Need a qualified electricians help

[Bad Water Bill]

It has been OVER 55 years since I graduated from aircraft electricians school in N A S Jacksonville so my memory is VERY foggy.

A friend has a 12 X 24 gun-reloading structure he needs wired.

Big problem is the building is 100 yards from the house. There is a 220 service box just inside the attached garage where I could tap into.

I suggested running wire inside of PVC pipe for varmit protection till it reaches the new building.

Everything from A/C thru casting and lighting needs to be serviced.

He has a nice John Deer and it is DEEP sand soil with diggers (moles voles squirrels AND dogs) in the sand.

What type and gauge wire is needed for the project?

2 OLD SWABBIES need help.

[shooter93]

You want to use Electrical conduit Bill....not just PVC pipe. The size of wire depends on the amperage you need at the new building. I assume you mean you have something like a 200 amp panel in one building and want to feed something like 100 amps to the new one. Just ask at any electrical supply store or even one of the box stores. Some of them do have good people in them. They will tell you what to use incase your area has some obscure extra codes besides the NEC. If it's getting inspected you'll also need to know how deep is required there and they probably want "sand" over the wire and then marker tape 12 inches down. We ned sand here in some areas regardsless of using conduit. If it's not being inspected and your dirt is not rocky you could just backfill but the marker tape is still a good idea.

[Johnch]

As for the wire
Copper is a much better choice , but more cost compaired to ALumin

If the box in the house is big enough ( amp wise )
I would put at least 60 amp to the building
Putting a Breaker box in the building

If you go 60 AMP , For that distance #4 copper would be the proper size to deal with line loss
You would need 2 #4 wires for the "Hots" , a #6 for the netrual and a #8 for the ground
The ground wire is a good idea
But can be not run and put in a 8' ground stake ( 2 - 10' apart is even better ) next to the building

1 1/4" PVC conduit would be big enough
But at least localy 2" pvc conduit is almost the same price
Many time we ran 2" to make it easyer

Lube the wire a bunch when pulling it


Oh BTW putting in Phone and cable for the tv is nice to do at the same time
And I normaly sujest a 3/4" or 1" water line if you might ever think about needing it (4' away from the electrail line)

John


While running the conduit

[Bad Water Bill]

The property is in Indiana farmland. The soil is deep lake bottom sand with the water table about 30 feet below the surface.

Conduit rusts and LEAKS at each connection EVENTUALLY.

I buried P V C from my house to the garage over 30 years ago and the inside is still dry.

If We run 220 volts to the building then take one leg for the casting pot A/C and the other leg for lights and hand tools what fuse/breaker should be used. To long out of school to remember all of this.

Every one has cell phones and don't need no stinkin T V while casting and/or reloading. To distracting and just ruins the peace and quiet of a rural area.

[oneokie]

Suggest installing a box with a main breaker so that the services in the building can be serviced without having to go back and forth to the garage.

Breaker for the AC depends on size. 30 amp minimum. Go with a 220 unit, uses less juice.
For the casting pot-20 amp.
For lighting and recepticals-several 10 and 15 amp.
And place the lighting on 2 separate circuits.

[Dale in Louisiana]

I concur with Johnch above for a sixty amp service. Buy a panel with a main breaker so you can shut the building supply off easily. Use branch breakers, a double for 240-volt tools, a single for 120-volt circuits. Use a separate circuit for the lights. Use a circuit breaker for the receptacles. You probably want several circuits for receptacles, dedicated circuits for fixed tools like air compressor, drill press, saws, etc., and at least one for utility receptacles.

Use conduit, PVC for the long run, steel for where it comes out of the ground at each end. That's for physical protection for the cable. if you use wire rated for wet environments (and you should) then it matters not if the wire goes under water as long as the connections stay dry. Conduit is not about keeping wire dry, it's about protection from mechanical damage. You can use direct burial cable instead of the long run of conduit, but again, where the cable comes out of the ground, it needs to be in conduit. Either way, you bury at at least 18".

If this is the least bit confusing, get a local guy whom you trust to work with you. 120/240 circuits kill quite easily and there are a few things that need to be properly addressed that make a difference between a safe and reliable system and one that might kill or start a fire.

be careful

dale in Louisiana.
(electrical specialist for a five-state region of interstate pipeline)

[dragon813gt]

Breaker for the AC depends on size. 30 amp minimum.

I'm not sure if the OP is talking about a window unit, split system or ductless split. But for any one of them 30 amps is really large. That's typically what a four ton condensor takes. The ductless splits are 20 amps max for the most part. Any AC equipment will have a breaker size listed on it's label. Use the one that's listed. None of is can tell you what size because we don't know what piece of equipment is going in.

[DLCTEX]

I run direct burial wire in PVC conduit to protect it from moles and gophers. I've had to replace too many services that were chewed by the little beasts. I would run #2 aluminum for that distance, cheaper than copper and fine in conduit. The larger size will help prevent voltage drop and the additional cost is minimal. Use dielectric grease on connections with aluminum. Same advice I gave a customer yesterday.

[rush1886]

Some good advice in the previous posts. I'd just like to clarify one point: use at least Schedule 40, gray, APPROVED FOR ELECTRICAL purposes, pvc piping. DO NOT USE the more common, and less expensive, white pvc. The white stuff is approved for plumbing, NOT electrical. Don't mean to talk down to anybody, but have seen it tried. It will not pass inspection.
Also, if you use aluminum wire, be sure to use an approved antioxidant compound, on the terminations.

[HATCH]

My 20x20 shop has a 100 amp feed. My house has a 200 amp feed.
I ran 3 inch gray PVC from the edge of he house to the edge of the shop.
I ran 3 conductor 2 ga with ground.
I pulled a pull string with the wire.
That was 5 years ago.
Last year I pulled in coax and cat 5.
I have cable tv in my shop and wireless Internet.
The cat 5 was for phone but I run a cordless out there.
The pipe is still dry.

I have 18 outlets. 6 on each wall with a gfi at the start of each wall.
Each wall has a 20 amp breaker.
I have a twist-lock 4 conductor plug for my mc on a 15 amp breaker.
My MC uses 240 for the pot and the fan and 120 for the control circuit.

Put the pipe at least 24 inches down. I can't remember if code here was 24 or 30 inch down to the top of the pipe.

[Mal Paso]

With Aluminum you need to increase the wire size, the connections need special grease, and the connections need to be torqued every few years because they loosen. I don't go there unless I have to.

Reduced size Neutrals aren't legal any more or desirable for 120V loads.

Window Air Conditioner? 40 Amps should be plenty. 4 ga Stranded Copper Wire will keep you under 5% voltage drop at 80 % capacity (I have a calculator and ran your numbers). 1 to 1 1/4 inch PVC Conduit and you can buy glue on Sweeps (90s). 3 wires and a local ground rod and bond the Neutral to the ground at the panel. Find a 60- 100 Amp Main Lug Panel (no main breaker) and back feed a 40 amp plug on breaker for your Main.

Unless you already have 14 gauge romex wire use 12 gauge and wire everything with 20 amp circuits. 15 amp circuits won't save you anything if you have to buy another roll of wire.

[rush1886]

One more quick point: if running data/comm/catv wires as well, use a seperate, additional conduit. NEC prohibits power and low voltage wires in the same raceway, not to mention the static and interference you'll get on your data/comm.

As per Mal Paso's suggestion for back feeding a breaker-said breaker must be UL rated for the purpose and must be mechanically fixed to the panel it is protecting. Read screwed down.

Unfortunately, local codes nearly always supercede national codes, so Dale in Louisiana's suggestion of finding a local to bounce ideas off of is a very good idea. If you "two old swabbies" want to do your own labor, a sixpack will get you a hell of a lot of "consulting".

Should you attempt any or all of the above without a permit or inspection, you're on yer own!

[MT Gianni]

The property is in Indiana farmland. The soil is deep lake bottom sand with the water table about 30 feet below the surface.

Conduit rusts and LEAKS at each connection EVENTUALLY.

I buried P V C from my house to the garage over 30 years ago and the inside is still dry.

If We run 220 volts to the building then take one leg for the casting pot A/C and the other leg for lights and hand tools what fuse/breaker should be used. To long out of school to remember all of this.

Every one has cell phones and don't need no stinkin T V while casting and/or reloading. To distracting and just ruins the peace and quiet of a rural area.

Bill what John is saying is that there is PVC rated water line and PVC rated Elec conduit. They are not the same though they use the same glue.

[Gliden07]

As for the wire
Copper is a much better choice , but more cost compaired to ALumin

If the box in the house is big enough ( amp wise )
I would put at least 60 amp to the building
Putting a Breaker box in the building

If you go 60 AMP , For that distance #4 copper would be the proper size to deal with line loss
You would need 2 #4 wires for the "Hots" , a #6 for the netrual and a #8 for the ground
The ground wire is a good idea
But can be not run and put in a 8' ground stake ( 2 - 10' apart is even better ) next to the building

1 1/4" PVC conduit would be big enough
But at least localy 2" pvc conduit is almost the same price
Many time we ran 2" to make it easyer

Lube the wire a bunch when pulling it


Oh BTW putting in Phone and cable for the tv is nice to do at the same time
And I normaly sujest a 3/4" or 1" water line if you might ever think about needing it (4' away from the electrail line)

John


While running the conduit

Good advice!! The only thing I would add is you need to identify how large the "Service Box" is or how many Amps it is rated for. If its less than the 60 Amps suggested obviously you would have to decrease the current to the new building! Conversely if it is larger than the 60A suggested you could increase the size of the new "Sub Panel" in the new building (you would have to adjust wire and pipe sizes accordingly). Definitely put it in PVC and do run the phone, Cable and water pipes too while the ditch is open!! If in an area that freezes consider putting "expansion" joints in for frost heaves (these prevent pulling the pipe off the walls). And when you put the electrical panel in the new building make sure you add a couple extra spaces in it for expansion!

[FLINTNFIRE]

I ran pvc conduit and as I remember I used schedule 40 underground and was required to use schedule 80 above ground , to protect it with the thicker walled pipe , and yes the gray electrical conduit .

[lylejb]

A few years back, I did something like that for my shop. Copper IS a better wire, but was WAY too expensive for the run to the shop.

John is right, #4 copper would be great, but 100yds of it would likely cost $1000. I couldn't do that.

What I did was #2 aluminium. It's about $1 a foot for triplex ( all 3 wires wrapped together). #2 AL is rated (nec) for 90 amps, and is permissable for 100 amp residential.

Even with the loss for your long run, this should be more than you need, and way less expensive than even smaller copper. It's available by the foot at home depot.

I then used one of home depot's "value pack" breaker boxes. Made by square D it includes a 100A main breaker installed, five 20A single pole breakers for 110 circuits, and more space that I'll ever need. For $53

breaker box:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/100197589?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051&N=5yc1vZbm2wZ684&R=100197589

Wire, this is for the whole roll, my local home depot cuts this by the foot.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202304634?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051&N=5yc1vZc578&R=202304634

I did drive a ground rod at the building.

Strange as it may seem, It actually cost less to go bigger that I actually needed. I also like the fact that I can easily add anything I'll ever need without worrying about it being too much.

[phonejack]

Can't help with problem, but, I went thru AE school in JAX in '67 (I wore a pickle suit) . Recently, I learned that the brig is no longer next to the EM club. Heh,heh

[Bad Water Bill]

I goofed.

[Teddy (punchie)]

HI Bill

At 300 ft. your going to have some voltage drop. Need to check voltage first. If you are or have 220 or higher you should be okay. Most all items made for the US have an UL voltage rating of 10% higher or lower.

Next you need to get the load. If you have 30 for A/C , 15 lights, 20 for running equipment and maybe an other 20 just for utility . Being that there is going to be more then 2 circuits, with a total of give or take 85 Amps . I would use a 100 Amp sub panel, can even be an old fuze box (if using AL wire make sure it will fit the lugs) (nothing wrong with fuses just a pain to replace when they blow), but easier to use breakers. The feed breaker , fuse should be low as possible to do its job to protect the branch circuit, say 75 Amp. double pole breaker or fuse (80% of the panel being feed is the guide). Max being 100 Amps.

Now the feeder. Up to you ??? In or out of PVC , cost , soil , environment ( where it can be damage?? ) . Me I would USE direct burial cable. Put it down 4 ' and forget it. Only place that you should worry is where it come out of the ground, use PVC to get it to 30-36 inches into the ground. Back-fill with nice loose soil or sand, no stones near the cable. If you damage cable, shrink wrap it , a heat shrink wrap.

You can ask where you get the wire(cable) about size. I think number 2/O AL..... the Copper # 2 (Cu) going to cost a bunch.

Teddy

[Lloyd Smale]

For our codes up here youd need either #4 copper or 1/0 aluminum. As was said a 300 ft of triple #4 copper is going to cost a small fortune and believe me bill they dont give away electrical rated 2 inch pvc either. . theres nothing wront with aluminum. I was a lineman for 30 years and EVERY service we installed underground to homes was aluminum. Just make sure you use nolox on the connections and get them good and tight and you wont be back in the box. Also you cant just come off your existing box in the house. You would need to install a box to split the line and feed your existing box and the new one out of that box. then i dont know your code but here our local code says at least a 100 amp pannel has to be installed for any out building. As you can see the dollars are adding up. Id consider another route if i were you. Contact you local utility and ask them how much it would cost for them to run another service to the building with a meter on it. I dont know how the price would compare but will say this. When i first started the customer had to provide a trench when we installed a new underground service. we ran into so many that werent right and had to be redone which caused us to waste a trip out there that our companys policy changed. You still had the option to dig your own but even if you did it yourself you didnt save a penny. Also i dont know about around you buy just finding 1/0 alum or #4 copper triplex around here is tough. About the only way to get it is to go to an electrical supply company and order it. Another nice thing about letting your utility company install it is its then there wire. If it goes bad 10 years from now they have the equiptment to find the bad spot and spice it or the wire on hand to replace it. If you put it in yourself and it goes bad some day it will be impossible for you to find the fault and repair it and youll be out the cost and work for replacing it all.

Now ill say this too. IF YOU are NOT going to get inspected and are going to do it yourself you can save some money. First you dont NEED wire that big. In all reality for what your doing #4 aluminum will carry the load. You also dont NEED electrical rated pvc. You can direct bury your wire. If you dont have rocks, burry it at least 2 ft down and dont nick it will installing it, it will probably last a 100 years direct buried and if you are in a rock area regular old pvc works just fine. Ive never in over 30 years of doing this saw where critters chewed underground wires. Also direct buried wires have a higher ampacity rating then wires in pvc because the ground keeps the wires cooler. Most damage is from instalation and from dig ins. Keep in mind though that a small nick now in the wire will eventually be a fault. You could also no doubt get away with a 50 amp panel for what your doing and save a few bucks if your only using a window ac unit. you can also get away easily with only one ground rod.

[oldarkie]

lloyds right on bill,#4 al will do the job i would use 2 in. pvc,ive seen too much wire go bad in too short of a time. that way not all the work would not be wasted. just my $.02.

[Bad Water Bill]

And people wonder why I say this site is the BEST EVER.

I appreciate each and every answer posted and thank everyone for helping A DIRTY OLD MAN stay out of trouble.

Now if it will only warm up and stop raining I just might GIT ER DUN. :bigsmyl2:

Thanks a lot everyone.