Alternatives to "Standard" Pistol Powders

[35 Whelen]

As we’re all aware, the craziness that’s happened in the last several months has made reloading components somewhat scarce, especially powder. I’m a fan of Alliant powder probably because I’ve been using it for so long and am very familiar with it and its applications with regards to shotshell and handgun loading. I use LOTS of Unique, but haven’t been able to find it anywhere and my 4 lb. keg is almost ¾ empty and I have but one 1 lb. bottle. As such, I began thinking about alternative powders for handgun loading.
Alliant has quite a few specialty shotgun powders and I wondered if any of them would work for handgun. I did a little research and decided that e3 was probably similar to Bullseye or Red Dot and the 20/28 seemed very similar to Unique. I called a local guy who sells powder out of his house and he had some of both, so I bought a pound of each to try in my .44 Specials.

I started with some informal testing of e3 in my 4 ¾” Uberti .44 Special with the intent of comparing it to Bullseye and Red Dot. I only tried three loads but the results are as follows:

Powder........Charge............ Bullet..........Velocity

Red Dot_______4.0______ 170 gr. RNFP_____612 (12.8% vel. difference)
e3___________ 4.0______ 170 gr. RNFP_____702

Red Dot_______4.7______ 250 gr. SWC______689 (A little over 9% vel. difference)
e 3___________4.7______ 250 gr. SWC______764

Bullseye_______5.5_______250 gr. SWC______810 (6.625% vel. difference)
e 3___________5.5_______250 gr. SWC______864

Next was some testing with my 5 1/2” Blackhawk Flat Top .44 Special. In it I tested 20/28 alongside Unique. As I suspected, and much to my satisfaction, the 20/28 is very similar to Unique in its burning rate, but is slightly smaller flakes which seems to meter somewhat more easily.

Powder........Charge............Bullet............ ..Velocity......... Extreme Spread

20/28________ 6.5______260 gr. SWC (a)_____892__________Unknown (2.7% vel. difference)
Unique________6.5______260 gr. SWC (a)_____868__________Unknown

20/28_________7.5______260 gr. SWC (a)_____981____________24 (2.5% vel. difference)
Unique________7.5______260 gr. SWC (a)_____957____________20

20/28_________6.5______260 gr. SWC (b)_____863____________28 (3% vel. difference)
Unique________6.5______260 gr. SWC (b)_____837____________44

20/28_________7.5______260 gr. SWC (b)_____946____________30 (3% vel. difference)
Unique________7.5______260 gr. SWC (b)_____919____________57

20/28_________8.0______260 gr. SWC (b)_____994____________58 (2.7% vel. difference)
Unique________8.0______260 gr. SWC (b)_____967_____________25

Bullets: (a)- NOE 429421 .430” ACWW; (b) RCBS 44-250KT .430” ACWW Both lubed with Ceresin Scarlet
The last test was with one bullet and load in my Colt Gov’t Model, Series 70 45 ACP. The bullet was from a SAECO #130 mould, of ACWW. Weighed 200 grs., sized ,.452”, and lubed with a homemade soft lube.

Powder.........Charge............ Bullet.......... Velocity.......Extreme Spread

20/28_________6.5_______200 gr. SWC_____1020____________46 (VERY accurate load) (1.1% vel. difference)
Unique________6.5_______200 gr. SWC_____1009____________45

All loads were chronographed with a CED Millennium 2. Temp. 54° F

So as can be seen here, 20/28 is for all practical purposes, Unique, only a hair faster burning. BTW, none of the loads showed any signs of pressure. When time permits, I hope to more thoroughly compare e3 to Bullseye and Red Dot.


35W

[akraven]

Great experiment. Thank you for sharing!!

[historicfirearms]

Seconds on a big thanks. Sometimes we've got to get by with what we can find.

[pipehand]

Thanks for the research. I have noticed that those two powders are more likely to be in stock when everything else is gone. Because there is no published metallic reloading data, and they are relatively new. A few years ago I mistakenly bought a jug of International Clays, thinking it was Universal Clays. At the time, Hodgdons didn't have any listed pistol data, but I did find a 2006 manual that had loads for it in 38 special, 44Mag, and 45Colt in the Cowboy loading section. Made a bunch of 38's but that still left 3 pounds worth which I am now using in shotgun loads.

[fecmech]

I've loaded 20/28 in the .38 spl and found the same as you, it's a hair faster than unique. In the .38 if I go 2-3 tenths of a grain less than Unique I get the same velocities. I shoot sporting clays with a 20 ga. so I use quite a bit of 20/28.

Ps. My guess on E3 is it's faster than BE more like 700x.

[texassako]

How clean burning was the 20/28 compared to Unique?

[MtGun44]

If you can find Promo, I think it is a direct substitute for Red Dot by weight
but not by volume, IIRC.

Bill

[35 Whelen]

How clean burning was the 20/28 compared to Unique?

It hadn't occurred to me to even check, but after the chronograph testing, I ran a dry, tight patch through the bore so I could check for leading. It was VERY clean compared to Unique.

35W

[I'll Make Mine]

Haven't been able to shoot or chrono any of it yet, but I was able to find Accurate Solo 1000 (labeled as a single base shotgun propellant) on local shelves and the chart says it's very similar burn rate to Bullseye; should work in any straight wall case for mild loads (don't get too overjoyed at the pricing, though, it's sold in a 12 ounce bottle instead of a full pound). Looks like another good alternative for the light loads and small cases that usually call for Red Dot or Bullseye.

[runfiverun]

the accurate version of 1,000 is not recommended for anything but shot shells.

[I'll Make Mine]

the accurate version of 1,000 is not recommended for anything but shot shells.

More information would be helpful on this -- Red Dot is labeled as shotgun powder, too, and between us here we've probably loaded millions of small pistol rounds with it. What makes Solo 1000 unsuitable for pistols or "cat-sneeze" loads in a rifle?

[revolvergeek]

Very interesting information! Thanks for posting your research.

[Blintersifrid]

the accurate version of 1,000 is not recommended for anything but shot shells.

Actually, I'm finding quite a few 9mm "Solo 1000" loads in the Accurate metallic cartridge load guide, though I admit it is, so far, only the 9mm for which they list loads.

'Sifrid

[rintinglen]

The E3 is a very fast powder, barking on the heels of the old Norma R1. It runs darn near 10 % faster than it's older more established brethren. Use data for Clays, not Bullseye or Red Dot, stay away from hot loads, and you should be shootin just fine.

[runfiverun]

the new bottles i have been looking at say "not for pistol cartridges" right on the lid.
i wish i had back all the red-dot i have shot in shotguns and revolvers.
just about any powder between bullseye and 2400 will work in revolver and pistol loads.

[I'll Make Mine]

Hmmm. I don't see that kind of warning on mine; it's date coded 0221112150. From the back label: "Solo 1000 is an ultra clean burning powder that is well suited for target handgun loads in .45 ACP and Cowboy Action cartridges." This same exact wording appears right now on the page for this powder (http://www.accuratepowder.com/products/shotshell/?view=2&product=Solo1000).

While I do see loadings listed only for 9x19 and .45 ACP, unless it has some very unusual burning characteristics, I don't see anything that would make this powder more hazardous in light loads than Clays, Red Dot, or Bullseye. Given it's listed as barely faster than Bullseye, I'd probably start with 15% less than a Bullseye load for the same cartridge and bullet.

[jonp]

If you can find Promo, I think it is a direct substitute for Red Dot by weight
but not by volume, IIRC.

Bill

It is. I asked Alliant and then bought 8lbs for $90. Stress the Weight not volume.

[TXBRILL]

There is also some Herco around. it was an old standby pistol powder. There is lots of data on it out there

[jonp]

From Ben Amonette, Alliant Powder: "We have not tested 20/28 in handgun applications but the burn speed is similar to Unique. Thanks for your note. "
So the powder is similar and I guess we should expect close to the results of Unique. Looks like a good candidate for a back-up to Unique to me

[Viper225]

One good thing that may come out of this component shortage is discovering how well some of the newer shotgun powders work in handguns.
I figure most old farts on here are pretty bad about using what has been working well for years.
I know that I could Get By loading everything from 38 to 480 Ruger using just Unique. Unique happens to be the powder I use the most of.

I could probably make it till the next powder shortage using up my AA #2, #5, #7, #9, H-110, Clays, Herco, Promo, Trail Boss, Blue Dot, 231, 800X, LilGun, 571, Power Pistol, HS-6, HS-7, SR7625, and I even have some REX.
Us old reloaders and experimenters sure can pick up lots of powders over 40 years of reloading. The 231 is probably left over from IPSC in the late 1970's. The HS6, HS7, Herco, SR7625, and 571 I think I had given to me by a relative of an old reloader who passed away.
It is hard to find an excuse to burn up some of the odds and ends when you have other powders that work better. I have gone through some of my odds and ends a couple times by researching on them, then doing a run of say 45acp using a partial can up, just to get it off the shelf.
I think lots of us got to using Red Dot because we had a 15 pound keg in the shop for our Trap Gun reloading. When I used my last keg of Red Dot I replaced it with Promo due mainly to expense. I still think Red Dot is as good a 12 gage Trap Powder as their is.
E3 and 20/28 may have some potential. It might be interesting to pick up a can of 20/28 to try out. Never been a Bulls Eye fan, so I would probably skip E3. If 20/28 ends up being better than Unique, in 5 or 6 years when I run out of Unique, I might switch to it.
That is how you end up with 10 partial cans of pistol powder. OH WELL, The wife can pass it on to someone else when I pass away. I'll keep experimenting, thats what I do.

By the way good work on your testing.

Bob

[44man]

Just about every powder we shoot in handguns started life as shotgun powders.
Today they turn out a new powder every time we turn around. Applications have not been fully worked out.
I fear trying some if there is no load info for what I shoot.

[Hang Fire]

Thanks for the research. I have noticed that those two powders are more likely to be in stock when everything else is gone. Because there is no published metallic reloading data, and they are relatively new. A few years ago I mistakenly bought a jug of International Clays, thinking it was Universal Clays. At the time, Hodgdons didn't have any listed pistol data, but I did find a 2006 manual that had loads for it in 38 special, 44Mag, and 45Colt in the Cowboy loading section. Made a bunch of 38's but that still left 3 pounds worth which I am now using in shotgun loads.

For 45 acp I have almost always used Unique, until son-in-law turned me onto Clays. People are right when they say Universal Clays powder is a little cleaner than Unique and IMO just as accurate, as one loads more rounds per pound, it is also cheaper.

[sargenv]

I and several other ppl use Solo 1000 for 38, 40, and 45 acp with various weights and velocities..

Ny nominal minor load for 40 S&W out of a 6.5" 610 is 3.7 gr of S1000 with a 185 gr RN seated long to 10 mm length (1.250) and got a nice consistent 145 ish power factor which is right about 780 fps.

For the 160 RN that we just got on order from NOE, my alloy drops at about 158 gr and I use 4.1 gr of Solo 1000 to get it to about 132 power factor or 835 fps.

I know other people use it for major level, they seat it deeper than I do and for a 180 gr Bear creek bullet, use 4.7 gr of Solo 1000 to get about 950 fps give or take. Solo 1000 tends to be reverse temperature sensitive in pistol applications.. The colder it gets, the faster your bullet gets.. with obvious higher pressures..

I have also used it in the 38 spl to move a 158 to minor velocity (about 135 pf) using about the same charge, 4.2 gr, as the 40 with it's 158. This was out of a 6" 586 seated to the usual OAL of a 38 spl.

[akraven]

Has anyone tried Alliant "Steel" powder in pistol loads? It is right between Blue Dot and 2400 on the burn rate charts.

[35 Whelen]

Has anyone tried Alliant "Steel" powder in pistol loads? It is right between Blue Dot and 2400 on the burn rate charts.

I haven't tried "Steel" yet, but I did pick up a can of "Pro Reach" because according to the burn rate charts it should've been a little slower burning than Blue Dot. WRONG!!! I loaded up a few in my .357 to compare to Blue Dot and with equal charges it gave WAY higher velocities, as in 200+/- fps higher. I'd say it is closer to Herco than Blue Dot.

Point is, start lower than you think you need to and work up.

35W

[akraven]

I haven't tried "Steel" yet, but I did pick up a can of "Pro Reach" because according to the burn rate charts it should've been a little slower burning than Blue Dot. WRONG!!! I loaded up a few in my .357 to compare to Blue Dot and with equal charges it gave WAY higher velocities, as in 200+/- fps higher. I'd say it is closer to Herco than Blue Dot.

Point is, start lower than you think you need to and work up.

35W

I wouldn't automatically assume that weights would be equal given differient powder densities and volumes. I have been searching for a page that gives a directly comparable load for each powder and then use that to get an idea of how they relate. Still searching.

[Bzcraig]

This is a great thread and if it continues to develop should be a sticky

[fecmech]

Has anyone tried Alliant "Steel" powder in pistol loads? It is right between Blue Dot and 2400 on the burn rate charts.
No handgun yet but I tried 15 grs of Steel in my 30-30 with 311291. It was faster than I expected and ended up at 1707 fps. I had no GC's on the bullets so it did not shoot well. The biggest drawback I see is very big flakes and poor metering.

[Mattm0691]

I've picked up 8 lbs of green dot during this shortage as well and it has worked in a variety of cartridges admirably for me, in addition to Herco being my favorite for light .44 Magnum loads!

[Outpost75]

I have done some testing with Winchester Super Target, aka WST and if your Dillion machine is already set up to measure a safe charge in W231 in .45 ACP, you can simply refill the powder hopper with WST without adjustment, and have a safe load, as WST is slightly more bulky than 231 and you will not get into any trouble, but see slightly lower velocity than with the same volume of 231.

With H&G68 200 SWC max. load is 4.8 grains for 900 fps. in M1911, start load, do not reduce is 4.2-4.3 grains. for 750 fps "wadcutter" load.

[GP100man]

1 aspect that`ll take time & more R&D is the erosive properties of a given powder & load.

I`ve used the burn charts of different powder manufacturers & distributors to use many "off the beaten path"
powders .

Going about powder replacement methodically, not halfhazardly , especially with the tools we readily have at hand
is going to help bring some new powders to light !!

[ddixie884]

Good info..................

[FergusonTO35]

Hodgdon Titewad is another shotgun powder that works great in certain handgun applications. Its all I use in .32 Auto, this weekend I'm going to try it in a .38 Special snub nose. It burns clean, meters great, and fills the case surprisingly well. I think you could cautiously use Clays or Red Dot data with it no problem.

[35remington]

The downside to Universal Clays as compared to Unique is that is is more position sensitive and tends toward higher extreme spreads in charges that get equivalent velocity. Given lower per lb. cost for Unique it's also cheaper per round than Universal Clays. It's over 22 dollars more per 8 lb. container than Unique at Powder Valley, as the Hodgdon powders run at something of a premium. Cheaper than Unique? No. Any obviously very slight differences in charge weight are not enough to overcome a larger per pound cost.

Try both with powder near primer, then powder near bullet over the chronograph. You will discover what I have.

I'll stick with Unique, thanks.

[MT Gianni]

This is a great thread and if it continues to develop should be a sticky

Yes it should.

[rintinglen]

Just to expound on the Titewad 38 Applications. I found 2.4 grains to work well with flush-seated 148 grain WC's, H&G 50's. 3.4 shoots very nice groups with the M-P 359-640 148 grainers. Unfortunately, I left the battery in my Chronograph and it leaked and killed it, so I can not state velocities, but the afore mentioned loads are both mild.

[Garyshome]

Some useful info here.

[LeftyDon]

If you are looking for "shotgun" powders, I found that Ballistic Products seems to always have some in stock when others are out.

[smkummer]

I too went through a phase of using unique for just about all handgun and shotgun to keep it simple when I was moving a lot. Then I started going more cartridge specific and discovered 700X when it was govt. surplus and used for plinking ammo. Now I have started using unique a bit more. For handguns, I do not use unique for reduced charges as its sooty and doesn't expand the cases well. It still works very well for 45 Colt and 44 special when used close to max.. It works well in reduced 30-30 and 45-70 lead bullets. I was using it in 38 special plus P but will switch to 231 for that.

[35 Whelen]

In my 45 Colt I've been using 8.0 grs. of Unique with a 260 gr. SWC cast from an RCBS 45-255 mould. That charge had netted around 840 fps from my 4 5/8" NM Vaquero. Well, I happened to have some AL 20/28 in the powder measure so I threw 8.0 grs. of it and loaded it under the same bullet in my 45 Colt; 943 fps with the same bullet!! So, it would appear that in larger cases the interchangeability lessens.

35W

[35 Whelen]

Here's some more tests I performed last spring doing a direct, grain-for-grain comparison of e3 and Bullseye:

Firearm- Uberti Hombre; .357 Mag.- 4 3/4" barrel
Case- R-P
Primer- Tula SPP
Bullet- H&G #51 160 gr. SWC, ACWW, .358"

e3- 2.5 grs.; 683 fps; e.s.=50
Bullseye- 2.5 grs.; 650 fps; e.s.= 37

e3- 3.0 grs.; 777 fps; e.s.=67
Bullseye- 3.0 grs.; 730 fps; e.s.=22

e3- 3.5 grs.; 858 fps; e.s.=22
Bullseye- 3.5 grs.; 828 fps; e.s.=11

e3- 4.0 grs.; 925 fps; e.s.=48 NOTE: Likely over maximum in a 38 Spec.
Bullseye- 4.0 grs.; 897 fps; e.s.=24 NOTE: Likely over maximum in a 38 Spec.

35W

[taco650]

...I called a local guy who sells powder out of his house and he had some of both, so I bought a pound of each...


35W

Wish I had that here!

Thanks for posting this thread as its nice to have options. I saw some Steel and 410 in a GS recently-the only non-muzzle loader powders in stock-but didn't buy either because the label said it was for shotguns. After coming home, I wish I'd bought either because Steel is a medium speed powder and 410 is slow similar to IMR4227. Oh well.:-?

[35 Whelen]

There's a thread here on using Alliant Steel. (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171896-Alliant-Steel) I've loaded 410 shotshells some and it generally uses powders such as 2400 or H110/W296, so that'll give you an idea of the burning rate/characteristics of AL410.

35W

[taco650]

There's a thread here on using Alliant Steel. (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171896-Alliant-Steel) I've loaded 410 shotshells some and it generally uses powders such as 2400 or H110/W296, so that'll give you an idea of the burning rate/characteristics of AL410.

35W

Thanks for the link.

[Budda]

700x & 800x.

I love them.

[jbing81]

Hello everyone! This is my first post on the forum after lurking around for awhile. There sure is a wealth of knowledge amongst all the members and I hope to be able to lean a bit for everyone in time.

This particular thread caught my eye with regards to the use of 20/28 with certain loads. I'm somewhat new to the metallic stuff but well versed in the shot shell department. That said I've been having an issue, much like everyone else, sourcing pistol powders but I do have nearly 12lbs of 20/28 on hand.

Has anyone done any further testing with the 20/28? Or have some load data they might like to share? Based on the OP's results this could be a great solution to my current powder shortage. BTW, I'm currently using .38's with 158g swc over 3.0g of Unique.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

Jeff

[UnderDawgAl]

Good info in this thread. I've settled on Green Dot as a universal handgun powder that is available when everything else is sold out. It's the best powder I've found for 9mm and cast.

[AlaskanGuy]

I have been curious about alliant 410.... It is right next to 2400 on hogdons burn rate chart, but on other charts, it is not listed, and on some others like ramshots burn rate chart it is way different, and then you check sites like reloaders bench burnrate chart, it is on the bottom of slow.... I bought a large jug of it but have been reluctant to try it.... Cant find any loads using it on loaddata.... So feel free to chime in here....

AG

[Airman Basic]

I might as well bite the bullet, sorry. I really want some Bullseye. But I think the only way to make it appear on the market is to buy enough of one of these substitutes to make it worth the dang hazmat charge. Then everybody will have Bullseye on the shelves. Least that's the way my luck usually runs. So I'm really doing for you guys.

[taco650]

I have been curious about alliant 410.... It is right next to 2400 on hogdons burn rate chart, but on other charts, it is not listed, and on some others like ramshots burn rate chart it is way different, and then you check sites like reloaders bench burnrate chart, it is on the bottom of slow.... I bought a large jug of it but have been reluctant to try it.... Cant find any loads using it on loaddata.... So feel free to chime in here....

AG

The chart I looked at said it was about the same speed as IMR4227. I'm low on 296 and the only other pistol powders I have are Unique and some Goex 3F. Wish I had bought that 410 when I had the chance but I didn't.

[AlaskanGuy]

Anybody have some data on the alliant 410 as an alt to 2400 ???

[jonp]

Anybody have some data on the alliant 410 as an alt to 2400 ???

I emailed Alliant about that the same time I asked about 20/28 burn rate compared to Unique. The answer for 20/28 was that it was pretty darn close to Unique but no testing had been done on 410 in relation to 2400 as an alternate powder or something to that effect as I also had the same idea. I was hoping that the same person that posted the initial 20/28 comparison to Unique data would take up both Steel and 410 to see what was what but I don't think this has been done yet.
I don't have a chrono so I would be looking at pressure signs only and don't feel comfortable testing new powder in an application without 2, seperate ways to see what the powder is doing such as velocity spikes and pressure signs

[AlaskanGuy]

Agreed.... I dont have a chrono either, and am just a bit hesitant.... Plus being remote like i am, i tend to take fewer chances these days.... When i had to be medivaced a couple years ago, that bill for a 45 min flight to the hospital was over $30,000.00 and insurance did not cover it.... Ouch... That hurt worse then the thing i was medivaced for...lol

AG

[taco650]

Check this chart out by Hodgdon.
http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

It shows 410 to be right next to 2400 and Steel between AA#9 and H110.

[ravelode]

I used a couple of Kilos of REX 0 and REX 3 in my .45's with great success, both are not recommended for this caliber. At the time I picked it up for $20 a Kilo. Just found the old can I got it for $10 a Kilo:bigsmyl2: FYI I used Unique data for REX 3 and Bullseye data for REX 0 for my starting loads I STARTED WITH THE LOWEST LISTED LOAD, THEN I ADDED 0.2 GRAINS UNTIL THEY WOULD RELIABLY EJECT AND CYCLE THE PISTOL. I didn't own a chronograh at the time and was just looking for practice ammo.

[dougader]

I wonder if the Alliant 410 is anything like the AA4100??? I see some data in Lyman 49th for the AA4100 in "magnum" big-bore calibers like 480 Ruger, etc.

As mentioned above, Solo 1000 has quite a following in the USPSA/IPSC crowd running minor power factor loads. I think, though, there have been pressure spikes for some people wanting to use the Solo 1000 for making major PF loads. IIRC, a call to the distributor warned them away from pushing max loads with it.

[cbriggs57]

I was looking for AA4100 info, too. That and Longshot are all my local gun shop has in stock, and I just bought a new Ruger GP100 (non-catalogued 38 special 3" with ADJUSTABLE SIGHTS) that I need to feed. also load 357 mag for my father. Can't find much tested info for longshot and almost none for 4100. I', shooting 155 gr SWCGC and 173 grain Keith bullets.

[taco650]

I was looking for AA4100 info, too. That and Longshot are all my local gun shop has in stock, and I just bought a new Ruger GP100 (non-catalogued 38 special 3" with ADJUSTABLE SIGHTS) that I need to feed. also load 357 mag for my father. Can't find much tested info for longshot and almost none for 4100. I', shooting 155 gr SWCGC and 173 grain Keith bullets.

I got some Longshot recently to use in place of 2400 because I couldn't find any. The info I read various places on the web showed it had a very similar burn rate as 2400 with similar amounts. I've only used it in my 303 British to launch 224g boolits but it worked pretty good for that. Will try it in my 44 mag eventually.

[tazman]

Good info in this thread. I've settled on Green Dot as a universal handgun powder that is available when everything else is sold out. It's the best powder I've found for 9mm and cast.
I have to agree that Green Dot works for 9mm and cast.
I have been using Green Dot recently in my 9mm under a Lee 120 tc with outstanding results. I purchased it when I couldn't find anything else.
I found an older Alliant load manual that listed almost all Alliant powders for pistol use and used that data. Worked like a charm.

[AMT7]

Red Dot minus 10-20% workup Alliant e3 Alternate Powder Pistol Handload Range Report:
Preface E3 is a extreemly clean very fast Nitro Mix composition "flake" powder I am told, known for forgiving properties with non linear pressure curve within Red Dot specs. But dangerous if not very careful to stay within max for Red Dot & or CUP with heavier boolits in longer barrels.
Sorry smartphone w/ Tapatalk app don't allow formatting, bold, RTF stuff.
Will post cast polyester powder coat boolit results after we get done in about 3 weeks or so.
Range report on Alliant e3 pistol load workups for:
380acp
9mm Luger
10mm auto

Summaries only as posting all the data from our log is pointless. All e3 loads shot at 100 yard burm target in 50F weather windy gusting to 28 mph (yea fun) @ 591' above sea level. Sorry no chrono.

380acp test gun Sig P238 2.7" bbl 15.2 oz w/ mag near new all factory less than 20 round count:
Factory ammo reference Remington UMC 95 gr MC, metal case.plinker accuracy was inconsistent to terrible @ 25 yards. UMC used to make good stuff in the '80's not sure what happaned at the Lonoke factory in AR.

Bullet= 100 gr Berrys bulk cold swaged lead core electro plated (no jacket) here: http://www.berrysmfg.com/products-c58-Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Pistol_Bullets.aspx
Primer Winchester small pistol.
Cases once fired range brass untrimmed full resize. OAL .977"-.984".
Powder charge increment of .75 gr from 2.1 gr to 2.925 gr. Lowest charges from 2.1 to 2.7 gr acceptable for 20 to 50 yard plinking. Accuracy sweet spot @ 100 yds gradually tightened to peak at two steps 2.775 gr to 2.850 gr and max load @ 2.925 gr began to destabilize. Recoil was mild from minimum 2.1 gr slowly increasing to 2.625 gr feeling like a mild 9mm luger load compact poly M&P Shield 9mm recoil but also started to ruin cases from ejection rebound at mouth in two spots 180 degrees opposite on last one to last two rounds in clip through the load max @ 2.925 gr. Barrel stayed incredibly clean.

9MM Para/ Luger e3 workup:
Test gun:
Almost new factory S&W M&P Shield Poly frame 3.1" bbl 19.1 oz round count ~30.
More brief on this one. No branded factory ammo ref just bulk poly bag plinking mfg'd local 125 gr RN. Unkn projectile type (unable to verify due to lack of labeling), performed erratically no accuracy @ 100 yds.
Reloaded 115gr same as above 380acp bullet type here: http://www.berrysmfg.com/products-c58-Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Pistol_Bullets.aspx
Cases full resize mixed headstamp once fired range brass. Winchester primers. OAL one load batch was 1.1515" to 1.165" for 4.4 gr in sweet spot but rest were 1.163"-1.169" . Steps up in .1 gr more agressive since 380acp went so well beginning with 4.1 gr e3 to max @ 4.5 gr. 4.1gr no issues felt weak was low @100 few feet occasonal flyer 1 to 2 of 5 as increased recoil was comparible to other 9mm factory loads. Increasing accuracy and small felt recoil inrease up to 4.4 gr which was the sweet spot including max load @4.5 gr. No case issues.

Now for the jewel of the three:
10mm auto
Test gun Tanflugio EAA Witness Carry Poly 3.6" bbl 29 oz new, factory, round count 6 prior to test. Factory load compare was Remington UMC poor performance, sad really, wimpy 175 gr no accuracy @ 100 yds.
Workup bullets same mfg & type composition as above Berry's cast plated FN in 165 gr, in once fired range brass full resize mixed head stamp OAL 1.254"-1.260" all pretty tight range consistent compared to other batches. No case / primer indications of over pressure. E3 start 5.0 gr to 6.2 gr max. 5.0 gr okay close range plinker not accurate consistent low about 2.5'. 5.3 gr to 5.9 gr sweet spot very wide increasing accuracy in rise @ 100 yds but very accurate otherwise. Only one slight flyer tight 1.2' grooping to start and 5.6 gr & 5.9 gr dead on. 6.2 gr max less accurate. Recoil was same trend no suprises.

All in all very pleased with this Alliant e3 12ga shotgun powder in pistols.

[35 Whelen]

Thanks for the info. In a 28 mph wind, I wouldn't expect much at 100 yds. Stubby little handgun type bullets at their typical velocities are profoundly affected by winds of the speed you mention.

[AMT7]

Thanks for the info. In a 28 mph wind, I wouldn't expect much at 100 yds. Stubby little handgun type bullets at their typical velocities are profoundly affected by winds of the speed you mention.

Yeppers, hence the reason were so pleased as the accuracy was sooo much better than the "Factory" ammo used which is very hard to find.

[AMT7]

I have to agree that Green Dot works for 9mm and cast.
I have been using Green Dot recently in my 9mm under a Lee 120 tc with outstanding results. I purchased it when I couldn't find anything else.
I found an older Alliant load manual that listed almost all Alliant powders for pistol use and used that data. Worked like a charm.

Interesting as all reports I read were zip on the faster Alliant powders for pistols. Had to rely on web user posts.

[AMT7]

Thanks to tazman here is link to the page with free referenced in a previous post Alliant Blue dot pistol load data from 2001 and several others. Old link was bad as file was moved due to site reorg:
http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Alliant.html

[AMT7]

We landed two lbs of Alliant Clays which is a bit slower (and is a reduced recoil blend) than e3 so will be working up loads soon in Clays. Will post our cast plated results first as still waiting on a backordered casting Rowell #1 ladel to cast our own.

[Tristan]

Outstanding experiment and test results. I look forward to your follow ups!

Thanks,

Tristan

[Tackleberry41]

the accurate version of 1,000 is not recommended for anything but shot shells.

I downloaded an accurate manual and it was full of solo 1000 load data. They had a keg of it at the reloading place, for cheap since it was the older scot version. Only reason I bought it was he showed me in a book load data for various pistols.

I have been finding all sorts of uses for it. Use it like unique in subsonic 45-70 and 30-30 loads. Loaded some cast 38 spcl other day with it. And some 9mm not long ago. Still gonna take me a while to use up 8 lbs of it.

[flint45]

Very interesting very good thread.

[robertbank]

I scored 4lbs of PB when it became clear the powder shortage was upon us. Works great within a narrow loading range in 9MM and 39spl loads I run. Unfortunately it is one of the IMR powders being cancelled we are told. It burns cleaner than 231/Unique and Universal Clays. PB is not quite as clean as Clays in my 38spl but close. I intend to try some 700X if and when the powder shortage rights itself. Right now I have enough powder to do me until ate spring of next year then I may be doing more dry firing then shooting.

Take care

Bob

[arclight]

I just saw this today. Apparently, it's made in Spain:

http://www.americanreloading.com/en/smokeless-pistol-gunpowder/95-8-lbs-commercial-5-pistol-shotgun-powder-.html


Arclight

[flint45]

I have had great luck with PB in .45 auto rim very accurate. also imr 7625 in .44 spl.

[destrux]

I've worked up some good 9mm and .40S&W plinking loads with Winchester Super Handicap. There is no pistol data at all for that powder. When I asked about it on several forums I found a person who said it was similar to Green Dot, and another person who I suspect was the same guy who swore it wasn't worth my time to even bother with the powder since according to him it was no longer to be sold to reloaders as of 2013 (when I first bought it). I just bought another pound of it a few weeks ago, a fresh batch from Cabela's (they still have plenty on the shelf as of yesterday too, right along side Unique and Power Pistol now that the shortage has let up a bit), so it seems that they do still sell it.

I find 3.5gr makes a great low recoil load and 4.0gr makes a good standard load with 124 and 175gr bullets in those cartridges and they cycle my pistols and carbines and I don't plan to experiment any further. I just bought my first chronograph so when I get around to it I will try to remember to post some velocity numbers though. I will likely continue to use it because it does burn very clean which is great in my blowback carbines.

[destrux]

Oh and I had been consistently seeing 800X for the past few years so I've been using that as an alternate to Unique in reduced rifle loads. Works great, despite the charges varying by up to half a grain through my measure. Still gives me a 2" group at 50yd out of my .30-30, even with the charge variation. I've got the measure set to 8.7gr (charges dropped are all within 8.5 to 9 gr).

[robertbank]

Have you folks seen any sign the powder shortage is letting up? We have seen small amounts of powder show up then nothing again.

Take Care

Bob

[destrux]

The local Cabela's has had an entire aisle of powder for about four months. Started trickling in then all the rifle powder was restocked, now they're nearly fully restocked on pistol powder too. All the common stuff is restocked. They even have a whole section of .22lr. Almost back to normal just in time for another damn election.

[robertbank]

Well maybe there is hope some of it will get sent north, yet. Even IMR powders made in Montreal are nowhere to be found.

Take Care

Bob

[dragon813gt]

Well maybe there is hope some of it will get sent north, yet. Even IMR powders made in Montreal are nowhere to be found.

Take Care

Bob

Everyone has IMR in stock including the online retailers. Alliant powders come in waves. I was able to pick up Green Dot and 2400 in one such wave a few months back. One came on over the weekend and I was able to pickup Bullseye and I left the Unique on the shelf. Most rifle powders are in stock. But Hodgdon pistol powders are nonexistent. A few pounds shows up from time to time but that's it. The reformulation isn't helping this any.

[robertbank]

Would that include 700X. This may be a sleeper in all of this. I have about 3lbs of PB left but IMR is not going to be making it anymore. I may have to pick up some when I am in WA later next month. We shall see.

Take Care

Bob

[Paul105]

I got some Longshot recently to use in place of 2400 because I couldn't find any. The info I read various places on the web showed it had a very similar burn rate as 2400 with similar amounts. I've only used it in my 303 British to launch 224g boolits but it worked pretty good for that. Will try it in my 44 mag eventually.

Hodgdon's Longshot CANNOT be substituted grain for grain with 2400.

Not ment to be loading recommendations, but as examples only

.357 Mag Example -- Hodgdon lists 8.4gr of Longshot as max load with 158gr Horn XTP
-- Alliant lists 14.8gr of A2400 with 158gr GDHP

10mm Auto -- Hodgdon lists 9.5gr with 180gr Sierra JHC
-- Alliant lists 12.8gr A2400 as max with 180gr GDHP

.44 Magnum -- Hodgdon lists 12.1gr with 240gr Nosler JHP
-- Alliant lists 21.0gr A2400 as max with 240gr GDHP

Hodgdon's online data has Longshot loading data http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

Sorry, a bit late to the party.

Paul

[gunauthor]

I've had good luck with Herco in my 45 Colt. Easier to find than some other powders.

[runfiverun]

Robert green-dot is PB's arch nemesis.

[betschet50]

this is a good info, I have a 4 pound can of 700x that I use for 45acp and 38spl, 44spl but did not work well for me in 9mm. I think we are about thru the powder shortage in the last month iv found h110, IMR4228, hs6, aa9, 2400. I SURE HOPE THIS END SOON.

[robertbank]

this is a good info, I have a 4 pound can of 700x that I use for 45acp and 38spl, 44spl but did not work well for me in 9mm. I think we are about thru the powder shortage in the last month iv found h110, IMR4228, hs6, aa9, 2400. I SURE HOPE THIS END SOON.

Try 3.4 gr of 700X under a 124/125 gr lead bullet. Worked well for me and runs 130ish PF through ny M&P Pro (1090 fps avg).

Take Care

Bob

[Thomas Traddles]

I'm resurrecting this old thread to share some information on .44 special handloads using E3. I had bought a pound of E3 back in early 2014 when I first began casting and handloading. It was the only powder on the shelf! I used some of it for .38 special target loads, but have only recently developed a good load that shoots 240 (Saeco 429 RNFP) and 250 (RCBS 44-250 K) grain bullets accurately from my Ruger Blackhawk and Charter Arms Bulldog. I loaded these over 4.5 grains of E3 and found them to be excellent shooters in the guns I mentioned. I don't have a chrony, but based upon 35 Whelen's numbers from page 1, these would be close mimics of the original factory loadings (between 750 and 760 FPS).

I'm going to try some loads at 4.8 grains to see how they work. If they don't, no sweat. The 4.5 grain load will allow me to put the powder to good use.

[indian joe]

I'm resurrecting this old thread to share some information on .44 special handloads using E3. I had bought a pound of E3 back in early 2014 when I first began casting and handloading. It was the only powder on the shelf! I used some of it for .38 special target loads, but have only recently developed a good load that shoots 240 (Saeco 429 RNFP) and 250 (RCBS 44-250 K) grain bullets accurately from my Ruger Blackhawk and Charter Arms Bulldog. I loaded these over 4.5 grains of E3 and found them to be excellent shooters in the guns I mentioned. I don't have a chrony, but based upon 35 Whelen's numbers from page 1, these would be close mimics of the original factory loadings (between 750 and 760 FPS).

I'm going to try some loads at 4.8 grains to see how they work. If they don't, no sweat. The 4.5 grain load will allow me to put the powder to good use.

Hoping I can re resurrect this old thread (again) - cleaning out my dads shed - there is a good quantity of winchester WST powder, plenty of Red dot, Some Italian GM3 black dot, --- maybe someone has used that WST in pistol or light loads for small rifle cases ? the online burn rate charts seem a little confused in the placement of WST - some have it right with red dot, others place it slower - the GM3. (later became nobelsport I think - cant find any load info for that - am thinking its a slower powder like green dot maybe?) any help here would be appreciated .
Joe

[ronniet]

I have wanted to use some "Trail Boss" in some 45LC 44 special and 44 mag, my local reloading supply does not carry it ....yet.
Also wonder if it would work in some Brass 410 loads I use? been using unique in these 4 cartridges and it burs pretty dirty.
Ron

[indian joe]

I have wanted to use some "Trail Boss" in some 45LC 44 special and 44 mag, my local reloading supply does not carry it ....yet.
Also wonder if it would work in some Brass 410 loads I use? been using unique in these 4 cartridges and it burs pretty dirty.
Ron

Ahhh well Ron looks like my attempt to ressurect didnt work - we may need sa new thread to get their interest.

[Lance Boyle]

Indian Joe,

WST will work for fast pistol and is quite clean. Good for .45 acp and .38 special. In use it sits between bullseye and win231. Great stuff so far.

[tazman]

Indian Joe,

WST will work for fast pistol and is quite clean. Good for .45 acp and .38 special. In use it sits between bullseye and win231. Great stuff so far.

I agree with this^^^. I haven't used it in anything else yet.

[Alferd Packer]

Titewad shotgun powder is a good one too

[dogdoc]

We may be back to what this old thread suggest with current shortages. I have a lot of 20/28 from my shotgun days. May use it rather than my specific pistol powders so as to preserve the pistol powders.

[35 Whelen]

We may be back to what this old thread suggest with current shortages. I have a lot of 20/28 from my shotgun days. May use it rather than my specific pistol powders so as to preserve the pistol powders.

Yep. When I started this thread over seven years ago 20/28 was my primary subject and it still is. I've tried it in quite a few cartridges as a sub for Unique and while it works all but perfectly grain-for-grain in the .44 Special, is has been hot and miss with the 45 Colt and sometimes gives erratic velocities. Though not grain-for-grain, it works very well in the .38 Special and I'm currently loading 4.6 grains and a 158 gr. SWC for ~900 fps from my 4" S&W's.

35W

[dogdoc]

I suspect they(alliant) do not provide handgun data for 20/28 and others due to marketing. They would not sell as many different powders. Versatility would limit overall sales as only a few would do it all for shotgun and pistol

[Prairie Cowboy]

Red Dot, Blue Dot, and Green Dot have all been very popular shotgun powders that have enjoyed use in handguns as well.

However, the ill-fated Polka Dot, introduced in 1952, did poorly, lasting only a year of production. Dealers said: " Well, it didn't exactly dance off the shelves".

It did enjoy limited European popularity however, in Czechoslovakia, Poland, Bohemia, Germany, Elbonia, and Leutonia.

[robertbank]

Red Dot, Blue Dot, and Green Dot have all been very popular shotgun powders that have enjoyed use in handguns as well.

However, the ill-fated Polka Dot, introduced in 1952, did poorly, lasting only a year of production. Dealers said: " Well, it didn't exactly dance off the shelves".

It did enjoy limited European popularity however, in Czechoslovakia, Poland, Bohemia, Germany, Elbonia, and Leutonia.

Only a Calgarian.....Go Esks Go

[El Gato]

I find that Vectan BA 9 is basically a cleaner burning French version of Unique. I call it Le Unique. Grafs sells it.

[gunman5646]

Try Promo(commercial equivelent to Red Dot) but use the Red Dot load data In weight not volume. I found an eight pounder at 3-7 grs per load, I thinkd I'm set.

[stillhere]

8.5 grains of 800x was my absolute favorite for 255 gr 45 Colt. Better than any pistol powder I tried. ****ty metering, and unburned granules, though...if you care about that, and I don't.

[Bobaloo22]

Resurrecting an old thread again. Anyone have any idea if Accurate TCM powder will work for 9mm Luger 115 or 124 grain? It’s for the 22tcm but also .357 mag, 44 mag but I’m new and want to be absolutely sure that it will work. Thanks

[black mamba]

I think it would be way too slow in burn rate to produce anything close to max velocity.

[JAMESGR]

I bought an electronic scale just to weigh 800-X powder. I use a lot of it.
JAMES
JAMESGR

[stillhere]

I bought an electronic scale just to weigh 800-X powder. I use a lot of it.
JAMES
JAMESGR

Me too. Too bad it's now discontinued.

[akraven]

I'm glad this thread has stayed open as I have learned alot from it and look forward to whatever is added. We are getting slightly better but still limited availabilty of powders

[justindad]

True Blue and HS-6 have been available to me and cover a wide range of pistol applications.

[fotog54]

This thread should really be in the "Factory and Surplus Powder" area. I just found it and I've been around here for a few years!

[TXTad]

I'll add that Winchester WinClean 244 is one of the more available and affordable powders right now and is a good substitute for Unique or 231 if you are staying within published loads for cartridges like .38 Special, .357, 9mm, and .45 ACP.