New to Reloading - question about OAL and crimping Boolets

[mmesa005]

Hello All,

I am new to reloading and still waiting for my equipment to be delivered. I started by reading several loading books (Hornady, Lyman) as well as this on-line book on cast boolits http://www.lasc.us/ArticlesFryxell.htm

I am unclear about setting the OAL and crimping of cast boolits as unlike plated / jacketed bullets, cast boolits have grooves for lubrication and crimping? So say for a .45acp jacketed bullet using X grains of Bullseye powder, the OAL is 2.65, what do I do if a plated bullet has a lubrication groove and not a crimp groove with the bullet set at that length?

[rmatchell]

Welcome to the group.

Just use a taper crimp and have fun shooting them. Also take some pride in making and loading your own boolits. It get fun from here on out.

[mmesa005]

rmatchell,

I appreciate the quick reply! I am still unclear about crimping if after setting the OAL there is a lube groove where the crimp would go? Also, why do cast boolits have crimp grooves?

Thanks!

[rmatchell]

I'm sure somebody will step in here and say for sure, but I have always thought they were more for helping keep the boolit crimped with heavy recoil. For 45acp I load Lyman 452374 and 452460 both of which don't have a crimp groove I just load them to fit my chamber or mag.

[jblee10]

If you are using a cast boolit designed for the 45 ACP it will not have a crimp groove or a lube groove at the mouth of the case when set to the correct AOL. Also, the rimless auto pistol cartridges (45 ACP) headspace off of the mouth of the case, so they should only be taper crimped. Your 45 ACP dies should do this.
I commend you for reading what you can. Keep it up and it will come to you. Congratulations!

[rmatchell]

You came to the right place, the people on the board will be able to help out with most everything. I have yet to have a single problem that has gone without an answer.

[mmesa005]

jblee10, rmatchell,

I appreciate your help! So far as crimping will the .38 /.357 boolits work the same as the .45acp? Also, any favorite moulds for the .38 special / .357?

Thanks again!

[rmatchell]

All depends on what I'm doing, I really like the Lyman 358091 for target shooting. Or the lyman 358242 for plinking.

[mmesa005]

rmatchell,

I will take a look at both moulds! I am anxiously awaiting my reloading equipment!

[fcvan]

First of all, what part of CA, you might have a member near you who can show you the ropes. As far as your reading materials, you are off to a good start. As far as your shooting preferences, different revolvers and pistols like different types of rounds. Yes, there are generic loads that work well in most guns but there are some combinations that work very well in specific platforms.

As far as 45 ACP goes, many shoot well with something approximating the 230 ball load and the 200 SWC Bullseye load. Lots of folks will chime in with their favorites, I am certain of that. .38/.357? You will get the same overwhelming response. Everyone has a favorite first boolit mold for newbies but don't fool yourself. You may intend to get that 'one' mold and end up an avid collector :)

There are lots of 'shortcuts' to setting up dies and such and those somewhat depend on the dies you have purchased. What kinds of weapons are you loading for? What types of loads are you wanting to shoot? Target loads? Hunting loads? These kinds of details will be helpful for those here who would gladly lend their expertise. Good luck and enjoy your new obsession!

[mmesa005]

fcvan,

I am in Cameron Park, Ca which is @ 30 miles east of Sacramento.

I have a S&W 66-6 "K Frame" There has been some talk about staying away from lighter magnum loads and staying with 155+ grain magnum loads. For 38 Special and +P there are not advised restrictions.

In the .45acp the loads you mention sound great!

Anyone near me who can show me the ropes would be appreciated to say the least!

Thanks!

[Ranger Green]

Hey Mmesa! I am in Vacaville, which is @ 30 miles west of Sacramento. Give me a PM and I will see if I can help.

[mmesa005]

Ranger Green,

I will PM you tomorrow, thanks!

[fcvan]

See how easy that is? I'm running a S&W M13 and understand about avoiding light hot loads in the K frame. Back when I bought it (late 80s) I fired a lot of barn burning 125 grain jacketed hollow point bullets. I still launch some warm 125 TC boolits with gas checks periodically. My standard plinking load was the Lee 356-125 2R (mine cast .3585 at 126 grains) over 5 grains of Unique. I shot this load for decades as it worked very well with speed loaders and was deadly accurate in my pistol.

In the past couple of years, I've been shooting a lot of the 358-158 RF which is dropping at .359 and 162 grains. i size to .358 and use the same 5 grain Unique load. My most recent mag loads have been the same 158 RF boolit with a plain base gas check made from soda can. These boolits also work well with speed loaders. I plan on picking up the 358-125 RF mold when the silliness calms down. A buddy from this site sent me some to try out and I plan on using them in the .38, .357, and 9mm.

My standard 45 load has been the 452-228 1R over 6 grains of unique. I've also shot a lot of the 452-200 SWC over the same 6 grain Unique load. Lately, I've been shooting the 450-200 RN HP (a tapered boolit designed for percussion revolvers) with a plain based gas check. This boolit is .453 at the front band and tapers to .450 at the base. The plain base check brings the base to .452 through the sizer die which is what works best in my 1911 Springfield Armory. I've actually shot this boolit successfully without the gas check but since I got the CheckMaker dies I use them a lot.

Anyway, it looks like you may get some help from Vacaville and maybe some other folks. Good luck and happy shooting!

[mmesa005]

fcvan,

I really appreciate your sharing of information! As you pointed out with all the craziness I have only been able to procure Bullseye powder and at a premium price:cry: So for now my loads need to be based on that powder. What motivated me to get into reloading is all of the crazy prices for ammunition and potential for regulating their purchases. In the end I hope that does not come to pass and that I reload for the enjoyment more than anything else!

I ordered my press from Amazon as that was the lowest price for a Hornady LNL. Been waiting a couple of months and it is supposed to ship by next week (fingers crossed).

Just buying bullets has been challenging and I sold my 9mm in order to cover the cost of the reloading equipment. I only just decided to go the cast boolit route so I will be looking for those components to purchase as well. Probably will start by purchasing pre-cast and graduate into making my own as funds build back up.

I always like to do as much reading and learning as I can before the hands on portion and finding this site has been great to say the least. Just the information I have received this evening has made it all worth while! In fact I am going to donate to the site once I hit the send button on this post!!

Well there's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[gcsteve]

So far as crimping will the .38 /.357 boolits work the same as the .45acp?

You should use a taper crimp on boolits designed for the 45 ACP (no crimp groove). This will allow the case to head-space on the case mouth in a 45 ACP semi-auto. The 38 special and 357 mag boolits most likely will have a crimp groove for a roll crimp. The 38 and 357 cases "head-space" on the rim, usually in a revolver cylinder.

Crimps are used primarily to keep the boolit from moving forward or backward in the shell case during feeding and recoil. Too light a crimp: the boolit could move in or out, changing feeding characteristics and pressures. Too heavy a crimp, and the pressure could build to unsafe levels before the boolit leaves the case, especially if you are at max loads.

You have started the right way, asking questions and reading loading manuals.

Shoot safe.

[captaint]

mmesa - gcsteve explained it quite well. On the 38/357 cases there's a rim for the case to headspace on. Apply a roll crimp to prevent boolit movement. On the 45ACP case there's no protruding rim at the base of the case. We must headspace on the case mouth. A taper crimp must be applied to prevent boolit movement. Generally for 1911 platform guns the finished diameter of loaded rounds at the case mouth needs to be .471/.472. This allows the brass to stop on the case mouth in the chamber. A roll crimp in this case would prevent the brass from stopping on the rim and the round would fall too deeply into the chamber and not fire reliably.
Hope this helps some. Mike

[44man]

Good advice for the auto from everyone.
But for a revolver, don't pay any attention to OAL. Use the crimp groove and as long as a boolit is not so long it sticks out the front of the cylinder, they work. Never worry about distance to the forcing cone and boolit jump, means nothing.
Each boolit needs a load workup anyway.
Books are funny, they show a cast load for a weight and then the OAL. No two boolits are the same. Even lot to lot with jacketed can have the crimp groove in a different place.

[Bwana]

Since no one else mentioned it, make sure you seat and crimp in seperate operations.

[44man]

Since no one else mentioned it, make sure you seat and crimp in seperate operations.
I seat and crimp at the same time. Never found a difference. I tested a thousand times.

[Case Stuffer]

One possible reason recomendations on user's groups are so confusing.

OP was asking about OAL / crimping groves for cast .45ACP boolits. Several replied with recomendations for using Taper crimp and explained why then along comes the seating and crimping at same time makes no difference statement.

In the first place it is impossible to seat the boolit and taper crimp at the same time as it requires two different dies.

Roll crimps are normal for revolvers and yes there are semi autos that rool crimps work with. I have a S&W Mod. 52 which fires .38 cal. full wad cutters with the boolit seated flush with the end of the case and roll crimped. This however is not normal for a semi auto pistol.


It is possible to use a seating / roll crimp die with semis howver the cases need to be very close to same lengths and the crimp needs to be sat only hard enough to remove the flair from the case mouth. If case is rolled into the boolit to much then there is no case mouth for the round to head sapce on. Now if one seats the boolits out far enough that the boolit touches the rifling then that can work but then thesre are numerious other issues to deal with.

Reloading for revolvers and , semie auto hand firearms is not the same. Roll crimps can be made to work with either and so can taper crimps but there are numerious good reasons for one over the other .

[captaint]

Yes, roll crimping is fine in semi autos IF we are using a case with a rim to headspace on. Mike

[44man]

Dies for the ACP taper crimp and some do not come with a fourth die. The seat die will taper crimp or just remove the flare as well as a separate die.
There is no need to seat all bullets and adjust the die to crimp.
Adjusted right, even a roll crimp die will just remove the flare and taper crimp.
Many separate dies are too small for cast and will size the brass and boolit when crimping. I can not use my fourth die with my cast. I can not even push a boolit through them.
The seat die is best.

[Shiloh]

I just close the bell on the loaded rounds for crimping. No need to apply a heavy crimp.
Revolvers with full power loads are a different story. I myself don't shoot anything near max loads anymore.

Shiloh

[44man]

I just close the bell on the loaded rounds for crimping. No need to apply a heavy crimp.
Revolvers with full power loads are a different story. I myself don't shoot anything near max loads anymore.

Shiloh
Every load from all of my revolvers are at the max accuracy only, yes some near or at max loads. But I depend on case tension and crimps are just folded to the bottom of the groove. Even the chicken scratch Lee crimp grooves. You do not need to over crimp.
What you use for a light load is still the best with heavy loads.
Crimp is one of the least understood things and too much is made of it. It aids holding a boolit under recoil and in a tube magazine but it is not the primary thing. Case tension is.
If you think a heavy .44 load needs a lot more crimp then a light one, you are wrong. Both are the same. JUST ENOUGH.
No bulge under the crimp to break case tension, no full profile that ruins brass. No stabbing with a Lee factory crimp.

[mmesa005]

Wow! Lots of great information to say the lease and much appreciated! I was definitely confused about the OAL of a .38 Special /.357 M.

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This picture in specific had me head scratching until you guys explained that to me.

Got the bad news today when I checked on my Reloading equipment order. Now backordered until June! I am going to try and find a Lee Classic single press.

I would greatly appreciate any photos of loading boolits, before and after shots (.45acp / .38/.357)..

Thanks again!

[mmesa005]

I received my Lee press on Friday and started to work on my first batch of bullets! Thanks to everyone's advice the process went much smoother. I measured every single bullet for powder weight, OAL, and drop test into my pistol's barrel. I messed up 3 due to having reassembled the Factory Crimp die incorrectly after cleaning it. Also, the Lee Precision Powder loader was a bit of a challenge as it did not throw the powder charges consistently. Good thing I weighed every bullet. Any advice on getting the Lee to work consistently would be greatly appreciated!


My next step is to order some Boolits and make a batch of those for my .38/.357!

.45acp
New Starline Brass
Federal Large Pistol Primers #150
Bullseye @ 4.8 - 5.0 grains
Berry's Plated FMJRN 230 grain
OAL 1.255
Lee factory crimp set for light crimp

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[Bwana]

Every load from all of my revolvers are at the max accuracy only, yes some near or at max loads. But I depend on case tension and crimps are just folded to the bottom of the groove. Even the chicken scratch Lee crimp grooves. You do not need to over crimp.
What you use for a light load is still the best with heavy loads.
Crimp is one of the least understood things and too much is made of it. It aids holding a boolit under recoil and in a tube magazine but it is not the primary thing. Case tension is.
If you think a heavy .44 load needs a lot more crimp then a light one, you are wrong. Both are the same. JUST ENOUGH.
No bulge under the crimp to break case tension, no full profile that ruins brass. No stabbing with a Lee factory crimp.

Last time I checked this thread was about loads for semi-autos. The next time we need advice concerning "wheel guns" feel free to drop in. The fact that you don't know about crimping for semi-autos doesn't suprise me as you claim to have little experience with them.

[Boyscout]

A taper crimp is more of a compression of the brass against the bullet. Too much and you will prevent the semi-auto mouth on the case from stopping on the mouth of the chamber. A roll crimp acturally turns the brass into the crimp groove. I prefer to crimp separately but once you settle on load and bullet for your different calibers crimping during seating makes a lot of sense if you load a lot of volume.

[mmesa005]

I fired my first batch of .45acp today and after policing up the brass I noticed that each of the cases has a small dent in it. I also noticed some barrel leading at the tip of the barrel @ 1/2" in and only on one rifling groove.

My thinking right now is that I need to reduce the amount of powder?

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