BP drop tubes

[Battis]

I used a drop tube for awhile when loading for my 50-70. I was using, say, 65 grs of FFG, dropping it into the case, putting a card on top, compressing the powder, then seating the bullet. I know the concept and theory for using the tube, but what did I actually gain by using the drop tube? I wasn't trying to fit more powder in, and I was compressing the powder. What am I missing?

[Don McDowell]

Not missing much. If you just hold the scale pan a few inches above the funnel and pour slowly you'll accomplish about what a drop tube does, and if you have to compress the load anyway the drop tube is just an extra step.
You can also if dropping the charges from a powder measure just turn the handle down slowly and give the powder a chance to settle.

[country gent]

The drop tube tends to "stack" the powder granuales. Pour a charge tru a funnel into a case and note the hieght of the powder then pour charge into your scale pan, pour the same charge into the same case with the drop tube. It will be lower in the case meaning the powder is denser iin the case. I do both with my 45s 2.1 and 2.4 I drop the charge slowly thru a 3' drop tube then add card and compress to get the depth to seat my bullets. The rate you pour the powder at also affects the hieght slower is better. Some are using vibration to initially settle the powder also. Drop tubes settle the powder into place. The compression die packs it that last little extra.

[cal50]

If you have an archery buddy ask for one of their old arrows, get an aluminum funnel and.........

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu178/cal50/Droptube.jpg (http://s645.photobucket.com/user/cal50/media/Droptube.jpg.html)

[StrawHat]

Not missing much. If you just hold the scale pan a few inches above the funnel and pour slowly you'll accomplish about what a drop tube does, and if you have to compress the load anyway the drop tube is just an extra step.

+1

I was a firm believer in drop tubes...until I tried this. Now, I can get a good reload with less hassle.

[Don McDowell]

Pretty hard to arque a drop tube is necessary when you look at the results shooters that have quit using them get. Steve Rhodes at the Amercian Creedmoor Cup and Southwest Regional Creedmoor being one big shining example.

[Mike Brooks]

I always figured the old Buff' hunters weren't drop tubing either...

[cajun shooter]

Country gent, I can't believe you posted that a drop tube is needed to load correctly even when using a compressed load. That is again something that is unfounded. Don McDowell explained why it is not needed and then you refute that with your posting.
To say that the drop tube does most of the powder compression and then the compression die just tops it off is not correct. What about when you use .425 of compression?
I hope the OP reads and thinks out which posting is based on fact and not just another PC incorrect answer.
The drop tube may be used if not using a compressed load but it may be duplicated by either tapping the case or using a powder pan poured from a higher distance. It is not a necessary step when using a compression die. A load that requires a compression die is something that can not be helped by the use of a Drop Tube. Take Care David

[wool1]

I have found it just adds consistency to my loading routine. I shoot both compressed an uncompressed loads, and the tube may not be needed for the compressed but my loads seem to work better for me because I do everything the same each load. There are some absolutes in reloading, I don't feel this is one that warrants arguing about.

[montana_charlie]

The basic value of a drop tube is to get a large charge into a case which would just spill over if poured straight in.
In some cases (unintentional pun), it is the only way to get 70 grains of powder into a modern 45/70 case ... so that it can then be compressed to bullet seating depth.

CM

[country gent]

Cajun I have been "playing" with this for a couple weeks. I use a both 45-70 and 45-90 cases as measures with my bedding and Mull measure. Wieght the charge after throwing it comes out to 69.2 grains of 2f goex. This is a case full of powder rright up to the case mouth. I then put the same case under my 3 ft drop tube and slowly pour the powder into the case I ussually take 10-15 secs to pour/ trickle the powder thru the tube. When done I have around .300 below the case mouth, this varies by around .010-.015 in hieght. I have trhown a couple hundred charges doing this with the same results. With my starline brass the full case thrown thru the bedding and mull is 78.7 grns 2 f goex and after trickling thru the drop tube the distance below the case mouth is .350 again varing by .010-.015 from case to case. And yes I do believe that due to friction a compression die isnt as consistent from the bottom of the charge to the top. I dont know how this could be provern by I believe that compression is heavier closer to the top of the charge by just compressing the charge. I use both and truly believe that both have thier place in loading. On bottle neck cartridges with black powder I question the compression die more so since the plug cant fit the charge for the full length of the stroke. I agree there are other ways vibration is one used by some. But again consistency comes into play. I agree tapping is another. Pouring from above the funnel slowly? Isnt that about the same effect as a drop tube? Pour down the die of the funnel to get the powder to "swirl" around the funnel is another way some do it. . I use the drop tube and a compression die for my loads seating the first wad with the compression die stem.
But from my tests the last few days at the powder measure I seem to be getting .320 - .350 with the drop tube veersus the case full of powder dropped from the bedding and mull measure. To each his own and what works for them

[Don McDowell]

Up until I started the testing with the Olde Eysnford powder(and even that will fit without droptubing,but the case is definetly full) I had yet to find a powder that it was not possible to put 70 grs(grease groove bullet load) into a 45-70 case, matter of fact 75 grs (my paper patch charge)most of the 2f's available now is a tight fit in a 45-70 case, and all that is accomplished without the use of a drop tube.
Do a test, slow pour holding the pan just a few inches above the case, and use a drop tube, chances are if you have an open mind, the drop tube will be gathering dust in the corner.
And yes you can compress powder in a bottle neck case with a compression plug.
Then do some real world shooting tests, and if the charge fits in the case, and you need to compress it to seat the bullet, just dump the powder, compress and seat the bullet.
Then mess with all the droptube stuff, compress the powder and seat the bullet. Don't separate those loads, go fire a string on a target..

[Lead pot]

Here is a sample I made of different levels of compression from .100" to 600" the left side of the samples would be the bottom of the case.
When you look at these samples you can see why the compression levels from 0 to .300" usually will give you the lowest ES.
When I reload at the range during load testing I usually dont use a drop tube, I just fill the case with the load I want and put my finger over the case mouth and tap the base on the press and this settles the powder just as good as a slow pour through the tube.

EDIT forgot to mention the samples from left to right #3 and #4 are switched #4 should be 3

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_0613.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0613.jpg.html) http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_0611.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0611.jpg.html)

[montana_charlie]

Thanks, Kurt. That is useful information.
CM

[country gent]

Spent the afternoon throwing powder chaarges and "playing" with the diffrent things mentioned here in this thread. Measured with dial depth gage flat point .400 in dia.
All charges were thrown into a 45-70 case from a bedding and Mull powder measure
The same case was used Threw charge dumped into scale case inserted into funnel or drop tube and charge slowly trickled into case over 8-10 secs
Method dimension below case mouth
Small hole RCBS funnel from 3" above .250
Large hole RCBS funnel from 3" above .230
Sinclair aluminum 22 cal funnel from 3" above .250
3' drop tube 3/8 id with small hole rcbs funnel .340

All charges were a case full of powder thrown through the bedding and mull measure. Only one fire formed case was used the entire time. Spent primer was still in the case.
After the afternoon of tinkering I doubt I have proven much but also found out I can make fixed measures from 45 rifle cases for this measure. I never said it was neccesary I told what I did and the reason why in the first post. But in all fairness I also set up and spent most of this afternoon dropping charges and measuring them to gain the numbers above. Was a long afternoon of throwing powder charges wieghing measuring and noting it down. All was the same powder 2f goex, same fired case, same scale, same dial depth gage. 3 diffrent funnels I used the 22 sinclair since it has a stepper top angle than the rcbss do. Also its aluminum material. It didnt set over the case mouth but on it.

[Don McDowell]

How you get it into the case and any measurements associated with it aren't any where near as important as how do you get enough room to seat the bullet, and do you have enough powder in the case to generate the velocity to get the bullet to the target with anything resembling accuracy.

[kokomokid]

I like the drop tube and Lead pots photos show why. Light compression crushes the powder at the top the most, not equal through the case. LB

[longbow]

I gotta ask.

If you use a lot of compression or even up to the 0.3" using FFg powder, what is the advantage to using FFFg powder? It appears that a good portion of the charge is compressed to about solid at 0.3" anyway.

I have to guess FFg is more consistent but why? Wouldn't it be easier to get a heavier charge of FFFg into the cartridge without so much compression?

Just curious since it seems most recommend FFg.

Longbow

[Don McDowell]

Longbow due the nature of the sizes of bp, yes by volume 3f will weigh more than 2. If I recall when I did some velocity comparison way back when Express first came out, a measure set to drop 70 grs of 2f would drop by weight 75 grs of the 3f, velocity jumped from 1210 ish to close to 1270, same amount of compression to get a 530 gr bullet seated.
Doesn't matter how you slice it unless you reduce the weight/volume of a powder charge in a case you still have to mash the powder 1/2 inch or more below the case mouth to seat a grease groove bullet.

[Battis]

Corn Flakes are sold by weight, not volume - just because they can fit more into the box doesn't mean they do. So, would using a drop tube be more useful if you weighed the charge as opposed to measuring by volume?

[country gent]

Other than the electronic measures most measures drop charges by volume and are set with a scale to the desired charge. But they throw by volume. Whether redding, rcbs, lyman,Bedding and Mull, or harrels. Although my harrels does repeat well enough to set with number of clicks open, I still check it on a scales. Even though I leave my measures for the bedding and mull dedicated to a caliber / load i still check them each time with the scales. I agree with Don on it dosnt matter how you get the charge but confidence in what your doing does matter. Most of shooting is in the mind as soon as you lose confidence in equipment load or anything results are downhill. I normally throw my black powder charges from a old Bedding and Mull measure and check each on a scales. Experiment and see what works for you and your rifle. Let the groups be the deciding factor. Chrongaphing the loads can shead alot of light on how diffrent procedures affect the loads also. Id be lost with out my Pact professional.

[Mike Brooks]

I always measure by weight for cartridge guns.

[Battis]

Even with black powder?

[littlejack]

I measure by weight also. 70 grains weighed for my 45-70. I have never charged by volume.
Can someone tell me what the weight difference would be for my 70 grains weighed? I have no bp volume powder charger.
Jack

[Don McDowell]

Jack it depends on the make of the measure and the brand of the powder etc. I have an old brass measure made in Taiwan that measures goex 2f spot on the money, other powders it will be anywhere from 1-5 grs off.

[kokomokid]

I load by volume so that when I change powder lots my OAL and compression stay the same.

[longbow]

Don:

What I was meaning is that if FFFg is denser so takes up less room then it would be compressed less at same volume of FFg. Kurt's photo shows FFg pressed pretty much into a log. Wouldn't the benefit of using FFG granulation be somewhat lost if it is crushed solid? The FFFg at same charge weight would be less volume so crushed less.

Also, not being in the know here, why is FFg "better" than FFFg in these larger cartridges? I used to load 70 grs. FFFg into my .45-70's with no problems and found it seemed to give me a sharper "crack" and burned cleaner than FFG. Also, normally there was no FFg to be had where I was so FFFG is all that was usually available. Now, I wasn't shooting in competition like you guys so cannot comment on extreme accuracy potential of the two.

Again, just looking to learn.

Longbow

[Don McDowell]

Generally it takes less fffg by weight to equal the velocity of ffg. You can get some pretty wide velocity spreads when you go to compressing 3 f pretty hard. While 3f will work in many cartridges as it burns hotter (higher temps) than 2 it also tends to foul harder especially in hot and dry conditions.
There's a number of ways to get to where a person wants to go with this blackpowder loading. The main thing is a person gets to that point by real hands on experience and not think they've gotten there by parroting what they may have read somewhere.
Good example of that is in the thread here about the proud new owner of the 45-90 ready to trash can the thing because a series of loads he built up on someone elses say so, couldn't hit a bull in the butt with a scoop shovel if he was sitting on that bull.
If drop tubing and compressing that magical .2588673.8671 gets you to where you want to be on the target more power to ya, but don't get disgusted if you go to a shoot and some master class shooter that scoops his case in a bowl full of powder levels it off with a popcycle stick then proceeds to mash the **** out of it till the bullet seats leaves you so far behind on the score board you can't even see his dust.

[longbow]

Okay. In the shooting I did which was plinking by your standards and certainly not competition by anyone's standards, I found that FFFg seemed to burn better and give less fouling than FFg. It almost seemed like FFg was not burning fast enough or completely enough. Load compression would have been relatively light and done just by boolit seating. Nothing fancy, not much thought behind it.

Boolits were GG and ranged in weight from 385 gr. to 500 gr. but mostly 385 to 405 gr. and most shooting was done from a 1970's vintage Marlin 1895 with microgroove rifling and 22" barrel (IIRC). Certainly not in the class of shooting and firearms most of you guys are using.

I loaded and shot hundreds and maybe a few thousand rounds of BP and it just seemed that for my informal shooting the FFFg worked better.

Like I said, just curious. I know you guys do what you do because it works. I like to find out why things work if I can. A lot of the time there is no one detail that makes or breaks winning combo, like a good recipe ~ it just works.

Longbow

[Don McDowell]

Nothing wrong with plinking, nothing wrong with the Marlin.
If something works for you then go with it. There was even one fella thought that using 4f in his 40-82 was the best thing that could ever happen.
Unless there is a rule at a shoot that prohibits you from doing something , there really is no wrong or right way, so long as it's doing what you want it to do.

[littlejack]

Hey Don:
Thank you for the information.
Knowing that you like American, is that place you mentioned, Taiwan, in Texas, or somewhere
there'bouts? LOL

Jack

[Don McDowell]

Jack that's that famous ol blacksmith T.A. Iwan, used to be him and his brotherinlaw J.A. Pan were about the only ones making stuff..

[littlejack]

You're crackin me up Don. LMAO

[cajun shooter]

Battis, I suggest you load a few thousand BP rifle loads before posting into a thread. Your post about corn flakes is complete nonsense. If you go to any BPCR matches or even just talk to anyone like don McDowell then you would be much wiser. All the top BP shooters in the world load by WEIGHT!!! You will never find a load that says to load 68 grs. by volume.
Country Gent, to answer your question about holding the scale pan above the case and it being the same as using a drop tube just tells me that you have not loaded any BPCR type loads. There may be more than one way to skin a cat and this is one. By saying holding above the case, we mean that you don't rest the pan on the funnel lip. A distance of just two inches is enough. Or as Don has already posted I have never had a problem putting 70 grains of 2F in any of my 45-70 cases. I then just tap the cases to settle the powder into the case. It is the same level after this as when I first started loading cartridge cases with a drop tube. That is when I decided to stop the drop tube use as it is a unnecessary step as far as I'm concerned when using a compressed load.
I think that several of the posters should study BP a little before posting. 3F is smaller in size than 2F and therefore you will have more grains in the same measurement. It's just like lead shot size my friends, look at 6 shot and then compare that with 7 1/2 shot. Black Powder is unlike smokeless powder in that it burns from the outside in not the inside out. If you have a smaller grain that has a smaller surface area then it will burn faster producing more heat and energy.
This is why a cheap BP fouls your bores and produces very low energy. The grains are not corned to a smooth even outer layer and have sharp jagged edges with uneven shapes.
I have studied BP under a microscope and it will enlighten you by leaps and bounds as to why one powder out performs another. You see why the good ones work so well when you understand the product and know how it works. You want a real eye opener, look at Swiss or KIK and then look at some Diamondback.
I'm in no way attacking anyone but don't make our forum like any other web sight by posting things you only have heard about or read. If you don't have hands on knowledge then study and try it yourself before posting.

[Battis]

Battis, I suggest you load a few thousand BP rifle loads before posting into a thread.
Who died and made you forum king? I asked a simple question that got people talking. And I'll ask more until I get banned. Don't like it, don't read it. I thought only liberals tried to police speech. Wow.

[littlejack]

Not meaning to stir the pot or anything, and I am not taking any sides.
In all honesty, I saw nothing out of line with what Battis ask, or the post that Country Gent posted. We all learn here by asking questions, and making a/some/few statement/s on posts that we thought were true, to the best of our knowledge. There is nothing wrong with being corrected by the correct information, but it is not alright for someone to tell others NOT to post until they have/know the gospel truth of a subject.
How is anyone supposed to learn, unless they ask questions, or post posts that can be corrected. I am relieved to say, that I do not know it all about most subjects, and probably very little about most of them. If it bothers some of you folks that I WILL ask question in the future, and also make statements that I believed to be true, I am sorry. Just think how you will make me feel when you answer my questions, and correct my statements with the understanding that you were in the same position BEFORE you learned the information.
Regards to all.
Jack

[No_1]

Well put Jack....

I will be the first to say I know very little about loading black powder besides what I have read which pretty much tells me to make sure there is no air space left in the case. Does that mean I am loading by volume or weight? The reason I ask is becauseI just purchased a late 1800's S&W Top Break clone made in Belgium chambered in 44-40. I DO plan on loading and firing it with black powder.

[montana_charlie]

Battis, I suggest you load a few thousand BP rifle loads before posting into a thread.
That's a pretty remarkable suggestion.
If observed, it might limit participation here to just four or five people.

Anymore, I usually don't post if I disagree with something you say. But I refrain because of how 'strongly' you have reacted when I did. I wonder how much angrier your reactions would have been if I ever said your statements were 'nonsense'.

I don't have an opinion to express on the topic of this thread, but I will be watching to see if any apology is extended to Battis ...

CM

[Don McDowell]

. Does that mean I am loading by volume or weight?
Depends on how you're doing it, and whether or not you are interested in consistency. If all your after is to make the thing go bang then figure out how much powder it takes to make firm contact with the bullet and wad and use a dipper that drops about that much. If you're looking for consistant velocity then weighing will give you much better numbers over the chronograph , usually.
The reason I ask is becauseI just purchased a late 1800's S&W Top Break clone made in Belgium chambered in 44-40. I DO plan on loading and firing it with black powder.

I'ld go over that thing with a fine tooth comb and if there was any sign of rusting or pitting, would not fire it.

[No_1]

Thanks Don!

[Mike Brooks]

I'm actually the forum king here, it's just not widely known yet.

[Don McDowell]

Ubecha

[Battis]

No big deal. One thing I've learned over the years is that some people just don't like Corn Flakes.

[cajun shooter]

MC , If you think that I owe an apology then that is your opinion and you have that right.
I in no way feel like a forum king and for anyone who thinks to make such a statement is being very childish and acting like a school kid.
I'm a adult who has his experience with BP and I was expressing what I've done in that field. I have that right also. I also believe that in any conversation about this subject will bring out many different views. I was telling what I have learned in my life while loading and shooting BP.
To say that pouring BP into a case is the same as Kellogg's putting cornflakes into a box is pure nonsense ad I continue to believe so.
To set the record straight, I had mostly shot MZ rifles and C&B revolvers since my first exposure to BP in 1970. I also had loaded 45-70 with BP to shoot in my H&R trapdoor. I got into SASS in 1999 but only started shooting full time in 2007 due to some medical problems.
When I first found this forum in 2008 and became a member I was very lucky to have a world class shooter take me under his teachings by the name of Kenny Wasserburger. He introduced me to his friend JIM and I was started in my learning process.
When Don and I first met it was not that good and we had some disagreement. We then made a peace with each other and I was the lucky one on that as he has also been a great mentor of mine. I respect all that he has done and everything he has helped me with.
I also had one of the most knowledgeable men that I have ever met by the name of Bill Knight take me in as a newbie. His teachings into the very scientific study of BP is far beyond what the normal shooter will ever receive. Bill Knight is very well known in the BP field. He sent me material that spans almost 40 years of study and experiments.
I also received tons of help from John Boy who is a forum member. I don't feel as if I'm one step above anyone on this forum. I did not say I was the forum king but was called that by a member who does not know me and decides that name calling is the way to discuss any different thoughts or opinions.
I'm willing to discuss any subject with anyone as long as it is kept on a adult level. I don't think that I should resort to talking like a grade school child at age 66.
If you doubt any thing that I have stated then I have written proof of my studies on BP.
That is it my fellow members, Good shooting to you David

[jmort]

"Battis, I suggest you load a few thousand BP rifle loads before posting into a thread. Your post about corn flakes is complete nonsense."

This stands out as one of the most pompous posts I have ever read. The "nonsense" is the former and not the latter. Read the entire thread, as I was interested in "getting into" BP and learned a lot. What I don't care to read is someone with a tiny psyche or body part tell me all about their bona fides. Is this sub-forum rude much? Otherwise, thanks for the great information, the arrow shaft funnel was too cool.

[country gent]

Well spent a day or so talking with Don a couple days ago back and forth we exchanged information in a polite and informatitve manner. I stated in my original post that I used a drop tube not that it was best or that it had to be used but what I did. I then used 3 diffrent funnels and my drop tube with same case and charge of powder measuring the diffrent levels of settling with each. and posted the results I spent the afternoon doing this. Now Cajun tells me I ddint do the funnels " right" . As to loading a certain number of rounds to be considered Knowledgeable I have patched over a thousand bullets this winter spring and have 250 on hand still. I jast came home from the range Fired 50 rds of 45-70 out of my Sharps sorted out a problem with the rear sight ( screw holding the spring that sets staff angle had lossened up allowing angle to shift) and the last 20 rds were a 3" group @ 200 yds. I am going to clean these cases and with an open mind load them with out the drop tube Just the compression die and see what they do next sunday in comparison. I am always open to suggestions and as I have posted in all questions I have asked Any and all help is appreciated.

[country gent]

Oh and to Don Thank-you for the time spent and all the information

[Don McDowell]

Country Gent always glad to help if I can. Keep on chugging, it's sounding like you're getting a good handle on your loads.

[Battis]

Well, I had a long day. I ate three boxes of Corn Flakes then loaded 3,245 rounds of black powder cartridges. And I have a question:
does it make any difference to use a drop tube if I'm loading by volume and not weight?
Cajun Shooter, I was directed to this forum by someone who took the time to answer any and all questions on another forum. He has a vast amount of knowledge and he does not try to belittle anyone over any question, even the most basic. I would appreciate it if you did not answer my questions, simply because you do not add any useful information. I do not care about the depth of your knowledge and experience, or who you know or trained under - your contributions to a discussion are worthless unless passed on in an adult, intelligent manner.
Out of respect for this forum and the many helpful and knowledgeable members who have taken the time to answer questions, I will drop this subject, regardless of your counter attacks.

[country gent]

Heres something to think about, It may be off topic for the post But I beleive it is appropriate here. For many years I have had members of my home club tell me they dont get into cometiton shooting for 2 reasons 1st is the equipment race puts them out of the running do to cost. Second is the "snobbery" better than you attitudes shown by many competitors. I seen both in ISPC and Bowling pin matches. I didnt start benchrest due to the cost outlay and run ins with several benchrest shooters. High Power rifle was expensive but everyone seemed to "fit" in, especially the dcm/cmp matches. This bickering posturing and attidudes we are showing here is just promoting this to new shooters coming here. I may never shoot a BPC match due to disabilities and health but I can pass along usefull infor to get people headed in the right direction and enjoy doing it. One of my greatest joys was coaching a junior to all time high score in team matches. No better feeling than that. If we dont encourage and promote new shooters our sport will slowly die. Im 50 and disabled and more than likely one of the younger posting. Think about it a little. I can remeber presidents matches and the leg at the nationals being 1400 competitors last year was 600. There is a wealth of new shooters out there wanting to learn and grow lets not scare them off.

[littlejack]

I will second that.
Thank you sir.

[country gent]

Battis, be sure and save those corn flakes boxes they make good wads LOL

[Don McDowell]

I fully believe the biggest thing keeping new shooters from jumping into the bpcr matches is quite simply the cost. A decent rifle isn't going to be cheap, most folks about puke when they find out that the sights they're going to need to even begin to be competitive will cost more than the 600$ imported rifle they got used.. And no one has ever been able to make a handirifle competitive. Then theres the simple cost of the ammo. In two weeks the Midwest bpcr buffalo match championships will take place and that will take 96 rounds just for score. Unless you're living in or near Alliance Ne, the cost of fuel is going to be something of a shock to the average budget. And looking at the cost of an M1A, garand, or AR, they'll cost as much as good sharps , the ammo isn't going to be that much if any cheaper, the cost of all the accoutrement a person needs, and again we're back at the travel expenses.
Anybody that's using hurt feelings from the " snobs" is just trying to fool someone else, cuz dollars to donuts when you get to a match somewhere you won't even know one of the internet "snobs" that hurt your feelings, cuz they don't look in real life the way their cartoon character avatar looks, plus they're going to be busy enough getting their game face on and getting sight settings done they won't even know you're there. Unless you do something really ignorant like walk up almost over the top of one of them while they are shooting prone and start blasting over the top of their heads from offhand...

[Mike Brooks]

Shot high end competition at the National level for at least 15 years. Had no problems with snobbery. I guess some folks' skin is too thin to go out in public and mix it up in competition.
And by the way, the internet isn't real and you shouldn't let somebody using a fictitious name upset you...they aren't real either.

[country gent]

Mike I shot NRA High Power for better than 20 years what disciplie did you compete in? We may have crossed paths a time or 2. I was service rifle competitor mad it to High master across the course and long range. Was switching to match rifles when the MS got to me.

[country gent]

Alot interested in a sport will check it out online and books, possibly show up to matches as spectators. Even out little winter leauge High Power match get a few spectators once in awhile. I had started shooting Bullseye pistol ( only made it a couple small matches) but stopped after a couple of old grumps were ran into. One complaining that I didnt have a brass catcher ( even though he had forgotten his "shield" that day it was all my fault. And another complaining about my equipment. I shot high power for many years and always had an enjoyable time. Shoot a spring beginners match ( rifles and ammo are provided normally) and you are elgible to purchase from CMP. Not best but will get a person started. Black powder Im not sure of. Small bore again a match or affiliated club membership and you can purchase a kimber 82, winchester 52, or rem 40x from the cmp. I can never remember refusing to let a new shooter borrow equipment. My sharps was loaned out for several years helping a gentleman get started in BPCR shilloette. Ive loaned spooting scopes mats stools cross sticks rifles and ammo. Back in the safe is an M1 Garand with 8000 rds thru the 308 barrel of which I probably put 2500 of thru it. Ive always enjoyed getting a new shooter up and running. With loan of equipment also goes training and coaching with it. But still have heard horror stories of match nerves, complaints of issues with others, And fear of just getting started. Why make a show of the worst for them to see here when they are checking it out?

[41wyom]

The one thing that stands out on this and other forums is witnessing human behavior and how criticism is handled. Always interesting, regardless of the subject matter!

I've experimented with the use and non-use of the drop tube with a load that will eventually be compressed and the jury is still out for me. Gives me more to play with this summer IF it ever quits snowing here in MN.

A bit off subject but what we do here every spring, to recruit new IHMSA shooters, is to run a free first time shooter's clinic. We "lecture" for 2-3 hours on the guns, category's, ranges, targets, shooting positions, use of a spotter, firing line commands, a little on handloading, etc. Then they get to shoot free the rest of the day at the match that is underway. We have a drawing for a free 1-year membership in IHMSA. We pick-up a few new shooters every year. We've had as few as 6 people and as many as 37-people attend. Been doing it since 1989. Took it on the road to two clubs in addition to our normal location.

Tom

[country gent]

ORPA did the same with a DCM/CMP clinic 2 person teams 4 hours class room on position sling reading wind commands and saftey. This match used to fill Viale range to capacity a month early. Saturday was the class room and 4 hours squadded practice match and Sunday was a 50 rd matcth. Open nly to unclassified competitors. We had a Classified shooter every 5 firing points and same in the pits. Boy scout troops, Father/son, Mother /daughters, friends, all beginners took advantage of this. Learned and got a good start. All shooting was done from 200yds. Rifles ( M1 Garands and a few 20 or so M16s supplied by local national gaurd) ammo were supplied. All they had to bring was a mat binoculars or spotting scope and personal gear. Huts were available on base for 6.00 a night at the time. Was one of the biggest matches we put on every year. HAd people come from penslvania, virginias michigan indianna and illinois to shoot this at Camp Perry.

[cooterdog]

Battis, be sure and save those corn flakes boxes they make good wads LOL

X2
opps I haven't posted enough on this forum yet to post lol

[country gent]

Went to the range today and fired 40 rds of 2 loads. Cases were fire formed winchesters neck sized .250 below case mouth. to hold finger seated bullet. Load was Baco swaged 500 grn .442 patched with 9# onion Rem 9 1/2 primer. 70 grns 2 f goex one load dropp tubed into case andcompressed, othe dropped thru funnel and compressed. both to same depth to allow bullet to set into cast .200 seated under finger pressure with .030 wad .187 grease cookie of emmerts and .030 wad. Both loads were Identical other than how was placed in to case. Fired from a concrete bench off of my bench sticks. Fired in alternate 10 rd strings to keep wind and light as even as possible bore cleaned every 10 rds. Was a long day at the bench. As far as I could tell and my spotters Had one I ask to spot (and several intermittent watchers). Goups went back and forth all day with ending up so close I couldnt tell the diffrence by group size. Spotter would hand me 10 rds and tell me target 1 or 2 I didnt know which was which until we were done. Both groups were just under 3" at 200 yds. So I will admit the drop tube isnt neccesary after this testing.

[Don McDowell]

Good shooting ! When you can keep your groups under 2 moa things are working about right.

[littlejack]

That's good information, and good shootin sir.
Jack

[CanoeRoller]

When I started shooting BPCRS, I used a drop tube, on the advice of the some very good shooters. Because I am lazy, over the next couple of years I tried all sorts of different compression methods, that I hoped would be less work; dowels, shaking the cartridges, slow pours, swirling pours etc. I found very little noticeable difference from one technique to another. The thing that makes the most difference is your own consistency. Find one repeatable method and stick to it for every single load.


I think that once you have contributed enough smoke to your local air pollution problem to be a serious competitor, you will be well entrenched into your own method, It will not matter if you use a long or short drop tube, vibrate your loads, use a dowel, or turn around three times on your heals and spit into the wind for each load. If you are consistent, you will have tight groups.