Loaded up some BP for my 45-70...

[Dave Bulla]

Hi guys,

Just thought I'd toss out a question or two about loading BP cartridges for my 45-70 even though it is likely too late since I already loaded them.

I loaded 40 rounds total. 20 with the lyman 385gr rn boolit and 20 with the lazercast 405gr. No idea what lube is on either of them but they lyman lube is black and I believe the guy who I got them from said it had some moly in it. The lazercast has whatever the blue/green stuff is they use at the factory.

So I guess question #1 would be "Does it matter what lube I use with BP?"

I loaded a couple rounds once before and had mediocre results but that was with no wad of any kind. This time, I used one 45 cal lubed, wool, pistol wad over the powder.

#2, Think the wad will make a difference?

Also, and I know I'll sound like an idiot but I'm not sure how much powder I used. I've got a small brass powder measure from about 20 years ago that I used to use for a BP muzzle loading pistol I had. It is not marked but I THINK that fully closed it is either 30 or 35 grains and each increment as it telescopes out is 5 grains. Depending on whether fully closed is 30 or 35 grains, fully extended it holds either 60 or 65 grains. I used it fully extended with Goex FFF powder. I filled it with a funnel until over full, then I'd tap it repeatedly by drumming my fingernails of one hand against it to settle the powder. When I dumped this into the case, it would be about 3/8 or so from the top. I'd again tap-n-jiggle the case to settle the BP and it would settle to about 5/8 or 3/4 inch from the top. I'd insert a wad then my boolit and seated/crimped in my rockchucker press with an RCBS die. The effort on the handle was pretty normal and didn't feel like I was crushing anything but just by looking at the dimensions of the boolits and wad, I expect I was getting at least 1/4" of compression.

#3 Does that sound about right or am I maybe compressing things too much?

My only experience prior was regular muzzle loaders and I could put in pretty much any charge I wanted as long as the boolit was seated firmly on top of it. I expect (hope?) that this carries over to cartridges.

Lastly, I've read many times about using drop tubes and such to fit enough BP in a case but do any of you have pictures of your actual setups? Step by step would be great but anything at all would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[John Allen]

I would go get this book. SPG Lubricant's BP Cartridge Reloading Primer by Steve Garbe & Mike Venturino it will explain a lot. The trick with blackpowder is keeping your fouling soft. Start with powder dropped from a drop tube this will allow for a better pack of the powder. I then follow up with a fiber wad on top of this I use nasa lube, spg or homemade lube cut from a ribbon extruder. I then add another wad. I then seat my bullet with a little bit of compression and a little crimp.

I shoot my fouling shot and then use a blow tube for 5 to 6 breaths in between each shot. This helps keep the fouling soft.

On a side note pick up some windex with vinegar. It cuts the following in the barrel real quickly. Before you ask it is Windex with vinegar it is available but hard to find sometimes.

[John Allen]

You of course also should have a consistent grain charge

[Dave Bulla]

Thanks John, I'll look for the book and the windex.

So you are actually using two wads with a layer of lube between them? How much does that cut down on your space for powder?

Also, I was just reading another thread here where the guys were talking about some new Olde Eynsford (or something like that) powder and it seemed all the comments about loads were using 1.5 or 2 F powders. I always had heard years ago when I shot some regular muzzle loaders that the 3F was the way to go for cartridges but evidently that's not the line of thought today.

Any idea why or what the benefits are of coarse vs fine powder in a cased round?

[doctorggg]

I ordered my Windex with Vinegar from Staples. I've also seen it in their stores. Odd place to find it. I ordered 6 bottles and received free next day shipping. I hope this helps.

[John Allen]

I use 2f powder. I do know people that use 3f but most of them are shooting smaller rounds such as 32/40. Right now I am using goex only because I keep getting all these half empty cans from friend and family. I do use two wads. It cuts down a little bit on powder but not much. The wad under the bullet that I use is a thin piece of wool. I do not if this helps but I do not like the lube sticking to the bottom of my bullets. I think when I am done with the goex I am going to switch to Swiss or another brand to try it.

[country gent]

Another book I really recomend although it deals more with the paper patched bullets is Loading and Shooting the Paper Patched Bullet. by Randolph S. Wright. His explainations and step by step break downs are very good and not just do it by why you do it this way.
You may have some fouling issues with the lubes you have. Lubes with black powder not only control the bullets leading but also help control keep fouling soft. I normally put 2-3 long breaths down the barrel thru a blow tube after each shot. A simple piece of clear plastic tubing will work, But mark an end for mouth or chamber as getting the chamber end in your mouth really tastes nasty.
What rifle do you have? What barrel length? what cases? After firing look for a "star" at the muzzle of lube. If it is soft great the lube is doing its job if crusty or none existent better more lube is needed.

[John Allen]

Country Gent, Where is the fun in marking which end of the blow tube to use!

[country gent]

Saves getting beat up when that big guy down the line finally decides your making faces at him LOL

[montana_charlie]

I'd insert a wad then my boolit and seated/crimped in my rockchucker press with an RCBS die.
Most of us don't crimp ...

[Dave Bulla]

Hi again guys.

My rifle is a Marlin 1895 with the standard length barrel. That would be 22" I think?

It's also the reason I'm crimping since it had a tublar magazine. Someday I'd love to own a real nice single shot 45-70 but not yet.

[country gent]

With the tubular magazine you may get some recoil distortion using the true BPCR bullets 1-20 or softer. The harder smokeless bullets may not "bump " up as well for you though. In that rifle maybe something closer to the old carbine loads, 400 grn bullet and 50 grns FF powder. card, grease cookie, card, and enough filler to fill air space + around .125 compression. Recoil would be much lighter and make for a lot more fun in a Plinking load. One good thing with Black powder loads is there should be no air space ( if charge cards cookie is right so bullet set back should be as big an issue. When loaded powder column is actually compressed some make a support for the bullets base.

[nwellons]

I use a grease cookie for lube and the two wads are punched out of playing cards. They are thin and don't let the lube through. I've even used wads punched from waxed paper but the playing card wads are easy to handle.

[Dave Bulla]

nwellons, thanks for the tip.

Just curious, what do you use for a punch and what is the correct size? Also, how thick is the lube cookie?

I've never loaded this way before so please forgive all the questions, but I'm wondering, if the card wad fits tightly enough, would it be possible to have the lube in a sheet and after inserting the first wad over the powder to hold it in place, could you just use the case mouth like a cookie cutter for the lube, then top it off with the second wad?

[John Allen]

I never thought about playing cards. I am going to give it a try.

[John Allen]

Dave, Buffalo arms has punches for doing this. I have the drill mounted one and love it. I turn the drill on a slow speed and go to town. I have punches leather, wool, cardboard and light weight material with it and have been nothing but satisfied.


nwellons, thanks for the tip.

Just curious, what do you use for a punch and what is the correct size? Also, how thick is the lube cookie?

I've never loaded this way before so please forgive all the questions, but I'm wondering, if the card wad fits tightly enough, would it be possible to have the lube in a sheet and after inserting the first wad over the powder to hold it in place, could you just use the case mouth like a cookie cutter for the lube, then top it off with the second wad?

[wills]

1. Yes you should use BP lube. Some people are of the opinion lubes with petroleum in them, when mixed with burning sulfur (i.e. black powder) can create tar, not good to have in your barrel.
2. Most people use vegetable fiber or high density polyethylene wads.
3. Do not compress the powder with your boolit. At least buy a compression plug or to save work a compression die.
4. Scoop a case full of the black you are going to use. Weigh it. This is your charge. (Don’t worry about the weight/volume dichotomy business.) Drop tube it into the case. Put a wad on and compress it enough for your boolit to be seated to the depth you want. The boolit should not be touching the rifling, to allow some soot to accumulate.
Here are two drop tubes.
5. http://www.buffaloarms.com/ItemMedia/10024/10024_41641.jpg
6. http://www.buffaloarms.com/ItemMedia/10024/10024_69786.jpg
7. You can get everything you need from buffalo arms. That is where those pictures came from.
8. http://www.buffaloarms.com/default.aspx

[wills]

http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/Technical_Information.htm

There is some stuff to look at.

And this, though some may not be good anymore.
Reloading 'n' casting:
http://www.ssbpcrc.co.uk/Resources/Introduction%20to%20BPCR%20Loading.pdf
http://www.longrangebpcr.com/8Phases.htm

LR/Creedmoor:
http://www.longrangebpcr.com/

Paper patch Bullets:
http://www.iastate.edu/~codi/PPB/PPB.html

Chat Boards:
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/index.php
http://goexpowder.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=15
http://groups.msn.com/BPCR/messages.msnw
http://groups.msn.com/Schuetzen/messages.msnw
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/BP-L/
http://bpcr.net/index-a.htm
http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewforum.php?f=35
http://www.wyomingschuetzen.com/
http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/yabb.pl
http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/martini-henry/martini.pl
http://gunboards.com/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=14

Reference Sites:
http://www.martinihenry.com/
http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/
http://www.trapdoors.com/
http://www.castbulletassoc.org/
http://www.users.bigpond.com/digger18/main.htm
http://coolgunsite.com/pistols/usarevpage.htm
http://www.armscollectors.com/srs.htm

Reloading suppliers, dealers, etc:

http://www.darkcanyon.net/And_the_angels_sing.htm
http://www.buffaloarms.com/
http://www.sagebrushproducts.com/
http://www.swage.com/ebooks/hb-8.htm

[nwellons]

I use the Buffalo Arms press mounted wad punch. They are not cheap but are a joy to use. It is actually fun punching stuff you find to see what is the best. I read about playing cards somewhere on this site and when I tried them, decided that they were perfect. When I run a row of holes around all 4 sides of the card, I use an old paper cutter to remove the holed edges and square them again. But scissors would be fine too.

[Dave Bulla]

Wills,

Thank you very much for that info!

That's just the sort of info I was looking for. If you don't mind though, since I have not yet gone to all the links you provided and read them I'll kinda "think out loud" for a minute. The full case volume as a measure is interesting. It also makes a bit of sense as it seems that a normal "pour" of powder directly into the case barely allows it to hold the 70 grains the name implies it should hold. So, it's now my understanding that using the case as a scoop but THEN pouring the powder via the drop tube somehow allows it to settle enough that it will fit with space left over for the bullet? Does it matter how fast you pour or does it have to be a trickle? Well, on second thought, since you mentioned a compression plug (Looks like that is what the item in the first pic would be) there must be some compression required. I suppose a properly snug fitting wad should "hold" things together so it doesn't spring back up? Country Gent mentioned 1/8" (.125") of compression so that should be easy enough but is there a MAXIMUM amount of compression? If loading in a press, I imagine you could overdo things to the point of bulging the brass due to the camming action of a strong single stage press.

Okay, I guess it's time to start reading and see how far off the mark my thoughts are...

Again, thanks a bunch and keep it coming if there is more info.

Oh! Just remembered, I have about a gallon of rendered out deer tallow that I have wondered about using for BP lube. Any recipies? This is fat I rendered to make my leather dressing I make but it has not been mixed with anything else yet. It's pretty hard and waxy and will crumble if you cut off a piece and crush it with a fork. I usually mix it with beeswax and a couple other things (oils) that regulate the hardness until it's about like shoe polish or mink oil and it works great for leather. Been using it for years and it's as good as any commercial dressing I've ever used and better than many.

[wills]

“That's just the sort of info I was looking for. If you don't mind though, since I have not yet gone to all the links you provided and read them I'll kinda "think out loud" for a minute. The full case volume as a measure is interesting. It also makes a bit of sense as it seems that a normal "pour" of powder directly into the case barely allows it to hold the 70 grains the name implies it should hold. So, it's now my understanding that using the case as a scoop but THEN pouring the powder via the drop tube somehow allows it to settle enough that it will fit with space left over for the bullet? Does it matter how fast you pour or does it have to be a trickle? “

Really, using the case as a scoop is to help you set your powder measure to throw the volume of powder your case scooped up.

Trickle the powder down the drop tube. The powder will take up less space at this point. It has been said Goex works better if you compress it, and Swiss works better if you don’t compress it. Here is a .45 compression plug for RCBS/Lyman dies.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/ItemMedia/10024/10024_45025.jpg



“Well, on second thought, since you mentioned a compression plug (Looks like that is what the item in the first pic would be) there must be some compression required. I suppose a properly snug fitting wad should "hold" things together so it doesn't spring back up? Country Gent mentioned 1/8" (.125") of compression so that should be easy enough but is there a MAXIMUM amount of compression? If loading in a press, I imagine you could overdo things to the point of bulging the brass due to the camming action of a strong single stage press.”

Both pictures in the previous post were drop tubes.

When the powder is compressed it pretty much stays compressed. I suppose you could compress without the wad, but then powder sticks to the plug. After you compress, with the wad in place, you put a newspaper wad on top of the veggie fiber or HDPE wad. This newspaper wad prevents the wad from sticking to the boolit. Some people go so far as to put a wad, sometimes cigarette paper, over the flash hole before dropping the powder, on the theory it keeps the flash hole free of powder and enhances ignition. Some people swear by it, others find it does no good.

There is more than one way to do just about everything in BPCR and what works for one person may not work for another.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13395-Wad-question-amp-an-idea

I used to have a number of lube recipes, if I find them I will post them, however they are easy to find if you search.

Considering you are getting started at this it would be a good idea to make things easy on yourself, and just buy some SPG, and worry about the lube making later.

[country gent]

The drop tube stacks the powder granuales into the case lessing air space and thus getting it into a smaller area. Always keep in mind that the "stack up" of wads grease cookies and powder must still leave room for the bullet to seat. How you size your brass affects this also. Neck sized cases will hold more powder than full length resized cases. I drop the powder into the case thru a 3 ft drop tube with a slow pour/trickle. Try not to let any build up in funnel also pouring so powder "swirls" is good. Think the way water move down a drain. I then hand seat the first wad by hand to the powder, measure this and you can determine how much your charge needs to be compressed. I normally shoot for around .100-.250 compression with Goex. You need to experiment to find what your rifle likes and what works for you. SPG is a very good lube as is Bullshops, Nasa, and many of the home brews. A blow tube works to control fouling also keeping/putting moisture in the barrel.

[wills]

Yes, we need to mention blow tubes.

Here is a blow tube.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/ThumbnailHandler.ashx?MediaID=49325&size=220

Blow three to five time between shots. The moisture in your breath keeps the fouling soft. If you use a blow tube, it only takes about 3 patches to clean your barrel after your shot string.

[Don McDowell]

Don't just blow, the air needs to come from way down deep in your lungs where it's moist. A person needs to stay well hydrated to accomplish this, otherwise a blowtube can be as much trouble as help.
In real hot and dry conditions, blowtubing won't help at all and that's when a person needs a good wiping routine.

[wills]

BPCR Lubes:

Home

"Great For Hot, Dry Conditions" sourced from Dan Theodore

Ingredients, Procedures, Notes, etc.

All measures are by volume.
4 parts refined beeswax
2 parts LubeGard's "Valve and Assembly Lubricant"
2 parts anhydrous lanolin.
OR
5 parts refined beeswax
3 parts LubeGard
2 parts anhydous lanolin. "This makes a dandy lube for dry, hot conditions."
Note: LubeGard should be available at any NAPA Auto Supply store.
Note: Refined beeswax and anhydrous lanolin are available from: http://www.from-nature-with-love.com/soap/.

Melt the beeswax and anhydrous lanolin in a double boiler. Once both are well melted, add the LubeGard and stir for a minute. This lube works well for pan-lubing, as well as through a lube-sizer.

"Emmerts" - provided by Ken Hurst
This is an old lube but still has a following and has never failed me when using it for Black Powder. I understand it can be used for smokeless if you are using low-pressure loads.
50% bees wax
40% Crisco or lard
10% canola oil
I heat this in a double boiler to mix. Do not heat in a micro wave as it offers too much heat usually. I fill my lubasizer with the lube while it is hot and it works well. I have also pan lubed with good success.

"1995 Lube”sourced from Paul Matthews
2 parts yellow beeswax
1 part Pure Neatsfoot Oil
1 part Murphy’s Oil Soap
(easy to make in 8-oz batches)
1) Melt 4 oz of beeswax in the microwave. Usually 6-8 minutes is about the right time.
2) Stir in 2 oz of Neatsfoot oil when beeswax is melted. Stir until the mixture is lumpfree.
3) Stir in 2 oz of Murphy’s Oil Soap, stirring continuously as the soap is added. Again, mix until there are no lumps.
4) Pour into storage containers as soon as batch is well mixed.
Very soft and sticky. Will not melt in the sun, but works well in the cold, too. NOT suitable for pan lubing.

“Shows Promise Lube” - sourced from Paul Matthews
8 oz Yellow Beeswax
4 fl oz Pure Neatsfoot Oil
1 cake (3 .5 oz) Neutrogena Facial Soap
1) melt the beeswax over a low fire
2) stir in the neatsfoot oil until lumpfree
3) cut the soap into fine peels, then add to the melted mixture.
Don’t boil the mixture. A very sticky bullet lube. Looks to be very good.


Here are some bullet lubes I have used with very good results in the hot shooting weather of the west. - Mystery Guest

13 oz of beeswax
5 oz of peanut oil
1/2 stick of 50/50 alox
1 oz of anhydrous lanolin

6 oz of beef tallow
4 oz bayberry wax
2 oz beeswax
2 oz synthetic sperm oil
1 heaping teaspoon of Moly

6 oz of beeswax
3 oz of bayberry wax
6 oz of bacon grease
1 tablespoon of Dawn soap
2 tablespoon of neatsfoot oil

40% beeswax
30% conola oil
30% lanolin
......................this looks and feels a lot like SPG

70% Soywax
20% Avocado oil
10% lanolin
......................this is good for cooler weather, spring/fall

Emmerts – for Texas Heat - source unknown
50% beeswax
40% Crisco
10% jojoba by volume
.......................this lube will not foul a .45-2.6 34” barrel


1/4 lb. of lard
1/8 lb. of bee's wax
2 tablespoons of STP oil additive
Heat and stir. Let cool. Heat again to pour into bullet sizer. Let cool. Perfect.

Also use the stp for case sizing. there's nothing better.
Curly Thouin, Westhampton, MA

.................................................. .............

[country gent]

An arch punch or wad punch works well. My wads are .480 in dia but I shoot fire formed unsized cases so they are a little bigger id and I want a tight seal between the wads and case.
After seating compressing the first wad you can cut the grease cookie with the case mouth easily.
There are several ways to make a sheet of lube to cut cookies from. 2 sticks or flat stock of appropriate thickness on a sheet of wax paper place the lube between the sticks cover with a sheet of wax paper and use a rolling pin to flatten to the sticks.
Place a brownie pan on the burner of your stove with 1/8" - 1/4" of water in it. This makes a level surface for lube to spread out on. Use tape to mark thickness on sides of pan from water level to desired thickness of sheet. Warm water to near boiling. Melt lube in a double boiler and pour on water. The hot water base allows the lube to settle out and spread making a very consistent sheet. Allow to cool completely and spatula can be used to take the sheet from the pan set on paper towels to dry. When starting with a new rifle I make a sheet 1/16" thick so I can cut several and vary thickness by .060 easily. I may start with 4 or 5 and go from there with what I see. No lube star at the muzzle add another layer heavy lube star take one away.
Beeswax your tallow canola oil and anahydrous lanolin should make a decent lube. Would start with 50% beeswax 40% deer tallow 5% canola oil and 5% anahydrous lanolin to start and adjust from there. Heat and mix in a double boiler. Spg or Bullshops lubes are very good also.

[cajun shooter]

I suggest you read the material that has been posted for you. I also think it would behove you to break those loaded rounds back down and not shoot them. I can't believe no one has told you this. If fired they will leave a very nasty fouling that is going to take a lot of elbow grease to rid your rifle of.
As far as lube goes I see that wills has given you plenty of to think about. If you press search with the BP lube question you will be taken to a posting that has about 200 different ways to make BP lube. The easiest way for a new shooter is to purchase some of Bullshops NASA lube. It is by far one of the best available lubes that you can buy. As a new shooter there are so many things to learn as this sport is in no way the same as other shooting. You will have several things to learn and try as you take yourself from neophyte to a well versed BP shooter.
Not all information is correct so be wary of any person that seems to jump in with all the answers but has no real experience.
As far as cleaners go there are many. I don't agree with the crowd that tells you to use hot water and soap. They then say that is the way that they did it back in the early days. Well the reason for that is two fold. First that is all they had to choose from; there was nothing else available. BP has been used for hundreds of years and they had only water to clean with. The problem with water is that it causes rust and if every little bit is not dried and oiled you have rust.
In modern times we have many better choices. The one that I prefer is called Moosemilk. It is made by using a mix of a product called Ballistol and then mixed with water. They call for a mix of 10 parts Ballistol and 1 part water. I prefer and have better results with a 7-1 mix ratio. It was produced by the Germans during WW1 and is also good for your wood and leather and also heals cuts and scratches. The advantage is you may spray your entire gun down with it and after it dries it leaves a lube and no chance for rust. Use a few soaked patches down your barrel after the first soaking and then a dry patch or two and you are done.
Do a lot of reading and searches before asking your basic questions. I'm not implying that you will not receive any help as this is the best forum on the entire web. Look and see how many new shooters come here and ask what lube, which bullet, and what grain of powder to use. It has been answered hundreds of times. If you use the search button you will find information that will keep you busy for months. Again don't misconstrue what I'm saying this forums members will help you with anything that you deem to be in need of a answer but they do tire of the same questions. They also admire a member who has tried to do a search and can't seem to find all they need. They will help in a split second.
I hope you have a good time in shooting your first BP loads and be wary as it will grow on you. Welome to the Dark Side. Later David