The hardening lead aspect of bullet casting

[Vorga]

I myself am just getting into the hardening lead aspect of bullet casting and am not ready for all the math . I am just wondering how people got by without hardness testers for so long. I know they have been out there but it dose not seem like everyone buys them. I myself just got around to buying one and sill don't know how long of a wait till it is even going to be shipped . Paid for the darn thing 3 weeks ago and still no deff. answer when they will be back in stock.

I know I wondered off subject there. My main question is there an easy doesn't matter how bad you are with math to harden the mix correctly? All this BNH this and BNH that 3% this 1% that. Antimony, tin, lead. the lists goes on and on . There is no way our fore fathers did all this back in the day. I know at one time guns came with a reloading kit when you bought the gun way back then. Its not likely they were adding and weighing antimony, tin and checking the hardness of each mix they made.

[williamwaco]

OMG!

You are bitten hard!
I am not sure I can save you but I will try.

Nobody had hardness testers for the first 100+ years.
They are a curiosity and are not needed at all for normal reloading.

You do not mention what metal you are starting with.

Clip on wheel weights make excellent bullets - as is.
Range scrap makes excellent bullets - as is.
Most scrap lead will work fine.
If you can scratch it with your fingernail it needs a little tin or antimony - exact percentages are NOT important. Just a little.

You should be reloading for at least a year before you even utter those dreaded initials - B. N. H..

Get you some lead, any lead. If you can't scratch it with your fingernail, it is OK.
If you can scratch it, mix it around 50/50 with wheel weights.

Cast you some bullets.
Size 'em
Lube 'em
Load 'em
Shoot 'em

Call back when you have a problem.

OH yes:
Stay away from You Tube.
There are a few really good videos there.
There a LOT of really bad ones, some are absolutely dangerous.

Most of us do this either to shoot more, or for fun.
There are a few that are more interested in the process than the result.
Your posting indicates you are not one of those.
( I am somewhere in the middle )

[btroj]

How did I get by for almost 30 years?

By the seat of my pants. By learning to guesstimate.

This is part of the "art" of shooting cast.

A tester is nice but is hardly required.

[Vorga]

Good deal that was my thinking . I have been reloading for about 2yrs and casting for my pistols for a yr. (Not reloading and reading every week bit I feel I have learned a fair bit in the last 2yrs) And have been thinking on the same lines you just commented . But my wife bought me a 308 because I wanted to start casting riffle rounds and casting for my 270 did not seem to be a good idea. My panic point was I mixed up ALL my muffin ingots and resmelted them to a Lee ingot . (liked the look and easier to store 100+ ingots) A friend loaned me his Lee hardness tester this weekend so I could get an idea of the hardness of all my ingots and a couple castings I did a few weeks ago and the BNH were way lower than I expected . The ingots ranged from 9BNH(pure lead) to 16.5BNH . and not many at 16.5BNH . (smelting was done in a few batches over a weekend)The castings I did a few weeks ago that were water quenched are only 13.5BNH. I am not trying to get MAX velocity out of my rounds yet. But when I mentioned this to the friend that loaned me the tester he seemed concerned and stated I need to get the lead for the riffle way harder hence the thread .
I still get a little nervous when I shoot my pistols at the range and I've pushed 1000s of casted rounds through them. Thanks for putting me in my place.
I even bought a Chronograph to know if I am making my rounds correctly and feel it was a good purchase for testing different loads . Heck when I first got it and used it to test my pistol rounds they were flying WAY faster then I thought they would . Not beyond max FPS but faster than what I thought I was going to get.

[btroj]

Rifle isn't that much different than handgun. Velocities CAN be higher.
Mix up a big batch of alloy then use it. That way you know that the bullets are the same batch to batch.
Key is to not over think it.

[tg32-20]

Vorga,
You are trying to over think a relative simple situation.
Mix it all together, if it does not fill out your mold, add some tin. BHN is really over rated, try it and it may work fine for you. Hardness is merely one step in the total equation. Quite often, what you think is a soft alloy will work just fine if the fit and lube are correct.

Don't worry, just try it first. What can happen, you gat a little leading, it will clean up. But you will know if it will work or not and you can move on to something else.

[Vorga]

You all are right and I know I have been overthinking it . My wife always says I am not happy unless I know something inside and out and in this hobby there is ALOT to learn if you really want to get into it. Meaning you can learn 30% and get by safely. Learn that extra 70% and be considered a craftsman . (I know I am off on the percentages ) . One thing that has me kind of stumped is I sorted and smelted a 5lb bucket of WW Friday and did it in 1 batch (melted all the clip on WW together before I started my ingots) and the BNH was all over the place from 12.5BNH to 16.5BNH. I know I am kind of back to the over thinking things . But shouldn't the ingots have been more consistent ? They were all from the same pot, same batch, tested the same spot on each ingot, held tester for the same amount of time on each ingot. Its not like I was adding anything to the batch as I was going . Is there a chance that the Lee hardness tester was off that much ? This is the first time I have ever used a hardness tester but I tested over 100 ingots . I know I was doing it right . Now I was using a Lee Precision Classic Cast Press and the whole ingot would not fit in the press so I would stick a corner in and hold the other 90% that was hanging out in my hand . I wonder if that caused the readings to be all over the place?
The first batch of lead I was working with was comprised of 100lbs of linotype equivalent from the lead supplier (foundry), clip-on WW and stick on WW all mixed in the smelting pot (they were all muffin tin ingots and did not know what was what). I ended up mixing that batch of ingots (ingots not smelting)with the following batches of WW ingots . That was the reason I was using the tester . I was trying to sort them from the other ingots they were mixed in with thinking they were harder than the rest due to the linotype mixed in.
In other words what I did was make the batch I was just talking about . Then the next batch was all WW together clip and stick-on mixed.Then the next batch was just clip-on . Then next batch stick-on . The stick-on were easy I set them aside as I was making them . Friend has a muzzle loader and wanted to trade some of his hard for my soft. What my plan is take what I have for hard use that for the riffle loads and the softer use for the pistol rounds.
If you saw my shop you would understand me. Got a bit of OCD . Heck notice the edit under everything I have posted :)
Sometimes its hard for me to just walk away

[runfiverun]

back when things were much simpler you got ww's at the gas station for free if not you moved on down the road till they were [or super cheap like 5 bucks a bucket]
I had a couple of places pay me to take their ww's for quite some time.
you also had dead soft lead. [and stick on ww's with a little tin in them]
isotope cores and you had linotype.
I was getting pure tin bars in 10 lb ingots for around 50.00 a bar.
if you ran across some mystery metal you just moved along.
that made needing a tester a lot easier to get along without.
now it's 15 different types of iso cores, a mish mash of range scrap, little round cable rings, sail boat keels, and 50.00 buckets of steel/zinc laden buckets of ww's, or bricks of whatever.
sometimes you have to just mix 5 lbs of 18 bhn stuff with 15 lbs of 8 bhn stuff and try it in a mold.

[Vorga]

The 5gal over flowering bucket I got Friday was $30 best price I've had so far. After sorting it was 1/4 clip-on, 1/4 stick-on and 1/2 bucket of **** metal I couldn't use :(

[btroj]

Don't bother testing ingots, it often tells you very little. The first ones poured into cold moulds harden faster and may measure as harder than those poured last with hot moulds where the ingots take much longer to harden.
If they were poured from a single smelting pot full then they're as close as you are going to get to the same.

[cbrick]

First, back in the day as you say they did not use any antimonial alloys. They used pure lead and added tin for just a bit of hardness. Back then tin was as cheap or cheaper than the lead. A 40:1 or 30:1 Pb/Sn alloy was all that was needed.

Next, it's folly to BHN test your ingots and then expect the boolits cast from those ingots to be the same BHN as the ingots. What determines the final BHN of an Pb/Sb alloy is it's rate of cooling, an ingot has far more mass than does the boolit so the boolit will cool much faster than the ingot.

I would cast, load and shoot your alloy(s) in the 308 (not the soft soww), if the boolit is a good fit in your firearm odds are good that it will perform just fine. My 308 dotes on air cooled clip-on WW with 2% Sn (12 BHN btw) with boolits from 160 to 190 gr at 1800-2000 fps, good accuracy and no leading. The 308 is a wise choice to learn rifle boolit casting, it's very forgiving.

If you are anything like me you will want to know the all the little details and why not's, how come and what if's. All that will come with time but you must walk before you run. Cast - Load - Shoot - Repeat.

Rick

[btroj]

Rick, that has long been my mantra. Cast, load, shoot. It is how we learn. A leaded bore is a great teaching tool.
I admire a guy who wants to know more but at some point that learning comes thru personal experience. You will learn more at the casting, loading, and shooting bench than you will with either a computer or a hardness tester.

You DO have enough knowledge to shoot cast in a 308 rifle. Go try some.

[runfiverun]

the ww thing gets worse and you'll pull your hair out trying to fix it anyway.

I know rick does the same thing I do and big batch everything destined for the ww ingot pile.
I make sure to blend separate batches of my ww ingots together to make one homogenous batch of alloy.
I then have a consistent predictable alloy to work with.
I can then manipulate that batch of alloy for each mold or rifle or whatever.
I can't get too wrapped up in hardness when I need a 301 nose diameter for my 308.
all I know is I need more lino to make that happen.

[Vorga]

Well I just walked in from the backyard, I just finished up making a small batch (5lb) of Super Hard (55%Lead,15%Tin,30%Antimony) and it was not as hard to make as I was led to believe . Made 10 1/2lb ingots and they are hard . I will use them to harden my mix when needed . I really am enjoying playing chemist in my back yard :) Now back to the real job that pays for all this .

Measures taken for safety for all the safety police: Respirator, full face safety shield, all my wielding gear, work boots, open back yard and took my time. Next time I will do it on a cooler day .

[badgeredd]

Here is a little hint if you feel the need to check the BHN of a batch of alloy when you are smelting. Get an old teaspoon or tablespoon, lay in on a hard surface with the "bowl" down. Take a faiirly large hammer and give it a light to medium whack to flatten it slightly. Next time you smelt, pour enough alloy in the spoon to make a mini ingot. Drop the spoon ingot into a bucket of water. Continue your smelting and making ingots. After your done smelting, check the BHN on the spoon ingot for a fairly accurate hardness test of THAT batch of lead. You can check it again in a week to see if the hardness has stayed fairly constant.

I would try my best to separate any stick on WW from the clip-ons to keep the BHN up and use the sick ons to modify batches in the future. A 16 bhn boolit will shoot fine in a rifle if the fit is good and you're keep ing the velocity down to the low 2000s fps or slower. Likely you've seen the comment...FIT is king. Hardness is a relative thing to the pressure you load your ammo to. AND it isn't as complicated as a few would have you believe...including Richard Lee.

Edd

[Vorga]

I decided to make a bigger batch of super hard so I made 20lbs of 1/2lb ingots. Here is a picture of the final product . Thank you all for the great info and excellent tips 67613

[Defcon-One]

I think it is as easy as any Lead works, Harder Lead works better!

In the old days, lets say 1800-1925 there were probably only soft lead bullets and black powder. Since then we have invented nitro-cellulose (smokless powder) and better steels. These have increased velocities substantially, which resulted in the need for harder bullets to avoid leading problems with the faster, more powerful loads. Then the hardness game began. Tin and Antimony won the race. Tin for its ability to toughen the alloy, Antimony for its hardening affect.

I enjoy playing with the percentages. It is like a puzzle with a learning curve. It is fun to me.

I use 2% Sn, 3% Sb, 95% Pb for my handguns and Lyman #2 for my rifle bullets. I also use 25:1 for special, cast hollow point bullets.

One thing that I can tell you is that better alloys makes better bullets. I do not scrimp on ingredients at the cost of performance.

I hope you enjoy it as much as I do.


DC-1

[Vorga]

Will dropping my castings into iced water harden more than just water?

[BubbaJon]

Y'know - there's a nice sticky up there on using pencils to test hardness. Grand cost is about $12 depending on where ya buy 'em. I tried it and it works like a charm. I just feel better knowing the number - it's the engineer in me.

[Vorga]

I guess that's my problem I am an engineer also . We do pick things apart .
I just ran the numbers and it would of been cheaper for me to just buy the super hard from rotometals . Than making it myself. It will only save a few bucks but hay it took me at least a hr. to make up a batch .

[ranger1962]

How long do you think ice water stays cold when you drop hot metal in there? I use a couple of gallons in a metal bucket put a pillow case in there and it seems to work good.

[Nose Dive]

Vorga... "Will water temp make a difference in your BNH via water dropping?". My experience is YES... I water drop in ice water...2 liter ice cubes in th bottom of my bucket weighted down via cotton towel and some old ingots. 12" or so of COLD WATER....let them sit...hour or so during casting jobs... ALSO...Your ALLOY TEMP plays a part here...or...'where you start and where you end' does make a difference.... and of course...so does your alloy... pure lead vs Roto Metals superhard vs Lino vs Lyman 2...vs 'your favorite alloy mix'.... all will show different 'deltas' when dry dropping vs water dropping...

And...I do disagree with some above... 'harder is always better'.... No...I disagree. 'use, lube, alloy, calibre, ft/sec., barrel length, hardness, powder, boolit design, "... all play a role in accuracy and 'fouling and leading'.... If I shoot 'hard' 45's... i have leading in my Ruger pistols...drop down to the 10 to 12 area....no leading and accuracy improves....these are not gas checked boolits.

Also...note... water dropped boolits will 'soften' over time.... I wait 5 or 6 weeks before sizeing and lubing.... test them...they are softer....(MY ALLOY)... yours may be different...

So, lastly...is there a 'hardness' good and fast rule for all calibre, all boolit weights, all speeds....My opinion is no... No GOLDEN RULE...other than 'tray to find your boolit, your load for YOUR firearm accuracy and performance alloy and hardness.

Nose Dive

Cheap, Fast, Good. Kindly pick two.

[454PB]

[QUOTE=Nose Dive;3432258

Also...note... water dropped boolits will 'soften' over time.... I wait 5 or 6 weeks before sizeing and lubing.... test them...they are softer....(MY ALLOY)... yours may be different...[/QUOTE]

Quenched boolits should be sized ASAP to prevent "resoftening". I did hardness testing on some quenched boolits cast from wheel weight alloy that had been stored for 30 years, and they were still over 20 BHN.

[Seeker]

Will dropping my castings into iced water harden more than just water?

I was using coww and getting along just fine, after I honed my throats to .452. Always had a smidgen of leading right at the barrel constriction. I started dropping my bullets in water and fixed that..No more leading at all. Now I drop all my boolits into water and am venturing into pushing them faster with gas checks. Still no leading. Yes, it will make them harder. How much?, I don't know. I don't have a tester and have no plans of buying one. My boolits are hard enough now.

[popper]

Get Bumpo's alloy calculator to figure your mix. Don't worry about BHN, you will need 3-4% Sb WD'd to get higher fps in 308W. You can skip the WD for low fps. You need ~0.2% As ( I use #8 shot) for max WD effect. WD hardening depends on cooling RATE so yes, ice water will cool faster, i.e. harder. I keep my different alloys separate and keep records of what what works, doesn't. Like a cook, add what you need by weight. Mark your cast by recipe and WD/temp & no WD. Shoot some, adjust as needed & KEEP RECORDS.

[Nose Dive]

Mmmmm

454PB....

QUOTE "Quenched boolits should be sized ASAP to prevent "resoftening". I did hardness testing on some quenched boolits cast from wheel weight alloy that had been stored for 30 years, and they were still over 20 BHN."

NOSE DIVE QUOTE "I wait 5 or 6 weeks before sizeing and lubing.... test them...they are softer......(MY ALLOY)... yours may be different"

Sizing only effects 'edges of projectile at the sized edges"... internal softening continues with time... Did you section your boolits and test internals or only at the edges of the sized boolit where the sizer cut the edges of the boolit...

Also..the 30 year old projectiles....you do not state the BHN from 30 years ago. Is that data documented? and again...(MY ALLOY)... yours may be different"

Nose Dive

Cheap, Fast, Good. Kindly Pick Two

[white eagle]

Vorga try not get hung up on the particulars
sometimes not easy to do
cast up some boolit with your alloy and shoot them in your rifle
let you firearm be the judge as to the alloy
there is alot of good advice given by some of the best
after you have been at it awhile you will know which of
the particulars you need to be concerned with
this is very easy or very complex the choice is yours which path to follow
enjoy [smilie=w:

[Motard]

I have found a consistence correspndancy between the Lee tester and the pencil's test (a box of koh-i-noor, less than 10 bucks). Gaving me booth same reading on the Lee reference sheet (Btw, by the courtesy of a forumer there is an estended one withe relation to minimal speed needed for obturation): my alloy stay between 9 and 16 BHN depend on percentage and threatment.
I was too over anxyous about hardnees and leading, drinving both rifles I cast for (45-70 Marlin and 30-30 Win) at some speed cause power selection limits here. Now I must say that, with great helps in this forum, the issues I had were all but leading. I am now firm believere that good barrel fitting (+.002 in both rifles) and a dependable Lube (I use a sort of Ben's LL and Recluse wax formula, both adapted to components I can find in this side of the Ocean) are more important than hardness.
Hardness may play a core rule one the other side of the trajectory: not the barrel but if the targhet is has any number of legs.

[454PB]

Mmmmm

454PB....

QUOTE "Quenched boolits should be sized ASAP to prevent "resoftening". I did hardness testing on some quenched boolits cast from wheel weight alloy that had been stored for 30 years, and they were still over 20 BHN."

NOSE DIVE QUOTE "I wait 5 or 6 weeks before sizeing and lubing.... test them...they are softer......(MY ALLOY)... yours may be different"

Sizing only effects 'edges of projectile at the sized edges"... internal softening continues with time... Did you section your boolits and test internals or only at the edges of the sized boolit where the sizer cut the edges of the boolit...

Also..the 30 year old projectiles....you do not state the BHN from 30 years ago. Is that data documented? and again...(MY ALLOY)... yours may be different"

Nose Dive

Cheap, Fast, Good. Kindly Pick Two

I didn't have a hardness tester 30 years ago, but the alloy was clip on wheelweights that typically test 12 BHN. I suspect they were originally 22-24 BHN after quenching, because that's what I see when using the same wheelweight alloy today. Testing of the 30 year old boolits was done on the flat nose of the SWC, so no "edges of projectile at the sized edges" was involved. Though these were "surface tested", I have done testing of other samples where I used a file to remove 1/3 of the diameter, and hardness was the same inside as it was on the surface.

More recently, I've done long term testing of both quenched and heat treated boolits (tested up to 2 years), and found that they resoften by a few BHN, then stabilize.

[popper]

WD hardens the entire boolit, not just the surface. There might be a point of difference through the boolit. WD boolits take a couple days to reach max hardness while AC may take a month or more. LASC has data for WD alloys with BHN numbers. AC BHN is pretty will known, WD has a temp diff. variable so is not known exactly unless tested. WDWW alloy should do fine in the 308 up to 23-2400 fps.

[Nose Dive]

Popper is right. Water dropping effects hardness throughout the boolit. It does however effect the outer surface first and performs a crystallizing effect there initially. If you immediately resize, as was suggested, the die removes material at that external surface..thus sizing the OD of the boolit. This changes the overall structure of the boolit, at it's surface. My position, is, that with time, the BHN of a lead boolit will change. Sized or not.

Boolits do, over time change their structure. I have friends who do as 454PB states, resize immediately after casting and water dropping. Some lube, load and shoot. Some set these new boolits aside for a few months, then, heat treat them in an oven....then cool, reload, shoot. One buddy lets them sit a few months more, then reloads. He 'target' shoots with a very nice black powder long rifle and always 'places' in the money at our club range...or 'award ribbon' position..... We seldom have funds to give away for excellence....

Reworking the external surface of a lead boolit at any time (via a compression type resizing die) will make a difference in what you see in hardness at the site reworked. This is the reason some guys let them sit a while, some guys 'heat treat' the aged, sized boolit and so...thus.... you pick your philosophy, you pick your procedures to address your desired out come. During our 'pumpkin thumpin' shoot out...we gather old Halloween pumpkins as targets, I usually just cast, drop, grab a few handfulls of boolits, load and get after the orange targets set out a 100, 200, 300 yards. Rarely do I place, but seeing rotten pumpkins blow up at 100 yards is indeed a kick.

I remain stead fast in my opinion, that by just running water dropped lead alloyed boolit through a sizing die will not stop that boolit from changing its lattice/crystallization structure (thus BHN hardness) over a measure period of time. One may indeed have an alloy in his casting pot that is of such a fine alloy it will not change over time. That indeed could be possible. The alloy composition is infinite. In this case, i could agree that the re-sizing operation with a compression type die might not have an effect on the BHN, but, the re-sizing step in this case plays little part in the final BHN at any time.

When 'hunting' live animals for my freezer, as stated on these pages before... I water drop, age, size, age, lube, load, shoot. These are not black powder offerings and I do now, today, have 3 butchered ungulates in my freezer. So, are my boolits 'better' than yours? I think the question lacks credibility and is too wide open for serious response. However, the question is in print and was asked.....so..my respectful response is .........

"If your boolit works for you, it works for me".

Have a safe, fun Thanksgiving.

Nose Dive

Cheap, Fast, Good. Kinldy pick two.