Cheap Machines

[Boomer Mikey]

OK guys,

What does a guy do when he wants to learn how to make his own rifle and has a bunch of projects on hand with a burning curiosity of how to make those things.

I went out and got a bunch of cheap machines and took Machine Technology classes at the college where I work before they closed down our Machine Technology Program.

Originally I was interested in making a 338-06 from a surplus Bruno Mauser 98 rifle I purchased at a Big 5 Sporting goods store. I thought I could buy a bunch of tools and recover some of the cost by making my own rifle. Well... 7 years later.

I purchased a Smithy 1324 granite 3-in-one machine Mill-Drill-Lathe. For gunsmith hobby work this is all I needed according to some of the books I got.

http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/data/9015/Smithy_Lathe_Gearhead_Mill.JPG

This is true, the Smithy is all you really need for hobby gunsmith work and I did built a 338-06 from the Mauser 98 action with the Smithy that easily shoots 1 MOA. So far I've built 4 complete rifles, re-barreled a Winchester 94, re-chambered 2 TC Contender barrels, made numerous pilots, nose punches, sizing dies, firing pins, etc. It's real handy to make a simple part or gadget you need instead of waiting two weeks or months for it.

http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/data/9015/Making_a_Thrust_Bearing_Housing.JPG

But... the milling head was so noisy in operation the neighbors and my wife had to leave home for me to use it and it's a major pain to switch setups between lathe operations and milling/drilling operations. So... I purchased a Harbor Freight round column gearhead milling machine on sale... (the burgundy colored machine) it was on sale! The Harbor Freight gearhead mill was well worth it's cost... this machine delivered the best value/performance ratio of all my machines.

http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/data/505/medium/Mike_s_R8_Mini_Gantry_Mill.JPG

With the Smithy lathe and Harbor Freight mill I designed and made this CNC MiniMill. This took over a year to make and I had a blast making it. I built 3 different spindles for the machine and the machine controller too. This project was a major disaster for my bank account because I wanted more "capability" to make bigger and better things.

http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/data/9015/Industrial_Hobbies_Mill.JPG

Out with the Harbor Freight mill and in with the Industrial Hobbies "Big Mill" with it's 30" table. This machine had awesome capability and a square column. I could now raise and lower the gear head without loosing zero! Besides, I could convert the old HF mill to a CNC mill... RIGHT!

http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/data/9017/Dovetail_Spindle_Mount0005_4_1_1.JPG

Well I got almost as much as I paid for the HF mill on e-buy and didn't even need to convert it to CNC.

http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/data/9017/medium/Dovetail_Spindle_Mount0006_5_1_1.JPG

Tormach was kind enough to sell me one of these PCNC1100 CNC Mills... OUCH!

http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/data/9021/On_The_Stand-1.jpg

For the price of a factory machine stand I purchased a Millermatic 175 mig welding outfit (e-buy again), the material, and with 1-1/2 months of my spare time (when my wife and neighbors weren't home or left home) designed and made the machine's stand.

The machines are the inexpensive part... the tooling i.e. R8 collets, 5C collets, round collets, hex collets, square collets, arbors, reamers, laps, counterbores, vises, clamps, end mills, tool holders, collet chucks, drill chucks, rotary tables, boring bars, tool grinder, tool post grinder, bench grinder, turning tools, face mills, drills, taps, countersinks, etc, etc, cost much more than the machines! Not to mention the measuring tools...

Now I want more "capability" and better accuracy... Again!! Well... I can't afford it! Gunsmiths are less expensive.

Enjoy,

Boomer :Fire:

[Ricochet]

Wow! :-D

[Single Shot]

We usually say the people that cast their own boolits make their own ammunition, compared to people that buy their bullets and just assemble ammunition.


You have raised the bar.

[Bret4207]

You CAN afford it! That boat is taking up WAY TOO MUCH SPACE!!!!

[nelsonted1]

Alternatively you could have bought an old Savage and a 338-06 barrel from Midway on sale!

[walltube]

Are you ready to accept orders for Group Buy moulds? Don't say you can't, we done seen the CNC mill. :-)

[Boomer Mikey]

Seven years ago Midway didn't sell barrels for the Savage rifles.

I've thought about making molds but I don't have any skills at making cherrys. Not that I wouldn't like to learn those skills.

From a standpoint of making money I don't think you can make 25 molds and turn a profit. If it's a sideline between jobs it might help pay the bills. The only way CNC turns a profit on a $50 item is to turn out hundreds of them in a single run. I think CNC operations for making mold block blanks would be practical though. I also think that making molds would be a good retirement job as the pressures of making a living wage aren't as great.

Boomer :Fire:

[armoredman]

Wow. I feel so...under-equipped...wow. And you call the machines the inexpensive part? Coudja define expensive?

[Boomer Mikey]

Well the expensive part is all the "tooling" as I mentioned. The major issue for me is that the cheap machines are limiting my ability to hold better tolerances. My Smithy lathe has about half a thousandth run-out in the spindle. The IH mill has serious problems with quill accuracy for precision boring or drilling operations limiting my ability to perform some operations; it's fine if I lock the quill for milling operations and use a fixture plate to overcome the variations in the table for precision work or mount work in a Kurt milling vise. There are workarounds for may issues but bottom line basic accuracy is the limiting factor.

These cheaper quality Chinese machines are a compromise and I knew that to start with but now I hunger for the precision built into a Bridgeport mill or a Bridgeport "clone" and a LeBlond, South Bend, or Logan lathe. It's a mute point as the expense of these machines and new tooling is prohibitive for me; not to mention the floorspace to put it in.

The machines I have are capable of making 90% of most anything I want to but limit my ability to extend my capability further.

Boomer :Fire:

[walltube]

"I also think that making molds would be a good retirement job as the pressures of making a living wage aren't as great."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

B'Mikey, I do hope you are not too far away from retirement. Some of us suffering 'Starved for Quality GB Moulds Delivered Within 12 Mos. After Honcho Sends $$$.$$ To LP' syndrome are getting a bit up in age. ;-)

Nice machinery there, Mikey. Drool quality stuff in these parts.

[floodgate]

armoredman:

"Wow. I feel so...under-equipped...wow. And you call the machines the inexpensive part? Coudja define expensive?"

YOU DON'T WANTA KNOW....

But a fully-tooled 12"/13" x 36"/40" import machine will eventually total $15 - 20K or more - just buy the tooling as you need it, and it won't hurt hardly at all...

boomer:

The plus side of working with a Smithy (I have an ancient AT-300, now listed as the 12-20 - 300 mm = 12" swing swing, 20" centers - one of the first few imported into the US) is that you will learn all the "workarounds", and those will pay off when you graduate to a better machine. The cruder the lathe you start with, the better machinist you will be in the end. But, in buying tooling, aways keep in mind that better machine you will eventually use it on. I learned on a fine old Logan in the school shop, so there was a lot of initial frustration with the Smithy, but I'm making it work for me, and the combo machine suits my limited workspace.

I also feel comfortable working wood on it, where it is quite adequate; while it is generally not advised to work wood on a good lathe - the sawdust eats lube and can cause rusting if you don't clean up thoroughly - you can't hardly hurt a Smithy that way (though I did wear out the original motor and switch after ten years of high-speed sanding and polishing, running alternately in forward and reverse).

I believe these were originally designed for home-shop subcontract "outsourcing" in Mainland China, and the basic machine is "hell for stout", if not a precision tool.

floodgate

[Boomer Mikey]

I agree with you floodgate,

The Smithy was never designed to be a precision machine and like I said, it will do 90% of the things I want to do but if I had it to do again... I would have purchased a lathe and a vertical mill instead. For the 3.5K I have invested in the Smithy I could have a much better lathe as I don't use the Smithy's millhead at all since I purchased a benchtop mill.

I also experienced my share of frustration with the machine and learned to work within its capabilities.

I have the option of using some really fine equipment in the college machine shop. The "American Iron" is a joy to use; we have a monster 25hp Colchester lathe that's virtually new; it doesn't even grunt at hogging 1/2" depth of cuts in quality steel. My favorite lathes in the shop are the Leblond 5hp lathes (we have 5); if they put them up for auction I'm going to get one even if I need to borrow the money to get it, they are jewels with no wear whatsoever. The set-tru 3 jaw chuck on one of these cost as much as my big mill. Most of the equipment in the now closed shop looks like it was just delivered in 1966.

Enough day dreaming,

Boomer :Fire:

[Typecaster]

Don't let my wife see this thread. Who knows what she'd do to stop my hobbies.

[45 2.1]

From what i've just seen and heard, i'm really glad I just have a mini lathe and am more interested in molds than machine tools. :mrgreen:

[targetshootr]

That's impressive. Given specs, could you make a straight 45 octagon barrel for a Ruger SA? I could also use one or two backstaps.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b233/targetshootr/IM005101.jpg

[Buckshot]

armoredman:

"Wow. I feel so...under-equipped...wow. And you call the machines the inexpensive part? Coudja define expensive?"

YOU DON'T WANTA KNOW....

But a fully-tooled 12"/13" x 36"/40" import machine will eventually total $15 - 20K or more - just buy the tooling as you need it, and it won't hurt hardly at all...

floodgate

...........A couple months back I spent $2200 buying stuff for a new verticle mill that I don't have yet :-)

Boomer Mikey, BTW, you don't need to worry about making a cherry if you're thinking of cherry cutting the blocks. Especially aluminum. Just make a form tool, like a key. Flat with the silhuette ground in. One cutting edge so to speak. Set it up in your CNC mill and drill out the majority of metal. Substitute the tool and program the blocks to rotate around the spinning tool for the desired OD. You'll have bunches of chip clearance.

I plan on trying this when I get my new mill. It won't be CNC though. I plan on using a rotary table to rotate the blocks around the spinning tool.

................Buckshot

[garandsrus]

Buckshot,

Why couldn't you do the same thing in a lathe? Spin the block on the headstock and then move the crossfeed with the form tool attached? What advantage does the mill give you?

It would be nice to mill some type of tooth setup that would allow you to move the mold exactly "one hole" to do the next cavity. Something like an Incra Jig for the lathe.

If Lee is using a lathe for their molds, what do you think their setup is?

John

[jonk]

And to think, I've been puzzling over whether to buy a $300 MINI lathe for more exotic brass conversions, push through dies, etc.................. all I can say about your setup is, WOW!

[Boomer Mikey]

targetshootr:
Sorry, I don't do work for hire. The things you want to have done are doable. The barrel is easy and the back strap is not that difficult either but I don't have enough time to work on my own projects.

Buckshot:
I saw the excellent work KTN did with a form tool but I like the idea of a balanced cutting tool with 4 matched cutting edges. I think the single edged tool would have a tendency to bounce and flex too much. It might be fine for making a few molds but a run of 25 might be too much to ask especially when making long, skinny bullets. A vertical mill or CNC vertical mill could easily cut mold cavities with either type of tool with mold block halves set in a fixture using X and Y axis movements. The CNC could provide repeatable accuracy to 0.00005" and remove the ubiquitous human error factor. I don't see the reasoning in turning the mold around the cherry or form tool on a 4th axis other than concentricity but any error in holding the mold block would be doubled as I have seen in Lee cavities.

Boomer :Fire:

[targetshootr]

Ok, thought I'd ask. Would it help it the work was for free? Then technically it wouldn't be for hire. [smilie=1:

[PatMarlin]

Ok, thought I'd ask. Would it help it the work was for free? Then technically it wouldn't be for hire. [smilie=1:

:mrgreen:

[Buckshot]

Buckshot,

Why couldn't you do the same thing in a lathe? Spin the block on the headstock and then move the crossfeed with the form tool attached? What advantage does the mill give you?

You could, and that's how lathe bored moulds are made, except they normally will use a couple different tools to complete a cavity. The first benefit of the mill is that you're not spinning the blocks. Doing a single cavity usually isn't a problem. Doing more then one cavity requires you to offset the blocks. Even with aluminum it creates imbalance.

And mentioning aluminum, it machines well at a rather higher surface feet per minute. Now I really wouldn't worry about even my 11" Logan bouncing around with some aluminum blocks dispaced by one cavity, but there would be some vibration that may show up in the surface finish. Yes you could counterbalance it. But with a vertical mill it would be a non-issue.

Finally (speed again) most mills can rotate their spindle to about 4,000 rpm. Most common tool room type lathes will run their spindles 1800 to 2000 rpms. A 2nd operation chucker like a Hardinge (which is what Hoch uses) will go about 3000 rpm IIRC.

It would be nice to mill some type of tooth setup that would allow you to move the mold exactly "one hole" to do the next cavity. Something like an Incra Jig for the lathe.

If Lee is using a lathe for their molds, what do you think their setup is?

I'm pretty sure Lee's CNC machining center uses a rotary tool indexer.

John

"I saw the excellent work KTN did with a form tool but I like the idea of a balanced cutting tool with 4 matched cutting edges. I think the single edged tool would have a tendency to bounce and flex too much. It might be fine for making a few molds but a run of 25 might be too much to ask especially when making long, skinny bullets."

Blammer that might be true. I haven't done it myself, so............... On the other hand the idea could be modified to provide a more rigid tool, and again without multiple flutes to grind, and stone. Pretty much a cherry with only 2 flutes. Like a drill bit but without the twist. To my thinking besides the simplified manufacture of the tool, the benefit is chip clearance.

You could also use the same tool for most any diameter cavity beyond the tool's OD. In my case using a rotary table, I could shift the Y or X axis the desired amount. Naturally you'd basicly drill out the bulk of the material beforehand.

..............Buckshot