if I size to .461.

slugg your barrel and find a cast bullet maker that will sell you cast bullets sized to fit your bore if you do not cast yourself.

[MT Chambers]

If your bullets are indeed "undersized" then the hard cast will make it even worst, as they won't swage up to fit the barrel either.

[MtGun44]

Try softer and bigger.

Bill

[1bluehorse]

Yep, slug the bore. Try a bullet (cast) a thou or two over that size and see where you're at...have you shot any factory jacketed stuff for a comparison?? I would also start a little closer, say 50yds, for group. Your load of 4198 is quite a bit less than what I load with the same bullet (Lee 405gr...412 actual). and a bullet SHOULD slip easily into a fired case (before the case is resized), that's why we resize them..:bigsmyl2:

Get back to us on the bore size, and the results from some factory jacketed rounds. There's an answer for the issues you're having, just need to take it one step at a time..

[blwngazkit]

I'm going to slug the bore this evening when I get home.

IF I am undersized with the .458, what can I do with the bullets I already have?

[ku4hx]

I'm going to slug the bore this evening when I get home.

IF I am undersized with the .458, what can I do with the bullets I already have?

I had that problem years ago and I ended up melted and casting with a different mold. Gives whole new meaning to the phrase "Bite the bullet". I also stopped using the mold that habitually threw undersized boolits.

[runfiverun]

make other ones from them.

[joec]

Here are some egg shaped sinker sizes that will work for different calibers. In the case for a 45-70 use the #8 and flatten it out in a vise to make it bigger than the barrel. Start from the muzzle and drive it through the barrel to the breach using a wooden dowel or brass rod with a heavy hammer. Also be sure the sinkers are lead and not an alloy and lube them before doing it with some kind of grease or oil.

Lead sinker sizes for checking gun bores

Size 10
For use in .270, 7mm, and .30 Calibers

Size 9
For use in .338, .348, 38/.357, and 35 Calibers

Size 8
For use in .41, .44, .45, and .475 Calibers

The corresponding weights:
Size 10 - 1/8oz
Size 9 - 1/4oz
Size 8 - 3/8oz

[308Man]

I agree bigger sounds better. I shoot a 458 win mag and use a 459 over a 457 or 458. Works better.

[rintinglen]

You can bump up soft boolits a thousandth or two, provided you have a lubrisizer that can stand the strain. (Lyman 45 need not apply.) Simply install a sizer of the size you need, and adjust the depth setting on the internal ram so that your down ward stroke squashes the boolit enough to swell out.

TWO Things.
This is hard on the Press, don't make a habit of it.
Don't try it with commercially-cast, water-quenched or heat-treated boolits. They require more force than your press can stand.

[WHITETAIL]

#1 slug the bore.
#2 boolet needs to be 1-2 thou. over bore.
#3 If you don't have any boolets that size,
ask on here and someone will send you afew.:cbpour:

[MT Gianni]

I get the feeling that this is a buyer of cast rather than a caster. There are custom bullet makers that will sell you whatever hardness you need and diameter as well. I think with those pressures you should be much closer to bhn 8 pure lead than hardcast. It is the wrong time to give this advice, but buy a box of factory loads if you can find them and see how they group.

[Kansas Ed]

One thing I've done with some bullets which were about .003 under what I needed. I found a metal bushing which just happened to be .4095 inside diameter, it was just the right length to cover all of the driving bands and lube. (I needed bullets which were bigger than bore size .4085, and the bullets I got were advertised as .408, but which were actually .406). I sat the bushing on my arbor press in the garage, dropped in a bullet and a light bump press swaged the bullet to .4095 Then just popped them out with a pencil eraser. It does deform the nose slightly fatter, but they shoot well in my 40-82. It was a handy solution as we happened to have a bushing laying around which was the right ID. But it may not be the solution you are looking for.

Ed

[detox]

Check for leading in the barrel and remove. Use a soft lube like SPG and softer alloy (I use 20/1). You should see a lube star at end of muzzle after firing. I like the RCBS 500 grain mould (AS CAST) in my Browning 1885 BPCR. Maybe a fiberwad will help using smokeless...i do not know.

[blwngazkit]

OK, update time.

I slugged the bore and I'm coming up with either .4585 or .4590 depending on pressure and groove measured.

So it definitely sounds like I'm undersized.


Where can I go from here? Here's what I've done and what I have available:

Bought the rifle and shot some Remington Factory jacketed loads at 50yds, the grouping was mediocre but it was also my first time shooting the rifle.

I did some reading, not enough, and bought the .458 hardcast bullets I have now and began reloading. I'm loading the 405gr bullets seated to the crimp groove with a moderate crimp. I've tried between 30 & 38 grains of 4198 as I found the data in the Lyman manual and started about middle of the road powder-wise. I never encountered any signs of leading, but the groups are ALWAYS horrible; in the ~8" rang at 50 yards and much larger at 100 yards.

I have a solid reloading setup, but I don't currently have the equipment (or money since I have my 1st child due in 2 months) to start casting. I'd like to, but I simply can't yet. Until I can start casting my own, I'm stuck with buying bullets from somewhere, apparently I need softer lead vs the hardcast I was originally reading about.

Seeing as my bore seems to be coming in at .459, I should be looking for a bullet at .460 correct? What options / where should I go from here? I have many .458 3-lube groove bullets already in hand; I suppose I could just stick them on a shelf until I get some equipment to melt them down.

I'm not opposed, even mildly intrigued, to paper patching. Would this be beneficial to me or should I try something else?

I need some help with a direction here...

[runfiverun]

paper patching isn't gonna work for you either.
you need to size them to bore diameter then patch to groove or slightly over groove diameter.

you could try using a lighter load in the 1200 fps range and explore a filler of sorts such as cream of wheat.

i really hope you meant 3031 and not 4198 in your origional post.
i would try 21.5 grs of 4198 to start and just enough cream of wheat to seat the boolit on top of the cereal with some slight compression.
if you have 3031 i'd try 31 grs to start and the cereal filler.
i would make and shoot them within a short period of time and not let them sit around.

[knifemaker]

Runfiverun;
I do not understand your statement about his use of IMR-4198 powder in his late model Hi-Wall. That model of Hi-wall has sufficent strenght to safely support the use of 38gr. of that powder. Could you be confusing his late model Hi-wall with that of a early model, 1800's, Hi-wall that is not as strong as the modern reproduction models are? Ken Waters in his "Pet Loads" lists a max of 39 gr. of 4198 for a 405 gr. bullet in the older original Winchester case harden hi-walls. For a modern reproduction & Winchester blue steel he lists a max of 42 gr. with the same 405 gr. bullet.

[Dusty Bannister]

Given that he has shown this is a slightly undersized hard bullet, but not severely leading, anyone giving consideration to either the CFVentures soft gas check or an inverted conventional gas check under the base of the bullet, to get a good seal and have at least some hope of this hard alloy bullet filling the grooves of the barrel? Dusty

[MtGun44]

You will want .002 over groove diam, so you need .460, like many do.
Those hard commercial ones will melt nicely and mixed with about equal amount
of pure lead will be about right.

Bill

[blwngazkit]

Quite honestly, I had no idea that being .002" undersized would result in such horrible groupings!

I'm relatively new to reloading as I've only been at it for about a year. This is the only rifle round I reload, everything else is just plinking loads for my pistols.


I suppose I'll need to buy some .460" & .461" lead bullets and give them a try; that would give me between .001 & .002 over groove size. As they'll be softer I should make sure the velocity stays below what, 1300fps?

[blwngazkit]

Also, to clarify something about paper-patching; the bullet itself would need to be at or smaller than bore diameter?

[Larry Gibson]

OK, update time.

I slugged the bore and I'm coming up with either .4585 or .4590 depending on pressure and groove measured.

So it definitely sounds like I'm undersized.


Where can I go from here? ...............I need some help with a direction here...

You do not necessarily have bullets "undersized" enough to cause such inaccuracy. I've shot lots of similar commercial cast at .458 through my own .458 - .459 barreled 45-70s. My guess is you are just pushing that particular cast bullet too hard. Using 30 gr (your starting load) is probably pushing that bullet 1250 - 1300+ fps which may already be the top end for that particular bullet and working up to 38 gr is definately pushing that bullet too hard, especially if that cast bullet has a large beveled base and a hard wax lube.

I suggest you back off on the 4198 to 23 gr and add a 1 gr dacron filler and work up to 28 gr. You might also try the same with 4759 starting with 20 gr and work up to 23 gr. Or with 5744 starting at 23 gr and work up to 27 gr. All with the 1 gr dacron filler.

If that commercial cast bullet has a hard wax lube you might also tuble lube the bullets in LLA (per the instructions) which might also help in the accuracy department and probably reduce any leading.

Yes I know "fit is king" and all that but there is no reason that bullet should not shoot at least reasonably well and be useable if the rifle is capable as that bullet is not all that much "undersized".

Larry Gibson

[blwngazkit]

How apparent would any leading be?

I haven't seen any in the bore, and cleaning only takes about 5 patches or so but I may not really know what I'm looking for...

[Dusty Bannister]

Do you see a silver "star" on the muzzle? Normal lube star has no metal in it. That would probably remain after only 5 patch cleaning. Dusty

[blwngazkit]

No stars. Come to think of it, no stars of any kind...

[detox]

Commercial cast is your problem. Try softer alloy and softer lube. Use one of your as cast soft boollits to slug the barrel, but use a micrometer insted of dial indecator to measure.

[blwngazkit]

Since my barrel is .4585 - .4590 groove diameter, could I reasonably expect any increase in accuracy if I drop the load of 4198 down to the 27gr range like has been suggested? The bullets a 405gr FN beveled base cast (commercial cast) to 15bn.


I'm willing to experiment with both bullet size and powder charge but I don't have the equipment to cast my own so I'll need to be ordering items.

[35 Whelen]

What about increasing the powder charge in an attempt to "bump" the bullet up the groove diameter? If I'm not mistaken, Veral Smith and Glen Fryxel both mention in their writings that a bullet will begin to obturate when chamber pressure reaches a certain point relative to to bullet hardness. Isn't the formula: BHN x 1433 = Chamber pressure needed? Or something along those lines? If the BHN of the bullet were not too high, maybe mid to low teens, obturation could be expected without excess chamber pressures, correct?

Case in point: I recently picked up a Flat Top in .44 Special The barrel groove diameter is .429", but the cylinder mouths are .4315". The only sizer I have for my Star bullet sizer is a .430" which leaves my bullets .0015" undersized. My bullets, sized thusly (.430")shot better, generally speaking, as chamber pressures increased. My most accurate 100 yd. load was shot with a max load running a 260 gr SWC a little over 1200 fps.

Thoughts?

[runfiverun]

knife maker yeah I was looking at low pressure rounds.

he is trying to get a slightly small and hard boolit to grab shallow rifling pushing it hard is gonna make it worse.
bumping up a 2/6 boolit is gonna take some oomph but if it has nothing to push against you are going to strip the boolit again causing instability.
blocking the gas and protecting the base is going to help.


35 you have a completely different situation, yours will work just fine.
you only need the boolit to help center the cylinder with the barrel and get things moving enough to engage the rifling.
you have enough diameter to do that.

[blwngazkit]

Just running the numbers.

15BHN x 1433 = 21,495

According to my reloading manual, 36.5gr of 4198 is 18,300cup and the max of 40.5gr is 27,500cup behind a 405gr lead bullet. I assume those numbers would decrease if the bullet isn't actually sealing the bore correctly. However I've tried 28gr of 4198 and had ZERO increase in accuracy which would indicate I'm either not hitting the needed pressure, or I'm exceeding the velocity capability of the bullet before it's obturated.

[detox]

What about increasing the powder charge in an attempt to "bump" the bullet up the groove diameter?
Thoughts?

Yea. Lyman #2 has a 15 BH about equal to your commercial cast alloy. Lyman reloading manual states starting load of 40.0 grains and max of 44.5 of imr 4198 using their 405 grain boollit. Shows 40.0 grains imr4198 (26,800 cup 1684 velocity) with this boollit as most accurate load in Ruger #1 and #3... Your high wall has same strength.

[detox]

Be sure to inspect barrel for leading before testing any further. Commercial lead solvent and bore snake works good.

[blwngazkit]

Yea. Lyman #2 has a 15 BH about equal to your commercial cast alloy. Lyman reloading manual states starting load of 40.0 grains and max of 44.5 of imr 4198 using their 405 grain boollit. Shows 40.0 grains imr4198 (26,800 cup 1684 velocity) with this boollit as most accurate load in Ruger #1 and #3... Your high wall has same strength.

I'm more than a little apprehensive to load to #1 pressures since I haven't been able to confirm what C-Sharps High Walls are rated for. I know the Uberti/Pedersoli replicas are tested to the SAAMI max of ~28,000 so I've been treating that as my maximum pressure.

I CAN try a hotter charge this weekend, but I'm really not expecting much given the results I've already been seeing.

[MtGun44]

Try about 12-14 gr of Unique and you might get that hard boolit whacked in the butt
hard enough to make it fit.

Bill

[blwngazkit]

I'd emailed C-Sharps and they responded that the nominal groove diameter for their barrels is .458...

I'm going to borrow a micrometer this evening and re-slug the bore. I want to make sure I measured things correctly.

IF, big IF, but if the groove diameter is actually .458 and the bullets I'm using are .458 would that combined with hardcast be reason enough for the groups at 100yds to exceed 20"?!?

[fouronesix]

I'd bet your groove diameter is .458.

Do yourself a favor to get some success and the rifle shooting before moving on to more "intense" specialized things like paper patching. Get ahold of some RCBS 45-405-FNGC bullets cast with an alloy of about BHN 10-12 and sized to .458 or 9. Our own bullshop here on the forum should be able to come up with some of those. Use a Lyman M die to expand the neck just enough to allow easy starting of bullet. Use about 23 gr of 5744 with some low density dacron filler. Seat bullet out so the front drive band just touches the leade/land entry. Don't crimp and set your sizing die so all it does is remove the slight flare on the case mouth. Shoot 5 at a bull at 50 yds from a good rest and report back.

[blwngazkit]

I may have muddled the thread a little bit...

My goal here is to 1st get this thing shooting and then start experimenting...

I'll see if I can come up with some 5744 locally, not sure about the likely hood of that given the run on powder these days. If I can't, I may have to try a different powder.

[MtGun44]

My experience with hard commercial cast .458 diam 405s with Crayola lube is that they make
a good pot sweetener for casting, and NOTHING else.

Bill

[fouronesix]

I may have muddled the thread a little bit...

My goal here is to 1st get this thing shooting and then start experimenting...

I'll see if I can come up with some 5744 locally, not sure about the likely hood of that given the run on powder these days. If I can't, I may have to try a different powder.

That could be an issue. The other powder that is very close to 5744 is 4759. Other powders that will work almost as well would be Rel 7, 4198 or 3031. The idea is to keep the pressures down and the velocities down around 1150-1250 to start with. Of course light charges of pistol powders like Unique can give similar ballistics, but by their very nature, demand careful attention to loading detail and potential pressures with these faster pistol powders.

[blwngazkit]

Well I have ~3/4 of a lbs of 4198 so maybe I can still find a usefulness for it...

Per some other's suggestions, I'm going to see what the difference is between my current seating depth at the crimp groove vs seating to just touching the rifling; it may be significant.

I'm also going to re-examine my dies and make sure nothing is amiss there, particularly with the FCD I was using to crimp the case. I'm aware they can resize the case/bullet to a smaller size than desired. I thought I had checked that...

[fouronesix]

Worth a go. Just try to come up with a load with the 4198 that will yield the lower pressures/velocities. You may have to use some dacron filler as the load density decreases with the reduced charges of some of the denser powders.

As to the FCD. You can certainly use it but make sure the seater die is backed out so it doesn't try to roll crimp when seating the bullet then adjust the FCD to take only the flare out of the case mouth- you really don't need any kind of restrictive crimp on the bullet for these type loads in single shots. Instead of using any kind of crimp die or crimping shoulder in the seater die you can also run the loaded round back up into the sizer die lightly to take the flare out by feel. In effect a very light, simple, taper crimp.

[blwngazkit]

Per one member's suggestion, I measured how far out I could seat one of my current bullets.

Maximum Cartridge length using my bullet = 2.723"

My current loads are 2.527"


Would a difference like that be cause for concern?

[DLCTEX]

That's almost 1/4 in. jump. Wow! At that I would want the boolit to fit the throat snugly. The Lee FC die for rifle does not size down the boolit as the pistol one can. It only contacts the mouth of the case and the amount of contact is adjustable. PM me and I'll send a few 460-420 RD boolits for you to try. They are lubed with Carnuba Red and gaschecked.

[35 Whelen]

Per one member's suggestion, I measured how far out I could seat one of my current bullets.

Maximum Cartridge length using my bullet = 2.723"

My current loads are 2.527"


Would a difference like that be cause for concern?

Jiminy Christmas!! Seat your bullet to the rifling and start over!!

[runfiverun]

definatly get them out there.
and don't worry about a roll crimp, you have enough neck tension.

[blwngazkit]

Well I don't think I can push them out THAT far since I'd be exposing 2 of the lube grooves... I can bump the bullet out about a third of that distance I think.

[Larry Gibson]

Have you tried what I suggested?

I suggest you back off on the 4198 to 23 gr and add a 1 gr dacron filler and work up to 28 gr. You might also try the same with 4759 starting with 20 gr and work up to 23 gr. Or with 5744 starting at 23 gr and work up to 27 gr. All with the 1 gr dacron filler.

If that commercial cast bullet has a hard wax lube you might also tuble lube the bullets in LLA (per the instructions) which might also help in the accuracy department and probably reduce any leading.

Larry Gibson

[bdoyle]

I have an old IAB sharps with what I think they called a 'ball seat' throat. I have to expose at least 2 lube grooves to touch the rifling. You have to be careful about dirt and such but it makes a large difference how the rifle shoots.
Brian

[blwngazkit]

Have you tried what I suggested?

I suggest you back off on the 4198 to 23 gr and add a 1 gr dacron filler and work up to 28 gr. You might also try the same with 4759 starting with 20 gr and work up to 23 gr. Or with 5744 starting at 23 gr and work up to 27 gr. All with the 1 gr dacron filler.

If that commercial cast bullet has a hard wax lube you might also tuble lube the bullets in LLA (per the instructions) which might also help in the accuracy department and probably reduce any leading.

Larry Gibson


I won't get a chance to shoot again until this weekend, so I'll be trying a few different things and posting results of each different test.

[blwngazkit]

I have an old IAB sharps with what I think they called a 'ball seat' throat. I have to expose at least 2 lube grooves to touch the rifling. You have to be careful about dirt and such but it makes a large difference how the rifle shoots.
Brian

That sounds like what I'm dealing with using the 405gr bullets. 2 lube grooves would be exposed to touch the rifling.

[Nrut]

You should study up on the use of Dacron before using it, or you could ring your chamber..
There is a filler Sticky somewhere on this site..

As far as exposing lube grooves I do that all the time even for hunting loads..
You have to get over that if you are going to shot cast unless you order a custom mold that fits your rifles particular chamber/throat..
Sometimes a production mold will keep the lube grooves in the case depending on the rifle..

[MtGun44]

2 exposed grooves is not a problem.

Try 10-14 gr of Unique.

Bill

[blwngazkit]

I should probably do a chamber cast...

I'm fairly surprised, maybe I just wasn't aware, but I didn't expect THAT much jump for the bullet!

[fouronesix]

You should study up on the use of Dacron before using it, or you could ring your chamber..
There is a filler Sticky somewhere on this site..

As far as exposing lube grooves I do that all the time even for hunting loads..
You have to get over that if you are going to shot cast unless you order a custom mold that fits your rifles particular chamber/throat..
Sometimes a production mold will keep the lube grooves in the case depending on the rifle..

...or blow up a gun with otherwise normal type powders in low load densities by not using a filler. Or by overcharging/double charging pistol powders. Check the archives.

[blwngazkit]

...or blow up a gun with otherwise normal type powders in low load densities by not using a filler. Or by overcharging/double charging pistol powders. Check the archives.

I've heard of the flash-over possibility with low density loads.

I realize that if I'm extending the bullet out further from the case, I'll need to pay closer attention to the load densities and will probably need some filler...

I'm going to look for that Sticky on fillers now.

[1Shirt]

My #1 Ruger will shoot .458 w/0 leading, but not overly accurate. At .460 w/most all boolits, over 22 to 24 gr. of 2400 w/Dac fill, it will clover leaf at 50, and stay about 1 1/2-2" at 100 w/ my old eyes.
1Shirt!

[runfiverun]

1 shirts load is a super common one, I and a few others I know of use it.
I wouldn't hesitate to expose lube grooves, especially ones full of plastic wax lube.

[blwngazkit]

Not to throw any confusion:veryconfu into this, but I picked up a micrometer today and re-slugged the bore.

I'm measuring 0.4588" on the grooves...

My current plan for this weekend when I get a chance to shoot again is test both Larry Gibson's suggestion if I can learn what I need about fillers and also test a suggestion by Dusty Bannister. We've been discussing this via PM and I'm going to try a few loads with the bullet seated out to the rifling. He pretty much nailed it via PM that he thought the bullet was seated way too low for my particular rifle, 0.196" in this case!

[MtGun44]

No filler needed with Unique.

Why make this so hard to do? If you are having fun playing, then please
continue, it is a great hobby. Experimentation can be a source of fun
all by itself.

If you just want to shoot these boolits, give 10-14 gr of Unique a try.
Odds are very high you will have a nice load and shoot accurately if
you seat long.

Bill

[blwngazkit]

No filler needed with Unique.

Why make this so hard to do? If you are having fun playing, then please
continue, it is a great hobby. Experimentation can be a source of fun
all by itself.

If you just want to shoot these boolits, give 10-14 gr of Unique a try.
Odds are very high you will have a nice load and shoot accurately if
you seat long.

Bill

I'm not familiar with Unique, not do I have any. I can probably get some from my brother who uses it...

Why do you suggest Unique, and why wouldn't I need the filler? Since I'm not familiar with unique, wouldn't unique result in less powder volume than H4198?

[NVScouter]

Bill what pressure rating is that Unique load? I have about 4lbs still and a new 45-70.

[John Boy]

This thread needs to die a fast death - Four pages and 62 posts of a step by step how to load a 45-70 with smokeless no less. OK,
blwngazkit - take some advice from this that I prepared for a fella that never reloaded a 50-70. Sorry it is not for smokeless powder reloads but the steps are the same and should get you going how to reload

50-70 Government
Loading Data on Goex Powders website … http://www.goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/Cartridge-Rifle.pdf
450gr Bullet - 70gr Fg powder – 1260 fps
500gr Bullet – 25gr 4759 … emulates a 70gr BP charge
1.75” – Case Length
2.26” – Cartridge Overall Length (COL) … also the loaded round length can be extended so the ogive (nose) of the bullet is engraved in the leade of the chamber.
Reloading Steps
Case Preparation
• Anneal the mouth of the cases to the seating depth of the bullet – 650/680 degrees ( bluish/green color using a propane torch) Dunk the case immediately in a bucket of ice water
• Full length size the cases … Not a absolute step to be performed – use a case lube
• Chamfer the mouth of the case with a 22 ½ degree chamfering reamer … to remove any burrs
• Square the primer pockets with a pocket reamer … provides for proper seating of the primer
• Deburr the flash hole with a flash hole reamer … removes flash hole burrs for better primer ignition to the powder charge
• Size the mouth of the case using an M Die or Expander Plug for 0.001 to 0.002 neck tension so there is a very slight bell on the mouth to all the base of the bullet to be seated ½ way into the case
NOTE: Case length trimming (not absolutely necessary unless cases exceed the SAMMI case length a lot. VERY IMPORTANT: Do not trim any cases until AFTER they have been fireformed

Determining Extended COL of Loaded Round
• Drop the bullet into the chamber and tap the base with the eraser of a pencil
• Using a caliper, measure from the base of the seated bullet to the rim of the chamber (A)
• Measure the length of the bullet (B)
• Add A + B = C
• Measure seated depth of the bullet in the case (D)
• C – D = Extended COL of the round

Measuring Powder Charge Height
• Measure the distance from the top of the settled powder to the mouth of the case
• Determine how much you want to compress the powder column
• Adjust your compression die to the required length to achieve the amount of compression you want.
o NOTE: Adjusting the compression die requires … Fiddling – do it in small steps

Charging the Cases
• Primers: Favored primers are: CCI BR2 and Federal GM210M (LR Match)
• Insert an Over the Primer Wad – 0.10 to 0.20 construction paper … punched out using a 45-70 wad punch
• Charge the case using a drop tube with the desired number of grains. The powder charge can also charged directly from the charger and then settled using a vibrator
• Compress the powder to the desired depth using a compression plug … http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4086.html
• Insert wad using a dowel rod. Types of wads that can be used:
o O.030 or 0.060 LDPE – 0.030 to 0.060 fiber wad – hard felt wad (lubed or not lubed) – jute wad under the LDPE or fiber wad – newspaper – wax paper … separately or in any of the wad combinations
• Insert lubed bullet (450 or 500gr) into the case using:
o Seating die
o Finger seated which is the preferred method
• Apply a very light crimp on the case to ONLY to remove the bell on the case

TEST THE LOADED ROUND IN THE CHAMBER SO THAT IT ONLY TAKES THUMB PRESSURE TO SEAT THE ROUND
DONE

[35 Whelen]

This thread needs to die a fast death - Four pages and 62 posts of a step by step how to load a 45-70 with smokeless no less. OK,
blwngazkit - take some advice from this that I prepared for a fella that never reloaded a 50-70. Sorry it is not for smokeless powder reloads but the steps are the same and should get you going how to reload

50-70 Government
Loading Data on Goex Powders website … http://www.goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/Cartridge-Rifle.pdf
450gr Bullet - 70gr Fg powder – 1260 fps
500gr Bullet – 25gr 4759 … emulates a 70gr BP charge
1.75” – Case Length
2.26” – Cartridge Overall Length (COL) … also the loaded round length can be extended so the ogive (nose) of the bullet is engraved in the leade of the chamber.
Reloading Steps
Case Preparation
• Anneal the mouth of the cases to the seating depth of the bullet – 650/680 degrees ( bluish/green color using a propane torch) Dunk the case immediately in a bucket of ice water
• Full length size the cases … Not a absolute step to be performed – use a case lube
• Chamfer the mouth of the case with a 22 ½ degree chamfering reamer … to remove any burrs
• Square the primer pockets with a pocket reamer … provides for proper seating of the primer
• Deburr the flash hole with a flash hole reamer … removes flash hole burrs for better primer ignition to the powder charge
• Size the mouth of the case using an M Die or Expander Plug for 0.001 to 0.002 neck tension so there is a very slight bell on the mouth to all the base of the bullet to be seated ½ way into the case
NOTE: Case length trimming (not absolutely necessary unless cases exceed the SAMMI case length a lot. VERY IMPORTANT: Do not trim any cases until AFTER they have been fireformed

Determining Extended COL of Loaded Round
• Drop the bullet into the chamber and tap the base with the eraser of a pencil
• Using a caliper, measure from the base of the seated bullet to the rim of the chamber (A)
• Measure the length of the bullet (B)
• Add A + B = C
• Measure seated depth of the bullet in the case (D)
• C – D = Extended COL of the round

Measuring Powder Charge Height
• Measure the distance from the top of the settled powder to the mouth of the case
• Determine how much you want to compress the powder column
• Adjust your compression die to the required length to achieve the amount of compression you want.
o NOTE: Adjusting the compression die requires … Fiddling – do it in small steps

Charging the Cases
• Primers: Favored primers are: CCI BR2 and Federal GM210M (LR Match)
• Insert an Over the Primer Wad – 0.10 to 0.20 construction paper … punched out using a 45-70 wad punch
• Charge the case using a drop tube with the desired number of grains. The powder charge can also charged directly from the charger and then settled using a vibrator
• Compress the powder to the desired depth using a compression plug … http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4086.html
• Insert wad using a dowel rod. Types of wads that can be used:
o O.030 or 0.060 LDPE – 0.030 to 0.060 fiber wad – hard felt wad (lubed or not lubed) – jute wad under the LDPE or fiber wad – newspaper – wax paper … separately or in any of the wad combinations
• Insert lubed bullet (450 or 500gr) into the case using:
o Seating die
o Finger seated which is the preferred method
• Apply a very light crimp on the case to ONLY to remove the bell on the case

TEST THE LOADED ROUND IN THE CHAMBER SO THAT IT ONLY TAKES THUMB PRESSURE TO SEAT THE ROUND
DONE

:veryconfu Information overload/wet blanket. IF that doesn't kill the thread, nothing will!

[blwngazkit]

Do you all not like threads to stay updated?

I'm used to AR15 where I usually get pestered for updates...

[35 Whelen]

Do you all not like threads to stay updated?

I'm used to AR15 where I usually get pestered for updates...

No please, keep it going. We all learn from others experiences, except of course, those who already know everything!;)

[John Boy]

blwngazkit, believe the next update should be ... load the 45-70 round the way the round should be loaded - document in detail how you did the reload - go to the range and shoot a 100 & 200yd target - post the targets to show the groups and then we can continue to give you additional advice, if needed. Pictures tell the story
I've been shooting close to 1000 rounds of 45-70's at 200yds for settings for different reloads in four 45-70 rifles and then 500m and 1000yds annually for close to 10 years. Have never incurred the issues that you are having and presently have worked up reloads from 23 different 45-70 molds.

You might also buy the Lyman 49th Edition of their Reloading Manual because learning on a thread, post by post, doesn't cut it for OJT. There is a chapter in the manual how to reload cast bullets ...
http://www.amazon.com/Lyman-49Th-Edition-Reloading-Handbook/dp/B001MYEU0E/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1366252283&sr=1-1&keywords=lyman+reloading+book


except of course, those who already know everything!
Whelen, if your reference is directed to me - Yes, I've had plenty of practice reloading cast bullets and have the procedure down pretty pat. If the reload doesn't fly accurately, the issue is usually the bullet at the distance being shot - not how it was reloaded

[blwngazkit]

Just a small update...

It appears I also have a leading issue...

Using Hoppe's #9 the bore comes out clean, but I thought I'd try some Barnes CR-10 since it's stronger... The patches kept coming out black so I borrowed my friends bore-scope and I found about 6" of heavy leading 3" back from the crown...

I'm going to try to find a copper chore-boy today and scrub it out. I spent about an hour trying to get rid of it last night with tight patches and a stiff brush but I can't quite get it all.


I think I've narrowed down my issues:

Gun is wildly inaccurate due to leading.
Barrel is leading due to one or more of the following:
- Groove diameter = .459 Bullet = .458 hardcast so slightly undersized.
- Never have seen a lube star at the crown so the lube on the bullet may be insufficient.


Looks like I need to make some changes and/or get a different bullet...

[MtGun44]

Those Unique loads are in the 1000-1200 fps range, from memory. NOT hot loads,
very mild, fun shooting. Cheap, fun and usually accurate, not position sensitive,
never tried a filler, not needed for a good load. Give it a try. IIRC up to 15 gr is
OK, but verify that one. 10-12 is super mild, no sweat.

Of course, you always have the possibility of double charge, so I strongly recommend you add
powder, then put boolit on top and seat NOW, not in a loading block.

Please recognize that those commercial hard cast .458 boolits with Crayola lube are
pretty much the very bottom of the barrel as to "good boolits", but if you succeed
with them, my bet is over a medium charge of Unique.

Bill

[blwngazkit]

Ok, so the results are in.

I tried (3) different loads, 3 rounds per load.

Load A: 27gr H4198 with my bullets seated to just shy of the rifling.
Load B: 27gr H4198 bullet seated to just shy of the rifling with a 0.002" beeswax wad under the bullet.
Load C: 27gr H4198 bullet seated to crimp groove as before.

I did NOT crimp any of these loads beyond removing any bell in the mouth.

I started with a fresh bore that I had removed the previously found lead fouling. and I've posted the target below.

I will add, that all three of these loads result in what I THINK is an acceptable lube star developing, but I'm not very experienced with that and it could be carbon... I feels somewhat greasy and is sooty black when wiped off; it does wipe easily, no scrubbing.

68165

[35 Whelen]

I thin you have it figured out! Congrats!

35W

[Nose Dive]

Interesting thread, indeed. I was beginning to suggest 'sight equipment' check outs. Things loose or misplaced. (*Mechanical problmes)But,,, groupings seem to discount all that.

And Yes. Keep in mind, UNIQUE is indeed a very Unique powder. Works in all types of things...pistols, rifles, cannon, shotgun. Has been doin et for years and years..

Nose Dive

Cheap, Fast, Good. Kindly pick two.

[detox]

Check for leading in the barrel and remove. Use a soft lube like SPG and softer alloy (I use 20/1). You should see a lube star at end of muzzle after firing. I like the RCBS 500 grain mould (AS CAST) in my Browning 1885 BPCR. Maybe a fiberwad will help using smokeless...i do not know.

That was an easy one.

[FredBuddy]

Great thread.

I have a 300 gr lead boolit that doesn't do as well as others. Going to try some things.

[blwngazkit]

Argh!

Well after a frustrating session of loading 25 rounds taking 3 hours....:evil: I've learned a few things... The Lee seating/crimp die CANNOT be adjusted to both seat & even remotely remove the case mouth flare when using .459 or larger bullets. The crimp ring on my die interferes and the bullet hit that before the seating stem makes contact resulting in semi-random seating depths.

After getting that mostly ironed out, I went to the range and at 100 yards I'm getting +/- 2-3" groups which I'll accept for now considering I'm not confident with the consistency of the loads. I'm going to order some specific dies to fix this.



My MAIN issue; I'm STILL getting leading in the last ~5" of my barrel!! I tried some boolits some members here were kind enough to send me sized at both .460 & .4595... I had (what I thought was) an adequate lube star; so I'm kind of stumped on the leading issue.

Any pointers for figuring out leading issues?

[detox]

Your boollit may not be carrying enough lube. I like a boollit with lots of grease grooves and SPG lube. Have you tried the 5744 powder? BE SURE to remove all lead before retest.
https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/MainServlet?storeId=webconnect&catalogId=webconnect&langId=en_US&action=ProductDisplay&screenlabel=index&productId=3363&route=C12J059

[blwngazkit]

I'll post some pics of the bullets that were sent so others can chime in on lube content. I'm very much a novice when it comes to this.

All of these new test loads were done with 5744. I was very close to running out of H4198 and didn't want to work up a good load only to run out of powder so I went ahead and switched to 5744.

I don't have my notes with me, but I believe I loaded to the minimum loads as published by Accurate Arms for each bullet weight.