Is this possible?

[docmagnum357]

First thing is I have no experience with swaging. Second, If this is a stupid idea, no harm, no foul. I wonder if I could cut steel cores for .224 bullets with a precision micro cut off saw. Steel wire is available in almost unlimited sizes and I think if I were to cut a steel core the right diameter I could actually use it for a de riming punch that stayed in the case. See what I mean? put the steel core in the 22 lr case and push it through a Lee .224 sizer die. The steel core would then be seated and the case de rimmed. Then a fellow could run the jacket/ core through a point former and be done.

A couple of problems I see are "spring back" I know sometimes with copper/ brass etc you have to size a tad smaller because of spring back.

Some are probably wondering why a steel core. Several reasons. first, it would be cheaper and easier. As I say, steel is available in almost infinite wire size. Second, it would get higher velocity, and penetrate better. I wonder if a pellet of lead could be inserted in the nose before forming? Very similar to a Fail Safe then. The nose would expand, and the steel core would penetrate like nobody's business. If good bullets can be made this way it would be much faster and cheaper, skipping several steps. Lastly, it would give the .223 some penetrating ability. I know someone will bring up the "armor piercing " boogey man, but 62 grain green tips have a steel core. No problem buying them. Or at least their wasn't until the latest ammo scare.

[lmfd20]

I don't know if I would use it in the deriming step. I would add it on the core seating step. Finding a steel core that is just undersize and seating a small piece of lead on top to act as packing around the core and form a tip would be my thought. Even some small lead shot under the core and on top might work. Accurate? Maybe, maybe not but worth a try. Be careful when you try to swage something with steel in it. Dies are expensive. Good luck.

[taminsong]

I have tried to open up a 50 cal bullet and inside were a real hard steel core, up front is like a powdered metal and at the base were lead.

I don't know what's your purpose but damaging a PF die is not worth it for me! Maybe you just try the bonded core idea, if it will helps.

[Utah Shooter]

The whole point to bullet making is having it step up in diameter with every step of the process. Spring back is what the copper wants to do and the lead wants to just stay the shape you make it. Sure the steel wants to stay the same as well.

What would you do in the point up process? The steel core is not going to give to the steel die. The first thing that is going to give is the copper or brass jacket. You will more than likely cut through that then ding up the mirror finish in the pointing process creating a spot that will prevent ejection. When you do the pointing process the lead is where the ogive is. Replace that with steel....? How do you now get the steel core to curve with the ogive?

I would assume then the die would split due to its weakness which would be a hole that goes all the way through it.

The whole reason we use lead is because it is the best material to make a core out of. Sure you can use something else but it has to be softer than the dies you are using. Anything will wear on a steel dies if you use it long enough. Run water through one for a year straight and it will shape it.

Why would you want to ruin a die that cost at least 200 dollars to save on material cost?

[trevj]

Let's go for the short answer.

Nope. Not gonna work no way, no how.

Do some reading about swaging and you will rapidly find that lead alloys harder than pure lead are problematic a core materials. Not gonna swage any steel in a point form die that will ever produce a useful bullet a second time!

Cheers
Trev

[perotter]

Nominally how is it used, the steel is coated with enough lead so that lead to keeps the bullet the desired size. There might be plastics the would work instead of the lead.

Or for the M1 carbine AP round a piece of T shot was used in the nose of the bullet for forming the tip/point. And a gliding metal base was used. These were lead free bullets.

Various ways to do it. I don't know if regular swage dies would work the best. But your moving in the correct general direction.

[docmagnum357]

Perotter, I think you get it, the others don't. Also , I didn't explain it right. Only an idiot would try to swage steel. My idea is to use it for a core tht isn;t part of the ogive, or spire. I would use a lead, pellet for the part that gets formed and that is just what you are talking about. And a piece of shot was was exactly what I had on my mind for a tip or secondary, frontal core!. I did n think of was spring back in the Copper/Zink jacket. Would the act of passing through a de rim die Stretch the jacket enough to get a tight fit? It would be like pulling on a sock. I know the neck tension on a cartridge is because of this same "spring back". If the jacket is .010 on a side, that make .020. TO get a .224 bullet, I could use a 204 core. Basically what I am asking the jacket to do is iron it's self over the steel core tightly enough to stay together. It should finish at .224. Then, drop a pellet in the nose and form a tip.

I think the best way to find out is to try this with a lee .224 sizer die. If I can get the thing together like I want, all I would need is a pointing die, and that is the whole Idea, Cheap, fast, easy. If the steel core were longer than the bore diameter part of the bullet, of course it would lead to all kinds of problems.....DUH! even that could be easily handled on a lathe. If the bullet's shape was a spire point, you could follow the shape of the finished bullet, but that won't work for INTERNAL ballistics. a flat nosed steel "slug " would penetrate well, a steel core like a nail, with a point will tumble . I am gong to order a Lee sizer die and see what happens. I think if I can get the core INTO the small jacket, it will work. MAy have to bell them. OR, it may not work at all, and I will be out $30. It all comes down to two things; 1) Is the "stretch" enough to get enough tension between the steel core and the jacket so the core won't slip during firing, mainly rotational slipping. A lot of .223/5.56 rifles have some fast twist barrels. I believe there would be enough tension. 2) Would the jacket tear when i was inserting the core? Don't know. It is going to cost the price of a .224 sizer die and freight.

[Utah Shooter]

Perotter, I think you get it, the others don't.

Well you did ask if we thought this is possible and I am still going to say NO WAY! I think we get it, you are just not liking the answer.

Good luck, I hope you do not blow up a gun and keep us posted on your success.

[DukeInFlorida]

DocMagnum, why not start a SECOND thread with the same question????????????????

Oh wait, you already did...................

:coffeecom