.690 ball load problem

[jstnevns]

Hey guys new here been doing a lot of research here about these loads but first time post. I have been trying to figure out a way to load these round balls only problem where I live I dont have any access to purchase fiber wads nitro cards or gas seals. thought about ordering them but decided to try to work with what I had and use information on here and get something close. Load consistated of STS remington 2 3/4 winchester 209 primer 27 grains of herco WAA12 sl 1 once wad with pedals trimmed and a .54 cal black powder wad to raise the ball to get a good crimp. I have WAA12R but they are just to short to get any kind of crimp. So I tried them out to get a grouping at 25 yards and worked well they stacked on top of each other. only problem was the wads really were tore up good and I know .690 round balls casted out of WW are heavier then one once and I suspect the weight of them was to much. My bore didnt have any leading in it at all it didnt recoil all to much didnt seem dangerous but I would like a second opinion on it the base of the wad was the only thing on there that was fine.66788

[Chicken Thief]

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http://slugsrus.com/store/index.html
http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=SFNT&Store_Code=PRE
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/

[SuperBlazingSabots]

A Hearty welcome to this wonderful family of Slug shooter's, this family is caring and rise up to help a family member!

You did not mention so I take its a smooth bore, let's do our homework first, put the .690 RB in every wad that you have and try this:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Wadslugfitinbarrelcopy.jpg
which ever wad / RB combo is the one you can push it through your barrel with 6 to 12 lbs pressure is the ideal wad for your gun for accuracy.

You definitely need a good OP wad to help seal the burning powder gases behind it to save the rest of the wad column.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/OPwadscopy.jpg
or you can try finding this wad:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/BPILB12with678and690RB.jpg
The .690 tends to be a very tight fit in most barrels but then you never know till you try pushing it through.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/RoundBallsinwad.jpg

You will need a stronger darker nitro card below the round ball in wad to give it a solid foundation and then if it was me I'll fold crimp with the Round ball sticking out a bit to help open the fold crimp without mangling the wad petals, that's the way ha ha I like it!
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/LeeDriveKeysluginwadcopy.jpg
look at the last 4 wads on the extreme right, let your RB stick out that much.

LongBow, will soon come along and help you as he is really good at it.

Hang in there, help is on the way!

Best regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl
www.facebook.com/pages/Preci...75489969155338

[jstnevns]

thanks chicken thief guess I have to order some of those components.

[jstnevns]

alright I looked on those websites and I am very confused which wads to choose it does say to choose wisely well I cant afford to buy a few bags and push them through. which wad that you guys noticed that works just pretty well a variety shotguns. I know this is ennoying to ask because I could look it up but there is just so much out there. I just need a good wad height so I can get a good crimp in a 2 3/4 hull. Can one of you guys just put a couple of wad, gas seal, nitro card combo so I can order the right thing from the get go.

[littlejack]

jstnevns:
Welcome to the CastBoolits.
I have been exploring the wonderful world of round balls in my shotgun also. You may want to slug your bore before you go too much further. If the 690 ball is too tight for the bore, you will probably continue to have problems tearing up the wads. The wad petals will get pinched into between the ball and the bore. This will give poor accuracy, and may lead the bore.

Regards
Jack

[longbow]

Hahahaha! Thanks for the intro Ajay. Not sure I will be of much help here though ~ 0.690" RB's and I don't get along well.

So, having said that, I will offer what I have from my experience.

So far any sort of accuracy with 0.690" RB has evaded me! I have tried them "naked" and of course they rattle down the bore so accuracy is poor. I tried cutting shotcups to the equator of the ball also with poor success and even with thin petal wads that actually push through the bore reasonable... no success. I failed!

However, with 0.662", 0.678" and 0.735" RB's I get very good accuracy to at least 50 yards. The undersize balls like a nitro card wad under the ball and a scoop of Cream O' Wheat on top of the nitro card wad. What I have found is that with round balls of any size I have loaded, the wad will swage itself around the spherical surface it it is not supported. Even with 0.690" balls and 0.735" balls on wads with petals cut off the wads fail under the ball if there is not some form of support.

I have difficulty getting components where I live too (small town Canada) so have to order in and often make do as well. You might try just adding a scoop of Cream O' Wheat or cornmeal under the ball to see if it helps. This is also a handy way to raise the ball to set crimp height.

You could try punching out hard cardboard disks with a 3/4" gasket punch. They won't be as "solid" as nitro card wads but better than nothing. Also, something else I found that works pretty well is the polyethylene "Magic Carpet" snow sliders for kids. Again, punch out 3/4" diameter disks and stack those up. they are thin but tough so a couple of cardboard disks and a couple of the polyethylene disks should help a lot.

Back to my round ball experience, I have had best results with 0.662" and 0.678" RB's in shotcups and with 0.735" RB's on hard card wad column. That doesn't help you much with 0.690" RB's though unless you want to buy a 0.678" mould (very good fit on most standard shotcups).

If you want to stick with 0.690" RB then try out a few different wads to get an appropriate fit. I understand that Federal wads have thin tough petals but no personal experience. BPI also lists one of their wads with 0.690" RB's so fit must be okay but again, I have not tried them.

Also, I am assuming you are using smoothbore? If rifled barrel fits will be somewhat different and I really can't help there.

So, what to make of it all? I suggest trying card wads and COW under the ball and see what happens. If recovered wads are in better shape that is a step in the right direction. If not, try some different wads for better fit, brush wads as Ajay shows, or donut wads under the ball and cut off petals from shotcups.

Not sure about your components and charge of Herco so can't comment there without digging up my reference materials. If they suit a slug or shot load of equivalent weight they should be fine. What I can say is that I have generally had better results from slower powders than faster powders with slug loads and Herco fits the slower powder profile.

That is about all I have but I am sure you will get first hand advice from others. 0.690" RB's are fairly popular because of availability of Lee moulds.

Longbow

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good morning, .690" RB in wad is indeed a big problem, see it for yourself:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/12gaRoundBallinwadfit_zpsb365922f.jpg

Best regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl
www.facebook.com/pages/Preci...75489969155338

[fcvan]

,690 round ball, one piece fiber wad, gunpowder, fold crimp. I plan on buying a roll crimp tool just because I like how they look. I made the wad by putting paper slurry into a crude mold and pressing the water out. I plan on making a better mold but for now these load well. I just need a nice day to launch them from a smooth bore shotgun.

66936

[longbow]

Those look pretty good.

If you plan on using them without a cushion lug under, I suggest dropping the powder charge a bit. The effect of replacing a cushion leg with solid wad column reduces volume (no crushing so no increased volume at ignition) so will likely increase pressure. I think this has less effect with slower powders but that is a guess on my part and partly based on looking at shot loads and wad types used with various powders.

Longbow

[fcvan]

The wads themselves are not solid, they are actually a little springy. The starting charge is intentionally mild as well. I've been playing with the composition and of course the height of the wad for seating purposes. There is a mild taper to the wad as it is slightly fatter at the bottom. Serval of the test loads are paper wrapped around the ball to give a tighter seal on the front. We shall see how this goes, for now I'm just playing around.

[longbow]

Another thing, I hope you are planning on using a plastic gas seal under your wads. I recently loaded up some slugs in old shotcups I had cut off gas seals to use under 0.690" and 0.735" RB's. I figured (thrifty lad that I am) that I would use a couple of nitro card wads and a soft fiber wad under the shotcup. YOW! Gas leakage was so bad that the petals have cut/burn marks on them and shredded edges! Yikes!

Since old timey loads were assemble using nitro card and hard card wads I figured gas leakage wouldn't be bad with two nitro card wads but I was wrong and apparently my thirftiness didn't pay off this time!

Accuracy was poor too of course.

So, the moral of the story is ~ use a good gas seal underneath.

Longbow

[singleshot]

Gas leakage is much more of an issue with smokeless than BP. BP ignites so much faster initially, it seems to seal cards (or simply not matter.) The slower the powder, the more important a good seal. Unfortunately, plastic gas checks are so much more expensive than hard cards these days...my testing seems to indicate faster powders and charges on the "hot" side work better when using smokeless and cards. It's probably better to use cards and fiber wads together only, no plastic with cards or BP. Another consideration many don't take into account, the inside diameter of different hulls have drastically different IDs. It's better for components to fit the hull (not talking RBs here...just cards & wads) than the bore. Tight fit of components in some hulls will yield sloppy fit in others.

Longbow, I suspect in your case the gas leakage and resulting damage occurred while the load was still in the hull. Any idea how the card-to-hull fit was? What powder was used?

[longbow]

Yes, you are probably right with BP, I was talking smokeless.

I use Fiocchi hulls and IMR4756 with full diameter 1/8" nitro card wads from BPI. The nitro card wads are a fairly tight fit into the hulls and squish a bit as they are seated. They are 2 3/4" hulls in 3" chamber though so there may be some effect with the jump to and through the forcing cone.

Longbow

[fcvan]

I was able to shoot the fiber wads (see post #9) at the range yesterday. The .690 RB shot to point of aim which was my first concern. Gas seal was poor which made for a mild shooting load. I recovered several wads which separated as expected due to the way the wads were pressed. The front half of the wad followed the ball to the target but definitely separated from the ball in flight. This was good fun and I intend to do some more work with the idea.