Model 1911 and 1911A1 pistol calibers

[jlchucker]

I got an email from someone the other day saying he wanted a 1911 in 38 Special caliber. I'm aware that the 1911 is a rimless design, and that there's been available 1911's in 38 Super, but not 38 Special. When I asked for clarification, he insisted that they made them in 38 Special. I'd never heard of that option before. I've searched through some references, and didn't find anything other than calibers that I'd already heard of. I can't wrap my head around how a 1911 in 38 special would function. This person seems to think that if he buys one of those Argentine copies, he can get it rebarrelled for 38 Special. I would expect that such a conversion, if at all possible, would involve everything from the grips and magazine to the muzzle, and might still not be possible. Have any of you guys heard of a 1911 in 38 special, either manufactured as such or converted? I suspect that the person who mentioned it to me is confused at best, or at worst believes something that some magazine-reader's been telling him. :veryconfu

[rintinglen]

Colt made a 1911 target gun that shot 38 Special Wadcutters back in the 60's as a counter to the S&W M-52. IIRC, they were called National Match, they had 5 shot magazines and Eliason Sights and Sold for twice what a stock Government Model went for. I haven't seen one in 20+ years, but it is on my bucket list to get one some day.

Converting an Argentine while perhaps not impossible, would cost so much that you'd be out the price of a clean used car. Unless your buddy is a dedicated Bullseye Shooter, he doesn't want a 38 Special 1911.

[jp99]

Yes I do believe Colt did make one. Also now Coonan makes theirs in not only .357 magnum again but also in .41 and .44 magnum versions. I don't think they cycle the special versions of any of the calibers very well though. They however run full profile bullets and not only wadcutters.

Regards,

JP99

[Agent1187]

I remembered seeing one on GB when I was looking not too long ago, and a quick glance over there just now showed that there is both a Colt in 38 special and the Coonan 357 available. I'd be really curious as to see how differently they are set up to work a rimmed cartridge.

[GSaltzman]

Jim Clark of Clark's Custom Guns used to build em back in the day. I bet Jim Clark Jr can still build em. They are located in North Louisiana.

[BruceB]

Before the advent of the S&W Model 52 (and the Colt .38 Special Gold Cup), there was a substantial cottage industry involved in converting .38 Super 1911 pistols to .38 Special. This market was sufficiently large to inspire Colt to offer "kits" to gunsmiths for use in fabricating such custom pistols.

All this was to allow competitors to fire the .38 Special cartridge in the center-fire stage of the NRA Bullseye course; up to the time that reliable .38 Special autos became available from custom 'smiths, shooters either used their .45 ACPs in the center-fire stage or fired a .38 revolver. Both of these alternatives carried penalties for the shooter, either in time or in recoil/noise.

The Colt .38 Special pistol was not nearly as successful as the M52 and it eventually was dropped. It was essentially a BLOWBACK design, unlocked when firing except for a coarsely-threaded chamber which theoretically slowed the opening of the slide. This system actually gave a rather severe recoil for the power of the .38 wadcutter cartridge , and shooters disliked the way the gun behaved. I know that *I* certainly disliked it.

[nagantguy]

i agree with most of what has been said here so far, I know who cares if I agree right? The way I understood it the .38 special 1911 was tried and it died it just a curiosity now. however someone is making a 1911 that fires .357 mag. cant remember who but the reviews in the shooting rags say its the real deal.

[km101]

Yes, there was a 1911 in .38 Spl. but the two guns that I had the opportunity to shoot back in the late '60-early '70's, neither fed very reliably. This was largely due to the rimmed cartridge and how it fit into the magazine. You had to load the mags very carefully to prevent jams and that didn't always work.

Not a good solution to the problem, and the guns were fantastically expensive at the time. I'm sure that they still are because of the relative rarity, but IMO not worth the money or the hassle.

[jlchucker]

Wow! Thanks, guys. This is all something I didn't know, but I figured some of my fellow Cast Boolit people would be aware of it if it was factual. I think this guy would have to search long and hard for a 1911 in 38 special. If it were me I wouldn't even consider it. suspected all along that converting an Argentine would be a machinist/gunsmith's nightmare and probably wouldn't feed good anyhow. I really wondered where the person that told me about a 38 special 1911 got his information--I'd never heard of such a thing myself. Ever since I joined this website a few years ago I always considered it to be my best source for gun info--and you've all confirmed my suspicions. Thanks, everyone.

[khmer6]

I think llama made one as well

[gwpercle]

Jim Clark with Clark's Custom guns built 38 specials that were reliable. These only fired the full wadcutter target loads, very specialized target pistols. His son Jim Clark , Jr. is with the business and could probably build you one. Call them at (318) 949-9884...they don't like e-mails and would prefer to speak to you about such projects in person....call them

Gary

[wv109323]

I know that Jim Clark Jr. built a .38 Special not too many years ago. It was very expensive. ($2400.00 to $2600.00 IIRC) . There is just no reason to spend that kind of money. The only real application for the pistol was NRA Bullseye. Magazine length limits you to wadcutter bullets. Magazines are expensive and nearly non- existent. Colt called their pistol the Mid-Range Match.
As far as building one you would be better off to start with a .38 Super or 9mm. The breech face could be milled out for the . 38 Spec. instead of welding up and machining a .45 ACP slide.

[ReloaderFred]

To cure the feeding problem with the .38 Special cases in the converted 1911's, they came up with the .38 AMU (Army Marksmanship Unit). This was simply a .38 Special case with a .38 Super rim and extractor groove. I still have some of the original cases and might even have one of the original boxes for the ammunition.

A couple of years ago I had fun with a .38 AMU case at the SHOT Show, showing it to Winchester, Remington and Federal reps. None of them had ever seen one, and there were all kinds of theories on what it was, even though it was clearly marked ".38 R-P" on the headstamp. Only Paul Nowack at Winchester guessed correctly. The next year I took several cases and one of the boxes and gave them some for samples of what they used to make.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[jlchucker]

The more I read responses to this thread the more I'm convinced that for a 1911 model pistol, 45 ACP is not only what the gun was invented for, history shows that it's really the most logical choice. IMO others can tinker with rimmed calibers in rimless designs, but the experience of most of you guys tells me it's barely, if at all, worth it. I've got a very few revolvers, in standard revolver calibers, that I use for revolver stuff. I've also got one 1911 in 45 ACP, for 45 ACP stuff. My revolvers get a heck of a lot more use because when I shoot them I don't have to search all over the planet for ejected brass to reload. My friend can, if he wants, fool around spending money on a 38 special auto pistol--1911 or not. Then it appears that we can discuss his jamming problems later over a few beverages after an afternoon at the range. Again. This thread has been very enlightening to me, and I'll pass it along.

[Green Frog]

What Fred sed... :D If your friend really wants to engage in an exercise in futility, he should have a custom 38 AMU gun built and then buy up enough of the collectible brass to shoot it. Then he should crawl around in the grass finding his rare and valuable brass so it can be reloaded. A 1911 in 38 caliber looks good on paper, but it really doesn't translate that well to real life applications. JMHO, YMMV! ;)

Froggie

[pietro]

.

FWIW, Factory chamberings for the Colt Gov't Model have numbered 12, at one time or another:

.22LR (1929)
.30 Luger/7.65 Parabellum (ca.1969)
9mm Luger / 9mm Parabellum / 9x19mm (1949)
9x23mm (1996)
.38AMU (ca.1966)
.38 Super +P (1929)
9mm Steyr (ca.1969)
.38 S&W Special (1960, National Match Model, flush wadcutters only)
.40S&W (1990)
10mm Auto (mod-1980's)
.455 Webley SL Mk1 (1915)
.45ACP


Here's a 1960-71 NM in .38 Special

http://gastatic.com/UserImages/3091/979368811/pop_wm_3808888.jpg
.

[remy3424]

Not just a...a mint one!! Thanks for the show and tell. Wealth of info here.

[BruceB]

With regard to the reliability issue of rimmed brass in the semi-auto pistols, I must say this:

S&W GOT IT RIGHT!

We have a pair of M52-1 pistols which we bought around 1970. They are, of course, fitted for the flush-seated rimmed .38 Special wadcutter cartridge.

Without a shred of doubt, these 52s are the most stone-reliable auto pistols I have EVER seen or used, and believe me that's a large sample over fifty-odd years.

The guns are tightly fitted, as behooves target-grade guns built for 50-yard shooting at a 3.39" ten-ring. Fouling can build up and impede function.

HOWEVER: When properly prepared (CLEAN!) for a 90-round NRA Bullseye match, the guns can be relied on to fire reliably and accurately for the entire match. In fact, both of them are utterly reliable for about 300 cast-bullet rounds before starting to become sluggish.

Both of our 52s have passed the 140,000-round mark, and show no signs of wearing out or loosening. They are surely among our favorite guns of our long shooting careers.

So... in a properly designed and manufactured pistol, the rimmed cases pose no problems at all.

[MtGun44]

No idea about the son, but the Clark the father was a thief. Stole my and other
patented gun parts and made and sold them himself. Ignored letters from attorneys
and he knew it cost too much to sue, so he just stole ideas as his standard
business practice.

Bill

[khmer6]

140k and still tight! That's a good girl

[C.F.Plinker]

Since we are talking about Model 52s, I will offer this one.

67227

AMT Model M52-SS

Does anyone know how many of these were made? I couldn't find them listed in my Blue Book and when I called AMT with a question about it, the lady on the phone said that as far as she knew they had never made a Model 52.

[Combat Diver]

There is a current article in this months American Rifleman that lists 10 different calibers availble from Colt for the 1911. You can also add the .45 Super,.460 Rowland, and 38/45 Clark. The last one is a 45 ACP case necked down to .358/.355".

Side note I used to own two Coonan Model B .357 Autos. Very realiable in .357 but would need a lighter recoil spring if shooting a standard .38 SPL case. They had no problems feeding full wadcutter ammo either.

CD