Hunting With 44 Magnum Casr Bullets With Copper Gascheck

[trapper300RUM]

Can i load up full power loads in my 44 Magnum if the cast bullets are gaschecked or do i have to keep them at normal cast velocites because of leading the bore

[leftiye]

Full house cast boolit loads have always been used. Anything that is shot with jacketed will produce lower pressure with cast and therefore be safe if the parent load was safe. That being said, IDIOCY will get you killed, don't overdo anything. 1500 fps Lyman 429244 loads (gas checked) with 24.0 grains of H110 were the standard back in the 70s. This was true of all magnum pistol loads until the .445 supermag, and the .454 came on the scene. These will drive heavy boolits fast enough to cause probems with cast. Though it may still be possible to drive cast that fast if the reloader does his part.

[trapper300RUM]

I am going to have them @ 1,200 f.p.s. & it's not the max load

[x101airborne]

That is nice and safe. For hunting, you dont have to run the upper limits and especially if you are using a model 29 or a light, short barrel blackhawk, mild loads can be especially beneficial. I have only shot about 4 or 5 hogs with my redhawk and all have been with mild loads. I have yet to recover a boolit.

[429421Cowboy]

^^^^ What he said ^^^ My .44 hunting load is 9.5 gr of Unique pushing a 250 Keith going about 1000fps and it will still shoot through a whitetail at any angle without beating me or the gun up too bad. I could load almost twice as much 2400 or more of H110 to gain a couple hundered fps, but it will likely give the same results.

Boolit fit to your bore will have more to do with preventing leading than anything else, there are plenty of guys on here that can show great results with seemingly too soft plainbase boolits that are sized correctly.
I have shot WFN gaschecked boolits going 1400fps and still had no issues with leading, i think you should be just fine at 1200 with your setup!

[white eagle]

once you get further into cast boolit use you will understand
why cast is prefered to ALLothers

[Blammer]

I shoot plain base boolits in my 44mag at 1300fps no leading.

Fit is KING, that is what will cause most leading issues.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/2012%20Deer/DSCN8825.jpg

[deep creek]

I slugged my .44 blackhawk and had lbt make me a double cavity mould with w.w. they drop at 320 grns.loaded with 21.5 grns of 296 or h110 the have ruined a few bears day.havent recovered a boolit.same with deer and a few elk. Its an accurate two handed load.

[waksupi]

First thing to do, is forget 90% of what you know about loading jacketed bullets. Second thing to do, is forget you ever heard the word magnum. Cast boolits pretty much eliminate that need. Always remember, jacketed bullets are trying to copy what lead boolits have ALWAYS done well.

[Iowa Fox]

First thing to do, is forget 90% of what you know about loading jacketed bullets. Second thing to do, is forget you ever heard the word magnum. Cast boolits pretty much eliminate that need. Always remember, jacketed bullets are trying to copy what lead boolits have ALWAYS done well.

Truer words never spoken.

[Spokerider]

I slugged my .44 blackhawk and had lbt make me a double cavity mould with w.w. they drop at 320 grns.loaded with 21.5 grns of 296 or h110 the have ruined a few bears day.havent recovered a boolit.same with deer and a few elk. Its an accurate two handed load.






deep creek,
I'd like to hear more on taking the bears and the performance of the 320gr boolits on them.
Big bears? or your average 200-300lb black bears? Were they one shot kills? Close range shots or 100m and further?
What size meplat does the boolit have?

I shoot 330gr air cooled WW GC boolits from my 12" 44 mag barrel encore over a good dose of Lilgun, and the load chrono's at 1459fps. I have loaded this specifically for black bear, but have not shot one to date with it.

It's not too often I hear of guys actually taking bears with the 44 mag, thus my interest.

[deep creek]

Spokerider the boolit is veral smiths 300 grn wfn mould drops at 320 with ww you can see his boolits at LBTtechnology deepcreek

[flipajig]

The 44 mag has taken every north American big game animal.
With eather J word or cast I personly have taken deer and pigs with mine with no hesitation. The Boolit I settled on was a 429244GC it is a WC desine that will cycle through a leaver gun my SBH and TC tender likes it also. All three like 19.5 grn of 2400 the BH is running 1200 rpm,the TC 1400 rpm, and the Winchester 1600 rpm. As for penetration I am yet to recover a Boolit I have also shot through a 10 to 12 inch Aspen tree again no Boolit recovery.

[44man]

deep creek,
I'd like to hear more on taking the bears and the performance of the 320gr boolits on them.
Big bears? or your average 200-300lb black bears? Were they one shot kills? Close range shots or 100m and further?
What size meplat does the boolit have?

I shoot 330gr air cooled WW GC boolits from my 12" 44 mag barrel encore over a good dose of Lilgun, and the load chrono's at 1459fps. I have loaded this specifically for black bear, but have not shot one to date with it.

It's not too often I hear of guys actually taking bears with the 44 mag, thus my interest.
Several things here. Stop using Lil'Gun, it can damage your gun. Too hot.
Slow the boolit to around 1300 fps or where it is accurate ONLY. FASTER CAN BE WORSE for hunting.
You can water drop for the .44 for better accuracy. No expansion needed unless you shoot too fast or slow.
Deep Creek uses my exact same load with a 320 gr boolit but my 330 gr only needs 21 gr of 296. The Lee 310 gr loves 21.5 gr. I use a Fed 150 primer for all loads.
I might have a few tons of deer shot with the .44 and it is still the best so a bear should also hate the caliber.
The most important thing is to not look for the highest velocity, an animal does not have a chronograph on it's side before it decides to die.
Nothing will stop a 320 gr boolit, mine run 1316 fps, slower and faster will open groups. Bottom line is accuracy first.
I suppose the thing that bothers me most is when a guy says he gets 1400 to 1500 fps and thinks it is better. First you need a softer boolit and second you lose accuracy.
A good meplat like a WLN or WFN is best. Don't worry about a WFN, I shoot them to 500 meters with accuracy. A good Keith like the 429421 has a good meplat.
A gas check is not needed but many good boolit designs just have them. They were designed for a softer boolit. A harder PB at the right velocity works fine.
You can shoot a PB to a very high velocity but that is not the answer for hunting, it is boolit work inside the animal, not velocity or muzzle energy.
Velocity changes means an alloy change and even boolit weight with caliber can need an alloy change.
It all changes with the size of the animal so a buf needs different then a deer or black bear.
The .44 with a hard, heavy boolit with accuracy has a wide range. It is much wider then larger and faster calibers. It might be the best.

[Spokerider]

Thanks for your thoughts.

Lil'gun is not going to burn out my encore barrel. It gets no more warm to touch than when I shoot H110.......and if in 20 years you prove to be right, I'll just go buy another one!

1459fps is the most accurate velocity for my gun with my boolits, my powder and my reloading technique, and is why I have chosen that load for hunting.

I don't consider deer and bear to be in the same ballpark when it comes to killing them, especially when a particularly large bear, either annoyed / predatory, or in a frantic frenzy trying to kill one of my dogs is only a few meters from me.

[Paul D. Heppner]

Spokerider, 44Man isn't refering to temperature. He is refering to pressure. Lilgun in my opinion, and 44Man's too, is prone to erratic pressure spikes. I have found this in 45 Colt, 454, and 44 magnum.

[Blammer]

I think 44man is referring to temperature.

I have some lil gun powder and in my pistol after a cylendar full, it is HOT, way to hot to touch. I'm using middle of the road loads too.


maybe 44man could expound on it for us

[Larry Gibson]

The GC'd cast bullet can do things at true magnum handgun velocities that the PB'd hard cast cast bullet can't......i.e. it most often kills quicker. That may not be important to some but to many it is. It can easily be done with no leading. The choice is yours.

Larry Gibson

[x101airborne]

The GC'd cast bullet can do things at true magnum handgun velocities that the PB'd hard cast cast bullet can't......i.e. it most often kills quicker. That may not be important to some but to many it is. It can easily be done with no leading. The choice is yours.

Larry Gibson

Hi Larry.
I would like you to expand on this a little if you would. I know we have all gone over and over this, but for some (myself included) this is still a little fuzzy and confusing. I know terminal ballistics are governed by steadfast rules of physics, but does bullet shape mean more to shock on game and terminal performance, or does speed mitigate this rule somewhat?
I am sorry to hijack a thread, but I only ask because you have a lot of knowledge from actual testing and years of experience. I have very little experience with anything other than a chronograph. And if I can learn something, I would like to.

[Whiterabbit]

OP,

a gas check is easy insurance if you don't want to agonize over lube choice, alloy uniformity, etc etc etc. In other words, as long as you have bullet fit down (this is mandatory), then you can be pretty lazy about alloy (if it melts, cast it), use any popular lube, snap a gas check on and you'll more than likely have zero issue.

I say this without 44m experience, this is my experience with the 460S&W.

In short, in my experience only:
shooting plain base, alloy matters.
shooting plain base, lube matters.
shooting gas checked, these things matter less.

[deep creek]

My 320grn cast from w.w. ,water dropped lubed with lbt blue lube bullets on top of 21.5 grns of 296 are very accurate and are about all i want to shot in a tense situation.That being time off target from recoil to back on target. this load i have used in confrontations with various and sundry bears you get pass throughs,bullets are big enough to cause nasty wound channels and result in a dead bear! all the talk and speculation dont meam spit ,results speak the loudest. im confident in my vload and that means every thing.

[quilbilly]

If you were to do the "wet phone book" terminal ballistic test with your boolit at an mv of 1200 and for good measure put a 1/4 piece of plywood 1" inside the front to simulate clipping a bone, I suspect you will get at least 16" of penetration at 40 yards. With that evidence in hand you can be assured your boolit will handily take down anything on this continent out to 75 yards and deer twice that far or more if your eyes are better than mine.

[Paul D. Heppner]

310 with 21.5 of H110 at 45 yards or so worked for me.
67312

[Area Man]

I suppose the thing that bothers me most is when a guy says he gets 1400 to 1500 fps and thinks it is better. First you need a softer boolit and second you lose accuracy

Am I understanding correctly: SOFTER bullets are better for higher velocity loads? I had thought it was the other way around.

[waksupi]

Am I understanding correctly: SOFTER bullets are better for higher velocity loads? I had thought it was the other way around.

When speaking of handguns, all of them are low velocity. They have very low demands on hardness, when everything is done correctly. I can not think of any standard handgun that would need a hardness of more than 12 Bn.

[Area Man]

When speaking of handguns, all of them are low velocity. They have very low demands on hardness, when everything is done correctly. I can not think of any standard handgun that would need a hardness of more than 12 Bn.

So COWW cured for two weeks or quenched is a good alloy for most North American hunting situations including deer and Texas pigs?

[Adam10mm]

Yes. That's correct.

[Larry Gibson]

Am I understanding correctly: SOFTER bullets are better for higher velocity loads? I had thought it was the other way around.

The GC allows a softer, malleable alloy for better expansion to be used at magnum level velocities with excellent accuracy. The same alloy can not be used with a PB'd cast bullet at the same level of velocity with the same accuracy.....thus PB'd cast bullets used for such are "hard cast" to hold up under the load.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

So COWW cured for two weeks or quenched is a good alloy for most North American hunting situations including deer and Texas pigs?

With a GC'd bullet you can add 2% tin to the COWWs and then add 100% lead to that for a 50/50% mix and maintain excellent accuracy up through 1400+ fps. That alloy will give much better expansion and terminal performance on said deer and pigs.....even in Texas.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

I think 44man is referring to temperature.

I have some lil gun powder and in my pistol after a cylendar full, it is HOT, way to hot to touch. I'm using middle of the road loads too.


maybe 44man could expound on it for us
Yes HEAT. 12 rounds through a .357 and we could not touch the gun. It is so hot from the lack of deterrent it will erode steel. Even Freedom will drop your warranty if you use it. It could also suffer from pressure spikes. Heat could cause that.
Larry has a point about gas checks. If you use a softer alloy because your velocity and caliber needs it, the GC is also needed. It is because it stops base skid. Nothing else it does---or should I say it does nothing else.
But the .44 does not need anything special, just boolit weight and a hard boolit at the right velocity. Don't fool with a 320 gr at 800 fps or 1500 fps. Neither will shoot good enough to hunt with.
Now my large .500 JRH needs some expansion with the 440 gr boolit at 1350 fps. It is another hole punch. I use a PB so the best thing to do is soften the nose some without losing the hard base. If I softened the whole boolit I would need a GC.
A gas check is the best thing ever when you need it but you can get around spending the money.
Alloy choice is what determines if you need a GC.
Any time you get soft enough to skid rifling, you need the skid stop of the GC but if you get too soft or fast you will exceed what it does. There is one point where a GC will spin on the boolit and still seal, you are at the limit. The soft boolit might have skidded too much already and leaded the bore so a recovered boolit will also show a leaded GC. They were not made to scrape lead. The GC can run over leading.

[44man]

Am I understanding correctly: SOFTER bullets are better for higher velocity loads? I had thought it was the other way around.
Yes and also much slower. There is a sweet spot with the .44 where hard works so good I will not vary from it. Regulate your boolit. You will get to where you NEED a GC.
Adjust for just the right expansion by seeing what your boolit does to an actual animal, not paper.
Velocity is good as long as you have accuracy and a boolit that is just right.

[44man]

If you were to do the "wet phone book" terminal ballistic test with your boolit at an mv of 1200 and for good measure put a 1/4 piece of plywood 1" inside the front to simulate clipping a bone, I suspect you will get at least 16" of penetration at 40 yards. With that evidence in hand you can be assured your boolit will handily take down anything on this continent out to 75 yards and deer twice that far or more if your eyes are better than mine.
All testing with all kinds of stuff to shoot really proves nothing. The animal is not made from wood or paper. There is more air in lungs with liquid dispersed through them.
My 330 gr .44 will go through 34" of wet phone books but that shows nothing about energy placed in the lungs. Darn sure, you need energy placed, not before or after the deer.

[44man]

I suppose the hardest thing is about what a cast boolit can do or not do. You have weight and velocity and you have distance with velocity changes. Now add animal size and toughness. Now different calibers. Add in boolit hardness and you have a huge mess to figure out.
No easy way out, no fixed answers.
Not like the old days with a pure round ball and BP, just make the ball bigger.

[gunslinger20]

I slugged my .44 blackhawk and had lbt make me a double cavity mould with w.w. they drop at 320 grns.loaded with 21.5 grns of 296 or h110 the have ruined a few bears day.havent recovered a boolit.same with deer and a few elk. Its an accurate two handed load.

What alloy mix are you shooting, do you think 50% 50% ww-pb is too soft for two holes every time?

[Fenring]

Check and stoke 'em up.

I am running a 315gr flat nose, out of straight air cooled clip on W/W's @1500fps and a 275gr cast HP @ 1650fps with no leading. Dip lubed with LLA / turpentine mix 50/50.

Won't ever buy jacketed stuff again.

[GaryN]

I got a half a box of 44 mag. hollow points I bought in the late 70's. I guess some day I will have to find a use for them. I have been shooting cast for a while.

[Larry Gibson]

Let me say it again in reference to softer malleable cast bullets with GCs;

With a GC'd bullet you can add 2% tin to the COWWs and then add 100% lead to that for a 50/50% mix and maintain excellent accuracy up through 1400+ fps. That alloy will give much better expansion and terminal performance on said deer and pigs.....even in Texas.

That applies to a 16-1 lead - tin alloy also. With a 6" barrel 1400 fps with 250 gr cast or 1350 fps with 270 gr cast is easily done while staying within published data and the SAAMI MAP for the 44 Magnum. Longer barrels in revolvers or closed breach SSs give correspondingly higher velocity and performance on game. With a GC'd 270 gr HP cast of those alloys such as Lyman's Devestator you can cast them, load them over H110, zero the handgun or rifle with assurance of accuracy and then go hunting with confidence they will expand and give all the penetration desired. The "wheel" has already been invented, don't get wrapped around the axle "exerimenting" or "testing".....they work as advertised!

Larry Gibson

[Indybear]

My LEE 310 GC+21.5 H110+CCI 350 + carnauba red is significantly more accurate in the 15-20 hardness range in my SRH than it was with ACWW+2% tin and I have used it to kill a boar in Florida. My 240KT+ Keith's load in this same gun is more accurate with a much much softer 8-10 alloy and it is the classic hunting load. If I chased Bambi (and I don't) I think the 250KT would get the call for expansion but for those armor plated hogs its the 310s all the way.

[44man]

My LEE 310 GC+21.5 H110+CCI 350 + carnauba red is significantly more accurate in the 15-20 hardness range in my SRH than it was with ACWW+2% tin and I have used it to kill a boar in Florida. My 240KT+ Keith's load in this same gun is more accurate with a much much softer 8-10 alloy and it is the classic hunting load. If I chased Bambi (and I don't) I think the 250KT would get the call for expansion but for those armor plated hogs its the 310s all the way.
Try the CCI 300 or the Fed 150 to tighten groups.

[44man]

I agree with Larry.
The .44 is just so amazing and can be made to shoot about anything.
All you need is penetration and accuracy to hunt. I will forever go with that and ME and velocity belong in the trash.

[plinky56]

IMO, you don't really need to hunt with full magnum loads. If you shoot a keith style bullet with a meplat of .320 or bigger, all you really need is 1000 fps in order to shoot through a deer. You can shoot cast up to around 1300-1400 fps without gc, as long as they are not 'soft' lead, but around wheel weight bhn or harder, if you really want to. Cool thing with the .44/.45, they have enough punch to pass thru two deer at that speed, but recoil is light to moderate.

About the leading, you can fire lap your bore, after you uniform and insure that your chambers are all equal and the correct size, which will virtually eliminate any leading issue, make your gun more accurate, and get rid of any constriction issue at the threads. I am assuming that you are shooting from a handgun. All these thing are not hard to do, can be done in a day, and work.

[Adam10mm]

All you need is penetration and accuracy to hunt. I will forever go with that and ME and velocity belong in the trash.
Velocity only really shines with trajectory. Faster velocity keeps a flatter trajectory to help with less bullet drop over distance. Nice thing to have if you're literally eyeballing distances of shots on game without a range finder. That's when I like it.

[Shooter6br]

Elmer Keith used 16-1 alloy without GC

[armexman]

Hi and Bye,
Got to go and put a gc on my 300grn 45-WFN since it is flying out at 1200. Not.
A good internet friend and shooter taught me gas checks are not required if you have a wide meplat and sufficient velocity; his name is Veral. Veral Smith to you young ones, From LBT city;)
Mis dos centavos. I will find out this year for sure on a cow elk in unit 181 or 67.

[Rattus58]

Hi and Bye,
Got to go and put a gc on my 300grn 45-WFN since it is flying out at 1200. Not.
A good internet friend and shooter taught me gas checks are not required if you have a wide meplat and sufficient velocity; his name is Veral. Veral Smith to you young ones, From LBT city;)
Mis dos centavos. I will find out this year for sure on a cow elk in unit 181 or 67.With harder lead, which i've not experimented with since my very first muzzleloader bullet, may not need gas checks, but I am thoroughly convinced that Gas Checks absolutely either prevents or cleans up leading as it occurs... with soft pure as you can get it lead.

[enoch59]

Thank you, thank you, thank you one and all for such an education. What a great thread. I'd hang out but I need to go pull some bullets and dump some Lil Gun back into its container.

[41mag]

Thank you, thank you, thank you one and all for such an education. What a great thread.

I don't have the years of experience that some who have posted in this thread have. If you will notice though I did sign up a good while back. Most of my time is spent reading through similar threads as this, and tapping the little tid bits of knowledge back into word documents for later one.

I can also say that since I began pouring my own a couple of years ago, and putting into practice what Larry, 44man, and a few others have been talking about, I have not found much if any need to push the limits with any of my cast loads. In fact I have been playing with my 454, which is what I initially started casting for, in an effort to find a lighter load which gives as good of accuracy as the one I normally hunt with. My standard load uses the Lee 452-300RF which is a GC version almost identical to the 430-310 RF which I also have. The velocity of the load averages 1550fps. The only thing keeping me back is the outstanding accuracy I have gotten since the beginning with that 300gr bullet out to 100yds. My longest kill with is to date is a 130'ish pound sow at 87yds on the trot. It simply rolled her rear over ears literally. I also used it on a finishing shot on a big white tail at about 30yds and rolled him completely over.

I just picked up a PB mold in a VERY similar design only a touch lighter. I am hoping it will allow me to gain back the accuracy I loose when I drop the velocity down with the Lee bullet.

Rest assured these folks KNOW what they are speaking of when it comes to putting lead down the barrel and dropping game with it.

[Ohio Rusty]

I'm a hollowpoint junkie, and I admit it. I use a .429244 .44 boolit in the HP version. Running 50/50 alloy (WW's/Pure) over top of 18.5 grains of 2400, I'm near that 1000 FPS range and the boolit expands nicely from my Contender. Several test boolits from wet newspaper stacks are almost 60 caliber when expanded !! I could even run them at 19.5 grains and that load is everything I need for any Ohio whitetail deer.

Ohio Rusty ><>

Hydrostatic shock doesn't kill deer ...... I DO !!