Dangers Of Using Brake Cleaner

[eyehawk]

I thought this article about brake cleaner and Phosgene gas might be pertinent to the casting community:

http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm

[Westwindmike]

Looks like there is no danger unless you expose it to extremely high temp or Argon gas though. I think I'll keep cleaning my AR with it.

[jmort]

Sobering. I clean parts with starter fluid/ether. Rotors get "safe" - "non-chlorinated" - brake cleaner and that is it. Otherwise no use for brake cleaner.

[Spawn-Inc]

Sobering. I clean parts with starter fluid/ether. Rotors get "safe" - "non-chlorinated" - brake cleaner and that is it. Otherwise no use for brake cleaner.

i use the same stuff, works great and makes for fun when lit on fire :)

i don't know if it was phosgene gas or something like it, but i was brazing a copper line going to a compressor on a roof top unit and had a small cloud of smoke come at me. i had to remove the condenser fan to get at the copper line so i was leaning into the unit. my nose burnt alot and i was coughing a bit, but it went away 15 minutes later and nothing came after.

[GLL]

Looks like there is no danger unless you expose it to extremely high temp or Argon gas though.

How would the presence of argon influence this ?
Tetrachloroethylene plus heat I understand, but argon is chemically inert !

Jerry

[Char-Gar]

I won't have the stuff in my shop.

[GBertolet]

My cousin who was a mechanic at a Dodge dealership, came down with cancer. The most probable cause was determined to be the brake cleaner. Granted, he had much exposure daily, in an enclosed area. I would only use it in a well ventilated area, wearing latex gloves.

[Kull]

I use brake clean for many things. If it's metal and I want it cleaned, degreased, or whatever that's what I use. I'm more careful with it than I used to be when I worked for Ford, still wouldn't be without it.

[Fluxed]

Try some Oileater.
Works great and pretty safe to use.

http://www.oileater.com/

Most auto parts stores carry it.

[I'll Make Mine]

Looks like there is no danger unless you expose it to extremely high temp or Argon gas though. I think I'll keep cleaning my AR with it.


How would the presence of argon influence this ?
Tetrachloroethylene plus heat I understand, but argon is chemically inert !

Jerry

The argon prevents the carbon from oxidizing away; lose the carbon, you get hydrogen chloride (which is bad enough; it forms hydrochloric acid when it contacts the water in your nasal linings, bronchi, and alveoli), but if you keep the carbon and rearrange the atoms you get phosgene, which was the first synthetic neurotoxin and the deadliest of the WWI war gases. The author of the linked article probably got mostly HCl, but the seizures and kidney damage indicate he did receive a sublethal dose of phosgene as well.

BTW, the other relatively common source of phosgene exposure in modern days is chlorinated refrigerants (the old R-12 and its close cousins) exposed to a reducing flame; this can happen when trying to braze up a leaking joint without fully evacuating the system first.

As for latex gloves, they won't stand up to chlorinate brake cleaner for ten seconds, they just fall apart. Nitrile does a better job, if there's ever a situation where you have access to that type but no choice to avoid chlorinated brake cleaner...

[opos]

For years I have restored old farm engines (hit and miss type...big flywheels, etc)...they are always rusty and busted and greasy...some of our guys have used brake cleaner on parts and then hit it with a torch to weld or braze....no one I know has died from it but it's one of those little snakes just waiting to bite...the OP's article is one I may have posted on another forum or just coincidence as those of us that are aware of it often use that article as a "warning" to younger folks in the "restoring" hobby...it's deadly...one little whiff can make for a very bad day.

[Katya Mullethov]

I know Brew from another board and his plight prompted me to post of this some time back .He is still kicking , a bit limp , but still kicking . Circling the upper orbits of that field as well , I know one old engine guy that used R12 down the snout of a Maytag twin to kill gophers (beloved brother and friend , "Maytagtwin" Ron C.). But he was a science and shop teacher that knew better than get down wind . He did nearly blow his hand off with a tin of black powder blasting harvester ants as a child , but that was LONG ago . Seems that BP smolders for a bit .


phosgene gas or something like it, but i was brazing a copper line going to a compressor on a roof top unit and had a small cloud of smoke come at me.

If it was in the pre-puron days , then that is exactly what you created . See R12 rodent removal above .

[dragon813gt]

Puron just like Freon is a brand name. It's not how to identify or talk about a refrigerant. This is one of my pet peeves. Even if it was R22 or R410A it's nasty to breathe and takes your breath away. R22 sure does taste like mustard. I'd like to shoot the engineers that designed the refrigerant piping in the units. There is almost always a low spot where oil lays. And of course there is always a braze joint there.

As far as gloves and brake cleaner. If they aren't solvent resistant they are almost worthless. Nitrile gloves will practically melt off your hands if directly exposed to solvents.

[Oreo]

Don't get non-chlorinated brake cleaner on your skin. It causes some kind of chemical burn pretty quickly. It will also flash-rust iron which isn't a problem for brake rotors but might be for other things. Imo, regular chlorinated brake cleaner is by far the better safer product.

[I'll Make Mine]

Nitrile gloves will practically melt off your hands if directly exposed to solvents.

Strongly dependent on the solvent. Latex will go to pieces in nothing flat when exposed to parts washer solvent, cleaner/degreaser products based on hexane/heptane, and virtually anything else you might use in a repair shop and call a solvent. Nitrile will stand up to those solvents for at least an hour or two (I wear nitrile every day at work, and routinely have my gloved hands in lubricating oil, parts washer, and a hexane based cleaner/degreaser). It won't stand up to chlorinated brake cleaner that long, but it'll still last longer than latex (says my experience).

There are other glove materials that will stand up to virtually any non-polar solvent short of ether, xylene, or toluene (the latter two components of lacquer thinner), and a heavy glove made of the right material will take an hour or so of exposure to even the last mentioned -- but those gloves aren't cheap enough to make it easy to throw them away after a single use the way nitrile is (about a nickle a glove is what we pay at work).

[gofastman]

Imo, regular chlorinated brake cleaner is by far the better safer product.
you are wrong

[John Boy]

I gave Brake Cleaner the boot out the door .. any formulation. Looked up the MSDS and then went through the chemicals on Wikipedia. Convinced me I could live a few more years not using it

[Gliden07]

Puron just like Freon is a brand name. It's not how to identify or talk about a refrigerant. This is one of my pet peeves. Even if it was R22 or R410A it's nasty to breathe and takes your breath away. R22 sure does taste like mustard. I'd like to shoot the engineers that designed the refrigerant piping in the units. There is almost always a low spot where oil lays. And of course there is always a braze joint there.



As far as gloves and brake cleaner. If they aren't solvent resistant they are almost worthless. Nitrile gloves will practically melt off your hands if directly exposed to solvents.


Phosgene gas is a byproduct of burning some refrigerants. The reason it burns and tastes like mustard is, back in WW1 it was called Mustard Gas!!

[DrCaveman]

All i can contribute is: dont get a big blast straight into your eye!

My first attempt cleaning a mold cavity, i suddenly forgot physics and failed to realize that shooting high-pressure liquid at the edge of a half-circle facing me would direct the liquid back at me. Also neglected eyewear as it "interferes with my vision". Yeah ill see how long that is true after i keep allowing poison to be in contact with my retina.

Story short it BURNED! I yelled and waved the lady to my side to read the medical precautions on the can, cause i sure as hell couldnt! Also the fact that i did NOT read any precautions prior to my use of the product tells you how brazen yet lucky and stupid i can be. I have a history of eye-pain inducing problems, notably Thygesons, which resulted in even more painful eyedrop medications.

The brake cleaner kicked their butts in the pain department. I was legitimately afraid i had f***** up my vision permanently.

End of story is that i continuousy flushed my eyes, and about 10 min later i had vision, about 30 in later i was back to normal. No big whoop. Auto mechanics probably already knew this. Still, watch your eyes!

[Kraschenbirn]

Phosgene gas is a byproduct of burning some refrigerants. The reason it burns and tastes like mustard is, back in WW1 it was called Mustard Gas!!

Uh-Uh...Phosgene and Mustard Gas are two completely different compounds with different symptomologies. Phosgene was actually a gas and had to be inhaled, contaminating via the bloodstream. Mustard Gas was an aerosol...really deadly if actually inhaled as it destroyed lung tissues, essentially, upon contact...but was just as nasty when it came contact with bare skin, causing blistering similar to second-degree burns.

Bill

[Spawn-Inc]

If it was in the pre-puron days , then that is exactly what you created . See R12 rodent removal above .

it was r22.


Puron just like Freon is a brand name. It's not how to identify or talk about a refrigerant. This is one of my pet peeves. Even if it was R22 or R410A it's nasty to breathe and takes your breath away. R22 sure does taste like mustard. I'd like to shoot the engineers that designed the refrigerant piping in the units. There is almost always a low spot where oil lays. And of course there is always a braze joint there.

As far as gloves and brake cleaner. If they aren't solvent resistant they are almost worthless. Nitrile gloves will practically melt off your hands if directly exposed to solvents.

i can't say that r-22 smells like mustard to me, but i do enjoy the smell of 410a.

some of those engineers need to be fired for some of the stupid stuff i've come across on various units.

[shotstring]

Simple precaution is to not use liquids/solvents that were not intended nor designed to take on temperature extremes. Of course, you still have to worry about combining chemicals any time you use multiple oils, solvents or liquids and no one has all the information on the toxic gas that all the different combinations can create. I guess best advice is to not combine products or heat products that weren't intended to be heated. Easier said than done though in a practical sense. I used to work on heavy equipment, and we heated up most everything with a torch at one time or another. Didn't test for what oils or solvents were on the metal first. Just not practical to do so.

[Dale in Louisiana]

Phosgene gas is a byproduct of burning some refrigerants. The reason it burns and tastes like mustard is, back in WW1 it was called Mustard Gas!!


Not exactly.

Mustard 'gas' (works much better as a fine spray) contains sulfur and is classified in chemical warfare as a blister agent. Contact with skin produces huge blisters. Breathing it destroys the linings of the throat and lungs. There is no sulfur in the chlorinated hydrocarbons used in brake cleaners.

Phosgene needs only carbon, oxygen and chlorine, all available when a chlorinated hydrocarbon solvent is heated past a certain point. In chemical warfare it is classified as a choking agent because when breathed it inhibits lung function.

All that chemical warfare schooling I took in the army pays off, as does working nine years in a facility that produced chlorinated hydrocarbons (vinyl chloride, ethylene dichloride, tri-chloroethane, etc. by thousands of tons a day).

Safety: Use in ventilated areas. Chlorinated hydrocarbons are safe when properly used. Don't spray on something hotter than you can hold in your hand and you won't have to worry about evolving those nasties like phosgene and hydrogen chloride, but then there you are, sitting with a cauldron of molten lead in front of you and you're worried about sniffing a little solvent? Come on! A lot of people don't realize that until the sixties and seventies chlorinated hydrocarbons were used as anesthetics, which means that a medical professional would put a mask on your face and make you BREATHE this stuff on purpose.

Everything we do has danger inherent. We look at the dangers, lessen the risks to acceptable levels by being smart, and get on with life.

dale in Louisiana

[Smoke4320]

brake cleaner neverirem hurtenxjkxd anyonxch l;sa sa=oc
nuf said :)

PS don't put in on a spoon and light while on a plane either

[Old Caster]

Dale, You are so right.

[Nickle]

Brake cleaner and heat is BAD ju-ju.

Brake cleaner itself, unless real safe, non-cholorinated stuff (has to be both) is dangerous as can be.

Used to be in the same Army unit with a young guy that used to wash his hands at work with trichlorinated solvent. Well, we found out it's a cumulative poison when he got too much through his skin, and ended up with severe and PERMANENT problems. He ended up with a medical discharge, and a healthy disability pension, but those are never good.

The "safe stuff" seems to be citrus based, and might burn a little on the skin from the citric acid in it. Same stuff that's puts the pizzazz in lemonade and orange juice.

And, yes, sometimes trichlorimated or other "dangerous" solvent is the way to go. Just use with plenty of ventilation, don't breath the fumes and PLEASE make sure you're wearing appropriate safety gear. Best ventilation is using it OUTDOORS.

[Gunslinger]

I use brake cleaner to clean the case lube off of loaded rounds. I lay the rounds on an old towel, spray some brake cleaner on them and wipe it off with the towel. Do you think this can cause a problem the the rounds are fired???? I use nitrile gloves when reloading.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive used it for years and am still kicking. We used to get it in 55 gallon drums at work. Used it to clean about everything and still use to even clean guns. I doubt ill quit because some yuppie says it will kill me. If i listened to all that **** i wouldnt eat beef, fish, sugar, coffee, ect and i guess i sure wouldnt be casting lead bullets.

[Dale in Louisiana]

Way to go, Lloyd!

I agree. compared to some of the other activities in which I've engaged over the years, brake cleaner is NOTHING!

dale in Louisiana