400 grain 44???

[Bandit86]

Cruising the Internet for a 45-70 I might like I came across a 405 grain 44 magnum load, references to bearclaw or something like that loaded to 1000fps Anybody hear of a round that heavy in a 44? So far the biggest I saw was 330

[Bullshop]

Prolly designed for the 444 Marlin. When Marlin speeded up the twist in the newer 444 rifles they put the cartridge on a closer footing with the 45/70.
Search a little and you will find people shooting up to 420gn or so from the 444.
Someone prolly just wanted to see what if and tried them in a 44 mag.
I have some 370gn Ranch Dogs if you want to try some.

[Bandit86]

Prolly designed for the 444 Marlin. When Marlin speeded up the twist in the newer 444 rifles they put the cartridge on a closer footing with the 45/70.
Search a little and you will find people shooting up to 420gn or so from the 444.
Someone prolly just wanted to see what if and tried them in a 44 mag.
I have some 370gn Ranch Dogs if you want to try some.

I would try it just to say I did it. I would even try the 400 as a cowboy load

[RobS]

Darn..........for 44 mag. I just wrote on a thread the other day that I felt 350ish grains was about it for a 454 Casull load and now a 400 grainer for 44 mag. I guess anything is possible and to what degree of success is to each his own.

[runfiverun]

444 or the 44-77 or the 43 Spanish.
44-77 more likely.

[Bandit86]

Here is a video of a supposed 400 grain 44mag


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDc61sq-H-A&sns=em

[44man]

We tested the 400 and it is not stable in a .44, making tilted holes at 50 yards. It will not group at all.
It should work in a .444 rifle.

[Bandit86]

I have the ruger super blackhawk hunter, 1:20 twist and 7.5 inch barrel, my ranch hand is 1:30 that one may not be enough

[w30wcf]

I don't think 12.5/2400 will push a 400 gr bullet to quite 1,000 f.p.s. in the .44. In the wood penetration test, it is likely that the bullet turned a bit sideways due to being marginally stable. Thus the reason for very little penetration.

A Marlin 444 has a slow twist (1/38) which will likely not be enough to stabilize a 400 gr bullet. In a faster twist barrel it would work fine.

Back in the mid 70's when I was shooting IHMSA, I worked with heavy bullets in my .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk, looking for 100% reliability on the rams. THat was before the ruling came out in 1980 to offset the feet for easier knockdown. I tested two 45-70 bullets .... the 350 gr (457192) and 420 gr (457193). There was no data at the time for either bullet so I treaded cautiously. I came to prefer the 350 which, I found, did the job 100% of the time. The 420 gr bullets shot well, but even with the sights all the way down, the bullets were still shooting a bit high at 200 meters.

I had met J.D.Jones at the matches and gave him some of the bullets to try along with my loading data using 296 powder.
He said that they were the only bullets at that time, fired from a revolver, that would take down his mastadon target. :smile:

w30wcf

[44man]

I have the ruger super blackhawk hunter, 1:20 twist and 7.5 inch barrel, my ranch hand is 1:30 that one may not be enough
True, too slow. The 400 gr might need 1 in 14" or 15". It has to be shot slow to keep pressures down. It can't spin up.
All the very heavy boolits we tested from all calibers had less penetration and turned to exit out the top or sides.
Going to a Remington 240 in wet paper made 11". Expanded too fast. The 265 RD made 33" and the 330 gr made 34", both in a straight line. A 400 gr exited the side with less.
A 700 gr from a .500 S&W was stupid.
You do not gain, you lose.

[44man]

I don't think 12.5/2400 will push a 400 gr bullet to quite 1,000 f.p.s. in the .44. In the wood penetration test, it is likely that the bullet turned a bit sideways due to being marginally stable. Thus the reason for very little penetration.

A Marlin 444 has a slow twist (1/38) which will likely not be enough to stabilize a 400 gr bullet. In a faster twist barrel it would work fine.

Back in the mid 70's when I was shooting IHMSA, I worked with heavy bullets in my .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk, looking for 100% reliability on the rams. THat was before the ruling came out in 1980 to offset the feet for easier knockdown. I tested two 45-70 bullets .... the 350 gr (457192) and 420 gr (457193). There was no data at the time for either bullet so I treaded cautiously. I came to prefer the 350 which, I found, did the job 100% of the time. The 420 gr bullets shot well, but even with the sights all the way down, the bullets were still shooting a bit high at 200 meters.

I had met J.D.Jones at the matches and gave him some of the bullets to try along with my loading data using 296 powder.
He said that they were the only bullets at that time, fired from a revolver, that would take down his mastadon target. :smile:

w30wcf
Remember that the Ruger .45 Colt has a 1 in 16" twist. My Lyman 325 gr mold casts a 347 gr boolit and has shot 1" groups at 75 yards from a Vaquero.

[Bandit86]

What is a 45-70 twist rate?

[44man]

Depends, some are 1 in 20", some 1 in 18" and my BFR is 1 in 14". My revolver will out shoot every 45-70 rifle I ever shot at any distance to 500 meters.
I really do believe a shorter barrel needs a faster twist.
Some say a twist is a twist but you need to reach velocity for spin.

[felix]

The circular MOMENTUM (inertia) at the projectile's outermost skin is what counts when determining stability against any outside influence. ... felix

[archmaker]

I think you start having an OAL length problem. I have a 350gr GC bullet for my 44, and one of my 44 would not let the cylinder move because it was to long, the other one would have no problem. I was able to push that load to give me great accuracy at 50yds, but I rarely shot it as I didn't see any Elephants running around my part of Oklahoma.

[44man]

The circular MOMENTUM (inertia) at the projectile's outermost skin is what counts when determining stability against any outside influence. ... felix
You come through again!
So few words but so much insight.
I have an awful time explaining twist, velocity, spin and what each cartridge is capable of.

[longbow]

I scaled down Richard Gunn's .45 subsonic boolit design for .44 and it came out at just over 400 grs. My thought was for a Whisper style .44 mag in a fast twist rifle barrel using a .444 barrel but with a .44 mag chamber and long throat. Haven't got to it yet but would like to. I figured it would need about 1:18" twist or faster.

Just thinking.

Longbow