Marlin 1894P, .44, TARNATION!

[44man]

I must have lucked out when I chose my revolver loads with the Lee 310 gr and the LBT 320 gr WLNGC. I shot some great 50 yd and decent 100 yd groups with them. We took a bunch of deer too, my grandson and me.
I have since tried working with the gun and even 1/2 gr difference in charge will make the gun go nuts. I then tried hunting loads with the RCBS 245 gr semi wadcutter, what a joke! I sprayed the backstop and punched holes in my steel tube target frame.
Light cowboy loads work great and are very accurate but I bought the gun to hunt with.
It has made me think about another barrel but I don't know who would do it or the cost.
I just wrote a letter to Marlin asking why they chose the horrible 1 in 38 twist. I wonder if they will even answer me.
It looks like they made the gun for .44 special loads for the cowboy clan only. Seems to me it would do better all the way around with the correct twist.
Maybe if everyone that owns one would write a letter complaining, they might do something. I think they should replace every barrel free.

[Scrounger]

What bullet diameter? Try .432-.433. Marlin barrels require fat bullets.

[Glen]

+1 for what Scrounger said. My Marlin 1894 .44 Mag will shoot cast bullets up to the 320 grain SSK bullet very nicely (2" at 50 yards with the factory buckhorn sights), so the 1 in 38" twist will stabilize the bullets. BUT they do need to be fat enough for those skinny little Microgrooves to grab a hold of.

[44man]

This rifle has the Ballard rifling and I just slugged it at .4303" to .4305". My boolits are .4315".
With one load I have put 5 in 1/2" at 50 yd's, I can't accept 2" at 50 yd's or as much as 14" at 100 yd's. Just changing one thing will make you wonder if the gun is not a smooth bore. I could not even get pictures of some of the 100 yd groups they were so bad.
Here is how fast a small change will destroy groups.
The left target is 100 yd's, the small center one is 50 and the next is when I changed the charge 1/2 gr, 100 yd's.
The gun has a 3 to 9X scope on it.

[44man]

Glen, what is the twist rate on your micro groove?

[Scrounger]

As far as I know, all Marlin .44 barrels, including H&R Handi's, are 1 in 38. Here is a possible explanation. At 50 yards the big bullet is going fast enough to stabilize; as velocity decreases, it loses stability and starts to wobble. Try lighter bullets, same powder charge, to see if it stabilizes the bullet out to 100 yards. If that is the case, the only thing you can do is to increase the velocity of the 310 gr bullet to increase its range of stabilization. There is a limit on how much of that you can safely do. Do you have 680 or 1680 powder? try a casefull of that. You can't get enough of that powder into the case to hurt the gun or yourself.

[felix]

Late issue Winnie 94's have 26 twist, which is perfect for any and all boolits I have shot through it, big and small. 150+ yard accuracy with power. ... felix

[Lloyd Smale]

I have a 44p and it shoots great with rcbs 240swcgcs and 19.5 grains of wc820 using a fed mag primer. Bullets are sized to 430 and cast out of #2. No problem shooting one inch 50 yard groups. But to be honest it is a finiky gun and loads it doesnt like group more like a shotgun pattern. Another bullet it seems to like is the lbt 280lfngc.

[44man]

Thats what I mean Lloyd, it shoots decent with one thing but is worse then a shotgun if I change one single thing. I notice it when working loads with one boolit. I will get a spray of boolits and as I increase the charge, it will tighten a little, then go back to a spray with 1/2 gr more. This continues through the whole range. There is no steady progression to a tight group at all.
I have to wonder what weather conditions will do to groups.
It does the same with every weight boolit I have run through it. It only shoots slower loads with light boolits. It only shoots two loads with heavy boolits.
When the boolits spray, I see evidence of boolit tipping on the targets.
With the slow twist I should be using round balls because it is like shooting a large, long boolit from a 1 in 66 twist in a muzzle loader, doesn't work! Neither does shooting a round ball from a 1 in 28 twist.
There is no way to increase velocity with a heavy boolit to make it spin as fast as it needs. I have already gone over max.

[HCL]

I am using 20.5gr H110 for pistol and Marlin 1894 with that 310gr Lee, dont know if I got l lucky or what but that load works really in the Marlin. I originaly worked that load up for pistol, but thought I would give it a try in the rifle and was pleasantly surprised.
Havent shot over 100yrds for groups, (100yrd groups are really good) but shur makes a pretty sound on the 300yrd gong!
Mike

[Marlin Junky]

Thats what I mean Lloyd, it shoots decent with one thing but is worse then a shotgun if I change one single thing. I notice it when working loads with one boolit. I will get a spray of boolits and as I increase the charge, it will tighten a little, then go back to a spray with 1/2 gr more. This continues through the whole range. There is no steady progression to a tight group at all.
I have to wonder what weather conditions will do to groups.
It does the same with every weight boolit I have run through it. It only shoots slower loads with light boolits. It only shoots two loads with heavy boolits.
When the boolits spray, I see evidence of boolit tipping on the targets.
With the slow twist I should be using round balls because it is like shooting a large, long boolit from a 1 in 66 twist in a muzzle loader, doesn't work! Neither does shooting a round ball from a 1 in 28 twist.
There is no way to increase velocity with a heavy boolit to make it spin as fast as it needs. I have already gone over max.

Could there be a restriction at the barrel stamp?

MJ

[Glen]

44man -- it's a 1 in 38" twist. The reason I'm satisfied with 2" at 50 yards is because that's all I can get out of middle-aged eyes with buckhorn sights. I may go to a scope eventually, but the bottom line is I can hit a deer in the heart with this combination at 100 yards, and while I may take a shot that's a little longer than that, I doubt I'll ever use this gun for anything much longer than that, so I'm happy.

PS -- what is the throat diameter of your rifle?

[44man]

The bore is smooth with no tight spots. It is strange that HCL finds 20.5 gr's of H110 shoots good because I use 20.5 gr's of 296 for one of the only loads that will shoot.

[lovedogs]

When my Marlin 1894 Cowboy .44 was new it had a rusty bbl. and Marlin replaced it without arguement. The new bbl. slugs .4315. My Saeco mould (#431) drops #2 alloy bullets at 243 gr. and .4305 dia. I size and check them at .430 and use Larsen's 50/50 lube. The rifle doesn't seem to like 2400 so I use 23 gr. H110 for an average vel. of 1840 FPS (at 80 degrees). It shoots that load into an even inch at 100 yds. when the rifle is scoped and I'm having a good day. I've never targeted it to see how well it shoots at longer ranges but have no trouble getting 100% hits to 200 yds. on silhouettes. At 250 yds. I'm dealing with so much drop (about 34 in.) and wind drift (about 25 in. @ 10 m.p.h.) that my hits go down to about 50%, this with aperture sights as we can't use scopes in our competitions.

You might call Marlin and ask them what to do. I've found they don't like to talk to you on the phone but when they receive your rifle and see it's not right they make it right, even if their bbls. are oversized. I was pretty unhappy with my Marlin when it was new but now that it's shooting so well I wouldn't part with it.

[HCL]

44man;
Arent H110 and 296 vertually the same? I spent quite a bit time working up that load for my pistol, and found the same thing with that 310gr, very little variance in load changed the accuracy alot, even in my 629. Did not do a lot of load development for the marlin as this one worked great, so same load for pistol and rifle.
Maybe that velocity/pressure/twist/boolit weight, combination is a good one??
(at least for 100yrds)
Now I will have to drag this thing to the range and shoot it on paper farther to see what is happening out there. The gong really dont tell me whether they are tumbeling or not, just a hit, though I would think that if they were not stabilizing past 100yrds or so, they would be way off at the 300yrd line. Gong is about 3' round so not a little target, but small enough with the drop these things have at that distance.
What alloy are you using? Nuthin but water dropped WW, Thompson Blue Angel lube, and Hornady GC's for these.
Mike

[twotrees]

The Keith 240 gr bullet lubed with NRA graphite lube. 21 gr 2400 with a MAG primer ( I Know, but it worked). It was too long to feed ,crimped at the crimp groove but shot Very well in that gun.

Ended up biting the bullet and loaded 240GR J-word over 296 powder. That combo accounted for 2 deer in 2 shots for 2 diff lady hunters, for their first deer.

Wish I wouldn't have traded that gun for the 308 Savage 99.

TwoTrees

[44man]

I love this little gun, it is only the twist rate that bothers me, the barrel itself is perfect inside. If I load a 250 gr boolit that I designed a long time ago with 7 gr's of Unique it will hit nickels at 50 yd's. The trouble is that this boolit is pointy with a very small nose pour meplat. It won't cycle through the gun so I have one batch of brass that I trimmed a few thou off just for this boolit.
It is only when I jack it up for hunting that the trouble starts and it gets picky. I am quite happy with the 310 Lee and 20.5 gr's of 296. (Same as H110 but about .5 gr faster burn rate.) Now if I go to 21 gr's, groups open a lot but will tighten again at 21.5 gr's.
I would really like to see about a 1 in 20 twist in it.
Felix mentioned a 1 in 26 twist and maybe with the added velocity of the longer barrel it would be better.
If you look at Marlin specs you will see that the .41 mag has a 1 in 20 twist, why did they go so far off base with the .44? I think it was only intended for the cowboy guys and light loads. Then again, they got all the other rifles like the 45-70 with the correct twist.
I don't understand their reasoning so I wrote them a letter.
If enough guys question them, maybe they will change it, then I will sell this one and buy another. I would even pay Marlin to change the barrel for me.

[Glen]

I completely agree 44man -- I think the 1 in 38" twist is a poor choice for this gun, and it would be much better served by a 1 in 20" twist. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that Marlin went with the 1 in 38" twist in an effort to keep backthrust as low as possible for the 1894 action (which was originally designed for lower pressure cartridges, after all). I suspect that they were worried that the .44 Magnum would beat up the 1894 and that by going with a slower twist they could keep peak pressures down and minimize the battering.

Some of the older .44-40s used a 1 in 36" twist, which had proven adequate for 200 grain bullets. Maybe Marlin was just viewing the .44 Magnum as a modern version of the .44-40 and figured that folks would load light bullets to high velocities in it?

[JDL]

My 1978 issued Micro-Groove barrel 1894 will put the Lee C430-310 into 2.5" at 100 yards using 21 grains of H-110, which is about the max range I'll ever get a shot. Yesterday, I was testing the velocity of various powders with the 431244 boolit (254 grains) and with 21 grains of Her. 2400 got a 2" group, while 19 grains of WC-820 gave a 1.4" group. Naturally, I have loaded more of these for a full test later this week. -JDL

[JesterGrin_1]

Bump to keep track. :)

[Boomer Mikey]

I'm very happy with my 1894SS in 44 magnum with its 0.430" groove diameter and 1:39 twist.

I modified the carrier to feed 1.700" COL and shoot 290 grain Lyman 429640's sized to 0.432" with 25 grains of 296. [don't try this without working up loads in your rifle or revolver]. This load is excellent in my S&W 629 DX Classic, and Dan Wesson 744 VH10-SS too. The 1894SS and long cylinder revolvers really compliment each other with their ability to use the same, longer COL.

I haven't tried them yet, but I also have the Lyman 429640HP mold that casts a 250 grain hollow point with the same dimensions of the original 290 grain mold. The 290's go over 1850 fps so it will be fun to see if the 250 grain hollow points go over 2000 fps. There's still room for another grain of powder in the case but this is as far as I'll go even though my guns aren't showing signs of high pressure with Winchester cases and WLP primers. I won't abuse my guns a steady diet of this load but I wouldn't be afraid of running into anything in North America carrying my 1894 or one of my large frame revolvers with over 2200 ft-lb of energy at the muzzle for the rifle and 1650 ft-lb of energy for the revolvers this load delivers. The 44 Magnum can get the job done with confidence.

It's very interesting how well 20-22 grains of H110 or 296 and any 240 - 300 grain bullet works so well with so many 44 Magnum rifles and revolvers.

Another load that has worked well for me in most of my 44's is 6.4 grains of titegroup and any 240-265 grain cast bullet for 900 - 1000 fps. This powder isn't position or primer sensitive and will produce loads with a single digit Standard Deviation using good reloading practices.

Boomer :Fire:

Thumbnails: 429640 loaded to 1.700 COL, 1894SS with receiver sight

[44man]

Boomer, thats a nice boolit but I can't find it in any catalog. All I see is the hollow point. I might have to make another mold.

[Bass Ackward]

Cut the butt stock off at the pistol grip and hack the barrel off at the end of the stock and see if that helps.

If it don't, then go to the top of this section and search for levergunitis. :grin:

Mine is kinda finicky too if I go above 280 grains. Stay below that and it's an MOA shooter if you shoot slow and watch barrel heat. I suppose it could benifit from some more work, but that's after season.

[Boomer Mikey]

Boomer, thats a nice boolit but I can't find it in any catalog. All I see is the hollow point. I might have to make another mold.

It would be slow but you could get the HP mold and make another pin that doesn't make a cavity. I think I purchased the original mold in 1982; this is my favorite 44 bullet.

Here are drawings of the bullet if you're interested in making a mold of your own. If you made a 4 cavity I want one.

Boomer :Fire:

[44man]

My limit has been 2 cavities because of the scrap aluminum. They are not pretty but work OK.

[Lloyd Smale]

was just playing with that devestator hp today at the range. the little 4 5/8s super was shooting one inch groups at 25 with it. It actually did pretty well when we tested it at long range too. Ive got to kill something with that bullet agian either in the super or the 94 p or the 444p Ive got good loads for it in all of those guns.

[Boomer Mikey]

My limit has been 2 cavities because of the scrap aluminum. They are not pretty but work OK.

I have a 2 cavity 44 man, Thanks.

Say Lloyd, I haven't removed the mold from the plastic bag and cleaned the oil from the blocks yet but I'm thinking about it.

Boomer :Fire:

[45r]

You can buy a 357 barrel with the one in 16 twist and ream it to 357 bain & davis.My 357 CB is shooting one third inch groups at 50 yards now with 13.4 H-110 under my 180 PB secant boolits lubed with carnuba red.It's only going 1540 fps but you could get a lot more velocity out of the bain and davis.I'm getting half inch groups with my 185 GC OGF and 1850 fps with lil-gun and thinking about a 35 rem since I'm having so much fun with my marlin levergun.I think I could get 2100 fps with the rcbs 200 grain boolit in a XLR with a lot less pressure.

[Lloyd Smale]

its a slow pain in the but mold to cast with but it does shoot real well in all of my 44s. Exceptionaly in a few of them.
I have a 2 cavity 44 man, Thanks.

Say Lloyd, I haven't removed the mold from the plastic bag and cleaned the oil from the blocks yet but I'm thinking about it.

Boomer :Fire:

[6pt-sika]

As far as the 1894P is concerned . I have never bothered to shoot cast in it . But mine sure likes Nosler 250 Partitions and Hornady 240 XTP's .

I do however have a Marlin 1894CB with a 24" barrel that truely loves Lyman 429244 and the RCBS 240 GC SWC . I also have used the presently made Lyman 44 HP mould . They shot just as well as the 429244 but were a pain in the ass to cast !

Last night I made a deal with a guy for a 336-44MAG that is micro grooved . I have intentions of trying the two Lyman and the RCBS in bullet . As this will be my cast bullet 44 MAG deer rifle . May also try the RD265 mould as well [smilie=1:

[Boomer Mikey]

Last night I made a deal with a guy for a 336-44MAG that is micro grooved . I have intentions of trying the two Lyman and the RCBS in bullet . As this will be my cast bullet 44 MAG deer rifle . May also try the RD265 mould as well [smilie=1:


You may be a canidate for MLGA Craig (Marlin Lever Guns Anonymous.) [smilie=1:

Boomer :Fire:

[Lloyd Smale]

that rcbs 240 swcgc is probably the best dammed 44 bullet mold ever made! Ive yet to find a 44 that didnt shoot it well.
As far as the 1894P is concerned . I have never bothered to shoot cast in it . But mine sure likes Nosler 250 Partitions and Hornady 240 XTP's .

I do however have a Marlin 1894CB with a 24" barrel that truely loves Lyman 429244 and the RCBS 240 GC SWC . I also have used the presently made Lyman 44 HP mould . They shot just as well as the 429244 but were a pain in the ass to cast !

Last night I made a deal with a guy for a 336-44MAG that is micro grooved . I have intentions of trying the two Lyman and the RCBS in bullet . As this will be my cast bullet 44 MAG deer rifle . May also try the RD265 mould as well [smilie=1:

[6pt-sika]

You may be a canidate for MLGA Craig (Marlin Lever Guns Anonymous.) [smilie=1:

Boomer :Fire:


Everyones gotta have an obsession ahhhh I mean hobby [smilie=1:

[JesterGrin_1]

44Man and I are going back and forth with loads and bullets to find a magic load. And I will be darned if I will let a rifle beat me lol. I will make this thing shoot even if I wear it out doing so lol. But if I do then I can throw a new barrel on it lol. And start all over again. Yep this is fun even though frustrating at times lol. :)

[Swagerman]

What are the average velocities you fellers are pushing those big boolits.

Is there any chance of trying some slightly hollow based bullets in those 1 - 38 twist barrels.

They use to use hollow basing on those 19th century mini-balls during the civil war.

How hard does the lead have to be, I seen some mention of #2 mix, can they be a little softer for 100 yard work.

Can send some samples boolits with Hornady HB gas checks if you're willing to try them...but, don't know if that would be practical in rifle load.

Jim

Those in picture are .45 Colt, but can make some up in .44 caliber with .430 diameter if you send a few samples in your lead hardness you expect to use.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/44and45/PC210010closeupofgaschecksHB540X.jpg

[Boomer Mikey]

I cast just about everything with 50/50 WW/LINO. Air cooled is bhn 14-15 water-dropped bhn 22-23 but I rarely water quench. All my 44's are air cooled.

Boomer :Fire:

[PatMarlin]

Anybody have an idea of what my mdl 94 win in 45 colt 16" carbine made in 1994 would have for a twist?

[Lloyd Smale]

got to agree with you boomer thats a great alloy. It casts nice and usually gives top accuracy and penetration in testing. I just hate wasting all my lineotype as its gettting harder to find all the time. I wish i could recover back all the plinking bullets i casted out of it. I now use it mostly for casting big bore hunting bullets and use mostly ww with a little tin or #2 for most applications.
I cast just about everything with 50/50 WW/LINO. Air cooled is bhn 14-15 water-dropped bhn 22-23 but I rarely water quench. All my 44's are air cooled.

Boomer :Fire:

[longbow]

44man:

My experiences so far with cast, cast paper patched and jacketed bullets over about 265 gr. in my 1894 Marlin 1:38 twist is that I do not get decent accuracy with the heavier bullets.

The Greenhills formula predicts a boolit of approx. 0.72" lg for .44 in 1:38 twist. While there are exceptions due to velocity and boolit shape my gun must hve read the Greenhills formula.

I have a 0.4315" groove and had several tight spots at dovetails so hand lapped them out. I read about this being common on the Marlin owners site. Yes, I was concerned about lapping microgroove but I figured I didn't have much to lose. Anyway it worked and helped accuracy in general but boolits over about 265/270 gr. do not stabilize past about 75 to 100 yards.

I had 300 gr. paper patched over 21 gr. H110 shooting nicely at 50 and seeming to hold up at 75 but sideways through the paper at 100!

Jacketed 300 gr. were sideways at a little over 50 yards.

At 265 gr. cast I have shot a 10" group at 200 yards with iron sites and old eyes. They seem to stabilize and shoot well as far as the gun will shoot. With heavier boolits 50 to 75 is my gun's limit.

I also shot the Lyman 429421 and found it shot mediocre at all ranges. Worse than most at 50 but better than many at 100!?! I got 2" to 3" groups at 50 yards and about 4" at 100.

Personally I don't like the 429421 in my Marlin. It doesn't feed well even when crimped over the front Driving band. During penetrations tests with hot loads I found the 429421 collapsing at the large grease ring but didn't have trouble with any other boolits all cast from the same alloy.

I have been told that the WNFP style boolits up to 300 gr. from Leadhead and Beartooth Bullets work in the 1:38 twist if pushed hard but have not tried them myself.

I like the gun but gave up on heavy boolits.

Longbow

[Boomer Mikey]

got to agree with you boomer thats a great alloy. It casts nice and usually gives top accuracy and penetration in testing. I just hate wasting all my lineotype as its gettting harder to find all the time. I wish i could recover back all the plinking bullets i casted out of it. I now use it mostly for casting big bore hunting bullets and use mostly ww with a little tin or #2 for most applications.

Thanks Lloyd,

I used to use pure lino but I found the bullets to be too fragile on steel targets.

I really don't use that much lino, I have maybe 400 pounds left from a 1K buy over 10 years ago with an open option to buy another 1K pounds from the same lot if I want it. I get most of my WW on e-buy, I don't mind paying up to $1 a pound for smelted WW in 1 pound ingots but I won't need any for many years.

For plinking and Cowboy Action Shooting I buy bullets from Bear Creek Bullets out here on the west coast. Around 2-4K a year, for about 25 bucks at one of the local shops I get 500 240 grain 0.430" SWC bullets, I really can't make them for that and if I get 70 bucks or more at a time online they ship them free. I also use several other designs made by them for 41, 38-55/375, 45-70 and 30 cal. They are dry lubed with molly and some kind of wax/maybe Teflon, you can heat them with a torch and the lead will come out leaving a complete shell of the bullet behind. These are bhn 11-12 so they obturate well. Another nice thing they do is make oversize 44's up to 0.438". Leading hasn't been a problem in any of my firearms.

Boomer :Fire:

Thumbnails of some Bear Creek Bullets I use:

[JesterGrin_1]

The problem with Bear Creek is the fact they are not acepting orders. It says three weeks but it has been longer than that since they posted that information on there web site. Plus I have sent them a e mail on 7-30-07 with no response? If you know what is up please let us know Boomer Mike

Beyond that I would have to say Mike from Mastercastbullets makes an excellent product and is very friendly and helpful as he is very interested to make sure what he does make for your application works well. :)

[Ranch Dog]

Over the last couple of weeks I've been shooting my 336-44 (1:38) with my TLC432-300-RF. I thought I would add my data for comparison with what has been mentioned. If the bullet fits the bore and throat/leade, it's a matter of generating RPM for stabilization. My TLC432-300-RF will start to destabilize as the rotation decreases below approximately 21,000 RPM. Relating it to speed, that is as it goes subsonic (.99 Mach) or 1100 FPS.

I've shot the 444 for quite a while and it might as well have had "PUSH IT HARD" stamped on the 1:38 barrels as that is what it takes for the rifles to perform with heavy bullets. The 44 Mag is no different. You got'ta keep the RPM up as the bullet has to be spinning pretty good over the intended usable range of yardage.

I shot this bullet with the pressure trace equipment attached to the rifle, looking at H110 load densities of 80% to 105% of the available powder capacity with this bullet seated to 1.610". This represents charges of 15.9 to 20.9-grains. It has a perfect fit in the throat/leade and is right up against but not contacting the rifling. As I shoot this stuff, I'm not real concerned with the groups as I'm very busy watching the cables more than my shooting style to ensure I collect the data at each shot.

There is no doubt that the top load shot the best for me and it is simply because the bullet is spinning faster so it is better stabilized. Here is the 20.9-grain load at 100-yards. These images should be close to actual size if your screen is at a 100% resolution.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/TLC432300RF/44MagData/IMG/Targets/max_H110_100yds.jpg

The two fliers to the left were shots 4 and 5. I shoot at precisely 90 second internals and these fliers suggest that I need to adjust the barrel band screws. I had everything off the rifle for the strain gage installation and have to learn to read the torque of the band screws so I know what to put them back to! This 20.9-grain load produced a muzzle velocity of 1587 FPS and recorded an average pressure of 36.1K PSI, the limit for the 44 Mag.

I had some extra ammo so I shot five shots out at 200-yards. I had not run any ballistic tables yet, so I guessed the needed elevation and my first shot hit low just off the target but on the target backing. I did some math, shot again and it was the lower hole. I figured it must be dropping about 18" with the 100-yard zero and that is what my scope's duplex reticle spans from the cross-hair to the top of the lower elevation post at that yardage. With that lower post on the bullseye, I put the last three in there.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/TLC432300RF/44MagData/IMG/Targets/max_H110_200yds.jpg

There was a bit of a crosswind but the main thing I was interested in was seeing crisp, cut bullet holes indicating that the bullet was still stabilized. They were. I would expect this bullet to stop performing as it passes 200-yards and not be worth shooting at 250-yards but heck, that is way beyond what should be expected of the caliber. Notice at 225-yards it should be at 1100 FPS.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/TLC432300RF/44MagData/IMG/Ballistics/MaxH110.jpg

Here is the bullet drawing for comparison, click on it for the full image...

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/TLC432300RF/Complete_Small_Half.jpg (http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/TLC432300RF/Complete_Small.gif)

All I'm saying here is if the bullet fits,not just the bore but also the throat/leade, all you got to do is make it spin fast.

[Bass Ackward]

Notice at 225-yards it should be at 1100 FPS. All I'm saying here is if the bullet fits,not just the bore but also the throat/leade, all you got to do is make it spin fast.


Michael,

Very informative. God that stuff is impressive. I can't imagine the bench you must be using as they are NEVER big enough. :grin:

I have two 38 twisters. From those I learned, one will, and .... one won't. No matter what tricks I tried.

Something to consider. Question is .... how .... effective is the one that will? What happens if and when it hits game? How fast and how much penetration will you get before it slows to 1100 fps and destabilizes no longer keeping that meplat forward where it can work? Of coarse we can't predict that since we don't know the density or how "well" it is stabilized from OUR gun. What if I needed 1300 fps to stabilize?

From impact testing, the answers can be very interesting, surprising, or distressing depending on what you expected. A fella just wrote me that fired a 300 grainer (make unknown) into three water jugs and he placed a bundle of magazines behind the jugs to try and stop the bullet. At 50 yards, the first two jugs exploded, the third split and the bullet bounced OFF the magazines. Ahhhh ..... that's correct, no .... penetration what so ever. This is still excellent for broadside or raking shot on a deer which is what he was after.

The bullet was laying right there and he recovered it. The meplat was slightly expanded, but it was angled from the magazine impact indicating that the bullet struck at an angle and was already destabilized at this point. The question was .... exactly how far back did it destabilize? Was the meplat doing anything except going along for the ride? What if he had put a few news papers and a bone in front of the jugs simulating a hit on the way in?

He fired a 240 grain at very close to the same velocity (which is slow for a 240) and it also exploded the first two, ripped the third and bounced off the magazines. He recovered it too. It was still stabilized as the meplat was comparable in size, expanded as it should perpendicular to the shank.

From my experience, the wild card is the meplat width, strike velocity and what you impact on the way in. Chest shots no problem. But then you can penetrate those with a hard 200 grainer.

I think this fella was a little shocked myself based on 300 grains of expectations and only 50 yards to target. So from his tests, 50 yards is about his minimum range. He will get more penetration on out as velocity slows. Maybe. I will bet he is going to test it now and see. :grin:

In the end though, reality is why we have to test. If it ain't stabilized, I don't care how much it weighs, a lighter bullet (or smaller meplat) would be more effective.

[Ranch Dog]

Question is .... how .... effective is the one that will? What happens if and when it hits game? How fast and how much penetration will you get before it slows to 1100 fps and destabilizes no longer keeping that meplat forward where it can work? Of coarse we can't predict that since we don't know the density or how "well" it is stabilized from OUR gun. What if I needed 1300 fps to stabilize?

Greeting BA...

The stabilization of the bullet is same no matter what rifle shoots it. There has been a number of bullets identified here and each and everyone of them has a different point (FPS, RPM, or Mach number) at which they become unstable but it is going to be so close across the rifle of the same rate of twist that you wouldn't notice any differences. Items that do affect the individual bullet's performance are: diameter, length (OAL), Length (bullet nose), meplat, weight, and specific gravity of the bullet's alloy. The last item, specific gravity, is one reason many of us can have the the same mold and rifle but one fellow is successful and the other not. Unless we are all using certified alloys, it is hard to say we are shooting the same thing.

Two other items effect the stability performance of bullet flight and that is the center of gravity and the center of pressure. The further the two are apart, the less stable the bullet is. It would be interesting to examine the bullet that hit the jugs and books. If CG and CP are not co-located, the bullet has a nose high attitude in flight and would hit on the edge of a large meplat vs. the center. All of this stuff is terribly important, can make you crazy (I've gone over the edge and now must surely be certifiably mad), but is interesting!

[twotrees]

Not as scientific as some tests but the 240 gr keith at 50 yards out of a 14 inch Contender fully penatrated an 8" section of telephone pole (a cut off from the new back stop poles), it stuck in the last 1/2 inch and was plucked out by hand.

The nose had a smear on one side and it showed rifling marks, but loked like it could have been fired again.

Lyman #2 alloy water dropped lubed with NRA/Lyman graphite lube.

It would NOT expand at that hardness, but a .430 hole in and out ought to leak enough "Stuff" to make what ever you shoot, easy to find!

Like I said, I single loaded these in My marlin and they shot really tight. I'll not post my groups with these, as I'll need a Kevlar suit to read the responses:-D

I have a 44 hollow base mold that I'll cast you up some if you tell me what hardness you want to try. I'll not size or lube them as you know what your guns like.

Good Shooting,

TwoTrees

[Swagerman]

Twotrees, I didn't get any responce from my offer of hollow basing anyones .44 cast bullets in the bullets hardness of their choice.

(they would have to send me some sample bullets and I'd swage them a HB, with or without a Hornady gas check)

I don't have or shoot a Marlin .44 caliber rifle, but merely reason that the HB might be a solution to those who are having accuracy problems with their barrels.

Then again, this is only in theory, and not sure what the bullets hardness should be for a rifle.

Jim

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/44and45/PC220012HBgaschecksdiepunch566X.jpg

[JDL]

Greeting BA...

The stabilization of the bullet is same no matter what rifle shoots it. There has been a number of bullets identified here and each and everyone of them has a different point (FPS, RPM, or Mach number) at which they become unstable but it is going to be so close across the rifle of the same rate of twist that you wouldn't notice any differences. Items that do affect the individual bullet's performance are: diameter, length (OAL), Length (bullet nose), meplat, weight, and specific gravity of the bullet's alloy. The last item, specific gravity, is one reason many of us can have the the same mold and rifle but one fellow is successful and the other not. Unless we are all using certified alloys, it is hard to say we are shooting the same thing.

Two other items effect the stability performance of bullet flight and that is the center of gravity and the center of pressure. The further the two are apart, the less stable the bullet is. It would be interesting to examine the bullet that hit the jugs and books. If CG and CP are not co-located, the bullet has a nose high attitude in flight and would hit on the edge of a large meplat vs. the center. All of this stuff is terribly important, can make you crazy (I've gone over the edge and now must surely be certifiably mad), but is interesting!

RD, If you like, I can e-mail you some pix of the boolits as I'm the one who tested them. I have 1 Lee C430310, and 2 Lyman 431244, one at cr. 1528 fps, the other cr. 1641 fps. -JDL

[Boomer Mikey]

The problem with Bear Creek is the fact they are not acepting orders. It says three weeks but it has been longer than that since they posted that information on there web site. Plus I have sent them a e mail on 7-30-07 with no response? If you know what is up please let us know Boomer Mike

Beyond that I would have to say Mike from Mastercastbullets makes an excellent product and is very friendly and helpful as he is very interested to make sure what he does make for your application works well. :)

Hi JesterGrin 1,

There are many excellent cast bullet makers out there that care a great deal about providing bullets to meet our needs. Some are in what I would call the "custom" bullet business and while others at the opposite extreme are in the "volume" bullet business. The cast bullet business is booming nowadays and is expected to continue to grow as copper prices continue to increase dramatically. It will be interesting to see how much Jword bullet prices increase this winter and I wouldn't be surprised if that increase is greater than 20%.

It isn't uncommon for custom bullet makers and volume bullet makers like Bear Creek Bullets to get buried with orders at various times of the year and typically late summer is one of, if not, the busiest time if the year with hunters getting ready for hunting season. When you factor into the backlogs the recent increase in demand and that many of these bulletmakers are a family run, or one man operation do you begin to understand the delays.

Everyone wants everything now; I learned years ago to order my bullets long before I need them as six month delivery delays aren't uncommon with companies that are struggling to keep up with orders and communications typically aren't good with busy people that don't want to give their customers bad news.

The main reason I cast is to provide myself with a guaranteed source of bullets. I'm in the custom bullet business for my needs, and sometimes I'm backordered too.

If Mike at Mastercast bullets can meet your needs, by all means place your orders with him. After you work up some good loads with Mastercast bullets you; like myself, may be willing to wait if necessary for more of what works for you rather than change bullet suppliers and work up new loads. I'm willing to wait for what I like (in this case, bullets that have consistently worked well for me at a reasonable cost). You may not, but then we can cast our own, can't we?

Maybe not... my Lee and RanchDog custom molds are backordered for 6 months too.

Boomer :Fire:

[JesterGrin_1]

I will continue to use Mike at Mastercast bullets. I feel I am very lucky to have met Mike here on the forum. :drinks:

And I do understand about Bear Creek but they should at least update there site with the correct information I would think.

[Bass Ackward]

RD, If you like, I can e-mail you some pix of the boolits as I'm the one who tested them. I have 1 Lee C430310, and 2 Lyman 431244, one at cr. 1528 fps, the other cr. 1641 fps. -JDL


Joe,

I wasn't going to say anything unless you spoke up.



Michael,

Good points on paper. But center of pressure is something too difficult for me to track. Just in plain air is difficult enough little alone game.

NASA says that center of pressure changes based on variables from air density to velocity. So .... except for changing powder charge and altering velocity until accuracy occurs, (if I have the twist rate for this luxury) I got no control to see when it is going my way and at what point it hain't. That's on paper, fine, I'll give you that.

I can't calculate velocity loss in game, so changes in P' can't be factored into game stabilization on critical edges like 300 grains in a 38 twist. Plus center of P' changes, once the medium changes from air to flesh. And it continues to change as that bullet deforms. All I got is that center of balance point that I designed in at the back and "adequate twist rate" for control, as that P' is going who knows where.

If you understand and can track center of pressure, or design a bullet for a .... WIDE velocity range to cover deceleration and deformation in all mediums, God bless ya. I'll stand back from the edge myself.

[44man]

Much interesting stuff here. I can tell you from experience what the Lee 310 gr and the LBT 320 gr does on deer. Boolit paths have all been straight through and the exit hole is nice and round. Some just pitch to the ground and others spin and just stand there until they die. I have taken a lot of deer with these boolits in the revolver and with the added velocity from the Marlin, they sure do a good job.
Look at Ranchdogs results with H110 and 20.9 gr's. That is about a perfect match to my 20.5 gr load of 296. H110 being just a tad slower. However 21.5 gr's of 296 also shoots great and I have worked to 23 gr's without pressure signs.
I have been shooting these boolits for years from my SBH with 21.5 gr's of 296 because they are the most accurate. With the strength of the Marlin and Ruger, I do not worry about a little more powder as long as it is 296 or H110. There are no big surprises with either. You just have to use care working loads.
But then again, even though all say the boolit needs to go faster with the slow twist, I have not found it to work beyond 21.5 gr's of 296 because groups increase in size with each addition of powder. I think the heavy boolit has a tight lower and upper velocity limit.
Shooting the lighter boolits of 245 and 250 gr's has shown me that if I try to speed them up, they go all over the place.
All I can say is the 1 in 38 twist is a pain in the butt. It has been a week and I have no response from Marlin. I also get no response from Hodgden on max loads for some of their powders in other calibers. Seems as if, if it is not published data, they ignore us. If you look at Alliants site, they say not to load their powders in some handguns. The lawyers have spoken again.
I remember when the .44 mag came out and I bought some factory loads to get brass. Recoil was unreal and with the first shot I had to look at the gun to see if it was still in one piece. They REALLY loaded the first loads. I still have some and they are much hotter then what I load. All factory loads and load info has kept going down in the years since.

[JDL]

Joe,

I wasn't going to say anything unless you spoke up.



[/QUOTE]

John, I wasn't worried in the least.
I finally got around to looking at the magazines today and found that the boolits had hit with enough force to break the pages through 5 of the magazines. I think you're correct in the assumption, that at longer distance the penetration would be greater, because the boolit that split the most pages in the stack of magazines was the lowest velocity. That boolit being the Lyman 431244 not the 310 grain Lee which was about the same velocity. OTOH, the 431244 that was started about 115 fps faster split more than the heavy Lee and expanded to a somewhat larger diameter. I hope I'm not over-analizing this but, it tends to make one think. -JDL

[45r]

If you get them to bring out a better twist for the 44 mag I hope somebody gets them to bring back the 375 win with a one in 16 twist and a .376 bore.I'd settle for .377 though.they made some 38-55 with the right twist but can't get myself to buy one with the .380 bore they put on most of them.It would be great if you could get guns with the right twist and a bore that doesn't need oversized boolits.

[Ranch Dog]

45r...
I think over-bore and over-diameter is protection from us "handloaders". I also would bet the 1:38 complaints Marlin receives about the 1894s are few and far between compared to the number of rifles they sell. I would further bet that at least 90% of those buying the rifles don't know the rate of twist from a banana! There is always hope though, I would never have thought that Marlin would change the 1:38 of the 444 Marlin to the 1:20. Now, if I could get the Micro-Groove barrel with the 1:20 I would be a happy camper!

44Man...
I think H110 (and probably 296) does it's best work at 100% to 105% compression. Looser or tighter, the ES on pressure (hence velocity) goes out the door. That of course is reflected in the shotgun patterns we see.

Bass...
You are right about all this "nuts and bolts" stuff. Basically the way I see it standing on my range is "it is what it is". If something isn't working, I move on without spending a bunch of time wasting lead and powder. The best loading technique is just the basic stuff we do. If a rifle isn't shooting well, it's time to move on to another bullet or powder. If it continues not to shoot well, it's time to move the rifle. Over on ShootersForum.com a fellow has a post that covers a period of about 3 years bloging his attempt to get his 1894 to shoot ANY weight cast bullet. I think I would have moved on about 2 years and 9 months ago with another rifle!

I try not to get in a knot with all my equipment in determining a load. In fact, I don't use any of the pressure trace gear to work on an actual load for my rifles, just for building a pressure chart. The best way to determine a load is the basics we are all familiar with. If it don't work, it won't work when you need it in the field.

JDL...
If the drawings have complete measurements I will run them through the internal ballistics program and see what it says. I would bet they are very close to what we have talked about here already.

and finally to the original poster (I've lost track)...
If you are tired of that 1894P, would you want to trade a 1894CL (218 Bee) for it. Yes, it's wore out it's welcome here :-? and I've killed a lot more coyotes and dogs with my 39A and it will never catch up to it's reputation now.

[Scrounger]

Marlin would change the 1:38 of the 444 Marlin to the 1:20. Now, if I could get the Micro-Groove barrel with the 1:20 I would be a happy camper!

Geez, Gary, I've been trying to sell one for six months! Oops, mine has Ballard rifling. Sorry.

[45r]

I think your right RD.Marlin is selling their rifles so fast in some models they are getting behind.I think I will have to look for a good used 336 and have it rebored to .376 in 375 win.Their walnut 308 ME looks perfect to me,wish they offered one in 375 win with the .376 bore with a one in 16 twist.A rimmed and strait case is looking more practical than a bottlenecked one.I don't want the recoil of a 44 or 45 so 375 win looks best.Have heard they can be very accurate with cast boolits.

[Boomer Mikey]

I think your right RD.Marlin is selling their rifles so fast in some models they are getting behind.I think I will have to look for a good used 336 and have it rebored to .376 in 375 win.Their walnut 308 ME looks perfect to me,wish they offered one in 375 win with the .376 bore with a one in 16 twist.A rimmed and strait case is looking more practical than a bottlenecked one.I don't want the recoil of a 44 or 45 so 375 win looks best.Have heard they can be very accurate with cast boolits.

38-55 is just as good for cast bullets and brass is a non-issue. I have both 38-55 and 375 Winchester, the 336CB 38-55 Cowboy's groove diameter is 0.375".

These aren't current production but they come and go on the auction sites.

The Marlin 336CB Cowboy 38-55 Win with 24" Octagonal barrel is a dandy rifle. These are strong rifles with the feel and looks to back them up as one of my 5 favorite lever guns. The 1895CB 45-70 Cowboy is its bigger brother, another must have in my book.

Boomer :Fire:

[PatMarlin]

I want this one..

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=79822256

[smilie=1:

[Ranch Dog]

I think I will have to look for a good used 336 and have it rebored to .376 in 375 win.

Robert Bose is going to refinish my 444T for me this winter as soon as it kills it's typical "wall hanger". We talked about a new barrel, something bored correctly for the caliber and then I thought... "holy cow, I would have to go back through all these molds and have them cut the correct diameter!" That's no go so, I will leave the same old barrel on the rifle! Damned sure don't want to start all this over again!

[45r]

you could leave the design the same and size down a few thou or have lee cut some molds a little smaller diameter.I have shot 431 boolits out of my 429 bore S&W custom revolver with the same good accuracy as boolits sized 429.Tight bores shoot oversized boolits well but loose bores are not as forgiving about what they like it seems to me.

[44man]

My friend dropped off his 1894 with micro groove for me to try alongside my ballard rifling. I slugged the bore at .4295" and it is round. It shot exactly the same as mine with 100 yd groups running 3-3/4" to 5-1/2". I have some different boolits, 300 gr's, one a hollow point, both shot the same.
I noticed when I got to 21.5 gr's of 296, it shot the smallest so I am going to work up more to see what happens.
I agree that the boolit needs more speed. Groups open in the revolver as I go up but I have not tried it in the Marlin yet.
Still burns me that a good 240 to 250 gr needs to be slowed down so far as to be useless for hunting or distance and a heavy boolit needs driven faster then the cartridge is capable of.
I have to wonder what it would cost to have a new barrel put on and who does good work?

[Scrounger]

Quote: Still burns me that a good 240 to 250 gr needs to be slowed down so far as to be useless for hunting or distance and a heavy boolit needs driven faster then the cartridge is capable of.
I have to wonder what it would cost to have a new barrel put on and who does good work? Quote.

Vexing, isn't it? Almost makes a guy want to switch to .45 Colt with it's better twist rate.

[Bass Ackward]

Still burns me that a good 240 to 250 gr needs to be slowed down so far as to be useless for hunting or distance and a heavy boolit needs driven faster then the cartridge is capable of.

I have to wonder what it would cost to have a new barrel put on and who does good work?


44man,

I see that you didn't catch my point before. You have to "tune" a lever if it is .... not performing to expectation much as you would with a bolt rifle. But you have other factors to address.

Mine will shoot anywhere I want it to with 250 grainers or less. What did it take to get that to happen?

1. I had to use emery paper on a dowel to smooth up and open the front barrel band so that the barrel could lengthen in it as it heated without binding and pulling down as the band pivoted at the screw. This was machined REALY ROUGH and benefited by smoothing slightly. Thin barrels heat more quickly and then they lengthen. If it binds at the band, it bows the bore.

2. I had to relieve the sides on the stock just like a bolt rifle and I kept contact only at the front of the stock where the cap is located.

Failure to make those .... adjustments will give you the erratic accuracy you are experiencing. Mine went from a 4" performer to about 1" if I shoot slow. 2" if I just crank'em off.

[Cayoot]

Here are drawings of the bullet if you're interested in making a mold of your own. If you made a 4 cavity I want one.

Boomer :Fire:

Count me in for one or two also! I like that one!

[kidmma]

Interesting posts!
Here is my experience with a 16-1/4" Micro groove barrell.
I had cast some Lee bulets that I used to load for my Vaquero and used them in the Marlin with the short tube. I didn't use full house loads or bullets heavier than 240gr. The Lee bullets were sized at .429(not good in the .43? bore). My shots were hitting the target at 25yds but didn't look right. I could see from the bench without a spotting scope that some were hitting sideways.
After picking up some comercial cast .430s that changed to nice little groups(25yds). they are good at 50yds also but are quite low at 100yds of course.
Another interesting thing was I tried some loads with Pyrodex.
Filled the case enough to seat a Hornady 240gr SWC (swaged) on top. These made nice little clover leaf patterns at 25yds. Wouldn't recomend the Hornadys on a steady basis but it was suprising.
I have a few 300 grainers loaded for the wheel gun but haven't tried them yet in the Marlin.
The Marlin does shoot pretty well with 240s on top of 20gr of 2400. It's still not a 100yd deer round for me though.

Scott

[44man]

Bass, this little rifle has a 16" barrel and no front band. The magazine tube is held by a screw into a dovetaled fitting and there isn't much I can do with that to make it float. I have already relieved the forearm.

[Scrounger]

Bass, this little rifle has a 16" barrel and no front band. The magazine tube is held by a screw into a dovetaled fitting and there isn't much I can do with that to make it float. I have already relieved the forearm.

Change the screw hole into a slot so the tube can wiggle back and forth in the slot as the tube shrinks and grows but the width of the slot will keep the tube attached to the barrel.

[44man]

No need because the tube floats through the forearm and it can move in and out of the receiver. The barrel could grow 1/4" and the tube would move out with it. I also have the forearm relieved to give me a slight back and forth movement. I have nothing to hinder barrel movement. The forearm just contacts the barrel at the front with a tiny pressure.
This barrel is so short and stiff, I can't see doing more with it.
I am going to fire lap it next, I feel just the slightest drag in front of the chamber. Maybe .0005".

[MtGun44]

H110 and W296 are the same powder, two different distributors. The only
differences are lot to lot variation.

Bill