loading a .680 ball.

[littlejack]

Hey guys:
I just won a .680 ball mold on fleabay. I was just wondering if anyone has tried this size in a 12 guage with wad sabot? I tried the .678 balls, with OK results, petals intact. I tried the .690 ball with OK accuracy results, except one or two of the wad petals would get pinched in to.
I did slug my bore, and it is .727. So, I siphered that the .680 ball will be .002 over groove size in the wad, (rifled barrel)
The mold I won is the Dixie Gun Works scissor mold. Only single cavity, but in good shape.
I'm lookin forward to trying out this size ball.
Any thoughts?
Jack

[longbow]

You bet! Well, close anyway ~ I got a new 0.678" ball mould for Christmas. It is a perfect size for standard shotcups but... I am shooting smoothbore and from your comments you are using rifled gun. I have had good results with 0.662" ball and 0.678" ball in the smoothbores. They both shoot very well in appropriate wads.

0.678" may be slightly small for a rifled barrel depending on wad choice. I think you will need a tighter fit than I would normally choose for smoothbore. I can't help a lot there except to say that you may have to try a few different wads to get correct fit or use Teflon, mylar or paper wrap to snug things up if too loose.

Ajay (VDOmemorie) would probably be a good source of info here as he has tried about every size of round ball there is in about every wad made and he shoots rifled gun as well. He may already have posted 0.678" RB/wad fits for rifled barrels as he has posted a number of terrific photos with info on fits. A search of his posts or a PM would probably get you some first hand info and advice. I have only paid attention to his info on smoothbores since so far that is all I own.

Longbow

[pipehand]

My Lyman .678" RB mold arrived today from Track of the Wolf. I was able to cast 7 pounds of balls this evening- they're measuring .679"-.680" with my alloy. 466 grains, or 1&1/16+/- ounces. It will be this weekend before I have time to load and shoot any.

I have been pretty down on the Lee slugs lately. Mostly due to fliers way outside the called shot area. All told, I have tried them with 4 different hulls, three different wads, and two different powders. With and without nitro wads under the slug. I am shooting smoothbore, and nothing I've done with the Lee slug comes close to Winchester 1 ounce foster slugs in accuracy consistently.

The three .600" balls in my Tri-ball lods seem to go the way they're pointed, so maybe a single .680" ball out of a different wad will do the same.

[littlejack]

Hey to ya pipehand:
One of the biggest reasons I bought the .680 mold is that the last time I bought .678 balls (locally about three weeks ago), they were all over the place for diameter. These were even cast by a friend of mine that works in the bp shop. I do not need any more of that **** going down my barrel.
I will at least be able to QC my own work, and you can bet that the balls will be the size I want them. I have had some good groups with the balls, but I shoot with a rifled barrel also.
I do believe that you will have better results with the balls, compared to the Lee slugs. At least the balls are the same shape, no matter which direction you look at them. That is a good thing. There is no way it can go the wrong direction, or sideways if you load them properly in the case, and they leave the muzzle in the middle. All the best in your efforts.
Regards
Jack

[pipehand]

Jack, I don't think varying diameters are going to be a problem with this mold- its pretty consistent, and the mold is good quality. As we develop loads for the .678"RB, how about we post to this thread, and keep it going? I have high hopes of keeping the round ball pointed in the right direction.

[littlejack]

Yes sir, I will update my findings when I get the mold, and cast some rb's.
Jack

[pipehand]

Got an update. I switched 870's from my 18&1/2" cylinder bore bead sighted gun to a 1982 vintage Police 870 with Improved Cyl choke and rifle sights. This gun has a 2&3/4" only chamber. I realize that the choke and chamber length are different variables from the performance of the ugly "tactical" shotgun I have been playing with, but I wanted to use a better sighting arrangement to give the loads a fair shake.

Using the same amount of Unique as I used for my Lee 1 ounce slug loads, both the WAA12 and Fed 12S3 wads were blown badly, and this with a .125 nitro card under the ball. This same charge left the wads in good shape under the Lee Slug. Accuracy was nothing to write home about. This was true for both shotguns, BTW.

Using the same AA hulls, a cheddite primer, and WAA12 wads with a .125 nitro wad, and 18 grains of Hodgdon International clays, the wads stayed in good shape, and produced a 1&1/2" horizontal by 2" vertical 8 shot group at 20 yards. I actually fired 10 rounds, but 2 were called out as operator error. This is actually a rather mild shooting load, and didn't warrant me jerking the on switch!

The crimps weren't pretty, but consistently dished with a view of the ball. I added another .125 wad to a couple of hulls, but it did not seem to make a difference. I can live with it.

I'm going to have to empty out some AA hulls to load more. And give them a wringing out in the cylinder bored 3" chamber gun.

So far the .678"(nominal) ball is showing promise. I would like to have recovered some balls from the berm, but could only find a couple of .600 balls from previous Tri-Balls, and a half dozen Lee slugs. The berm is sand/clay and the slugs were not deformed unless hit by another projectile.

Will try to chrono the load that I fired today, but I need to make a shield for the chrono so the wads or an errant ball don't take it out. Will also have to use a bigger target and increase the distance.

[pipehand]

BTW, couldn't wait. Took the bead sighted gun out, and at the same distance made a comparable 3 shot group just above point of aim. took same gun out to 80 yards to shoot at a 10" steel swinging target- could hit it less than half the time. Most misses were high and right. Still had fun and still could not dig deep enough in the berm to recover a ball. I love being able to shoot in my backyard, particularly when the days get longer!

[littlejack]

One thing that may help the grouping: I had to do some trigger work on my 870. The trigger was flat out horrible for bench work. It is a lot better now.
I still believe that you are going to have better results with the ball loads. Once the Lee slug starts to wobble, things are going to go bad fast. That group at 20 yards is not good at all. I hope to be able to beat that at 50 yards with my gun when I am finished.
It looks like it is going to be a few more days before I get my .680 mold. The seller made a mistake and sent it to the wrong person. It is on it's way back to him now.
Jack

[pipehand]

Jack I hope you do get to shooting 2" groups at 50 yards, and I will unashamedly steal whatever techniques you'll share. I was happy that they seemed to be more consistent than the Lee slugs, right off the bat. Will have to do some 'sperimentin' with different wads, spacers, buffers(COW?) and getting the crimp right.

I did polish up the trigger somewhat on the Police, 30 years ago. "Black Betty*" has not been modified except for the XS BigDot.

I don't do bench work with shotguns. Awfulhand only.

Hope your mold gets to you soon.





* Bamalam!

[missionary5155]

Good morning
It is always fun to read the new accounts of fellers getting started into RB.
I use a .685 RB and it has worked well for me especially here in Peru. I use this ball in standard Win. 12 guage field loads. Open, dump shot, add ball and fire. Respectable accuracy out to 30 yards which is all I will need.
This is out of a Mossy with a 16 inch cylinder barrel with a soldered on front blade. Cannot hunt with it as slugs or RB is prohibited. Why I do not know as there is not any critter to hunt that you could get that close to. But will sure stop a rampaging Toyota if ever needed.
If you ever get bored with smokeless loads try 135 grains of 3F. Makes ya want to go find a loose elephant or water buff somewhere.
Mike in Peru

[pipehand]

Good Morning, Mike. Those game loads you are using, what type of construction are they? Comparable to Universals, or some third world only Winchester product? Fiber wads? Recovered any, and what did they look like? There were some posts by Y-Man in Nigeria who was using a locally available shot load to load homemade slugs. Those shells were roll crimped with a clear overshot wad. I found a box of old Winchester Game loads (No. 6) and while the hull was plastic, the wad was fiber and there was a mylar(?) wrap that surrounded the shot.
Since you're in Peru, how much lead will they let you fly back with? I know they mine and smelt it there, and its getting scarce here!

[littlejack]

Pipe:
I believe that the biggest advantage that I have over your gun, is the rifled barrel in mine.
Mike, the 135 grains of 3F and the charging Toyota just seem to go together. I hope you do not ever have to try it out.
God is Good.
Jack

[pipehand]

"I believe that the biggest advantage that I have over your gun, is the rifled barrel in mine. " Well, yeah, there's that. What you have is really an "Ultrabore" (my 45-70 is large bore) rifle. I'm shooting a "Riot gun" here. You oughta be able to get the Lee slugs to do well in a rifled tube, by what I've read.

For what it's worth, I loaded up a few early this A.M. and used 1.9cc (Lee dipper) of plain Alduh cornmeal under the ball, with a .125" card wad in the plastic wad. The ball fits in the wad tight enough that no cornmeal got past it. I shot 8 of them, and the wads were in better shape than they were without the cornmeal. POA=POI at 20 yards. Definitely shot to where I pointed it. The crimp is improved a bit, as well. I have a thousand or so wads to use, but I'm going to have to order card wads soon- have less than 100 left. Will try to order from Precision Reloading, but only if I can combine it with an in stock powder order.

I'm thinking that I need to try using the Remington Gunclub hull, as my buckshot load crimps look like factory. The whole idea was to color code- green for buckshot, and red for slugs. I may end up getting a bunch of Remington GameLoads, and loading slugs in black hulls. I'm trying to keep things fairly simple.

[pipehand]

I just checked with Precision Reloading. We must be loading a bunch of RB's and Slugs for our 12 gauge shotguns, because they are out of stock on the 20 gauge 1/8" card wads we use under the ball/slug. They're out of powder, too, for all intents and purposes.

[William Yanda]

I apologise for bidding that mold up against you.

[longbow]

I have been using 16 ga. nitro card wads and they work fine. They are a bit tight in some shotcups but I haven't had any problems with performance. There's lots of people loading for 20 ga. slugs now too so they may be buying up the 20 ga. nitro card wads... depending on how they build a wad column anyway.

I am actually not sure why the 20 ga. slugs are so popular. The word seems to be that there is less recoil and better ballistics but I find it hard to believe when there are 12 ga. sabot slugs using light sub caliber boolits. No actual experience on my end but I just figure 12 ga. is overall more versatile.

I guess if a guy has a rifled 20 ga. slug gun dedicated to slugs only there may be some benefit as it is basically a .62 cal. rifle but again, what difference does it make whether you shoot a .50 cal sabot slug from 20 ga. or 12 ga.?

I like full bore or wad slugs (nearly full bore) anyway and 12 ga. makes a bigger hole!

Anyway, back to nitro card wads. If you can't get any try using just a scoop of COW under your ball. The COW seems to pack down hard and works pretty well. I have not run comparison tests but have had good results using only COW under a ball. I normally use a 1/8" nitro card wad plus a scoop of COW but it's worth a try with only COW anyway.

Longbow

[pipehand]

Longbow, I grew up with cream of wheat, but that was in New York. I'd probably have to hunt real hard for it here, but have no problem finding grits. Today I used some plain cornmeal, and it helped the wads out tremendously. I have the full Lee dipper set, so if I can't get card wads, I'll just go up in cc's with the cornmeal.

The 20 gauge wads were out of stock, but you're right about the 16 gauge. If the ball I'm using is .680"ish, then a 16 gauge wad should work. .662" is 16 gauge, isn't it?

I wish they had powder. I generally like to put in a full order of stuff to make the most of the shipping charges.

Longbow, do you have any recipes that have worked well with your .678" RB?

[longbow]

Another option is to pick up a gasket punch and punch your own hard card wads out. A 5/8" (0.625") would be close to the 20 ga. diameter. It is hard (no pun intended) to get really good home made equivalents to nitro card wads though... at least from what I have tried. The cardboard backing from notebooks and such is fairly hard but thin and unless you glued them up they would be pretty flexible so would tend to wrap around the ball. Mind you, two or three might do it with COW or grits or cornmeal. I have used both cornmeal and COW but not grits. I find COW seems to pack up better than cornmeal but without testing it would be hard to say if COW is any better. You might try grits as IIRC it is finer than cornmeal.

Something that did help me out when I tried finned slugs and some hollow base slugs was polyethylene disks punched out of a kid's "Magic Carpet" snow slider. They are thin but tough so maybe three or four stacked under filler would do it too.

It certainly doesn't hurt to try. Just a bit of loading time and a few components for a test. If it works great! If it doesn't, you learned something. Hah! I "learn" a lot if that tells you anything. I have found out lots that doesn't work.

As for loads, I have limited powder experience as I have mostly used Blue Dot under slugs and balls. Lately I have been trying out IMR4756 which is also giving good results. Unique is another powder I have used under AQ slugs and Lyman Fosters but not balls. Unique is a pretty good all around powder and should work fine at appropriate charges.

In my experience, I have had better results with slower powders from Unique on through IMR4756 and Blue Dot than with faster powders usually used for shot loads ~ like PB which I have used. The slower powders seem to be easier on wads. My opinion from what I have seen. Probably related to both pressure and the hard payload. A relatively light charge of fastish powder should work fine but I think if you load to the max. best results will come from the slower powders. Also, some wads seem to fail at lower pressures than others so the combination of powder burn rate and wad construction/material will also determine how hard the payload can be pushed.

Last time out I used IMR4756 at 35 grs. IIRC (don't quote me there, I would have to look to be sure) in Fiocchi hulls with Win 209 primers under 0.678" balls. Worked well.

In the past I have used up to 38 grs. of Blue Dot in Fiocchi hulls with Win 209 primers under balls up to 0.735" (580 grs.). While that was based on pressure tested loads for a 610 gr. solid slug where recipes went to 44 grs. I had enough recoil at 38 grs.! Slapped me silly! I dropped the charge to 36 grs. and that wasn't bad. I used the same charge and components under 0.662" balls too and it worked fine. I figured Blue Dot would not build enough pressure to burn well with a 1 oz. payload but it worked well.

Check your manuals and look for the slower powders from Unique on if you want to push velocities. My experience anyway. If you stick with shot load charges for slugs you should get reasonable results with almost any listed powder for shot/slug of same weight. They won't be super velocity but will be safe and shootable and probably not tear up wads.

When components are hard to find you have to make do!

Longbow

[littlejack]

That's OK William. You didn't know it was me.
Regards
Jack

[pipehand]

Good news.. I'm not running low on the card wads. Found another 500 in my stash.

Better news... Castboolits member KinkBreaker and his son Brock came up for a visit today and we did a bit of shooting. KB has one of those smartphones and took some pics. We shot my .678"RB loads out of my 870 and his Mossberg 590. KB is going to post the pics, and chrono notes tonight or tomorrow. We shot other stuff too, which he'll post to another subforum, but I asked him to put the shotgun stuff here. I am liking the .678" RB a lot!

[littlejack]

Looking forward to seeing the photos. The chronograph information will be interesting.
Jack

[KinkBreaker]

got the pics here
6742167423
here is pipehand's 25yard group, 25 yards as measured with a tape, also a pic of comrade pipehand holding the 870 responsible.
velocities for two shots with the RB from that gun were 1149fps and 1102fps

[KinkBreaker]

6742767428
here are the results from my mossberg 590 from the same 25yards
with pipehands loads
velocities for the two shot chronied were 1111fps and 1133fps
and yes pipehand is always a better shot than me
and there are some holes in that target from other projectiles

[pipehand]

Thanks KB. Pics came out great. Just for the record, the distance was 27 yards. We shot those rested over the hood of the green monster in KB's avatar, which was parked behind the measured 25 yards. Since round balls always go wild right at 25 yards, that was undoubtedly the reason they didn't all go in the same hole from our bead sighted smoothbores.

It was a great day. Thanks for coming. Now I'm off to find the thread where you post the other pics.

[longbow]

If you get a good round ball launch you should be able to shoot under 6" at 50 yards without too much trouble. So far I am finding that contrary to my wants and figurings on bore size round ball being best that undersize balls in shotcups tend to give me better accuracy. I have shot 0.735" RB's with pretty good success but generally, I find it quicker and easier to load 0.662" or 0.678" RB's into shotcups and accuracy is very good to at least 50 yards. Good loads usually run 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards.

Some smoothbore musket shooters are claiming 3" groups at 75 yards with tight patched round ball. They have no forcing cone issues to complicate things but if they can do it we should be able to come close if not match that. Balls do tend to pick up a spin from air drag even if launched well so will eventually veer off course like a curve ball. What the maximum range is for dependable round ball groups is I have not found so far. I have shot some pretty good 100 yard groups but then a nasty wild flier shows up.

I am hoping to get out with round balls, Brenneke style home made slugs, Lee Drive Key slugs and modified Lee Drive key slugs for comparison testing shortly. The goal is to see what maximum range for decent, dependable accuracy is for each.

This is all for smoothbore. Rifled guns are a whole different animal and can produce good to stellar accuracy with both round balls and slugs. Smoothbores are a little trickier to work with.

Good photos and good shooting by the way.

Longbow

[pipehand]

Longbow, any success I've had loading cast in the shotgun I owe to you and the other members that have posted. Less than a year ago the only thing I had loaded in a 12 gauge hull was # 7&1/2 shot, and not a lot of that.

It wasn't real clear when Littlejack started this thread that his use for the .680" ball was for a rifled barrel. When I asked to continue this thread for .678/.680" experimentation, I was thinking smoothbore, and now I feel like a hijacker . I want to know about the performance in a rifled bore, too, I just don't have one.

I'm happy to have found a load/method that I can be confident in. Out of the 60+ rounds I've put downrange, anything wildly outside of the group has been operator induced. If I'm going to test at distances of 50 or more yards, I'm going to have to use a really large target or change to a gun with a different sighting arrangement.

[longbow]

Yeah, I guess i should have mentioned that my slug guns have rifle sights on them not just beads. Good sights should tighten groups up some too of course.

Hah! I lost track of what this thread was about too. A guy just gets to responding and the mind and thread wander some.

Sorry!

Longbow

[pipehand]

Longbow, I have a rifle sighted 870, but my I've gotten to the age where a barrel mounted rear sight is about impossible to use. It also has an I/C choke, and I felt more comfortable with hard solids in a true cylinder bore. I only have a handful of scoped rifles. I have more with peep or ghost ring sights. Those I can use. I had considered putting a ScattergunTech, or Trijicon, or XS Ghost Ring sight set on Black Betty, but I was afraid it would detract from the mission I bought the gun for- fast point and click buckshot delivery. Then as I played with buckshot loading, I saw how distance limited it is, which led me to trying slug loads. I'm not much of a wingshot, but honestly, I'm pretty good with a pistol, revolver, or rifle- cause I try for that perfect sight picture/alignment. I went with the XS BigDot to "get off the X" as it were and to try and make good enough hits fast. I may just have to talk myself into buying another Wal-Mart 870 and putting a good set of Ghost Ring sights on it. With the current craze, I don't think I'll be able to get one for less than $350 again. I'll keep my eye out for a police trade in, I think.

[littlejack]

pipehand:
Not at all a hijacker. All of this information is helping some folks, and is interesting to all of us researching the round ball reloading of shotshells.
Jack

[KinkBreaker]

i like it! my mold should be here today

[KinkBreaker]

i ordered the 680 bag mold from track ofthewolf and got it yesterday, so last night i casted up 27 balls and loaded them into some of the economy loads from wallymart after pouring out the shot

6767167672

the bag mold sucks, dont even bother
it gets hot immediately and then never cools down after you pour it
handles are hot while your holding it forever
the balls come out shaped more like a pill or an egg
and the sprue nippers on them are worthless

676736767467675
here are the results from the range this morning. 5 shots in each target from 25 yards
2nd target pic is upside down for some reason

[pipehand]

So, tell us how you really feel about that bag mold.


You're welcome to some of the RB I've casted. Even though the balls were egg shaped, etc. it looks like they'd work in a pinch, particularly since you were doing a field expedient load method.

[littlejack]

Kink:
I would definitely send the bag mold back to TOTW, and insist for a total refund.
Jack

[longbow]

I have never used the bag moulds and I would bet they do not produce as good a round ball as a "standard" mould type (Lyman, RCBS, Lee) but they should be reasonably round... at least within a few thou. Smoothbore doesn't require perfection but the balls shouldn't be egg shaped that's for sure.

Missionary5155 uses a similar mould he got from Dixie I think and he has good success with it.

I agree, as long as you know you are fully closing when you cast, if it is producing visibly out of round balls, I would send it back.

Longbow

[45-70 Chevroner]

BTW, couldn't wait. Took the bead sighted gun out, and at the same distance made a comparable 3 shot group just above point of aim. took same gun out to 80 yards to shoot at a 10" steel swinging target- could hit it less than half the time. Most misses were high and right. Still had fun and still could not dig deep enough in the berm to recover a ball. I love being able to shoot in my backyard, particularly when the days get longer!
I have found that some times on a berm if it has much of a slope you will find the slugs or balls on the other side of the berm.

[pipehand]

Longbow, I know the camera can skew some things, but the pic in post 32 looks like the ball is much bigger across the parting line than the other way.

Chevoner, If they get through to the other side of the berm, that's a new record for penetration! The berm is fairly new, and not that hard packed. It's also fairly steep, so they are making a hole. I don't want to break down the berm just yet to get the balls. I was able to pick up a 3 gal. bucket of wheelweights today when I had a tractor tire fixed, so the berm mining can be put off for a while. Been using a lot at 1+ounce every trigger pull!

Littlejack, Have you gotten your mold? I hope you don't have the same problem as Kinkbreaker. Been looking forward to your posts on the same ball through the rifled bore. I don't "need" a rifled shotgun to hunt here in SC, but I just think they are neat as hell. Almost bought an 870 barrel with the cantilever scope base on it out of the barrel barrel at a local gunstore. Thought my eyes went bad, as the barrel looked bent. It was. I have enough problems getting things to fly straight, so I didn't buy it.

Kinkbreaker, thanks for teaching me to post pics. Now I'll be dangerous.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Longbow, I know the camera can skew some things, but the pic in post 32 looks like the ball is much bigger across the parting line than the other way.

Chevoner, If they get through to the other side of the berm, that's a new record for penetration! The berm is fairly new, and not that hard packed. It's also fairly steep, so they are making a hole. I don't want to break down the berm just yet to get the balls. I was able to pick up a 3 gal. bucket of wheelweights today when I had a tractor tire fixed, so the berm mining can be put off for a while. Been using a lot at 1+ounce every trigger pull!

Littlejack, Have you gotten your mold? I hope you don't have the same problem as Kinkbreaker. Been looking forward to your posts on the same ball through the rifled bore. I don't "need" a rifled shotgun to hunt here in SC, but I just thing they are neat as hell. Almost bought an 870 barrel with the cantilever scope base on it out of the barrel barrel at a local gunstore. Thought my eyes went bad, as the barrel looked bent. It was. I have enough problems getting things to fly straight, so I didn't buy it.

Kinkbreaker, thanks for teaching me to post pics. Now I'll be dangerous.
I hope you know that what I ment is that the balls or slugs will some times bounce over the top and will be laying on the other side of the berm.

[pipehand]

Yeah, I know that. I've seen it a lot on older hardened up berms. This one's new and fluffy still.

[littlejack]

pipe:
My .680 mold was supposed to be sent today. I am wanting to start casting and loadin balls really bad. I certainly hope that my Dixie Gun Works mold casts better than Kinkbreakers did. Those are some sorry lookin balls.
I will update when my mold gets here, probably/ maybe Friday.
Jack

[longbow]

Yow! What did KinkBreaker ever do to you to deserve "...Those are some sorry lookin balls."?:-?

[45-70 Chevroner]

pipe:
My .680 mold was supposed to be sent today. I am wanting to start casting and loadin balls really bad. I certainly hope that my Dixie Gun Works mold casts better than Kinkbreakers did. Those are some sorry lookin balls.
I will update when my mold gets here, probably/ maybe Friday.
Jack

I have a Dixie .680 mold and they do ok but they are not as round as I would like them to be. I actually thought that Dixie quit make those sissor molds, but I think someone above, maybe it was you that said he had gotten it used.
I just reread the thread starter and it was you. I do like the sizzor mold and it works great when casting. The only problem is, having to cut the sprue off with a pair of dikes or something.

[KinkBreaker]

just talked to track of the wolf and they said to send the mold back for a refund, i will just have to pay postage. guess i just be out the 10 dollars for postage i paid to get it and postage to get it back

[pipehand]

KinkBreaker, I cast up a hundred last night from the Lyman mold. I have more than I have empty hulls for.

[KinkBreaker]

i may have to just bum off ya. even after i get a refund i just wont have quite enough to swing for the lyman mold until the next payday or 2. i guess ill have to bring those hulls i have in exchange.
were gonna get in trouble for making this our own personal thread in a minute

[littlejack]

If my used Dixie mold does not cast round, I will try lapping it, depending on how far out of round it is.
Good for you Kink. You should insist that they pay shipping, as it is not your fault that the cavity is egg-shape. I AM sure sure that the shipping cost is NOT going to bankrupt them.
Jack

[KinkBreaker]

i did go back and look at the listing on their site and it does state there that you have 10 days to decide if you like it and send it back for a refund if not, but you will pay the shipping. ill be happy to get 30 of the 40 dollars back in the end. i should have read more and looked around more before ordering.
suppose they will have the opportunity to make it really right when they post the refund to my credit card

back to the topic of the thread

a variable diameter ball approximating .6XX did okay from a doctored up store bought cheapo shotshell from my smoothbore. as to say they did all hit the paper i was lookin at

[pipehand]

You don't want to take a credit on anything else? .440 RB maybe?

[KinkBreaker]

sent the funny mold back to trackofthewolf, as soon as i can afford the couple of ball molds i need ill add some reports back about the successes and failures with the new one

[littlejack]

I received the Dixie Gun Works .680 mold today. Cavity looked a little rough with light rust. I fired up the pot and went to work.
I cast a few to check for size. The rust did make for a rough ball. I mic'd three, and came up with about .675 average around the waist, and .690 from the top to bottom. I drilled the three balls to take a short length of 8x32 threaded stock, and started to lapping the mold with some fine valve grinding compound.
After getting it all cleaned up again, I cast some more ball. These mic'd at an average of about .678 around the waist. The top to bottom dimension did not change any to speak of. I wanted the balls to be closer to the proper dimension at the waist, and from top to bottom, so I drilled the second batch, and lapped again. This time the waist diameter averaged about .683, and the top to bottom was about .691. I figured I would stop there, as I had shot .690 balls in wads, and some of the petals were pinched in two.
When I load these, I will seat the ball with the sprue up, and the smallest dimension will be at the waist, .683.
The average weight of four with the sprue filed nice and smooth , was 471 grains. If I was to cast with pure lead, it would probably be really close to 500 grains.
The lapping came out very good, but I do wish that he mold would have been the stamped .680 dimension as stated by the manufacturer.
I will let you all know how they shoot after a range session.
Jack

[pipehand]

Glad it finally showed up! Looking forward to range results.

[KinkBreaker]

does the waist mean where the mean where the mold separates? maybe you could sand a litte off where it closes to bring the large dimension down if thats what i think your saying

[littlejack]

It "waist" (equator) is around the perimeter of the ball, perpendicular (90*) to the parting line.
The parting line is slightly bigger, as the lead tends to seep into the crack and leave a raised line. I'm not too concerned about the minor increase amount at the parting line, but I do wish that the dimension from the top to the bottom, was closer to the perimeter dimension of .683.
Regards
Jack

[littlejack]

I cast up about 70 - 75 balls today. Enjoyed the new to me molds. Balls came out real nice.
Last week, contemplating that I was going to have a ball mold without the sprue plate to cut off the sprue, I went a huntin. I found a pair of nippers at a local second hand store. I did not buy them at the time, but stored the image in my steel trap mind (yea right).
Today, after trying my dykes (side cutters to be politically correct), and finding that they leave way too much sprue, I whizzed down to the second hand store with sprued balls in hand. I found the nippers, and gave the sprued ball a little snip, and wa-la, perfect trimmed sprue. 5.00 American, and they are mine. I brought them home, and all of the balls have been de-sprued.
For your information, these nippers look like the ones that horseshoers use to trim horses hooves with, but they are only about 7" long. These particular ones were made in Czechoslovakia.
Jack

[pipehand]

Upgraded the sighting arrangement on Black Betty with the barrel shimmed with Busch beer can to take out the slack. The scope is a 1x Tasco Bantam that I had on a Mectech CCU I use on the 1911 occasionally. That's why it is a "see thru" high ring setup. The shotgun doesn't need it, but I didn't feel like changing out the rings. The mount is the Weaver no gunsmith mount.

690236902469025

Shown is the view from the high tech plastic 55 gallon drum I use as a rest for the shots at the 25 yard line. The gun itself is not rested- I just rest my forearm between wrist and elbow against it. It's more "steadied" than benchrested.

The targets are supposed to be a 1 inch grid, but printing them off made the grid 1-1/8." So the 5 shot groups are 12% worse than they look!

I shot a control group with the Winchester 1 ounce slugs. Wow. 1600fps, but they sure group well.

The groups with the Lee slug did well with no major fliers today. They were loaded with Federal 12S3 wads, a .125 nitro wad, and 25 grains of Unique. The .678" (actually around .680") RB's were loaded with the same wads, but with 1.6 cc's of cornmeal as a buffer, and 18 grains of International clays. Both reloads were with Winchester AA-HS hulls.

I learned a few things:
1. Winchester slugs work just as good as they did 30 years ago,
2. My group sizes with the 1x scope are not appreciably smaller or closer to the center of the target than those shot with just the front BigDot. Definitely a confidence booster.
3. Group with the round ball was not significantly smaller than that shot with the Lee slug.
4. I really want to MAKE something that can shoot as well as the Winchester slugs.
5. I would hunt with any of them at 25 yards. 50 yard testing is in order.

[longbow]

Yeah, some factory slugs do shoot pretty well. Years ago I got very good results with Remington Foster slug loads and more recently (just a few years ago) I got quite stellar results with Federal factory Foster slug loads ~ running about 6" at 100 yards.

I have as yet to achieve that with home made slugs and loads.

The best groups I have gotten with hollow base/Foster slug style home cast run about 2" to 3" at 50 yards. The Rapine 0.730" TC slug was one of the best but I only had a few to test. Those groups ran about 2" + but I did get occasional fliers. The next was with a TC wad slug from a home made mould which gave 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards. I am currently making a similar mould but it will be attached wad style (like Brenneke). I am hoping this is the answer and that accuracy will hold up beyond 50 yards.

I was in discussion with a fellow recently and he said the secret to good Foster slug accuracy is a really solid wad column. From the recovered slugs I have, it does seem obvious that many do tip in the hull/forcing cone/bore... somewhere, as they have crushed ribs, damaged noses, etc that are not from impact.

I gotta get time to post some photos! You will see what I mean.

Longbow

[KinkBreaker]

i had never considered a scope to take more of the person factor out of the equation. very impressive really
my new ball mold should get here tomorrow

[pipehand]

Longbow, the "some factory slugs do shoot pretty well" thing is what's bugging me. I've always been able to better factory performance of rifle or handgun ammunition by handloading. When I started messing around with the Lee slugs, and later, the round balls, the performance of the Winchester slugs was always on my mind. Many years ago I tested the Winchester, Remington, and Federal slugs in my 1982 vintage 870, and the Winchesters won hands down. I haven't tried the newer Federal "Tru-Ball" slugs, but I've read they do well. Shooting the Winchesters today wasn't that bad as far as recoil goes- I've built up a tolerance, I guess. 1200fps or less is still more fun than 1600.

KinkBreaker, I don't know if you can see it in the picture, but Betty has a left hand/ right hand single point sling attachment plate mounted between the stock and the receiver. When I ordered it from wherever it was that I ordered it, it was described as "Steel". I figured I could TIG weld a platform to attach a Ghost ring sight to it, and use the Big Dot with that. When it shipped, it turned into aluminum. Not welding that. I've been thinking of all sorts of sighting arrangements using the big bead, but was out and about today when I found the Weaver mount for <$30 and figured it was worth a shot. I am a variable most days, and even at 1x the scope takes out a lot of maybe's.

[Carryacolt]

"I was in discussion with a fellow recently and he said the secret to good Foster slug accuracy is a really solid wad column. From the recovered slugs I have, it does seem obvious that many do tip in the hull/forcing cone/bore... somewhere, as they have crushed ribs, damaged noses, etc that are not from impact."

Why do the gun manufactures put a "forceing cone" in a dedicated slug gun? I know of a few posters on this site that have had custom slug barrels made without the force cone. It would be just one less variable to contend with in the quest for better groups.

[KinkBreaker]

ive been thinking i should have ordered the mossberg with sights on it originally. since it seems that all the trigger pulls with it for some time have been a single projectile

[longbow]

"Why do the gun manufactures put a "forceing cone" in a dedicated slug gun?"

I doubt you will find a smoothbore barrel without a forcing cone. Most smoothbore barrels are intended for buck or slugs so a forcing cone is a good thing... for any sort of shot loads anyway. Rifled barrel is a different story, no forcing cone required and it is probably detrimental to good slug accuracy anyway.

A guy could probably get a smoothbore barrel blank and have it chambered without a forcing cone but I am guessing it would be a costly adventure. Also, since there are many rifled guns out there for not a bunch of money, if you want a dedicated slug gun then rifled is the way to go.

Some of use are just stubborn though!

Longbow

[KinkBreaker]

if a shotgun were to not have a forcing cone i would think it would cause more issues than it would solve.

it would seem that damage like that is most likely from shooting shorter shells from one of those up to 3 1/2" chamber where there is a significant gap before the payload meets the forcing cone

and thats just me thinking out loud. i dont have any actual education or first hand knowledge on the subject

[littlejack]

Pipe, that Winchester group is what everybody is lookin for. If you could take one apart, and match all of the componants, you would be good to go.
Oh yea, You may get better groups if you use a better grade of BEER can shim. Maybe some of that imported stuff. chuckle, chuckle.
Jack

[pipehand]

69233

Jack, I'm getting close with the roundballs! I threw out a few to the low right, but there are 6 at +/- 1 inch c-t-c. This was using Winchester waa12 wads - the rest of the recipe is the same. I need to give the barrel a good scrubbing, as I think the factory slugs put a bit of lead in it. The spent wads look a bit more scuffed than usual, I think they might be dragging on the leading or other fouling.

I may load up a few more with the petals trimmed back 3/16'ths or so. The crimp with the Winchester wads looked better than the loads with the Federals.

Target was shot at 25 yards. I'd like to shoot a few more targets at that range with good results before heading to 50.

[KinkBreaker]

It's a beautiful thing really

[pipehand]

"It's a beautiful thing really ." Sure is. I think I was on the right track with the fouling. I gotta confess- today was the first time I gave Betty a thorough bore scrubbing. She did have a bit of lead streaking just forward of the forcing cone, but minimal plastic or powder fouling besides that. The cone may need a "polish" as well. One must remember that this is a budget home defense pump, not a Perrazi, so they left off the polished forcing cone.

As far as the wad scuffing goes, I can't remember where I read it, but some may be due to the hulls being used so many times. They do tend to roughen up inside, and probably don't release the wad as smoothly. I may have to buy some new hulls for this project. I also mangled up the crimp on a bunch of them before I figured out the second adjustment on the MEC.

I did find out that the WAA wads work, so that's a plus. I'm going to try the Remington hulls as well. I may use the black game loads for slugs, as all my buckshot loads are in the green GunClubs.

Why do I get the feeling that this is going to be like golf? You'll never be perfect, there's always room for improvement, its fun and addictive.

[longbow]

Looks like you are on the right track there. That is a nice group. If accuracy holds up, which it should with a round ball, you will get nice groups at 50 yards.

As long as the ball is launched well, you should get groups under 4" at 50 yards.

Looking good!

Longbow

[KinkBreaker]

How would one polish said cone? What would be the expected improvement?

[pipehand]

How would one polish said cone? What would be the expected improvement?

Not sure, but I bet Brownells has the kit. The improvement will be to take a rough taper and make it a smooth taper into the bore. Its got to be easier on wads. Especially since I'm using 2 &3/4" in a 3" chamber.

[KinkBreaker]

seems even simpler than that
after a quick trip around google
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?119484-Forcing-cone-questions

im hoping ill be holding my new lyman 678ball mold when i get home tonight soze i can get ready to shoot em this weekend.
i hope they at least perform better than the variable diameter balls i previously had

[pipehand]

KB, That's great that you ordered the mold. I did find the Lee Loader and the conversion for it, and the powder and shot inserts, so you won't have to do the field expedient method anymore. Brock will be able to load for the 16 gauge as well.

Thanks for looking up the polishing method. I may already have what I need to do that job. Even without spending 8 dollars at NAPA.

[longbow]

I was going to say a brake cylinder hone will do a good job too but it you don't have one they cost about $25.00.

Yeah, I have been fighting the same issue and have been planning on getting some 3" hulls to see if it makes a difference. When loading into shotcups it may not but I am betting with naked slugs and even balls (like 0.735" balls) that the longer hull will help.

I recovered several 0.735" RB's and most show a slightly uneven "belt" around their equator and some are very uneven. Generally accuracy was good though.

Longbow

[littlejack]

Those are some nice tight groups.

[longbow]

0.665" is a little small for good fit in a rifled gun unless the wad petals are very thick. 0.662" balls are a snug fit in some steel shot wads which have very thick petals and are supposed to work well in rifled guns. I don't have a rifled gun so have not tried but I usually cloth patch or use paper "shims" with 0.662" RB in regular shotcups in my smoothbore. Now that I have a 0.678" mould, no need because it is a perfect fit!

Longbow

[longbow]

excess650:

I think nitro card wads will work better than felt. If you don't have any, you can punch out hard cardboard disks and stack them, not as good but a firm support under the ball seems to work best for me anyway. Also, if you put a small scoop of COW on top of the nitro card wad that helps too. I have had pretty decent results using only COW under the ball in a shotcup but haven't really tested thoroughly because I have lots of nitro card wads.

My fit comment was aimed mainly at rifled barrel. I have gotten quite good results with quite loose fitting RB's in smoothbore. As long as they are centered in the bore and launched consistently accuracy should be pretty good from smoothbore. Rifled gun needs a tight enough fit to impart the rifling spin to the ball not just the wad. Mind you, a ball is easier to get spinning than a slug as the slug has more mass at the outside diameter so a ball may not require as tight a fit as a slug to avoid slippage.

I have limited experience with rifled gun but I got several 2" +/- groups at 50 yards with rifled gun and 0.735" RBs. I am told that RB's in wads can do as well or better if fit is good. My normal smoothbore groups run 3" to 4" at 50 yards.

Longbow

[KinkBreaker]

alrite,
i got the new lyman 678 mold in and made up 30 shells out of federal universal walmart cheapo stuff. just dumped out the shot put 1.5cc cornmeal and popped the ball in then folded closed. made 2 under 4" groups at 25 yards.
handily so no one can dispute my claim the pictures got deleted from my phone
used the rest of the shots to just make pop shots at a milk jug that was sitting out there around 60 yards, it got more hits than misses
sorry for the not very scientific range report

[Hogtamer]

Longbow, don't know if you saw my post about the 2 ball load, but I wound up with two .570 balls in the cup section only of a 20 ga wad, inserted into 12 ga. VP 65 multimetal wad over 31 grns 540. All in a 2 3/4 hull. I was pretty impressed at 30 yds. but thought some of you guys with more experience could pass judgement from a ballistic point of view. 69679. Could have used the wads again if I had too, manageable recoil but massive destruction.

[longbow]

Sorry, I haven't ventured into multi ball loads yet. I was planning on trying out the Dixie Tri-Ball home brew recipe that James gates passed on but I haven't got around to it yet. I also have a recipe for two 0.690" RB's too but that one is a real heavyweight and I would want to double check load data.

Been thinking about something like what you did using two 0.575" or maybe 0.600" RB's in 2 3/4" hulls but again haven't got to it yet. I have enough trouble getting slugs and round ball sorted out!

That target looks pretty good to me. I can't recall group size James says he gets with the Tri-Ball load but he also uses a tight turkey choke.

If the wads look almost like new then the fit is probably slightly loose. You might try a wrap inside the shotcup with a business card or a couple wraps of paper to snug it up a bit. That may tighten groups up even better.

I can't comment on the powder or charge as I have never used 540.

Looks like interesting load though.

Longbow

[jmort]

Got a .575 DC Lee Precision on order. I think a Duo-Ball .575 at 580 grain load at a higher speed is the way to go. Will probably try a Tri-Ball .575. Dixie is three .600 balls. They are close to 1000 grains, the .575's will be around 870. Still a fraight train.

[pipehand]

Got to do a little shooting today with the RB's. Still holding well at 25 yards, but when I backed up to 50, they were all over a sheet of standard paper. That's the load with the Winchester hulls, and Fed 12S3 wads. Its going to be a while before I can load up more with the WAA12 wads in some newer hulls.

Still pursuing that 3" at 50 yard load.

[KinkBreaker]

youll have to stop vacationing so much

[pipehand]

youll have to stop vacationing so much

Jealous?

Just reread the other posts- I was supposed to have polished that forcing cone, but didn't. The load with the Winchester wads seemed to crimp better and were more accurate, so shooting the older loads was mainly to get empty hulls. In the interest of proper scientific experimentation, I should do a side by side test of once fired Remington and Winchester hulls.

[KinkBreaker]

not really, went to the river last saturday.
70548

[pipehand]

Did you have a second canoe, or were you doing that walk on water thing again to take that picture? :kidding:

[pipehand]

OK, I took the barrel off again, and used Ajay's method for polishing the forcing cone- it looks more gradual as well as smoother now. I re-shimmed the barrel to receiver junction, as the shims I used before were too big (in area not thickness) and worked their way out to cut my hand on occasion.

I loaded up eight Win AA's and eight Rem Gunclubs with 18 grains of International Clays, Cheddite primers, Win WAA12 wads, a .125" nitro card, 1.6 cc's of Alduh Cornmeal (yellow) and a Lyman .678" roundball that casts around .680" from wheelweights.

Taking the gun apart, polishing the forcing cone, and re-shimming, and changing wads called for major resighting at 50 yards. Initial rounds were 8" low and 4" right. I started with the AA loads, and by the time I got on paper right, I ran out of those.70583

This is the last 5 rounds of the ones loaded in the GunClub hulls. I did try to pick out the ones that were in the best shape to load up for 50 yard testing. As near as I can tell, there are three right in the center, one high, and one at 3 o'clock. The ones in the center don't leave a good indication past the first shot there as I need to move the targets on the target backer. I keep putting targets in the same place, so the center is pretty well eaten out, and the round balls push the paper out of the way. Had to have that one at 3 o'clock to keep me humble.

It'll be a couple of weeks before I can play with the shotgun again. I hope Y'all keep casting, loading, and shooting those big balls and continue to post to this thread. My next experiments will be to load the ball subsonic, and load some heavy so they are still supersonic at 50 yards. I've been loading the balls sprue up, and if I can find a way to load them consistently sprue down, I'll try that.

I may also "glass bed" the barrel to the receiver with some steel epoxy, and use a release agent so the barrel is removable.

[pipehand]

UPDATE:

I did try a load of RedDot that took the 680 RB to 980 FPS. Accuracy was minute of trashcan at 50 yards. Not good. The 1150 fps load with Int'l Clays is holding inside of 5 inches at the same distance. I would hunt with that in a pinch. I think I'll take the scope and mount off the 870 and get back to the big bead.

Next shotgun project is to work up a 2&3/4" 12 pellet O buck load using the Activ T-42 wads I picked up a couple of weeks ago. They were older than the clerk that rang them up, but they hold a lot of shot and have thin petals. 12 of my Lee .311" roundballs weigh 1.22 ounces, so I should be OK with 1.25 ounce load data. I have some brand new Cheddite hulls to use with them.

[Hogtamer]

Let us know about those OO loads. I like the idea of more pellets and more boom, but I've gotten more lead on paper with lighter loads: PT1265 multimetal wad with 8 pellets and buffer over 19.6 grns CLAYS.

[pipehand]

Hogtamer, you are totally right about the balls on target thing. My usual load of 9 .311' balls in a WWA12 wad and a trap load of International Clays average a pattern of 10 inches at 25 yards. I tried the 12 pellets in the Activ T-42 wads with 23.5 grains of Unique, and the smallest pattern was 14 inches, but there were generally fliers out to 24 inches with most. A Tyvek wrap inside the wad didn't improve things, and I actually tried fusing the petals together with a hot iron on a few. It just didn't work as well as the mild 9 pellet load. I'm glad I'm not out much on the T-42 wads. They may work out better with a load of Blue dot, and some F shot or something. I had all good intentions of starting another thread with pics and all, but the 12 pellet loads were so disappointing that I chucked the idea.

[Hogtamer]

I finally had better luck with 28 grn Longshot powder: Bpi op wad, teflon wrap, 16 ga nitro cards, twelve pellets, buffer and overshot card. Lot of components but effective. As for the 2 ball, I'm getting one on the money and 1 flyer most times. Occasionally get a perfect shot with 3-4 in. Separation between balls that is awesome destruction. Best I can figure the phase of the moon at loading time must be the determining factor accounting for the difference!! Both loads @ 50 yds.

[nanuk]

... It is hard (no pun intended) to get really good home made equivalents to nitro card wads though... at least from what I have tried. The cardboard backing from notebooks and such is fairly hard but thin and unless you glued them up they would be pretty flexible so would tend to wrap around the ball.

Longbow

Longbow, try the box from boxed seasoned frozen chicken wings. it is very thick and hard! I think two of them glued would easily meet your expectations

[longbow]

nanuk:

I just order nitro card wads by the thousand. they are cheap and they work. Either 16 ga. or 20 ga. will drop into a 12 ga. shotcup. 20 ga. is probably a better fit but I am currently using 16 ga. with no problems.

If I ever run out I will give the frozen chicken wing boxes a try though. It never hurts to have options! Thanks for the tip.

Longbow

[Geezer in NH]

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