consider 12 gauge loads for 10 y/o

[Buttonbuck]

Well with all good intentions I bought an ATI M4 style stock for the kids 20 gauge youth model remington 870, it only fits my 12. The stock on the 20 gauge youth model is a bit long and had intended to have the adjustable M4 stock and shoot light round ball loads for the kids first deer hunt. I found a stock that would fit her length but the grip was too large. The one for the 12 is a good fit for her. The question is would a light load of herco say 20 grains be adequate to harvest a deer at 25-35 yards and be light enough so she would not develop bad shooting habits. She would be using sticks or a rest in a blind. We tried sluggers and they are too much for kids. My other option is trying a single trigger renegade in 54 cal or a 50 cal, I bought every cheap TC ML I could get my hands on.

[pipehand]

What were you going to launch with the 20 grains of Herco? Hodgdon lists some loads with Winchester powders down to 980 fps, so you should be able to sub a slug or roundball.

I clicked your user name, and in reading your previous posts I noticed you cast with a Lee .600 mold for a muzzleloader. That's the one I use for a three ball load in 3" 12 gauge, using a steel shot wad. I would not suggest that for a 10 year old girl, but you may look at different wads with thicker petals, shooting that round ball buffered, with built up card wads for crimp height, and at slow speed for a 12 gauge load a youngun' can handle. Think of it as a 20 gauge RB in a sabot for 12 gauge.

There are a bunch out there that go all catatonic if anyone loads a shotgun hull and deviates in any way from the published "recipes." If you're using less projectile, and less powder, you should be safe.

Good luck, and thanks for getting your little girl involved with hunting and shooting.

[longbow]

There are low recoil loads you might try out. Not sure about your Herco recipe though.

Some reduced loads listed for Hammerhead slugs:

2 ¾” Reduced Recoil: 34 gr IMR 4756 = 1,300 fps
2 ¾” Reduced Recoil: 17 gr Green Dot = 1,050 fps

For 12ga - Total ejection weight is 1 1/4 oz.

Hull listed was Cheddite but instructions say "Always use straight wall hulls"

I am thinking that Green Dot load looks like a good one to try.

Longbow

[Buttonbuck]

I would be using a 69 cal round ball and am considering the ballistic products light brush wads and push them up with cards ideally use an AA hull or cheddite hull if necessary.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello ButtonBuck, break her in gently with a 20 ga load and get .575 RB mold from Lee for $18 from MidSouth or Midway, the .575 RB weighs 285 gr and put it in
Trap Commander wad with 2 nitro cards .125-28 ga below RB in wad like this:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/FB-20GaTreat_zpsc5dc3b4b.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/FB-20GaTreat_zpsc5dc3b4b.jpg.html)
first one on left and it might be even better having 3 nitro cards below the RB like this:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/1654RBload.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/1654RBload.jpg.html)
look at the extreme right one but please do not follow that load for her, let her have some fun at the range blowing water filled bottles till she is comfortable and ready to hunt with softer gentler loads.

Let her have a blast at it.

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Ajay
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[pipehand]

I tried something that seems to work and may merit further experimentation. Took 1 Precision Reloading TUPRW-123 wad and cut it .735" from the base. This is a tough wad, so after I cut the first petal with a utility knife, I had room to cut the other three with straight tinsnips. I then used the utility knife to make sure the slits in the wad went all the way down to the inside base of the wad. I cut the petals off of a WAA12 wad. Used a 1/8" overpowder wad to fill in the concave bottom of the TUPRW wad, and set it on the petal-less WAA12 cushion leg. Overall length is the same as an unaltered WAA12 wad. I set a 310 grain .600" roundball in the wad and loaded it over 18 grains of International clays in a Remington Gunclub hull. Only fired the one round I made. At ten yards the ball hit the center of the target, the wads had separated from the ball before it hit the target, and the chrono read 1154FPS. Recoil was nil, and the report sounded like a 9mm pistol.

Just for clarification, the card wad is put between the TUPRW wad and the WAA12 cushion leg. I did not use any buffer in this load like I do in the Tri-Ball, cause I'm out of it.

The one shot group was .000" center to center.

[Hogtamer]

Both my sons killed their first deer at age 10. The oldest shot an old Ithaca 20 ga with the stock sawed off to fit, had a fixed modified choke. The youngest got a youth mod. Pump, don,t recall the brand. While they hunted with a 20 ga. I figured I ought to do the same. In 5 years my sons and I killed 23 deer using store bought 2 3/4 " #3 buckshot. Mostly tree stand hunting. We NEVER failed to retrieve an animal. That still amazes me, as we,ve all had heart shot deer w/ high powered rifles run a hundred yds or so on occasion. The shot never passed through and shots were 30 yds and in. I just say all this 'cause a big old heavy 12 ga is a lot for any kid to hold steady. I can,t really explain the lethality of those #3 buck, but I tell you frien, they are deadly.
Good luck to you and your daughter!

[pipehand]

I'm winging it here on posting pics. Had to "phone -a -friend " to do this much . will have to do this in several posts.
67595

This is where to cut the Precision Reloading TUPRW-123 wad.

[pipehand]

Here is the lineup, minus the powder

67599

[pipehand]

67600

The peek-a-boo crimp is not required, just what happened

[pipehand]

67601

This is a five shot group from 25 yards. "Benchrested" off a 55 gallon plastic drum.

This was just a proof of concept. I bet it could be slowed down a bit more for the recoil sensitive.

[badboyparamedic]

Not sure this will help you any, I use a Lee 1oz slug over 16 gr of 700X or Promo with a WAA12SL wad.

Good out to about 35 yards.

[Buttonbuck]

I do cast the lee 1 oz slug, bought the .575 mould, SO the trap commander wad I will have to experiment. Really shotgun slugs and pistol rounds and muzzleloader projectiles are more applicable to my state regulations and seem to be the best starting point. I think I need to step out of my frame of mind of just sticking to herco for pistol and slugs and varget for rifles now goex is the one for the bp gun.

[pipehand]

If I had known you already had the Lee mold, I'd have suggested something along the lines of what Badboyparamedic posted. Ajay posted a pic of another wad you could use the .600" ball in should you go that route.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150140-VdoMemorie-Blazing-Sabot!/page12

Let us know how it goes.

[Buttonbuck]

I thank god that Lee Moulds are still inexpensive. I didn't know they had a new design. I cast .311 .375 44, 490, 530, 590 tanner, .600 and the 1 0z key drive thus far. most for muzzle loaders but versitility is good I try to barter and buy at pawn shops etc. Or buy from midsouth or graffs.

[OnHoPr]

You might be able to bring down the charge of herco to 20gr but you would probalbly need a lot stiffer wad collum for good ignition. Likewise if you went to a smaller charge of a faster powder you could use a softer wad collum. Henceforth, the wad collums can contribute to recoil (or percieved recoil) along with the speed and weight of the projectile. Still, any type of 12ga 1oz projectile will do the job on a broadside whitetail at those ranges. Hope you get her to get a deer.

[longbow]

Pipehand:

You should space the wad and ball a little higher, that crimp is pretty deep. Tom Armbrust published a report indicating that deep crimps can raise pressures by a considerable amount. Not a problem if you have a low pressure load but could be if loading to max.

All you need to do is add some more nitro card wads or a scoop of COW to raise the payload a little.

Longbow

[pipehand]

Longbow,

I try not to run anything at max.. Was just trying an experiment with a "Mono-Ball" vs. Tri-Ball since the OP has a .600" Lee mold.

I did try to make the overall height of the whole wad buildup the same as a W12AA wad. That crimps fine in the Gunclub hulls with 9 .311" buckshot. I seem to be having similar crimp issues with the .678" round ball, and I am using a nitro wad and cereal filler under the ball. I believe I need to adjust the crimp station on the MEC. The overcrimping appears to be tough on the shells, and I would like to turn out a prettier product. It does let you know there's a ball/slug in the hull!

[KinkBreaker]

i want to see the write up for the "double whammy" .600 from a 2 3/4

[pipehand]

Longbow, I looked up the MEC instruction video. There's an adjustment on the 600Jr. I didn't know about that should fix the problem. Adding more to the height of the ball only buckled the hull. It should improve the crimp on my 678" RB loads as well once I get it dialed in.

KB, that project is all yours! You can borrow my mold and I'll give you a bunch of wads to cut up. Cutting those steel shot wads was an ex-wife.

[KinkBreaker]

would 2 of them fit in the 2 3/4" testicles projecticles hull?
what did you cut them with?
would the do-hickey that shortens hulls (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/712998/precision-reloading-d-loader-shotshell-dismantler) make it easier to cut?

[KinkBreaker]

sorry went back and saw that you used knife and snips.
they have this wad for the 2 3/4 http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PRE&Product_Code=TUPRW12&Category_Code=WADS_STEEL
would 2 fit it it without modification i wonder?

[pipehand]

I'd imagine that there would be room left over. If the 2&3/4 is 1/4 inch shorter, but you remove one .600 ball, you might have room for a fold crimp and buffering material. The 3 ball uses an overshot wad and a roll crimp.

I'm in terra incognita with what to load with that wad, as all the loads for them are steel. The 1&1/2 ounce lead loads listed by Hodgdon and Alliant use different wads. I felt pretty froggy using a .7ounce ball in a load of powder I was using for 1+ ounces. Not comfy with untested heavier weights. The Tri-ball I've been loading is per the pressure tested recipe of James Gates. I got nothing to go on with a 2 ball in a 2&3/4" case.

[Phoenix]

I load all my shotgun for low recoil. I use a wad that was designed for handicap people that is designed for light recoil. Along with 7/8 oz loads at moderate velocity. I started out trying to make shooting a pistol grip mossberg bearable for my father. His thumb would hurt too bad to shoot after only a few rounds. I designed a buckshot load for him that made a 12 guage mossberg feel like a 20 guag (or less)

Now I have a spinal injury that makes me even more sensitive to recoil than he was. SO I load buckshot and slugs for the 12ga mossberg 590A1 that have recoil less than my AR10. I use the helix cusion driver from BPI and fiochi hulls 7/8oz loads with wither universal or clays. All are very tolerable for me, my wife, and my father. The buckshot chrono out just over 1300fps so they are deadly as well. (trust me my wife is 130lbs and is very whiny about recoil)

I called BPI and told them I needed a low recoil 12ga recipe for buckshot and they told me what to buy. Worked like a charm. I then adapted the buckshot load for 7/8oz slugs and again worked like a charm.

I have considered trying the winchester WSH powder to see if I can reduce the recoil even more. But honestly the recoil is mild enough to not take you eyes off the target.

[Buttonbuck]

Ok I was wondering about using the WAA 2 3/4" yellow hulls with something like the light brush wad, I did not know BPI made suggestions. I think a different powder may be in order. THe kids 20 is nice to get through the brush with I have used it for rabbits and phesant. Some deer bed down in the Autuim Olive just like big rabbits.