Has Anyone Made A Gas Check (Cap) Punch ?

[DoctorBill]

My new Lathe and Mini-Milling Machine are both calling to me to be used !

I just bought a Marlin Model of 1895 45-70 Lever Rifle, and until Obama comes for it, I'd
like to load some LEE Cast .459 Bullets with Gas Checks (Caps).

However, I thought a GREAT project for my Lathe would be to make my own Gas Cap Puncher
and use it with Aluminum Pop Can Metal (Cheaper than a Washington Politician).

So - has anyone made their own ?

I know the FreeChex III guy sells (sold) them, but I want's ta make it myself !

Any plans, diagrams or photos available ?

DoctorBill

[joesig]

I used the PDF at this link. This was written by Edward Smith. (Thank you Mr. Smith)

xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/19270735/1972319883/name/Check-Maker1%262.pdf

[DoctorBill]

Had problem getting the link thru, but got it -
pasted into Google and let that find it - Lord I DO LIKE Google !

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/19270735/1972319883/name/Check-Maker1%262.pdf

Google could find the Dead Sea Scrolls and give you a map !

Those are some darned good plans ! Holy Mackerel !
Even has how to calculate the size disc to cut before shaping it to a cup.

Thank you so much, "joesig" !

DoctorBill

[arjacobson]

I have made up bunches of these. Pm me if you want some tips on how to do the various operations. Basically Drill and then bore the top first. Then machine the cutting stem to just fit the bored hole. Without taking the stem out of the lathe drill and bore the short I.D. When everything is to size and polished up nice you can take the stem out of the lathe and flip it end for end. Drill for the clearance(so the checks will fall out freely) I then make the short forming spud that fits in the top pc. I use a bandsaw and watch the cut carefully for the material slot. A flashlight helps with this.. drill and tap for setscrews.. Set your forming spud to about .010 above bandsawed slot.

[DoctorBill]

Well, arjacobson, I think I now understand how this punch works
BUT I am fairly sure that my Novice Understanding of my new Lathe would
not get this made.

This thing cuts the big disk on the upward stroke then carries the disk up to the piston
which swages the cup shape pushing it down and then drops down the Punch Tube and out
the bottom......took me a while to get this....I am a Chemist, not a machinist.

http://s24.postimg.org/50rb7i3qd/Figure_01b_pdf.jpg

A very clever design !

How did he cut that cone shape at the bottom ? Is it necessary ? Wouldn't a milled
out side slot work the same?

Not too confident I can make it though.

Basically, I would like to make the Punch for the Primary Disks - kind of like
I made punches for Card Disks to place over BP in BP Cartridges using an RCBS Press.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?163477-How-do-you-make-a-Paper-Punch-for-45-70-Discs
.....or
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?176860-A-Different-Kind-of-Card-Punch-for-Reloading-a-30-Cal-Nagant-Revolver

http://s19.postimage.org/nv3v5f44j/Picture_of_Disk_Punch.jpg

Using 7/8" Threaded Rod and pushing Aluminum Pop Can strips into the punch.

Once I have a Butt-Load of Pop Can Disks made, then I was thinking of
resetting my RCBS Press with the second punch which would form the cups
by swaging the pre-cut disks - also using 7/8" threaded rod.

http://s7.postimg.org/wd6x84kq3/Cup_Swager.jpg

DoctorBill

[blikseme300]

DoctorBill,

The cone shape is imparted by the end of the drill bit. Don't underestimate your abilities and capability to learn how to do these things. Ask away here when you are unsure or are stuck. These are quite a number of folks here that will help you.

[longbow]

Doctor Bill:

I made a very simple gas check maker that works quite well and is easy to make. it is a little basic and some might say crude... but it works well.

info here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43802&d=1335386592

Look at posts #36, #37 and #40 by edsmith for his simple checkmaker and here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150997-hand-tool-made-check-maker/page3

post #44 for my simple check maker.

Like I said, simple, maybe crude but perfectly functional and I use aluminum from old gutters at 0.019" thick ~ with the hammer, one can apply enough "whack" that the thick aluminum is not a problem and simply extrudes a deeper cup.

Ed provided very good info for gas check and shank sizes in his write up.

I am sure you will be able to make one of these and be producing good checks in no time!

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

My new Lathe and Mini-Milling Machine are both calling to me to be used !

I just bought a Marlin Model of 1895 45-70 Lever Rifle, and until Obama comes for it, I'd
like to load some LEE Cast .459 Bullets with Gas Checks (Caps).

However, I thought a GREAT project for my Lathe would be to make my own Gas Cap Puncher
and use it with Aluminum Pop Can Metal (Cheaper than a Washington Politician).

So - has anyone made their own ?

I know the FreeChex III guy sells (sold) them, but I want's ta make it myself !

Any plans, diagrams or photos available ?

DoctorBill

If that is the hollow base one then appying a check is asking for "trouble".

[jmorris]

I made this punch to punch 1 3/16 holes in aluminum so long ago I don't even remember what it was used for in the first place (hate that because its the start of CRS).

Its pneumatic and operates by foot pedal. It uses dies that I had and the band clamp holds the bottom part of the die in a pipe welded to the base that has a saw cut in it so the clamp can tighten it and the bolt holds the top die in the adapter to the ram.

Sorry for the sideways photo.

It would work to punch the disk then swap dies to make the cup.

[DoctorBill]

This is what I am making this Gas Check Punch for.

Cast bullets from 0.457 LEE C457-500-F for use in my Marlin Model of 1895 Lever Rifle.

http://s10.postimg.org/5pwz7s4i1/LEE_459_RNFT.jpg

The calculations are in the photo.

I could probably get away with using a 5/8 inch drill. No ?

I will be using Pop Can Metal which is 0.004" where I live.

DoctorBill

PS - PLEASE NOTE - This is a long and rambling Thread, BUT after a
while there are discussions about THREADING - which may be useful
to Newbies at Lathe workings. (added way after starting this Thread).

[DoctorBill]

Several Questions

1. Is ALL Aluminum Beverage Can metal of the same thickness ?

Aluminum Pop Cans measure out to 0.004" thick.
Since I don't drink Beer in cans, I don't know about Beer Can Aluminum.

If Beer Can Aluminum is 0.006, perhaps, I 'could' start drinking Beer from Cans.....

And a thought just came into my head....

2. Would a card disk under the bullet not keep the burning powder from zapping
the lead bullet sufficiently well ?

It is what I was doing for Paper Patched Bullets !

Is this Aluminum Bullet End Cap really necessary ?

3. Why do we make these punches with the weakest portion on top ?
The force is against the weakened upper slot where most of the metal
has been cut thru to feed the stock metal or card !

Why not invert the punch and use the weakest part of the punch as the "guide"
for the ram ? You don't HAVE to screw the DIE in from the top (Tradition?)

http://s22.postimg.org/56yt11pwh/Inverted_Punch_00.jpg

Here you would screw this into the (RCBS) Press from the bottom side
and the Punch would go into the RAM slot and the force would be against
the (now) Top of the slot and the weak bottom portion would act as the
"guide" for the Puncher Rod.

This way would allow one to make punches with thinner outer walls.

The disks should stack up and come out the top.

I "PhotoShop'ed" this idea using a Card Punch I made for my Martin-Henry
BP Cartridges. I think it should work and be much stronger.

http://s22.postimg.org/3mni2sdb5/Inverted_Punch.jpg

One could also Mill, Grind or Saw out both sides leaving TWO metal pillars to
support the guide section - of course you'd have to cut your metal or
card material into strips to punch it.

http://s3.postimg.org/j9ie9ti2r/Milled_Out_Sides.jpg

Am I way out in Left Field with this - do I make any sense ?

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Where did everybody go ?

I appear to be all alone.....

DoctorBill

[blikseme300]

We are still here. Life keeps getting in the way of our hobbies... I am interested in making a GC tool since I can and my stock of 30cal is running low with no stock at any of the retailers. I like the design which will make the check in one stroke. I will probably order material this week to be able to start some time next week as I will be out of town through the coming weekend on business.

[DoctorBill]

blikseme300 - The dual function punch looks nice, but methinks it is a bit
beyond my abilities right now.
I am just getting used to taking more than 0.002" cuts on my Lathe !
Actually did 0.005" yesterday making the Punch portion.

My machinist friend grins at me when I say that - he likes 0.015" cuts or even more !
The swarf flies around and comes off in great swirls when he Lathes !
Me - I'm C. S. at this point.

I am concerned that a 5/8" drill hole will punch an Aluminum Disk too large
for these LEE 0.457 Cast Bullet Gas Checks.

I don't have a 39/64" or 15.5 mm drill to make them a smidgen smaller, just an
old 5/8" Silver & Deming Drill.....

Just about have the Punch body done - need to 5/8 drill it through and then
thread it for 1.25 x 12 for the RCBS Press.

http://s21.postimg.org/rihje62qv/Disk_Punch_Body_A.jpg

I think I will Mill out the side slots as mentioned in my previous post.
Haven't Milled anything yet....

Then I need to make the Punch Ram to punch out the disks.

I 'think' I have threading down....scary, but I've done two threadings and
they work OK.

After that, I will make the cup forming punch plate and puncher.
Wish I had a source of Aluminum slightly bigger than 0.004" pop can metal.
I have some 0.015 Sheet Aluminum - too thick.

I spend a lot of time thinking about stuff I try to make 'cause I have screwed
up too many things by going too fast !

Lot of Fun though !

DoctorBill

PS - Been saving my iron swarf and making Iron (Fe) Oxide (Rust) out of it
by adding water in an open plastic bag. Rusts fast.
http://s19.postimg.org/66kcwuwwz/Swarf_to_Iron_Oxide.jpg
Also saving my Aluminum swarf. (or pop can metal cut up fine)
Mix one weight of Aluminum chips and two weights of DRY Rust (Iron Oxide),
mix well and ignite the mix with a torch. THERMITE ! Stand Back !
http://s19.postimg.org/3nynw6b6r/Thermite_Rxn.jpg
Will work with most Metal Oxides.

[arjacobson]

Use a smaller drill and bore to size using a boring bar.

[DoctorBill]

Too Late ! Done. Besides - it is 2.8" long !

Just finishing making it look pretty.....

http://s19.postimg.org/s70pdhfkz/Making_Pretty.jpg

In case someone asks, I don't have a dead or live Center that will take 5/8"......

DoctorBill

[Chicken Thief]

Them there Lee boolits thay are designed for gaschecks right?

Then im afraid i have to spoil your work, because they will need a check of normal dimensions ie.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Gas_Check_Dimensions_zps97c5fad6.gif

I just measured a Hornady check and it is .017" thickness.

If i take your data then:
Boolit shank = .425"
Pop can = .004"
Finished check = .425 + 2 x .004 = .433" That is no where near enough for a 45 cal boolit!

Standard check = .425 + 2 x .017 = .459"

There is no point in applying a check that is to small, it will never scrape against the barrel and do any gas sealing at all.

[DoctorBill]

Chicken Thief - Yes, the Bullets are designed for Gas Checks and the base
is 0.425" diameter. The "skirt" is ~ 0.10" high.

What I have made so far is still OK, I would just need to cut thicker Disks.

The Cap Forming Die dimensions depends on the Aluminum Sheet thickness,
however, and I have not made THAT part yet.....

I do have a "Roll" of Sheet Aluminum that is thicker - if I remember, it is
0.015" thick.

Wonder how hard it is to punch ?

Some thoughts come to my fevered, Lead fumes damaged brain......

I thought that Edward Smith advertised on e-bay that his die used Pop Can
Aluminum to make Gas Checks.
Going to his pdf document - I see he calls for 0.016" Aluminum Sheet for
45 cal.

Also, from what I have read, the high heat capacity of lead makes it unlikely that
any will get hot fast enough to melt when fired out of a gun.

So someone might ask, "Then why in the world are you making Gas Checks ?"

Because I am not sure that gunpowder has time to melt the end of the bullet !
AND - I needed a project to do.

Now.....how many people have shot off Cast Bullets w/o Gas Checks and recovered
the bullet to SEE if the end had any melting damage ?

If anyone knows of DATA (not hearsay, word of mouth, or opinions) showing that
Cast Bullets get their butts melted, please reply here with the links or photocopies.
FACTUAL Data sure would be nice - so much is OPINION, not facts...."sounds like
a good idea..."

Why would LEE sell Molds for 50 Cal Lead Slugs w/o a skirt for Gas Caps if the
end suffers heat damage.

Chicken Thief - Thanks for the information ! Not sure this won't work though.
If it protects the Bullet enough to get it out the barrel w/o damage (?).
I do want to find better Gas Cap Aluminum, though (cheap).

Lastly - If none of this works, I still had fun making the stuff !

DoctorBill

[DLCTEX]

The gas check serves to prevent gas cutting of the boolit, not melting from heat. It also is more resistant to stripping by the rifling, which requires a tight fit to resist spinning on the boolit.

[Chicken Thief]

Doc Bill

Think of it this way:
The powder burn occurs in @1 millisecond ot 1/1000 of a second.
Take an acetylene torch (3500degC ~ 6330degF) and pass it over your hand as fast as you possibly can. You wont get burnt and that is way more than a millisecond! The hairs will perish but no burn.

What the check does is this:
It acts like a jacket and will perform a wital function as a gas seal in high power loads. For this to work it is imperative that it fits the bore 100%.

[longbow]

I will take a look in my recovered boolit bin to see what I have. Not sure if I still have any but I did recover some Lyman 31141's shot from my .308 both with and without gas check and I had some SEVERE gas cutting without gas checks. These boolits were shot into heavy wet snow so were virtually undamaged by impact.

Yeah, the lead does not actually melt, it is stripped away by the high pressure gas blowing by. Also, as what Chicken Thief says, if you use a gas check that doesn't seal the bore then you will very likely get similar gas cutting to what you get with no gas check.

Now, having said that, a lot depends on powder choice, pressure curve and max. pressure. I shoot lots of .44 mag plain base form my rifle using full house "J" bullet loads and have almost no leading. However, I find that my .30 cal. guns are not as easy to load for with PB boolits and seem to need a gas check even at lower pressures to perform well. Part of that may be the faster twist and the pressure curves. That much is beyond me.

Anyway, if I can find a good example of a gas cut boolit I will post photos.

Longbow

[DoctorBill]

longbow - Absolutely GREAT if you can SHOW what is said about the so called "gas cutting"
effect on a bullet ! Something what scientists would call DATA, not "sounds good to me" stuff.

As to the powder - yes, that "sounds good to me" !

I - being an old phart - like to use reduced loads to save my old man shoulder.
A good load for me is either Black Powder (or a substitute) or TRAIL BOSS which
is a bulkier powder giving a nice round w/o beating one's shoulder to pieces !

So - I am not very worried about 'gas cutting' with my loads.

Even so - I wanted a Lathe/Milling project and the Aluminum Gas Cap devices
seemed a likely candidate.

Chick Thief - YOU can pass an Oxy-Acetylene torsch over the back of your hand,
if you want ! Ha ! lol No way I would do THAT !
I do do it in my Chemistry Class to show the difference between a normal flame
and STEAM - which will burn the stink out of you IMMEDIATELY !

As above, my loads are low power.
Were I to shoot hot loads, then I'd go for Copper Jacketed bullets !

So...I am eagerly awaiting some EVIDENCE of actual 'gas cutting' to be
posted here !

BTW - PP Cast Bullets use a CARD DISK between the Bullet and the Powder
and from what I read (Paul Mathews) is quite sufficient to protect the bullet
base from damage.

Onward ! "Different Strokes for Different Folk. Whatever floats your Boat."

DoctorBill

[longbow]

DoctorBill:

Nope, haven't looked for an examples of gas cutting yet but will shortly. I know 303guy posted some a while back and they looked a lot like what I had (and hope I still have). The severe examples almost had the entire driving bands "smoothed" off.

On another note, controversial as it is, I use COW filler under PB boolits from my home made moulds. Without filler they tend to suffer gas cutting at anything beyond mild loads but will filler they can be pushed harder though I have not really ventured into extreme cast boolit velocity... yet.

I am lazy and don't like applying gas checks and also cheap so don't like paying for them. I made my own gas check maker to solve the cheap part but it doesn't solve lazy. Filler helps there as it is pretty easy to add COW to mid neck then seat a boolit. One does have to work up loads from scratch though! You can't just go adding filler into any old load.

I recently got my best groups ever from my No. 5 Lee Enfield using smooth sided then knurled boolits from my home made mould with COW under the boolit. Groups were running a bit over an inch at 50 yards which so far is better than I have managed with commercial moulds and gas checked boolits.

if you are running mild loads you probably do not need a gas check though as you say, making stuff is fun.

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

Found a 25 cal and a 32 cal in the heap.
No burning/Melting at all.
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/R0011368_zpse4e29a15.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/R0011369_zps4848985c.jpg

[longbow]

Well, I dug through my recovered boolit bin and I do not have any of the really bad .30 cal boolits but I did find a number of .44 boolits with gas cutting. Some of these are smooth boolits from a home made pushout mould and some and a couple are Lyman 429421's. It is pretty obvious which are which.

Here are the photos:

66970 66971

You can see smooth "gouges" along the lands (mostly) on the boolits (rifling groove) on several and what I call "nibbling" along the edges of the bases on others.

These are "left" and "right" photos with the top right boolit in both being a Lyman 429421.

From top left to right on "left" photo:

- fairly smooth boolit and not easy to see but there is a "gouge" from gas cutting where the flash shine is
- quite clear rifling with "nibbling" along the bottom edge
- bad gouge in the middle where gas cutting removed quite a swath of lead
- another with "nibbling" along the bottom edge
- Lyman 429421 with clear rifling

From bottom left to right on "left" photo:

- first three boolits all from home made mould show considerable "nibbling" along the bottom edge
- Lyman 429421 shows nibbling along the bottom edge
- next boolit shows a deep cut along the rifling just to the right of center
- far right bottom shows "nibbling" and a long gouge along the rifling centered in the photo

From left to right in "right" photo ~ bottom row:

- same boolit as above right below Lyman 429421 at top right ~ you can see another long gouge just right of center
- triangular gouging left, center and right on boolit lands
- fairly severe gas cutting all around the bottom
- next one doesn't show up real well but more gouging (if you zoom in you can see it if resolution on shrunk photos is good enough)

The Lyman 429421 casts about 0.002" under groove diameter and was almost always a problem with leading and gas cutting.

The boolits from the home made mould are about 0.002" over groove diameter and generally do not give me a problem with gas cutting unless I push them to max loads and with faster powders. IMR4227 is usually okay but Blue Dot was responsible for much of this gas cutting. I loaded up some max. loads with Blue Dot and did some penetration testing into wood. Most of these boolits are from that group.

For the most part not as severe as the .30 cal. boolits I can't find but some of these are pretty bad.

So that's what I've got for show 'n tell.

Longbow

[DoctorBill]

I saw some Aluminum Flashing rolls at Home Depot (1' x 7') for $8.

I don't know the thickness and NO ONE there had any calipers, so tomorrow
I will go back with my trusty Digital Calipers to see how thick it is.

Felt like maybe 20 to 15 thousands, but I'm not that good yet with my
"finger calipers". I know what 4 thousandths from Pop Cans feels like.

A metal place here in Spokane (ALCOBRA) wants $20 for a 1' x 6' x 0.020"
piece of soft Aluminum sheet. I figure that I might get 1200 Gas Caps out
of that if I cut 0.625" Dia Disks to make them out of. MOL

Wow ! - This may only be half the price of buying them made out of copper !

45 cal Hornady Gas Checks are $41 per 1,000 at Buffalo Arms in Idaho and they are back ordered.
Thank you so much Obama !

DoctorBill

[Chicken Thief]

I saw some Aluminum Flashing rolls at Home Depot (1' x 7') for $8.

I don't know the thickness and NO ONE there had any calipers, so tomorrow
I will go back with my trusty Digital Calipers to see how thick it is.

Felt like maybe 20 to 15 thousands, but I'm not that good yet with my
"finger calipers". I know what 4 thousandths from Pop Cans feels like.

A metal place here in Spokane (ALCOBRA) wants $20 for a 1' x 6' x 0.020"
piece of soft Aluminum sheet. I figure that I might get 1200 Gas Caps out
of that if I cut 0.625" Dia Disks to make them out of. MOL

Wow ! - This may only be half the price of buying them made out of copper !

45 cal Hornady Gas Checks are $41 per 1,000 at Buffalo Arms in Idaho and they are back ordered.
Thank you so much Obama !

DoctorBill

But you gets to do all the work yourself for that reduced price + doing the dies and burning gas for the aluhttp://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Blandet/Smilere/35-1.gif

[Cane_man]

dup post- del

[oldred]

I have been following this thread and find it very (extremely!) interesting but I have a question. My plan is to build a check maker for the Lee 459-500-3R which is a plain base bullet of non-check design. Could someone tell me what would the ideal dimensions be for the finished check? Metal thickness? ID before crimping?

[Cane_man]

Where did everybody go ?

I appear to be all alone.....

DoctorBill


DB, to add a little food for thought, I just made a plain base gas check maker to use with aluminum beer cans that will both punch and form with one stroke:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/PB2_zpsf0c0a0ee.jpg

this was not my idea, but what makes it different is that the nose of the punch forms the check and then cuts it, all i do is chuck the tool up in the lathe and hit the end of the die body with a rubber mallet and the checks come shooting out:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/PBGCPunchFormer_zps3e55fa36.jpg

i made the die body from some bronze i had laying around and the punch was turned from a $10 1/2" bit from home depot... i put a spring behind the die body and it pushes it back into place... a very simple and cost effective design

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/PB1_zpsc1c59f7f.jpg

as you can see these aren't picture perfect square cups, but more like little bowl shapes due to how the nose is shaped, but the boolit fits right in and the sides swage up when using the Lyman 45


btw - Edsmith mills out the cone shape of the punch base by using a tile bit!


"whatever blows your hair back"

[Cane_man]

I have been following this thread and find it very (extremely!) interesting but I have a question. My plan is to build a check maker for the Lee 459-500-3R which is a plain base bullet of non-check design. Could someone tell me what would the ideal dimensions be for the finished check? Metal thickness? ID before crimping?

this is what i did:

for the plain base check the disc OD = boolit OD + (2 x material thickness) + [3/4 x (2 x boolit base band height)]

hope that makes sense!

[longbow]

oldred:

You will want to use thin soda/beer can material of about 0.004" thick for checking PB boolits.

The finished check should have a slight flare (very slight) and be just large enough to slide onto the boolit then swage in in a sizer. The disk size for .45 cal. PD should be 0.537" according to my reference. That is the punched disk before forming.

Longbow

[Bulldogger]

Wow ! - This may only be half the price of buying them made out of copper !

45 cal Hornady Gas Checks are $41 per 1,000 at Buffalo Arms in Idaho and they are back ordered.
Thank you so much Obama !

DoctorBill

Good Ole' Barry is the U.S.'s #1 firearm and ammunition salesman of the year since late 2007 and counting. It's funny though, I can't recall ever seeing a figure in his "jobs" reports that credits ammunition and firearms manufacturing increases. For some strange reason his minions who gin up these reports focus on other areas.
I just wish he'd relax a bit, so's those of us that aren't jillionaires can afford some reloading and wildcatting components.
BDGR

[Bulldogger]

And now with a slightly more relevant reply.
1) I can't add anything to the discussion of proper thickness or gas cutting or all that, but I sure do love to read about it because...
2) I dream of having a lathe and mill and all that (and sadly, know where they are and see them every time I visit a retired machinist friend who would practically give them to me but I live in the city and spend all my $$ on child support and wah wah wah) so THANK YOU for posting these interesting pictures and descriptions!!!
and
3) What the H-E-double Hockey Sticks are you making Thermite for? I've always wanted to make Thermite, and PLEASE, PLEASE, post some pictures and/or videos of the finished product in action....

Bulldogger

[DoctorBill]

Been working....standing at the Lathe just kills my back ! Lord !

I cut a piece of hot rolled steel rod (has hard scale on it) down from 3/4"
to 0.628" for the Punch Ram. I Muriatic acid wash off the scale first.

http://s19.postimg.org/dkmpsizvn/Making_The_Punch_Ram.jpg

After getting REAL close, I filed and sanded to where it just went in a ways,
then lapped with Flitz Metal Polish to where it fits REAL nice in the Punch Body.

http://s19.postimg.org/vbyc6zfab/Punch_Ram_Almost_There.jpg

I presume some of you 'old hands' at metal working are cringing at my amateur
work, but this is how I am going at it. Hot Rolled Steel is CHEAP and easy to cut.

The body comes from a piece of metal that Buckshot sent to me when I got my Lathe.

I will now Thread the Punch Body to 12 TPI (1.25 inch for the RCBS Press),
cut a Shell Holder end button in the Punch Ram, then Cut TWO slots in the
Punch Body to slide the Aluminum Strips thru (using my Harbor Freight Band Saw).

As I said previously, I intend to mount this Punch Body upside down from normal
to cut with the ram against the strong portion of the Punch Body instead of the
norm of punching against the weaker portion on top of the slot.
Does that explanation make sense ? See post # 11
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?194217-Has-Anyone-Made-A-Gas-Check-(Cap)-Punch&p=2157701&viewfull=1#post2157701

I hope some of you are getting some good or at least some entertainment out of
these posts. Get a Lathe - even a cheap one - it is a blast !

My back is killing me - need a back brace to stand at the Lathe for any length of time !

DoctorBill

PS - Bulldogger - I'm a Chemist and at heart a small boy who likes to phart
around making explosions, fire, and sparks ! Instead of tossing my swarf, I thought
"why not make something from it ?" If it works, I will post pictures here.
I have a LOT of Steel swarf but not much Aluminum swarf.....

[Cane_man]

^^^ how do you turn threads on your lathe? i have a small bench top lathe but never learned how to do it...

[DoctorBill]

Cane Man - Holy Thread cutting Batman ! Are you serious ?!

There are many Links on the internet and on You Tube about that subject.

As for me - I turn the Chuck by hand to thread because I am Chicken S__t to
use the lead Screw Feed.... So I made a "Hand Crank" that I slip into the
other end and turn the work by hand. It feeds too fast for me !

http://s19.postimg.org/raqwc6ioz/Hand_Crank_A.jpg

Bought a used Hand Crank at a local Machine Store - Made into this.

http://s19.postimg.org/v5pp10cgz/Crank_Handle_X.jpg

I split the pipe end and it is held in place by a sliding nut that expands inside
the Main Shaft.

http://s19.postimg.org/lb358ixwj/Pin_In_RAM.jpg

http://s19.postimg.org/mrenqo0tf/The_Whole_Ball_of_Wax.jpg

All this is 'somewhere' in this forum - can't remember the link though !

If you want to do this (?) Google up the following, ....threading+hand+crank+lathe

I DO NOT disengage the cutting tool, but back up BY HAND and then continue
cutting by advancing the Top Slide.

If you lose the correct feed setting by disengaging the feed lever, then bad things
can happen.....There is a "Threading Dial" which I have yet to master. Scary.

The Top Slide is set to 29°. You need a 60° cutting tool and a 60° Center Gauge
to make sure the tool is set correctly.

Set ting it up is correctly is of paramount importance or you'll screw it up (no pun
intended).

Other than that, I'd say, just start by doing threading on an Aluminum Rod of the
correct diameter and PRACTICE.
You Lathe should have the Driving Gear selection of Normal and Metric threads in
the manual. Different for each Lathe.

Good luck. It is not as bad as it looks when you are starting out, but practice on
some soft metal several times before trying anything that you have spent a lot
of time on making.
Several people who frequent this forum will probably chime in - like Buckshot.

I have a "Master Machinist" friend who's brain I pick whenever I have serious questions.
If you know a machinist - pick his brain ! Most are only too happy to help you !

It's like they want you to learn Lathing and Milling - so that YOU TOO can spend
gozillions of bucks on Tooling like they have had to do !

DoctorBill

[Cane_man]

thank you DB, yes, youtube is your friend i should have looked there first...

[DoctorBill]

Right now, the biggest hassle for me is setting up the proper gears to get the TPI
I want. It is a PITA.

YOU may want to use the feed and indicator dial, but it feeds fairly fast and then
resetting the depth and using that indicator dial is too much for my feeble mind
to handle. My friend showed me but said, "Be careful !"
If you get it wrong, your work is destroyed.

I'd rather use the hand crank thingie and I spend A LOT OF TIME on the "setup".

DoctorBill

[Chicken Thief]

I have made a "complete" thread-gear list for my lathe with this:

Changewheels made by a Canuck bloke.
Can be downloaded here:
http://www.downloadplex.com/Windows/Education/Science/Specifications-changejs_238822.html

[Chicken Thief]

You load a list of wich gears you have and it calculates wich ones to use and how to place them

Here is a screendump of the intire user interface with a 14TPI calc.
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/Changewheels_zps90f19e02.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/Til%20andre/Changewheels_zps90f19e02.jpg.html)

[DoctorBill]

Cut the End Button for the Punch Ram that sets in the Reloading Press.

http://s19.postimg.org/8jtkfrdib/Punch_Ram_Press_Button.jpg

Was a lot of work with many pointed cutting bits as I am afraid to use
a cut-off bit. Had them grab. They made an awful Screeching....
I even saw my machinist friend have a cut off bit grab the work....he said
he doesn't like working with them either.

Now to either cut the slots in the Punch Body with my Harbor-Freight Band Saw
or thread the Die Body - hmmmm.

C.T. - I downloaded that program and a couple of other, too. Thank you !
I may just make a printout notebook with all the gears for each TPI - good idea !

Later - C.T. Can you explain what these things are !?
http://s19.postimg.org/a052xwgf7/Lathe_Change_Gear_Questions.jpg
What are E, F, G, and H ? Where can I find B ?
Mine is an ENCO 9" x 20" Chinese Lathe. What's an EMCO ?

Whoever wrote this has to be a Genius !

DoctorBill

PS - 4-13-13 The program is for Lathes w/o a Transmission ! BEWARE.

[Chicken Thief]

B: Is the advansement of the sleigh for one full revolition of the lead screw. How far will the tip of the steel travel for one rev.
E: I just set to zero
F: Gears are cut to a modul size. That way a small and a big gear can run together without grinding/wear. See this http://www.tech.plymouth.ac.uk/sme/desnotes/gears/nomen1.htm
G: The distance from center to center from your lead axle to your main axle. The combination of gears cant be smaller than that or else it wont engage the main axle because it is to short.
H: The max distance between the Lead screw axle and the top adjustable axle.

ENCO is a chinese copy of the Swiss made EMCO lathes.

Pic showing B lead screw (look in the manual for that value. Or measure one rev. it is a "standard" measure so dont worry)
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011374_zpsc6b5223f.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011374_zpsc6b5223f.jpg.html)

Pic showing G
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011372_zps4bdefbca.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011372_zps4bdefbca.jpg.html)

Pic showing H
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011373_zpsa4857efb.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011373_zpsa4857efb.jpg.html)

Pic showing how i set up mine
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/Changewheels2_zps2862135b.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/Til%20andre/Changewheels2_zps2862135b.jpg.html)

[DoctorBill]

Here is what I have....

http://s19.postimg.org/jie0pfgv7/Specs_My_Lathe.jpg

http://s19.postimg.org/oibgxdmhv/My_Gears.jpg

http://s19.postimg.org/qo5rrvpyb/Gear_Box.jpg

As I read it, my leads screw is 1.5 TPI.

Mine ALSO has NINE Transmission Settings in the Front !

DoctorBill

[Chicken Thief]

And so do i!

[DoctorBill]

Chicken Thief - If you have the same Lathe as mine, where did all those other
change gears come from ?

Mine.......28..30..36..40..42..45..60..80..etc

Yours (Post 43)

....20..24..30..33...35...40..45...50...52...60... 66...80...etc

I don't understand - BIG difference in the change gears in the chart you show in Post #43.

Is that your hand in the photos (with all that swarf underneath the Gear Side of the Lathe).

Do you have more than one Lathe ?

(Confused ) DoctorBill

[Cane_man]

chicken and DB, thanks for the help on figuring out the threads... once i understood how the gear threading chart corresponded to the gears i finally got it! you have to change out the gears per the chart to achieve the threading you are looking for, doh!

[DoctorBill]

I put a piece of paper over my oily, dirty ENCO 9" x 20" Lathe Leadscrew and rolled
a metal cylinder over it to make an imprint of the threads - then measured the TPI
with my calipers. The calipers flip back and forth between 0.999 and 1.000, BTW.

http://s19.postimg.org/67zcne52b/Leadscrew_Threads.jpg

Is it just me, or do YOU count 'over' 16 threads per inch. The Leadscrew IS 14.95 mm in diameter.

Why would they mix Metric (Diameter) with English (TPI) ? "T15 x 1.5 TPI" Is that "Normal" ?

The specs say 1.5 TPI......maybe they should write 15 TPI, more or less.....do I need new glasses ?

What are accepted deviations (+/-) on Machine Parts ?

1mm out of 15mm is 6.7% error !

http://s19.postimg.org/t1sawmtr7/Leadscrew_Threads_Rulers.jpg

If anyone is interested, I measured the travel of the Carriage for Ten Turns of the Leadscrew.

http://s19.postimg.org/8j205b57n/mm_per_turn.jpg

That comes out to 0.465mm (0.0183 inch) per one revolution of the ENCO 9x20 Leadscrew.

Could some of you Machinery Edumacated guys tell me what "Size" this Metric Leadscrew is ?
What is the designation ? Is it non-standard or standard size ?

I am guessing the "Pitch" is 0.465mm, but relating the designation of the screw to pitch
and mm/turn has me dumbfounded....Duh....?

DoctorBill

[Chicken Thief]

Yeah it should read 15 TPI.

Your lathe and mine are two way different beasts!
Mine is @ 7"x10" and weighs no more than @90lbs.
http://www.optimum-machines.com/products/lathes/d-180-x-300-vario/index.html

[DoctorBill]

I am, right now, very confused as to what we have been talking about as regards the Change Gears
Program that Chicken Thief gave us. C.T - Your Lathe does not have a "Transmission" ?

I have been measuring my ENCO 9x20 parameters to use in that program to give change wheels.

Does that program have provisions for the Lathe's Transmission ?

I have all the change wheel gears shown in my post, but also nine transmission gear positions.

My manual shows Gears AND Transmission Selection for Threading Dimensions.

I don't understand.

Which is more difficult to understand THIS Chart - - - - or - - - - -Egyptian Hieroglyphs ?

http://s19.postimg.org/90x5l5usj/Gear_Threading_Ratios.jpghttp://s19.postimg.org/imqq1glyb/Egyptian_Hieroglyphs.jpg

DoctorBill

BTW - It took me a while to figure this out ! I AM SLOW.....

To place the Change Gears on my ENCO, I now do the following and have 'less problems'.
The paper is essentially two thicknesses of computer paper - sets the gear to gear clearance.
Strange thing - THAT big 127 tooth gear is not perfectly round !

http://s19.postimg.org/kv4wist2b/Adjustment_Pivot_Points.jpg
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
http://s19.postimg.org/uid069bfn/Checking_The_TPI.jpg

Now I can do 8 thru 14 TPI w/o changing the Gears - just the transmission lever.

[Rick459]

DB...here's the check maker that i made using Ed Smith's diagrams. i mounted mine on a 1 ton arbor press. works great. good luck with your project. oh the discoloration that you see in the metal is from heat treating the check maker using oil.
Rick
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture021-2_zps87646888.jpg (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/rick4570/media/Picture021-2_zps87646888.jpg.html)

[oldred]

this is what i did:

for the plain base check the disc OD = boolit OD + (2 x material thickness) + [3/4 x (2 x boolit base band height)]

hope that makes sense!


You will want to use thin soda/beer can material of about 0.004" thick for checking PB boolits.

The finished check should have a slight flare (very slight) and be just large enough to slide onto the boolit then swage in in a sizer. The disk size for .45 cal. PD should be 0.537" according to my reference. That is the punched disk before forming.

Thanks guys that's exactly what I wanted to know, now to get off my duff and get this done!

[FrankG]

DB...here's the check maker that i made using Ed Smith's diagrams. i mounted mine on a 1 ton arbor press. works great. good luck with your project. oh the discoloration that you see in the metal is from heat treating the check maker using oil.
Rick
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture021-2_zps87646888.jpg (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/rick4570/media/Picture021-2_zps87646888.jpg.html)

Rick459
Where do your checks go once punched ?

[DoctorBill]

For anyone New to this..................

http://s19.postimg.org/wcpunzyg3/Change_Gears_for_8_to_14_TPI.jpg

The Metric Threads are done the same except the 127 has the 120
stacked on the outside instead of where the spacer is in the photo.

The bottom has the spacer cylinder on the inside.

Hope this helps someone. I printed this out to review now and then.
Better'n lookin' at that damned chart thing !

See Post #50 for adjusting the spacing of the gears.

DoctorBill

[Rick459]

Rick459
Where do your checks go once punched ?

Right Here......
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture023-1_zps3972ed0b.jpg (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/rick4570/media/Picture023-1_zps3972ed0b.jpg.html)

[DoctorBill]

What caliber are the Gas Caps in the photo for ?

What thickness of Aluminum are they being made from ?

DoctorBill

[Rick459]

the gas checks are for these....
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture022-1_zps14b5511c.jpg (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/rick4570/media/Picture022-1_zps14b5511c.jpg.html)
they are .338/06....the aluminum flashing is .010" thick.
Rick

[Cane_man]

looks sweet Rick, freakin atomic missiles!

DB - ya the hardest part of this threading thing is figuring out that dang chart that comes with your particular lathe and then identifying which gears match which letters... after that it doesn't seem like too big of a deal

[DoctorBill]

Cane Man - Yes, once you "get it" OK, but I don't thread very often and tend to forget
those details.

So I made that Picture with everything to remind me.

I HATE getting old ! My rifling is wearing out....

Here is my "Hand Cranking" setup that I use for threading.
http://s19.postimg.org/5ubst0p43/Hand_Crank_Threading.jpg

You guys who use the leadscrew advance, don't laugh, I'm new to this.... !

Here I am just beginning the 1.25" x 12 TPI threading of my Punch Die Body.
http://s19.postimg.org/ltugckl5v/Cutting_1_25_inch_x_12_TPI_Threads.jpg

I have a FIXED routine - if I mess it up, I mess up the work.

Take the Belt off the Lathe Drive - no use turning the motor too !
If the Hand crank is on, you could Seriously Kill Yourself in a messy way !
Square off the 60° bit to the work with a 60° Center Gauge.
Make sure the Compound is set to 29°.
Set up the Tail Stock with the Live or Dead Center for support.
Align the bit and approach the work until it just cuts a mark, then set it to the right side of the work, 1/2 in. out.
Depress the threading Lever and don't touch it again until you are done ! I tape it down.
Advance the Compound 5 thousands (remember - you are turning by hand !). **** note below
Turn the crank fast until the bit reaches the end of the threaded part on the left (your choice where).
Turn the Cross Slide Crank OUT one full turn (set it to Zero). This pulls the bit out so you can go backward.
Reverse the crank until the bit is back where you started.
Turn the Cross Slide Crank IN one full turn back to zero. Puts the bit depth back where it was.
Advance the Compound by 5 thousandths to make a new cut.
Turn the crank FAST until the bit reaches the end of the threaded part.

Repeat over and over until you have what you want. I lube with ATF - works great.
BTW - as you go in further, it gets harder so ease up on how deep you are cutting !
Remember - don't touch the Threading Lever until you are done ! Taping it helps remind you.

If you want to TEST your Threads, use a NUT of the appropriate size before taking
the work out of the Chuck - You'd lose your orientation....

Now you old timers can laugh !
If I had a REAL slow rpm setting, I'd use the Feed, but mine is just TOO fast for me.
Someday I might get a DC Motor.....etc.

DoctorBill

**** note...At 30° you are advancing TOWARD the work by 1/2 of what the
Compound setting says. TRIGONOMETRY
You are also advancing into the right side of the thread - taking off more metal with each advance.

[DoctorBill]

Finished....

Here I just finished trimming the ends to make it "Pretty" since it has
to pass my machinist friend's scrutiny.....and he's picky !

http://s19.postimg.org/9ghm5nvhf/Trimming_The_Ends.jpg

All done -

http://s19.postimg.org/bmbx05yxv/All_Done.jpg

And now to pass THE TEST......

http://s19.postimg.org/rad46yejn/In_RCBS_Press.jpg

'T worketh !

Now I have to make the slots for the Aluminum strips and the Disk Punch
(one half) of this project will be overs.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

I am hoping this doesn't turn out to be a hunk of garbage scrap metal.....

Cutting the two slots on my H-F Band Saw.
http://s19.postimg.org/grhpvj19f/Cutting_the_Slots_A.jpg

Cutting the other side.
http://s19.postimg.org/mgxyfu7fn/Cutting_the_Slots_B.jpg

End result - needs to be finished with a hacksaw blade by hand.
http://s19.postimg.org/79hyvhfkz/Cutting_the_Slots_C.jpg

i.e. the "Slot" has to be widened manually by cutting ACROSS the
two slots,
Something I missed in my original diagram - didn't see THAT when I designed it.
Guess I'll go eat worms.

I am surprised none of you machinists caught that.

I know - you wanted me to discover it myself......lol

http://s19.postimg.org/7arwowher/Cutting_Across_The_Slots.jpg

CAREFUL ! That last part cuts real fast !

http://s19.postimg.org/naak8gdgj/Slot_Size.jpg

DoctorBill

[Rick459]

DoctorBill,
instead of cutting across the two slot's find a small file that will pass through the slot and open up both sides a little ways wider that the hole so it will support both sides of the aluminum strip when you slide it through. you will have more support with the two leg's still standing when you try to cut the check with the punch. hope i make sense. you do fine work Doc.
Rick

[Rick459]

i typed tooo slow...

[DoctorBill]

http://s19.postimg.org/tqjiyjm03/Disks_Aluminum.jpg

I used a Plastic Hammer - the Ram is tight now - have to re-hone it....

Should regrind the Punch Edge to a slight angle so it bites along one edge
first like a paper punch ram is made.

Later....re-ground the Punch Ram End as below and it cuts 10x easier !

http://s19.postimg.org/vjmfmv76r/Puncher_End_Curve.jpg

DoctorBill

PS - Rick459 - THAT was the whole idea from the beginning.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?194217-Has-Anyone-Made-A-Gas-Check-(Cap)-Punch&p=2157701&viewfull=1#post2157701

[Cane_man]

looking good DB, not bad for an old dr. phart :) ... did you make this punch out of aluminum?

and............ weren't you supposed to taper the end a little?

[DoctorBill]

Cane Man - "did you make this punch out of aluminum?"

Steel - Who would make a punch out of Aluminum ?

".... weren't you supposed to taper the end a little?"

Why do that ?

It needs re-honing to make it operate smooooothly.....

Yes - I am amazed that it works !

DoctorBill

[Cane_man]

Who would make a punch out of Aluminum ?

i did see that the honorable Edsmith (CB forum member) made some of his parts out of aluminum, just curious if you did as well...


".... weren't you supposed to taper the end a little?"

Why do that ?

some bolts or threaded rods are slightly tapered near the end, makes it easier to get the nut on for threading... thought it would be easy to do here, just put a little taper on the rod before you thread it... no biggie, looks like it is working just fine...

[Rick459]

nice clean job Doc.

[DoctorBill]

Now comes the "Forming Punch"

Have to think about THAT a bit.

I believe I will make it for use on my 1/2 ton Arbor Press.

The "Male" part of the Cup Forming Die is fairly easy.
Bullet's end diameter.

The Female Portion's hole diameter should depend on the metal thickness
of the Disks I am using.

The Female Portion has to take into account the Bullet's end diameter plus
2x the metal Disk Thickness or else it will cut the metal instead of forming it.

I may have to make several Female Former Parts just to see how my Gas Caps
work out, then settle for the best one - then make a "Pretty" one that is easy to use.

http://s19.postimg.org/p62egq8mb/Holed_Strips.jpg

Have to figure out the marks to put on the Aluminum Strips to "Index" the
punching process - can't see what I am doing.

DoctorBill

[Cane_man]

Edsmith has a good formula is his pdf on how to determine the correct check diameter (the female hole- uh... you know what i mean)

do your discs fall out the top and collect below in dat green "catcher"?

are you going to harden the punch tip when you are finished with it?

[FrankG]

You need to know the bullet base diameter , bullet major diameter then choose material thickness needed .

[Chicken Thief]

Dumd me but, why didnt you just saw right through so only one side was attached?
The top only has to steer the foil and do not need any strength.

Heres how i made mine:

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011380_zps2ef10556.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011380_zps2ef10556.jpg.html)
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011381_zps14aab2c5.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011381_zps14aab2c5.jpg.html)
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011384_zpsebe9cbd3.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011384_zpsebe9cbd3.jpg.html)
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011383_zps419838ff.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011383_zps419838ff.jpg.html)

Now i can just trim the edge of the foil and pound on again.

[DoctorBill]

Chicken Thief - Why THAT Handle ?

"The top only has to steer the foil and do(es) not need any strength." - I don't think so !

The top of YOUR punch needs to be strong because when you ram the punch
upward, the shearing effect is AGAINST the top portion and the way you
have it, the force is against that one side part that you did not cut thru.

With a 'pillar' on both sides there is no rotational torque on the part that
you are pressing against. Your top part may bend at an angle.
Your uncut pillar can act as a hinge if enough force is applied.
Did that make sense ?

I decided to shear against the portion with the threads by going in the
opposite direction and use that "top" portion as the 'guide' for the punch
ram. No rotational torque (redundant ?) on the uncut pillar.

I guess that yours is strong enough if you don't punch out really thick
Aluminum. If it starts to bind on the punch thru, then I'd bet it bent slightly
and is no longer aligned with the ram.

OK ? Did I explain it, or make it more undecipherable ?

Other question from Cane Man - The steel for the ram was Hot Rolled
Rod.
Would that already be hard or do you think I need to heat it cherry red and
let it cool in air to further harden it ? ... or temper it, also ?

I am only punching out Aluminum and probably no more than 1,000 at most.
I don't shoot that much !

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Found a nice block of Steel that could have four different size or type or metal
thicknesses Gas Check Formers made in one block for use on an Arbor Press !

http://s19.postimg.org/5fjd2cdnn/Possibilities.jpg

My intention is to make this in various inner diameters (Female Portion).

http://s19.postimg.org/4icxth25f/Forming_Die_A.jpg

Started drilling the Female Portion today - after Muriatic Acid rust removal...

http://s19.postimg.org/tcwfnjmzn/Female_Forming_Part.jpg

The marker holes I will use for later Punches. Used my DRO's to place them.
Love those cheap DRO's on e-bay ($35 ea).

I use ATF as a cutting fluid.

I need to buy some short Screw or Stub Drills - this Mini-Mill is small.
Damned glad I found it (used) though !

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

WHERE is everyone ? !

Watching TV ? Oprah Winfree or CNN ? Spongebob Squarepants ?

Me ? I'm drilling and drinking a beer and picking up this darned Swarf
that gets EVERYWHERE ! Even into my socks....

http://s19.postimg.org/jz4a8zaxv/Magnet_on_a_Stick.jpg

QUESTION - I am going to turn some 3/4 inch Hot Rolled Steel on the Lathe
after I dissolve the scale off with Muriatic Acid.

It is not quite ROUND.

How do I turn it without having it round to start with - how do I get to the center
for the Live Center to hold it ? How do I get it round if it isn't round to begin with ?

DoctorBill

PS - Look at this...fatality with a Lathe (no gruesome photos).
http://www.lni.wa.gov/Safety/Research/FACE/Files/LatheStruckByBar.pdf

[DoctorBill]

What am I doing wrong here, you machinist guys ? !

http://s19.postimg.org/ltugckl5v/Cutting_1_25_inch_x_12_TPI_Threads.jpg
.
. Don't scroll down yet ! What am I doing wrong ? Hmmmm ?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I just realized something !
Looking an internet link on How To Work On a Lathe,

http://www.autonopedia.org/crafts_and_technology/Metal_work/Metalworking-The_Basics/13_The%20Lathe.html

I saw a diagram of threading....I thought - THAT's wrong.....using the wrong compound angle !

Nope....I (me) have been setting the wrong 29° ! I need to set 61° on my Compound !

http://s19.postimg.org/pbt4n3yub/Threading_Angle.jpg

Why did no one see that ? Hmmmm ?

All the Manuals say to set the Angle to 29° - Is MY Lathe angle dial screwed up ?

I am surprised that my threads have even worked at all !

They don't look like LEE's Die Threads and even my Machinist Friend never mentioned
about my threads....WOW !

http://s19.postimg.org/swp06c3dv/Boogered_Up_Threads.jpg

I feel like an IDIOT now. You can open a window but you can't make someone see out of it.

DoctorBill

[Cane_man]

alcohol and machinery? come on DB, not a good mix :(

i tried threading tonight on my 7x12 benchtop lathe... massive FAIL! i could only advance the tool about 0.001 per pass or it would lock up, dont ask how i found out this limitation... i will salvage this disaster but i did learn some good lessons, and the gear change for the particular thread i was after was a PITA...

[DoctorBill]

Cane Man - One Beer (about all I can handle) doesn't a drunkard make....

http://s19.postimg.org/e20es5tsz/Old_Man.jpg

Obviously, I am not anyone to comment on your threading problem

Perhaps if you take a digital picture of your set up, someone here could help. (?)

I tried my first threading on Aluminum Rod.
Once I got that worked out, I threaded an Aluminum Rod about two inches and it worked.
I had trouble with the Threading Dial business and that's why I went to the Hand Crank.

BTW - This is an informative YouTube link...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfwdsBYJN34
and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNajMA4I20A

The Change Gears are a true hassle to "change out" - but after doing it several times now,
it isn't so bad. I printed out the processes that are important and review them before
I do it again months later. I have a lousy memory for detail.

So - if you could photograph your setup, maybe you could get help here....

DoctorBill

Does anyone have a used MT2 Bull Nose Live Center they'd sell ?

[Cane_man]

no worries DB just giving you the needle :) i have been known to tip a few myself

thanks for the links i will check them out later, licking my wounds now and regrouping, i will get it eventually...

[Cane_man]

well db, if i cant thread with my wimpy bench top lathe then i may cheat and get a reloading die "blank" for $12.50 and go from there:

http://shop.pacifictoolandgauge.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=944

http://shop.pacifictoolandgauge.com/images/Die-Blank-EXAMPLE.png

[DoctorBill]

Why won't you show us, with some photos, what your threading set up looks like ?

When you attempted to thread, what did you have set up...what machine do you have ?

What didn't work ? What part ?

No worries, Mate. The guys here can get you to where you want to go !

http://s19.postimg.org/tvj5dukv7/We_Can_Help_You.jpg

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

I finished turning the Punch Ram today...
http://s19.postimg.org/fdly5utk3/Turning_the_Former_Punch_A.jpg

and honed the ram to the die and tried it.....on the Arbor Press.
http://s19.postimg.org/3prwbb4f7/Pop_Can_Gas_Caps.jpg

It forms OK with 0.004" Aluminum Pop Can Metal, but cuts thru the 0.013" Aluminum
Sheeting I have.
There should be plenty of room for the 13 thou Aluminum to swag ! (?)
16 thou for the metal to fit in there.

I have to open up the bottom hole or ease the edge of the inner hole or ease the edge
of the Ram Punch at the bottom.

Don't know which would work ?

DoctorBill

[Cane_man]

Why won't you show us, with some photos, what your threading set up looks like ?

When you attempted to thread, what did you have set up...what machine do you have ?

What didn't work ? What part ?

No worries, Mate. The guys here can get you to where you want to go !

DoctorBill


db, i am putting the threading off for the moment because with the edmsith design i am using i dont need threads for it and i can still use it in my press... the threading is for a swage die project i am working next...

i finished the base tonight, turned out OK considering i dont have a mill and i had to use a rat tail file to make the ejection slot for the gas checks after they are punched and formed:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/base_zps86fc33ab.jpg


the punch looks great... are you going to heat treat the tip? just put a propane torch on it until it just starts to turn orange/red then quench in water...

[DoctorBill]

The metal that I am using is Hot Rolled "Mild Steel" with scale which I am told
means it has no Carbon, thus won't harden up.

What is left is "Case hardening". Been trying to find Kasenit or Cherry Red at
ENCO or Grizzly, but nothing in their catalogs or web sites.
Nobody in Spokane even knows what Case Hardening is - I must be awful old !

E-Bay sells Potassium Ferrocyanide which is pretty much what Kasenit was.
Guess it isn't made any more.....(?)
Can't buy chemicals with this Draconian Government.

My friend Gary, the machinist, says they used to use Bone Charcoal.
I'll just go down to Safeway and buy some ! lol

This company has Cherry Red for $10 less per lb than Midway !
http://usaknifemaker.com/ Just ordered a pound.

Gary kinda thinks I'm nuts for spending the time working Mild Steel.
I had it and it is cheap. I'm cheap. It is easy to work on. Easy is good.

I remember that Gary said I can use Bolts as a Raw Material - very good steel.
So at 40¢ a pound, I got several BIG "Honkers" at Pacific Steel here.

http://s19.postimg.org/t7ew8nbj7/Bolts.jpg

Cane Man - I too bought a 6' piece of threaded steel rod in 7/8 to make
some Dies. That was before I knew how to thread HA'ed.

You won't learn if you don't do.

DoctorBill

[longbow]

DoctorBill:

you can get some case hardening by getting a can big enough for you part, packing it with sawdust or other organic powder then seal it all up and bake it for several hours in a BBQ or something that will heat the steel to red temperature. Carbon will diffuse into the mild steel part. Take the "can" apart while everything is still hot and the part is red then drop into water.

That will produce a case hardened part. probably thin case but usable. I made a reamer once out of something less than high carbon steel so it wouldn't harden up as much as needed so I did the above and it worked fine. had I bee able to find Kasenite, I would have used it. Anyway, the old timers did it with sawdust and such. Colour case hardening was apparently done with leather and bonemeal packing.

It is pretty simple and may salvage your work.

As for bolts, it depends on grade. Grade 8 bolts can be hardened up very nicely. I use old Mazda head bolts for reamers and they work very well.

Longbow

[DoctorBill]

Been going back to the Ed Smith pdf file
http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/19270735/1972319883/name/Check-Maker1%262.pdf
and I don't see that he beveled the edges of the 'Female' portion of the cup die.

I have about 0.016 space between the rod and the die, but it is cutting the
disk like a punch.

I believe I need to 'round' the edge of the cup forming die....

http://s19.postimg.org/97pjw85yb/Forming_Die_Revised.jpg

Question is - HOW do I do that in a big steel block ?

DoctorBill

[oldred]

You are right that Kasnit is no longer available but your Cherry Red and mild steel parts will work just fine. Carbon pack hardening requires heating to red hot and holding for a long time while Cherry Red works much quicker and simpler, just heat the part red hot and dip it in the powder then reheat and quench. The difference is that the carbon pack method will produce a much deeper case than the Cherry Red which will only go a couple of thousandths deep, there is a trick I use with the stuff however that does almost as good as carbon packing. I pack the parts to be hardened in a small steel box along with the Cherry Red powder similar to the way it would be packed with charcoal for the carbon pack, heat the box containing the parts and the CR powder until they are red hot (I usually preheat the part just prior to heating the box) and then hold that temperature for about 3 or 4 minutes (a bit longer would be even better) then dump the parts into water to cool them. Doing it this way I have had no trouble getting a case of .020 or even thicker and it all happens a LOT quicker than the carbon pack method.

[FrankG]

Check brownells for hardening compound . Another brand is Tuff-N-Hard works just like Kasenite.

I beveled the Male punch just enough to break the edge then buffed on buffing wheel to mirror finish . Then hardened with tuff-n-hard .Beveling it stopped it from cutting through

[longbow]

I haven't searched for Kasenite here but being in a small town many things are not readily available anyway. Never heard of Tuff-N-Hard or Cherry red but will look. I have some parts to case harden and it sounds much quicker and easier than carbon packing. I just did that because I didn't have anything better.

Longbow

[longbow]

DoctorBill:

I wouldn't get too carried away with the radius on that edge. Try just breaking it a little by using emory cloth on a dowel. That may do it. Also, try using some lubricant on the disks before forming.

I had much the same problem when I made my simple check maker so broke the sharp edge and also ran a few disks through with valve lapping compound on them. That worked pretty well but I also gave my disks a spray of WD 40 before forming and that seemed to help as well.

Longbow

[DoctorBill]

Hard-n-Tuff made by James Morton Limited, Cambridge, Ontario N1R 3L3.

Cannot find a supplier on the Internet, just a lot of 'Business" stuff with
no E-Mail address. Does anyone in the USA sell this ?

Finding Case Hardening Compounds is like trying to find an Honest Person
in the White House.

I suppose the one pound of Cherry Red will do me - when I get it thru the USPS.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Hard-n-Tuff made by James Morton Limited, Cambridge, Ontario N1R 3L3.

Cannot find a supplier on the Internet, just a lot of 'Business" stuff with
no E-Mail address. Does anyone in the USA sell this ?

Finding Case Hardening Compounds is like trying to find an Honest Person
in the White House.

I suppose the one pound of Cherry Red will do me - when I get it thru the USPS.

I had my 0.013" Aluminum Caps getting CUT instead of formed so I 'eased' the inner
edge with this....and the tip of the Punch on the Lathe.

http://s19.postimg.org/prwvtbqxv/Smoothing_the_Cone.jpg

A minute or so of this and the Die worked fine....

http://s19.postimg.org/nbv2fh8v7/Nice_013_Gas_Caps.jpg

'Hot Melt Glue' is one of the MOST useful inventions around....

I nested a 0.004" Pop Can Disk on top of a 0.013" Al Flashing Disk and
it made a nice Gas Cap which is thicker - Sized the Slug to 0.457 and
it looks good.

THIS is not as elegant as Ed's, but I don't shoot much and I don't need
thousands of the Gas Caps. I am as happy as Barack Obama at a Gun Control
meeting on the 4th Green at Hollywood Celebrity Country Club !

What's Next.......I'm getting bored.

DoctorBill

[Cane_man]

DB, you have to round the forming punch "nose" some or else it will cut thru... just chuck it in the lathe, and put a smallish file to the edge, polish, and you should be good to go

edit: alright i see what you have done, works

bored? now move on to swaging dies, see if you can turn a .22LR case into a 400 gr WFN for a .500sw, that ought to keep you busy for a while

[DoctorBill]

All done - works - needs refining to drop Caps out the bottom.
In there pretty tight at this point.

It has three places for more Punch Holes.

http://s19.postimg.org/epwe8mm8z/Gas_Cap_Cup_Forming_Punch.jpg

A fun project and a learning experience.

Hope someone got something good out of this rambling thread.

DoctorBill

OK Cane Man....I'll try that. lol

I have made 557-450 Martini-Henry Cases out of Magtech 20 Gauge Brass Shotgun cases !
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/11078
Big Thread on this subject on this Forum somewhere.
That Rifle is my "Treasure" - 1877 that may have been used at Roark's Drift against the Zulus.
Shoots like a dream - accurate - was used to bring down Elephants in India. 22 inch triangular Bayonet !
Don't know where mine was used... sure would be nice if it could talk ! Big History in that.
https://www.google.com/search?num=10&hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1200&bih=543&q=google+images&oq=google&gs_l=img.1.1.0l10.13179.14557.0.16964.6.6.0.0.0.0. 168.868.0j6.6.0...0.0...1ac.1.ZIjRGma5iE0#hl=en&site=imghp&tbs=isz:l&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=martini-Henry%2B577-450&oq=martini-Henry%2B577-450&gs_l=img.12...19332.31001.0.34330.21.17.0.4.4.0.16 6.1818.7j10.17.0...0.0...1c.1.9.img.Ut_XtxW6T64&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=c66fd9d8dcda4d90&biw=1080&bih=489
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/39939/Re-My-newly-acquired-577-450-Martini-Henry-Mark-II?page=-1#.UXRewvcxFVU

http://s19.postimg.org/xw9lbt2qr/577_450_Brass_PP_Bullet.jpg

THAT was a hideous amount of work...but I saved about $350 on 88 cases (useful yield from 100 Brass).
That is - if you can even find 577-450 cases for sale ! (Was Jameson - now Captech International).
http://www.buffaloarms.com/577_450_Martini_Henry_Ammunition_it-865475.aspx?TERM=577-450
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=160505&TERM=577-450

Wow - Check this out for Brass - was Jameson, now Captech.
http://www.captechintl.com/proddetail.php?prod=577-450MH

I would like to find one of the Aussie Practice Martini's in 357 Magnum pistol round.

[Cane_man]

db that is awesome! is that a 2 step check maker... punch the disk then form the cup?


i read one of your threads where you made a D Reamer, i book marked it for later as that is on my to do list as well for my swaging projects:

1) turn 9mm brass in to 10mm/0.40SW JHP (the warmup project)

2) turn .22LR or 1/4" copper tubing in to 0.243 Win projectiles (the whole Magilla)

[DoctorBill]

"db that is awesome! is that a 2 step check maker... punch the disk then form the cup?"

Yes.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?194217-Has-Anyone-Made-A-Gas-Check-(Cap)-Punch&p=2170041&viewfull=1#post2170041

DoctorBill

[smoked turkey]

DoctorBill I thoroughly enjoyed the thread. I learned a lot from the back and forth as well as your ramblings (Ha). Thanks for doing your project. I am anxious for your next learning experience. No I don't do lathe work and am not a machinist. However, after seeing all the fun you guys are having I would like it.

[Cane_man]

alright db, i finally finished my shank base check maker, this is an Edsmith design where the checks collect at the bottom (these are 0.243 checks):

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/shankcheckmaker_zps3b359256.jpg

still have some bugs to work out but it is making usable checks right now, used aluminum beverage can material and 0.010 al roof flashing

[DoctorBill]

Nice work !

I may work up the nerve to try that soon......Been passing a Kidney Stone
and it isn't quite out....making me not want to do much right now.

Bought a 12" DRO from ebay and am attaching it to the vertical column
of my Harbor Freight Mini-Mill.

Life kinda gets ahold of you by the noodicles and RUNS !

DoctorBill

[Cane_man]

db sorry to hear of your situation, prayers for you hang in there...

[DoctorBill]

Ouch ! Pointy, mean little bugger scraping all the way out....

http://s19.postimg.org/6a35g4rvn/Third_Kidney_Stone.jpg

DoctorBill

[longbow]

Ouch indeed!

I was checking up on your thread and see this at the top of the page so he wonders "What part of a gas check maker is this?" or "I wounder if that hunk of grit got caught in his checkmaker?" So reading back I see this came out of the checkmaker maker! Ouch again!

No fun that I 'm betting.

Take care.

Longbow

[Rojelio]

That looks like some sort of precious gem.:veryconfu

[Cane_man]

db, did you just post a pic of your kidney stone? :takinWiz:

[DoctorBill]

My machinist friend, Gary, is out of town and I am getting a result I don't quite
understand, so I will ask all you ex-spurts.

I used my Harbor Freight Mini-Mill - as a milling machine - for the FIRST Time
yesterday. I had never 'milled' anything before....

I am Fly Cutting two pieces of Aluminum as blocks of the same dimensions.

Here one block of Aluminum has been faced on both sides using my Fly Cutter.
Going right to left with the Mill Head rotating clockwise viewed from the top.

What causes the cutter to start cutting on the right side of the block as I go
from right to left ? i.e. cutting on the back stroke ?
Feels like 1 - 2 thousandths deep.

http://s19.postimg.org/ka9sm0izn/Fly_Cutter_Milling.jpg

Is my machine out of TRAM ?
If it is out of TRAM, it is going to be Hell adjusting it that fine....

http://s19.postimg.org/w1xnwtdlv/TRAM_Adjustment.jpg

No....checked it - fine to about 0.001" or less.

Have a look at our President when he doesn't get his way
youtube.com/watch?v=q3SFXQfE4kk

DoctorBill

PS - Cane Man - YES. That Kidney Stone was stuck in my Ureter for three weeks !
It is my trophy ! I worked hard to get that cute little monstrosity.
But it crumbled to small crystals after it had dried.....Oh Well.
Was like a chunk of really hard glass when came out.....Calcium Oxalate.

That's what you get for not drinking enough beer ! Guess I'd better start
making Beer again.....

[Whiterabbit]

Been working....standing at the Lathe just kills my back ! Lord !

Methinks you need a new workbench built a couple inches taller.

Thanks for this thread. I follow your machine trials and tribulations. I own a Sieg C6 10x21 and want to go through many of these operations. Only threaded a couple times, threads fit nothing, drill bits tend to shift when first plunging in a centerdrilled piece, etc etc etc. Reading your threads help me get on the right path faster.

-S

[DoctorBill]

WhiteRabbit - GOOD ! Lathe on ! The Milling Machine "bench" is low,
but it didn't cost much and it is moveable...I do what I can afford - I'm 70 and
cash is scarce. Tooling is what costs so much compared to the Machine you first buy.

I know that most of what I post here is old stuff to those with more experience,
but us newbies and inexperienced folk need help and LOTS of pictures...

That is why I come here.

I need a new project !

Spring is here and I have a lot to do with yard work and old automobiles
needing constant attention just to keep them running.

As Arnold, the terminator, said, "I'll be back....."

DoctorBill

BTW - Aluminum does 'work harden' so you might try annealing it BEFORE
punching out any disks - at least the stuff thicker than Pop Can material.

[Whiterabbit]

Tip for a bench that is strong and pretty.

Cheap home depot 2x4's. The cheap cheap cheap ones are less than 2 dollars a piece. and they LOOK like it too! But you can clean them up. Rip 1/4 inch off each side and now you have 1.5x3" dimensioned lumber that looks like you spent 4x as much on it. If you staple two pieces together you have a 3x3 that looks like you spent 8x as much on it. Cut to 3' pieces (or whatever height you need), rabbet out the middle and top, and you can sandwich another 1.5x3 in between to lock the front and back legs together. Using those as legs your benches will stand even if the house falls down around it.

like this:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-sJqllz38Zn4/Tr4LMnQP1tI/AAAAAAAAAFM/ecVuZLEwUSw/s640/IMG_0399.JPG

except he used full 2x4's. Cut them to 3" and it will look professional.

and CHEAP!

[Whiterabbit]

cash is scarce. Tooling is what costs so much compared to the Machine you first buy.
.

Always scarce, isnt it? I noticed you have no QCTP on your lathe yet. Me either.

[DoctorBill]

WhiteRabbit - I did make my own wood Lathe Bench which construction is somewhere on this forum.
I am losing track of which threads have what in them....

http://www.mynetimages.com/7c18fda3bf.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/93cd9092e7.jpg

I used to make a lot of stuff (crude) out of wood.

And yes - I do have a QCTP - I just forget to use it....I don't use the Lathe that much.
"Grizzly"..................adapted to my 9x20 ENCO Bench Lathe

http://www.mynetimages.com/e89765b1ee.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/14d2607fa3.jpg

These are older photos - now everything is covered in oil and swarf chips....

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Just put the THIRD axis (Z) DRO on my Harbor-Freight Mini-Mill.

http://s19.postimg.org/vc65ccf8j/Three_Axis_DRO_s.jpg

ebay for $38. Amazing.

Showed them to my machinist friend (hadn't seen them) and he was amazed
at the extremely low cost - so he ordered a 39" (one meter) one for under $50,
just to have it ! Works like the big EXPENSIVE ones.......

DoctorBill

[oldred]

DB it appears you are using that mill without any sort of bracing for the column, in that configuration it's about as rigid as a wet noodle! Mount an indicator as if you were going to tram the head but position the indicator to the front instead of either side then grasp the top of the column and tug on it gently (top of the column not the motor or the head) and I am willing to bet you can get a deflection of .010 or more with almost no effort at all! You really need to brace that thing if you plan to do any serious milling with it, a piece of heavy channel will help immensely but a solid table to mount the entire machine on with angled bracing from the top of the column to the table works even better. That big nut and tilting column is a gimmick and a very useless gimmick, it's touted as a feature of the mill when in fact it is an extremely weak point that is there not to make the mill more useful but to simplify production. It's way easier to cast that frame in two flat pieces that are then bolted together than to cast that shape all in one piece. The tilt function is useless with that short table travel so it's best to brace the column as solidly as possible, once braced the surface finish on your work will improve markedly and chatter/vibration will be GREATLY reduced!

[DoctorBill]

OldRed - I know what you mean, but I have no idea how I would do that.

If you could show me with a picture or a drawing, it would sure help.

I had no idea that something so solid looking could move that much.
Side to side - or - back and forth - or - all of the above ?

It does chatter if I use a big diameter drill.

DoctorBill

[oldred]

Here are a few ways several people have done it, some methods are very effective and some not so good.

(I stole these pics off the 'net but I will try later to get a couple of the one I did for my buddy, my apologies if one of these machines belongs to one of our members here.)

This is the minimum I consider effective while the common method of just bolting a flat plate or channel to the back of the column and connecting to the base helps but not nearly enough,

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/dwmiracle/millbrace_zps0d8482a3.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dwmiracle/media/millbrace_zps0d8482a3.jpg.html)

That setup would help a lot but it really should extend all the way to the top of the column and farther to the rear of the mounting plate or bench top, this would of course require remounting the power box but that's simple to do.


Another very solid method but a bit more involved,

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/dwmiracle/rodm1954smassivesupport_zpse8843580.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dwmiracle/media/rodm1954smassivesupport_zpse8843580.jpg.html)


That one works well, I know because I have used an almost identical setup which turned out quite rigid but the trick to making it (or any method for that matter) work is a thick solid machine base mounting plate.


This one is a good compromise between the extremes but hard as it might be to believe that base plate really does need to be heavier, that particular set-up will reduce flex quite a bit but the one my buddy and I did we used first a 1/2" plate then went to a 1" thick plate in an effort to eliminate the flex and vibration. The 1/2" plate would probably work just fine if it's anchored solidly to a bench top but ours extended over the back of the bench it was mounted on and we got a surprising amount of flex from that 1/2" chuck of steel plate!


http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/dwmiracle/ozarksweldedbrace_zps1de5bee0.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/dwmiracle/media/ozarksweldedbrace_zps1de5bee0.jpg.html)


This last example would work MUCH better if the base plate was extended farther to the rear and the bracing closer to the top, as it is most of the flex would be gone but extending the base plate/bracing and using a heavier base would greatly reduce vibration. We discovered this after trying several configurations during our effort to reduce chatter and vibration.

[DoctorBill]

I will consider doing one of those !

Have enough on my plate at the moment !

It is GOOD to have a lot of projects to do - keeps one's mind working.

THE worst thing is NOT have things to do....use it or lose it.

I have a LOT of reloading to do ! 45-70's and 577-450's and 30-06's
for my son's Enfield. I want to show him how it is done.

DoctorBill

[Cane_man]

db, what up dog?! :guntootsmiley:

i broke the timing chain on my lathe last week drilling out a Grade 5 bolt, but got the replacement in today and it is back up and running... blamed it on dull drill bits, so i decided to break down and get a drill doctor to sharpen up my bits, we'll see how it goes...

[Idz]

Not being a machinist I decided to build a prototype punch for some GC PB 40SW bullets. Now some 600 rounds later my prototype still works great. It worked so well I built some for my other calibers so I can use soft lead with aluminum checks in all my pistols. I used a short piece of 7/8-14 threaded rod for the punch and forming die, a piece of 1018 CRS makes up the punch die with a short forming pin attached inside it. I use 6" wide x .011" thick aluminum flashing cut into 5/8" strips on a guillotine paper cutter as stock. I punch, form, and eject a GC on each stroke of my low end Lee press. Anybody interested in this design?

[Cane_man]

^^^ sure, sounds interesting lets see what you got

[Idz]

Here's a photo of what it looks like71433 The threaded rod is screwed into the top of the press and is the punch and forming die. The other part sits in the shellholder and is the die with the forming pin screwed inside

[Idz]

My drawings
714347143571436

[Cane_man]

^^^ awesome drawings, looks great! :awesome:

what type of lathe do you have and what type of round stock did you use? did you do any heat treating?

[Idz]

I used 3/4" dia 1018 steel round and 7/8-14 threaded rod purchased from ENCO. Aluminum is so easy to punch and form that heat treating parts isn't necessary. I see almost zero wear after punching out 600 checks. The aluminum sheet stock is flashing stock from HomeDepot ~$15 for a 6"x25'x0.011 roll.
I have a 9" ENCO hobby lathe which works well if you tighten up the ways.
After making a few versions I could make a die set in a few hours. Finish on CRS isn't great but it seems to work just fine.
A few tricks I learned:
Chamfer and smooth the entrance to die to compensate for press misalignment between die and punch.
The relief hole on the back of the punch acts as a stripper to pull the completed check off the forming pin.
The sides of the forming pin should be polished so the check doesn't stick.
The slot can be cut with a hacksaw but a cutoff saw or slotting saw is easier to get a straight cut.
The forming pin should be .01-.02 lower than the slot so the disk is punched out before its formed.
The clearance between the punch and die should be about .002 for .010 aluminum sheet.
Make the die first and use it as a gage to turn the punch OD.
Screw an old pill bottle on top of the punch and it will capture a 100 or so completed checks.

[blikseme300]

I used 3/4" dia 1018 steel round and 7/8-14 threaded rod purchased from ENCO. Aluminum is so easy to punch and form that heat treating parts isn't necessary. I see almost zero wear after punching out 600 checks. The aluminum sheet stock is flashing stock from HomeDepot ~$15 for a 6"x25'x0.011 roll.
I have a 9" ENCO hobby lathe which works well if you tighten up the ways.
After making a few versions I could make a die set in a few hours. Finish on CRS isn't great but it seems to work just fine.
A few tricks I learned:
Chamfer and smooth the entrance to die to compensate for press misalignment between die and punch.
The relief hole on the back of the punch acts as a stripper to pull the completed check off the forming pin.
The sides of the forming pin should be polished so the check doesn't stick.
The slot can be cut with a hacksaw but a cutoff saw or slotting saw is easier to get a straight cut.
The forming pin should be .01-.02 lower than the slot so the disk is punched out before its formed.
The clearance between the punch and die should be about .002 for .010 aluminum sheet.
Make the die first and use it as a gage to turn the punch OD.
Screw an old pill bottle on top of the punch and it will capture a 100 or so completed checks.

I had not visited this thread in a while but now that I have some free time and wanting to make a check making tool I revisited.

Idz, the design you present here is awesome! I will be starting on a set soon once I get my honey-do list done.