Alliant Black MZ powder - Experiences?

[Charlie U.]

I'm getting back into muzzle loading after a few seasons of not having one.
(Used to hunt with a T/C greyhawk .50 and recently picked up a T/C .54 hawken)

Pyrodex is the powder I am most familiar with, but I am looking at my other options and would like to know what you think of Black MZ?
How does it compare to pyrodex as far as fouling and clean-up? What kind of performance did you get out of it? The cost per canister is just a few bucks more than that of pyrodex so I was considering giving it a go.

[johnson1942]

no experience with it but after looking at several articles on the internet this is what they said. wipe between shots, compress the powder, lean on the ramrod. good pressure curve from shot to shot, easy clean up and not affected by moisture in the air as much as others.

[Beerd]

2f Goex should work pretty well also.
..

[M Hicks]

I have never used Black MZ but recently switched from Pyrodex to Blackhorn 209. I use it in a T/C Impact, not a high-end front stuffer but it has been great to me. Clean-up is very easy and I use regular firearm cleaners to do it. That is what the manufacturer recommended. Fouling was very minimal. I have fired nine shots before cleaning. Loading was still easy on the ninth shot and I only cleaned it because it didn't feel traditionally right to fire so many times without doing it.

[johnson1942]

to m hicks, i hate to admit it too, but black horn 209 is really good, just as acurrate as black powder in the guns ive tried it in. im staying with back in all my side locks but my sons new inline is useing nothing but 209. the pressure curve is very consistant.

[M Hicks]

I am by all means a self admitted non-expert at muzzleloading. Some would even say that since mine is not a flint lock it isn't a muzzleloader. I am not ashamed to say that I use what works though and I enjoy shooting it. I have no real way of testing the pressure curve. At least I don't know how to. I don't have the traditional muzzleloader powder flask and other goodies. I used the info from Blackhorn's website to make sure I was using the correct volume of powder by weighing the charges listed on their website. I found that 90 grains by volume pushing a 250 grain .452 XTP wrapped in a Harvester sabot gives me a group just under an inch at 100 yards. I was pretty thrilled about that. Previously I was using the Pyrodex and Power Belt projectiles that grouped worse than a 12 ga. I thought it was the firearm but learned differently. The accuracy of the load combined with ease of cleaning using nothing special sold me on the stuff.

I have heard similar statements about Black MZ but have never tried it. Only because I heard more good things about 209.

[johnson1942]

ive used black horn 209 in my 1/18 twist .45 cal paperpatched gun. and how i get it to go off i use 10 grains of black in first then the 209 on top of that in my side lock. again i hate to admit it but the groups at 100 yards were just as good as all black groups. i will keep useing just black in that one but at leaste i know i have a back up powder that works. 209 is really good stuff.

[colonelhogan44]

I used pyrodex, but then I switched to Kik 2f from Powder Inc, and I will never go back. Cleanup is so easy, fouling is very minimal.

There's nothing like the real thing -- holy black is still the best choice.

[Beerd]

-- holy black is still the best choice.

True, but if he's already getting moa groups, why change?
..

[rodwha]

Is Black MZ a high output powder like Triple 7 or Blackhorn 209, or is it more like Pyrodex, giving similar results as standard BP?

Many state that there is nothing better than real BP, and I cannot comment on that, but I would give a more energetic version, such as Swiss, which I've tried to locate locally but can't, or even this new Olde Eynsford, which I understand to be similar to Swiss. I don't want to need to stock up on, nor carry, a couple of types/sizes of powder, and typical BP just doesn't have enough oomph for my cap n ball pistol, which is why I've bought 3F Triple 7. I am on the lookout for Olde Eynsford though as I'm ready to buy more powder.

Does MZ need to be duplexed in a cap lock? Blackhorn does, correct?

[colonelhogan44]

True, but if he's already getting moa groups, why change?
..

That was another person saying that Blackhorn 209 gave him MOA. The OP uses Pyrodex...:violin:

[dondiego]

Where are you located in Michigan Charlie?

[johnson1942]

the internet says black mz goes off as easy as black powder or pyrodox.

[Charlie U.]

Where are you located in Michigan Charlie?

about 30 miles west of Kalamazoo....just inland from South Haven.

The things I have read about Blackhorn 209 sound great, but it isn't as readily available in my local stores and it's noticeably more expensive than BP or pyrodex. Besides, my t/c hawken is not set up to use 209 primers.
I asked about Black MZ because I am interested in a clean burning substitute that doesn't contain the sulfur that BP and pyrodex have.

[M Hicks]

Didn't even think about your Hawken not being set up for 209 primers. Didn't mean to get it a little side tracked. From what I have hear, see read on the internet, Black MZ is a clean burning substitute. I do not personally know anyone that has used it. Give some a try and see how it works for you. It could be exactly what you are looking for.

[badgeredd]

about 30 miles west of Kalamazoo....just inland from South Haven.

The things I have read about Blackhorn 209 sound great, but it isn't as readily available in my local stores and it's noticeably more expensive than BP or pyrodex. Besides, my t/c hawken is not set up to use 209 primers.
I asked about Black MZ because I am interested in a clean burning substitute that doesn't contain the sulfur that BP and pyrodex have.

I am resurrecting this thread to see if anyone has actually TRIED Black MZ. Let's try to stay on topic which is Black MZ and its attributes. Thanks.

Edd

[GunSlingerNM]

I picked up a bottle of Alliant Black-MZ and really like the stuff so far. I have shot it mostly in my Ruger Old Army it has a lot of pep and cleans up easily. I started off using 18gr, 457 RB, 1/4 inch lubed wad, and CCI #11 caps and increased load from there.
Finally ended up on 30gr Black MZ, 457 RB, 1/8 inch lubed wad and CCI #11 or RWS 1075 Plus caps. ROA has Tresco nipples installed. Target distance was 25 meters. Mostly hitting POA a couple of fliers due to operator error.
Power is 2F or it looks that way. Bottle does not state size. It goes off easily and no misfires. Amount of smokes similar to Pyrodex maybe slightly less.

[Lefty Red]

Can't find it around here, but I use BH209 in my inline. Before that, I used TTT7 and really liked it over anything else except for true BP. But noone carries BP around here anymore, so I buy TTT7 off the shelf.

Lefty

[marquette]

I just bought my 2nd lb of Black MZ last night. I discovered it last year after being recommended to me by Toby Bridges when I was trying to get a T/C Tree hawk to shoot accuractly. The Tree Hawk has a 1;20 twist barrel wit standard #11 cap side lock ignition. 2F & 3F caused too much fouling for the sabots to load after 1 shot. Using MZ i can load 6-8 shots with a range rod with no loss in accuracy. 3-5 shots can easily be loaded with the ramrod on the gun. I really don't know about more than that because 3-5 covers hunting situations. It cleans easily with water based cleaners. I think i am using Simple Green mixed with windshield washer solvent to keep it from freezing. I am using 260 gr Harvester PT Gold bullets with Harvester crush rib sabots over 85 gr of MZ to produce a 3 in group at 100 yds with iron sights off thee bench. Last weekend i was able to do a little experimenting with 300 gr PT Golds over 100 gr of MZ. Impact seems to be the but will need more range time this weekend to be conclusive. I'm looking for a little more mass to try and reduce drop at 150 yds. I have had zero misfires using CCI and RWS #11 caps. Last deer season we had some weird weather with fog and light drizzle some days as compared to the normal cold and snow. I loaded the gun on Saturday morning and used it until Wednesday with out firing it. I obviously uncapped the gun when ever traveling from hunting spot to spot and at night time the gun stayed in the truck. On Wednesday I decided at lunch time that I better see if the gun would go off with all the moisture we had. It went off like i had just loaded it. Dead center on a paper plate at about 60 yds. The powder doesn't seem to draw any moisture. I have been black powder hunting since the mid 70's with Goex and I don't think it would have ever with stood the moisture. I didn't notice any difference in how the remainder of the lb I bought last year performed then compared to when I took it out this fall. So far as I can tell MZ meets every claim Alliant has made about it. I don't think it is as clean as Blackhorn but the low flash point for #11 caps makes up for that to me. Also as far as I can tell so far it is as un corrosive as they claim

[badgeredd]

I just bought my 2nd lb of Black MZ last night. I discovered it last year after being recommended to me by Toby Bridges when I was trying to get a T/C Tree hawk to shoot accuractly. The Tree Hawk has a 1;20 twist barrel wit standard #11 cap side lock ignition. 2F & 3F caused too much fouling for the sabots to load after 1 shot. Using MZ i can load 6-8 shots with a range rod with no loss in accuracy. 3-5 shots can easily be loaded with the ramrod on the gun. I really don't know about more than that because 3-5 covers hunting situations. It cleans easily with water based cleaners. I think i am using Simple Green mixed with windshield washer solvent to keep it from freezing. I am using 260 gr Harvester PT Gold bullets with Harvester crush rib sabots over 85 gr of MZ to produce a 3 in group at 100 yds with iron sights off thee bench. Last weekend i was able to do a little experimenting with 300 gr PT Golds over 100 gr of MZ. Impact seems to be the but will need more range time this weekend to be conclusive. I'm looking for a little more mass to try and reduce drop at 150 yds. I have had zero misfires using CCI and RWS #11 caps. Last deer season we had some weird weather with fog and light drizzle some days as compared to the normal cold and snow. I loaded the gun on Saturday morning and used it until Wednesday with out firing it. I obviously uncapped the gun when ever traveling from hunting spot to spot and at night time the gun stayed in the truck. On Wednesday I decided at lunch time that I better see if the gun would go off with all the moisture we had. It went off like i had just loaded it. Dead center on a paper plate at about 60 yds. The powder doesn't seem to draw any moisture. I have been black powder hunting since the mid 70's with Goex and I don't think it would have ever with stood the moisture. I didn't notice any difference in how the remainder of the lb I bought last year performed then compared to when I took it out this fall. So far as I can tell MZ meets every claim Alliant has made about it. I don't think it is as clean as Blackhorn but the low flash point for #11 caps makes up for that to me. Also as far as I can tell so far it is as un corrosive as they claim

That is some helpful information. Since the Blackhorn really needs 209 primers, I really wanted to know how the Alliant powder does with #11 caps. Thanks

Edd

[rsrocket1]

I just bought a pound of Black MZ.
I love Blackhorn 209 and have gotten near perfect ignition with the stock CVA Hex breech plug in my Optima Pro with excellent results out to 100 yards using Lee TL452-230TC cast bullets and T/C yellow sabots and either CCI209M's or W209's. I will shoot the Black MZ next week (wind is 25-40mph today), but I wanted to see how it measured out on the 100g BP powder measure.

Here are my findings:

Alliant Black MZ
100g by volume
1 89.2
2 91.8
3 90.1
4 93.5
5 95.5
6 93.4
7 94.9

Lo 89.2
Hi 95.5
Av 92.6
ES 6.3
SD 2.4

not very promising as a powder to be measured by volume. The "boulders" really settle down when the powder measure is tapped and you can compact it even more with just a little pressure. I think I'll pre-load up a couple dozen charges by weight and see how consistent the shooting is that way. If I can get Black MZ to work, it would be great since it costs less than half what BH209 does.

...more to follow

[GunSlingerNM]

Black-MZ compresses nicely. So far I like it but have only used in revolvers. I will try it out in my smoke poles when weather gets nicer and time allows.

[rsrocket1]

Took 10 premeasured loads of 72g by weight which should be about 80g BP equivalent. Shot with my CVA Optima Pro with cast Lee TL452-230-TC boolits (weighing in at 240g) and used TC yellow 452->.50 cal sabots. Primed with CCI209M's.

First set were some test shots at 25 yards with 56g by weight (80g volume) Blackhorn 209:
88573

After the fouling shot, the next three was the proverbial "clover leaf". Not bad for rough scoops of BH209. Flakey chrono reading claimed about 1685 fps, but only 2 registered.
Oh, well, on to the Black MZ and 50 yards.

Unfortunately, the chronograph wasn't cooperating and I did not get good reading until the last three shots. That was when I moved the chronograph back another 5 feet to where I usually set it at this shooting range. I wanted to move it up because I was afraid the sabot might open up and take out the skyscreen sticks. They didn't pose a problem and I only got a couple of valid readings for an average of 1790fps and not a great group:
88574

Observations:
1. You really need to weigh the Black MZ charges. Otherwise, it just keeps settling more and more into the powder measure and you can get 5-10% more into the measure by just tapping it long enough. Maybe with a routine of tapping the powder measure many times, you can get a more consistent charge. I'll have to try that at home sometime.

2. You are supposed to crunch down on the bullet with the ramrod. I had a tough time doing this because my fat .453" 45ACP sabot-ed bullets already had a very tight fit going down the muzzle. I gave my bullets a running start by ramming the last 5" in one final push.

3. Black MZ produces much more smoke than Blackhorn 209 which produces no more smoke than a standard .308 smokeless rifle shot.

4. I used a dry patch between Black MZ shots and felt "crusties" near the breech end. The pulled patch produced a number of gray granuals, but not too much soot, at least no more than the occasional BH209 dry patches I had run through in the past. There was no crust layer anywhere near the muzzle end of the bore as observed in the commercial review. Next time, I may run 5+ shots without touching the bore to see if it forms.

5. Clean up seemed just as easy with Black MZ as it was with Blackhorn 209. A few wet patches with Hoppes #9 followed by a few dry patches and the bore was clean. About as easy as cleaning my smokeless rifles/shotguns/pistols. Finally a lightly damp patch with Rem Oil and a cleaning of the breech plug with #9 and it was done. The powder face of the breech plug had a firm crust of white residue on it compared to a soft black sooty coating with BH209.

I hope to work up a load that is more accurate and can get at least a sub 3" group at 100 yards with this powder. So far, other than its terribly inconsistent volumetric metering, Black MZ seems to perform pretty good. For my current needs which is just blasting and plinking it's probably more than adequate, but I'd like to see what the power is capable of doing as well as seeing how consistent it can be velocity wise now that I figured out my chrony problems.

[marquette]

I've noticed the same thing with MZ as far as granule size. I have always been in the habit of thumping the side of my measure with black powder and topping off so MZ hasn't been any different. Since I load MZ directly from the canister with a spout type lid I have gotten in the habit of shaking the canister before loading to keep the powder granules mixed up. Here in Mn we can't use scopes during the ML deer season so I have Williams peeps with a Fire sight front blade on my Tree Hawk. Yesterday I was able to dance around the 9 ring on a 100 yd target off the bench. Some rounds touched but never consecutive rounds. I know sight picture is part of the problem with that big front fiber optic sight. Hopefully someone with a scope will be able to do some serious testing on group size at 100 yds and relay the results.
rsrocket1 Have you tried Crush Rib sabots? I can't force a .451 down my bore with the regular black sabot that T/C supplies. Same bullet with a crush rib goes down smooth with reasonable force.

[rsrocket1]

The chrony was a little more cooperative today
Date 11/26/13
Temp 60
Bullet TL452-230-TC
Powder Black MZ
67.5gby weight
1 1692
2 1603
3 1644
4 1618
5 1698
6 1648

Min 1603
Max 1698
Ave 1650
Ex Sprd 95
Std Dev 38.3

Only had time for the 25 yard line shots. Plus I was sighting in a new scope so this wasn't an accurate load test, just a consistent velocity test. My biggest problem is uncertainty in getting a firm seat using these sabots. I know they are in contact with the powder, I'm just not sure it's crunched down hard.

The sabots are the yellow superglide type and the filled width with my .452 bullets is .506".

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/27/vy8atygy.jpg

[GunSlingerNM]

Thanks for the info. So far I like the stuff. I am still playing around with it. Not much fouling and cleans up easy only thing I dislike is the amount of smoke but compared to the holy black about the same IMO.
If weather is nice tomorrow I will go out and fire off a few.

[rsrocket1]

compared to the holy black about the same IMO.


I don't even know what BP smoke looks like from a gun. I've only burned home made BP both as a kid and lately with my son in piles on the ground :). Your observation gives a good benchmark of what to expect when shooting the real stuff. Thanks.

[Buzzard II]

KIK is my choice for muzzleloader and cartridge (2F). Cleaner than Goex, better prices too! I order from Powder Inc.

[johnson1942]

Rsrocket 1, i was surprised at the considerable diff. in ft.per sec diff in the same weighed charge. it shys me away for trying the powder when their is that much diff. once years ago i drop tubed pyrodex into 45/70 cases and the weight was the same in all the cases. since i have a long throat in that gun i swaged up some 459 bullets of pure lead that weighed 1000 grains. this was for testing only. i ran them through a chronograph and they only varied 4 ft per sec diff. maybe the weight of the bullet had something to do with it. they went 1000 ft per sec to 1004 ft per sec. i did shoot a doe with them but that was the last of that. again i was going to try a lb. of black mz untill i read your stats. thanks for posting what you did.

[rsrocket1]

The speed difference certainly did not come from weight differences because I hand weighed each charge to within a couple tenths of a grain. The other possibility could be from the seating pressure. I know you are supposed to crunch down on the powder, but with a tight sabot, you can never be sure how hard you crunched down.

I went out again yesterday for a "quickie" and after 6 shots at the 25 yard line with excellent groups, I put the target out at the 100 yard line and shot again. This time, I tried a standardized method of scoop and dump. This consisted of using my 2.8cc Lee scoop, making a single swipe into the powder and scraping off the top without tapping or shaking. That has given me an approximately 80g BP volume. The groups were not terribly good (about 4"). I then ran a dry patch between each of the next 6 shots. The patches went down fairly easily, but I ran into considerable "crusties" near the breech and pulled out gray granuals from the patch. The groups went down to about 2-3". Not great, but again, I'm using truncated cone 45ACP bullets (BC = .146). I think that's about as good as I can get with this bullet.

When I got home, I experimented with this scoop method and got 76g +/- 1g so long as I didn't tap or shake the scoop, just leveled it off. This would make a decent method of getting consistent loads.

Conclusions of Black MZ so far:
Pros:

Very easy to ignite
Easy to clean. Hoppe's #9 or CLP, either one cleans up the barrel completely at home.
Lots of smoke. Good if you want to let someone know you are shooting a muzzleloader
No caustic sulfur smell, just a thick cloud of what smells like "smokeless powder"
Fairly energetic. In the ballpark velocity of BP and BP subs when measured by volume
Less than 1/2 the price of BH 209


Cons:

Appears to have a large spread of velocity, but that is probably because of the caveats you need to understand
Inconsistent weights unless you are very deliberate with volume measurements
Inconsistent bullet seating pressure, especially if you have a tight sabot or allow "crusties" to build up near the breech
Very smokey if you want to immeidately see what you shot
Compared to BH209, a harder crustier residue left on the breechface that needs a little more elbow grease to clean off. No big deal, but this is probably the same crust that forms on the wall which could lead to inconsistent seating.



For shots inside 50 yards, I think this is an excellent powder even if you don't heed the caveats. At 100+ yards, there is a distinct learning curve that each individual must experiment with in order to get reliable hunting accuracy.

I'll keep experimenting with this powder. Next step is to cast some REAL's, Minieballs, roundballs (yeah, I'll try anything, even rock salt and pork rinds if I can find a good load :)). After that maybe, Pyrodex, T7, Goex and homemade BP, but I want to save that after I build my .45 CVA Kentucky Rifle that has been sitting in the kit box for 25+ years. It has a "clearance" sticker from Target for $50.

[johnson1942]

thanks for all the work you have done as it helps us also. i think your 100 percent right and compression is the factor that makes the diff. in ft. per sec. im never comfortable with pyrodex in my muzzle loaders for this reason. it compresses too easy. so with bullets that have to be pushed on the powder it is hard to get the same compression every time. if the compression isnt the same every time then you have diff. ft. per sec. if black mz compresses as easily as pyrodex then i can see a difficulty with it. idaho ron uses prodex behind his paper patch bullets with great success and one of the reasons may be is that you can really get a feel to just set a paperpatch bullet on powder as to other bullets where more force is required. i also believe ron does every thing else right also and the same way every time. this compression thing can affect the soft powders and even the firm ones if one gets heavy handed or careless. years ago some was selling a range rod that was spring loaded to release at a given amount of pressure. so pressure was the same on the powder every time. i almost bought one but it was pricey. a great idea and i bet with black mz and pyrodex it would improve ft. per sec. spread. i have a feeling that black mz would probably shoot with paper patch bullets fairly well because of it requires no pressure to set that kind of bullet on the powder. do you have a fast 1/28 twist .50 cal muzzle loader? if you do i can send you 10 pp bullets to test through a chronograph to see if the spread is less. it would be interesting to see the results. i cant find the powder any wheres in this end of nebraska. thanks for the follow up.

[rsrocket1]

Yes, the gun is a 2004 CVA Optima Pro with a 1/28 twist. I haven't slugged the bore, but the saboted .452 bullets are .506" and are very snug. The good thing is that there is probably no blow by or gas cutting as the sabot rides out the barrel because I have not seen one bit of plastic fouling after shooting close to 100 of these through the gun. PP has interested me and one of the other things is getting some .308 molds to shoot PP bullets out of my Remington 788.

[johnson1942]

rsrocket1, if you private message me you name and address ill send you some .50 cal paperpatched bullets and fiber wads to put behind them and you can test black mz as you did the other bullets to see if they are better for velocity spread. their are a few of us out here who would be interested in the results. i and a few other here have considerble knowledge about paperpatched bullets and muzzleloader but i have no knowledge of modern smokleless rifles. if you were to post on the smokles paperpatched site questions their a ton of shooters who could help you get started, as a matter of fact i think i remember that their is one up their now about the .308. the offer is still open for some bullets to test, i make really good ones by swageing them, they would be wrapped also for you. johnson1942

[rsrocket1]

Tried sending a PM, but it bounced back saying your message box is full.

[johnson1942]

how do i clean it out?

[johnson1942]

sorry for the trouble but i thinks i cleaned some space, try again. if not i will have my wife do it, she is the expert. i will have the bullets done by tomorrow night.

[usmc1963]

i use black mz in my cva bobcat with the musket nipple 90 grs with the lee 250 real boolit have went 28 shoots without cleaning have never had a misfire with it like i had with triple 7 i will stay with black mz or my home made black

[cbashooter]

Yes.in a .50 investarms 1-32 twist sidelock.cci 11 standard caps as well.light offhand load of 50g.no.cleaning during each 40 shot session.accuraccy remains good.grouping at 50 yards under 1.5" mostly.

[Newtire]

So far, have used the Black MZ in 2 .58 Zouaves with good results. Was also shooting some 777 2f for comparison.

Using a lightweight SWC looking Lyman target Minie, both powders shot well but muzzle velocity using MZ was lower for equal volume measured amounts.

Going to heavier 500+ grain Minies (2-Lee, a Lyman and an RCBS¥), I got same velocity for equal volume charges of 777 vs Black MZ.

The 777 had a noticably sharper punch back on the shoulder. Using RWS musket caps, had no noticeable ignition troubles.

No fouling buildup other than a little after 1st shot.

Used T-17 to clean up and 3-in-one for storage.

This powder is not in same class as Pyro or real black. Pretty much a wipe til clean with T-7 cleaner I picked up at LGS, then oil and put away. No rust and not much smell. Good powder. I used just 60-40 olive oil to beeswax to lube the outside of the Minies.

That's my story & I'm stickin to it.

[cbashooter]

If you have a Sportsmans Warehouse in your area you might want to check in they are selling the powder for $9.99 a pound

[Newtire]

Thanks cba! They are sold out now in Boise/Meridian but I bought an ample supply when I saw it for that price last summer. Other places around here sell it but for close to 3X that price!

[cbashooter]

I'm knocking down five cans a week well they still have it for the same price. By tomorrow I will have 20 cans. It's been working very well in my 54 caliber Plains pistol. Also incredibly well it in my 54 TC and my 50 Lyman cap lock.

[Newtire]

Can't beat that price. I just hope the powder lasts a long time. Sounds like you are set for awhile. I don't hear alot about it except for the nay-sayers and keyboard experts in all the m/l groups seem to use it to jack up their post counts.

We have one more Sportsman in the area that I will check out this morning and pick up another bottle if they have any.

What I am finding is that the Black MZ takes alot more to bring it up to the same velocity as when using 2 F 777. It gets closer to the same speed with the heavier weight Minie balls but still lags behind even then. So, not as energetic as 777 2F.

It really does light off easily.

I am going to work with it this next week using some Lee REAL slugs in .45 out of a 25" barrelled Numrich "offhand" rifle. If I can hit anything at 100 yds. to make it reliable enough to use for deer, I would like to use it this fall for that.

It's got enough speed but the accuracy may not be there? Will just have to see. It's all pretty fun trying. I could never make those REAL slugs do real well out of my old T/C .50Hawken unless I kept the charge down to around 60 gr. 3F GOEX.

Each gun is unique though so who knows. Maybe a powder-coated and lubed REAL? October is still a few months away...WWDCS (What Would Davy Crockett Say)?