Questions About Annealing Cases w/ Bench Source Machine

[Guardian]

I recently got a Bench Source annealing machine. I've read the directions, as well as posts and articles I could find on the internet about the subject. I want to see if I understand what I think I do and pose a few questions.

It is my understanding that the goal is to heat the case shoulder and neck to the point 650 degree Tempilaq discolors below the shoulder and the 350 degree Tempilaq at the case head isn't affected for the lower 1-in (minimum). If the case neck and shoulder flash over to red or orange, the case is trash.

If you slightly compress the neck in diameter and it doesn't rebound, the case is trash. In other words, you don't want the neck dead soft. Right?

The instructions with the unit said 223 brass should take 4-5 seconds. I tried multiple settings of torch distance and it was either taking too long (6+ seconds) or too little (3 seconds) to heat the case until the flame (not the case) had an orange tint at the last moment before the case was cycled out of the flame, without the neck flashing over. Is there a good reason to use the setting that takes longer?

Another thing I noticed was a difference in the colors of the case after annealing. Some would have more colors present than others. 308 cases turned a darker straw color, with some having a bit of red streaks along the edges of the straw coloring. The 223 cases had a little more blue and red to them. The 300 WM had some vivid reds, blues, and silver colors. I think the cases were getting about the same heat into them, based on the Tempilaq, so is this a difference in brass composition? I'm trying to understand what causes the different appearance and if it is something to be concerned with.

Final question, can you anneal cases too frequently? I've seen references to 3-5 loadings, but that requires tracking the brass. Tracking the brass is very difficult for me as it is distributed through several households and collected back into one location after firing. It seems the easiest thing to do is to anneal it every time before it goes back out. It really doesn't take very long to do on the machine, once setup in done. Is there an issue with that?

Thanks for the guidance!

[Walter Laich]

get some 650 Tempilaq liquid and you can tell when you reach that temp. That's what I do. Takes the guess work out of it

[Guardian]

66978

Thanks for the reply. I am using Tempilaq. The yellow is 650 degree and the blue is 350 degree. While it does show that the cases have reached a minimum temp, it doesn't indicate the maximum temp. Are you saying that when it just turns to stop? The one on the right is the setting I went with (3 seconds). The one on the left I thought had too much flame on the neck and not enough on the shoulder.

66977

This photo shows (L to R) 300WM, 308, and 223 case after annealing, resizing, and tumbling to get the lube off. The colors are muted a little bit from the tumbling, but the difference in color is still apparent.

[Walter Laich]

yes, as soon as the color goes to clear it has reached temperature.

Do you size before tumbling? Was thinking getting rid of the crud on the brass would be before you run them through the sizer.

The brass looks good to go.

[Guardian]

This was a batch that I had already fully processed before I got the annealing machine, so it was clean before it was annealed. I should have made that clear. Thanks for pointing that out. The crud seen in the first photo is just from the Tempilaq. I was putting it on too thick when I started and have since used a lesser amount. I just used it on a couple of initial cases to get set up, culled those cases that I overheated, and then ran the rest of the batch through the machine at that setting.

After annealing, I sized them again and then tumbled to remove the lube.

Now that I have the machine, my plan is to anneal between my initial cleaning and sizing to minimize work.

Thanks, Walter, for the guidance.

One question still remaining, is it possible to anneal the cases too frequently?

[jmorris]

I don't think you can anneal them too frequently but you can anneal them too much.

When setting up my machine, I run cases through while slowing down until I reach a properly annealed case then let the first ones cool completely and run them through on the correct setting.

A lot of my brass is completely mixed because it's picked up after 3 gun matches. So some get annealed after every firing and some are annealed for the first time since manufacture when I anneal them. Same goes for trimming, I trim on a progressive so some might get cut and others won't.

[Guardian]

Thanks, jmorris. I understand that too much annealing (heat and time sufficient to create dead soft brass) is possible. My concern was that if the brass was annealed frequently, the increased frequency would gradually reduce the brass to dead soft. In other words, I am not sure whether the specific temp (650 degrees) and time was reducing to a consistent point of hardness or reducing hardness a given amount relative to it's initial hardness. I thought maybe the reason for the suggested 3-5 loadings was to allow the brass to work harden a significant amount before the next annealing cycle. I'm probably just over thinking it. From your response, I gather the hardness is being reduced to a consistent point (x temperature X y time = z hardness) and that gradual reduction (x temperature X y time = original hardness - z hardness) is not an issue.

My batches are usually 500 to 2,000 cases and, given the expense of brass, I'm trying to understand this before I get carried away and ruin a bunch of it. Thanks again for the responses.

[Walter Laich]

It's OK to anneal every time--for me the gain of catching one that isn't annealed is not worth the effort.

[jmorris]

My concern was that if the brass was annealed frequently, the increased frequency would gradually reduce the brass to dead soft. In other words, I am not sure whether the specific temp (650 degrees) and time was reducing to a consistent point of hardness or reducing hardness a given amount relative to it's initial hardness.

I have seen no signs of any problems with annealing every firing, it's just not needed.

It's not like a sun burn, in that every little bit adds up to something. More like a thermometer, within a certain range you can fluctuate the temperature no problem, go over it and it's ruined.

[Guardian]

Thank you both. Excellent analogy, jmorris. I got it.

Walter, my reason for annealing every time isn't so much to make sure that every one is annealed. Primarily, I just don't want to have to track when it was last done or segregate the have and have-nots. The bolt gun ammo is easy enough to track, as the empties go back in the same box they came out of. The semi-auto ammo is a nightmare to track and I just gave up on it.

Again, thank you both. Your comments were very helpful.

[Walter Laich]

I've shoot SASS for about 10 years. Keep shooting same brass until it splits. Started getting 10-15% with and that's when started looking at annealer. Hoping to drop the % of ruined cases back to 1 or 2%.

plus it's fun to play with :-)