Marlin 45-70 cowboy cowboy loads

[makicjf]

I found a 45-70 cowboy for a great deal, and as soon as my dies, molds etc arrive am going to start working up a cowboy/ trapdoor original velocity load for the lee 405. I am going to start with around 14 grains of unique, but also have 2 lbs of imr3031 on hand. Does anyone have any data for low velocity loads with 3031 and a 405 cast? should I use filler with the 3031? if so how much. From my reading it appears filler should not be used with unique.
Thanks!
Jason

[missionary5155]

Greetings
For low velocity I stick with Unique. If 1100 fps is too fast drop Unique back to 10 grains and you should be close to 950 fps.
If you want a more bulky powder to better fill the case try some 5744. It was made for this purpose. 3031 is a great powder for potent 45-70 loads. As a reduced load I think you will be very dissapointed and maybe worse. Have never seen any load manuals recommend 3031 for reduced loads.
Mike in Peru

[Westwindmike]

Not the powders you asked about, but I use 25.5 gr of 5744 with a Lee 340 and get about 1225fps out of my Marlin.

[TJF1]

4759 is another good powder start with
22 gr,

[skandic]

25gr 5744 and no fillers should get you right at 1,360fps out of that cowboy's 26 inch tube with the Lee 405, this would be considered a more traditional load mabey some would say a cowboy load would be less.

[skandic]

25gr 5744 should give 1,360fps from a cowboy's 26 inch tube.

[44 flattop]

I use 11grs of Unique for just about 1100fps out of my 26" '86.

The only load I've used with 3031 is 42 grs with the 405 for 1512fps out of the same 26" barrel.

[Lead Fred]

How about 70 grains of 2f

[RickinTN]

You should do well with the Unique loadings in the range you mention. Some years ago, out of my 1886 26" barreled 45-70 I shot a load of 35gr IMR 3031 with a 405 gr cast and Federal Gold Medal Match primers. Although I only have a sample of three (3) loads across the screens it read 1,225, 1,226, 1,225 fps. This is the most consistent load I've ever shot across a chronograph. It is 1gr above the starting load in my Lyman #4 cast bullet handbook. The accuracy was excellent as well.
Good Luck with your rifle,
Rick

[W.R.Buchanan]

25 gr of 5744 is what you want for that gun. Just get some after you use up your 3031. Or save the 3031 for hunting loads.

If you want slower then try Trailboss. It was made specifically for that purpose, and it's easy to get 1000 fps out of it. It's almost like shooting a slingshot.

Randy

[M-Tecs]

Unique is not position sensitive and no filler required. At 10 to 14 grains its very cost effective. I have been loading it for mild 45-70 loads for 40+ years. I have tried a lot of others but I keep going back to Unique.

[makicjf]

Thank you Gentleman! I would prefer to stick with the Unique because, as many stated, it is cost effective. I was considering the 3031 for lower loads because I am down to about 1 lbs of unique. As of late it has become pretty scarce: I seem to run through about 4 lbs every 3 months or so. 45 acp, 45 colt cowboy loads, 30/30 cowboy loads and my standard woods carry load for the ruger of 10 unique under a 255 swc all use unique. I love the diversity, but i'm also pretty dependant upon its availabilty. The 3031 I only use in my 30/30 full bore loads. I was curioius if I could temporarily use the 3031 for the 45-70 steel target loads to save some of my unique until (if) the supply sitiation changes. The 35 grain load at 1225 is exactly what I was looking to accomplish. Did you use filler or is there enough fill to not need it?
70 grains of black would be wonderful, but I am not familiar enough with the handling and loading of black to try that undertaking alone. If I could find a mentor who could teach me how to load and clean after shooting I would do it!
Thanks again!
Jason

[RickinTN]

No filler used with the 35gr charge of 3031 and Lyman doesn't recommend it either.

[makicjf]

Thank you Sir!
Jason

[detox]

A lighter weight boolit will have less recoil and conserve lead. I like the durable RCBS moulds.
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/mould-details-rifles.php?entryID=71
https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/MainServlet?storeId=webconnect&catalogId=webconnect&langId=en_US&action=ProductDisplay&screenlabel=index&productId=3334&route=C12J059

[makicjf]

When I bought the cowboy (I've been lusting after one for years) I really wanted to shoot 405 heavies at old time levels- It just feels righto me. My two rossi 92's in 45 colt shoot the lee 300 gc ( checked and lubed it goes 320 from ww) over 24 of h110 perfectly. I do not know the velocity, but guessing 1250 form a ruger I would say 1450 to 1500 from the rifles. That is a heck of a field carry combo a 92 and a ruger blackhawk stoked with 320's! Everyone else I know who shoots Cowboy matches with the 45-70 uses a 300 grain bullet. I am sure I will follow suit... After I chunk some boulders at steel! A step down to lighter 45-70 loads, would be easier as they would not require gas checks. I cannot wait to whack a 200 yard ram with this thing, though!
Jason

[detox]

Does the cowboy have Ballard type rifling?

[makicjf]

It does. I have not worked anything up yet. It is taking a while for my acoutrements to arrive... no mold, no dies, no shoot! Though I just picked up 800 lbs of ww ingots and unlubed cast boolits to remold. Lead to spare for a bit!
Jason

[W.R.Buchanan]

The 300gr boolit makes a very satisfying FWAP when it hits the Rams.

It also knocks them down with "authority!"

You will love it.

Randy

[OD#3]

Unique is not position sensitive

Yes it is. I've had spreads as large as 200 f.p.s. with maximum charges in .45 Colt depending upon whether it was deliberately positioned in the front or to the rear of the case before leveling the revolver slowly and firing. I'm not disputing your advice; Unique has always been a very accurate powder for me--despite its position sensitivity.

[M-Tecs]

I have loaded and fired probably 30K of 45 Colt loads since 1970 and to be honest I have never crono’d one. They have all ways shot very well for me so I never bothered. Good point on max loads. All mine have been light loads. Mostly 8 grains under a 255 cast

My favorite 45/70 plinking load is 10 grains of Unique under a 385 grain cast. I have crono’d these tilted back, level and shaken and muzzle down. It’s been 20 years since I crono’d these loads and I don’t remember the extreme spreads but it was not as great as you experienced in the 45 Colt.

[Dave Bulla]

OD#3, that's interesting. I think you are the first person I've ever heard claim they had velocity issues like that.

I wonder if it might be because you are up in the "maximum charge" range? Most people using Unique do it for reduced loads or BP equivalent loads. Just makes me wonder if the higher end loads act differently.

[Salmoneye]

Low Level Data for .45-70 405gr Bullet:

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/4570g405_dat.htm

Other bullet weights than 405gr can be found by scrolling down in the left pane on this page:

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[OD#3]

I was comparing velocities with blackpowder loads and smokeless loads one day at the range, and I was unhappy with the extreme spreads using Unique. This led me to deliberately position the powder to the front and to the rear and test those. I was filming that day and posted a Youtube video about it. See for yourself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mTfeF4yhc8

I was using 8.5 grains Unique under a 255 grain LSWC. I guess it wasn't "maximum", but it was close. Some people load 9 grains Unique. Still, the velocity difference was pretty severe between powder in the front and powder in the rear. The video is over 8 minutes long. You can skip to around the 6 minute mark for the powder position test. Unfortunately, the camera wasn't close enough to read the chronograph, and the shooting drowns out our reading out loud of the velocities, but you can hear us if you turn the volume up enough. I have another video of me testing out a Colt New Service entitled "Latest Colt New Service". As you can see from that video (and I was using Unique that day as well), I was getting excellent accuracy. So for some reason, DESPITE Unique's position sensitivity, it manages to give good accuracy. I've switched to Titegroup for my .45 Colt loads and have found it to be position insensitive. I still use Unique for heavy bullet (255 grain) .45 ACP loads where there is less case volume, and I haven't experienced the large velocity spreads in that cartridge. Admittedly, I haven't tried it in the 45-70. Perhaps the case is large enough that one would rarely--if ever--manage to get the miniscule charge of Unique to end up piled up at the rear of the case, so perhaps the position sensitivity factor wouldn't play as large a role with the .45-70.

[Coyote Chris]

If you do use the 3031, or 4198 for that matter, I would suggest a firm roll crimp to help build up pressure in the round before bullet release and therefore burn more of the powder instead of having lots of kernals left in the bore. Once I shot a 45-70 lever gun with 3031 and the report and recoil were obviously low. Very low. I looked in the bore and it was full of kernals. I had not crimped the bullets in,
and I was using almost no bullet tension....never a good thing in a lever gun anyway....30 years later I am a bit smarter....the Marlin CB is a very nice rifle, by the way...a bit light but you will like it for sure.

[sixpointfive]

Perfect 45-70 cowboy load.16 grains of unique (no filler) and lee 340 gr boolit. shooting 3" groups 100 yards open sights. 1600 FPS. killed a doe at 65 yards last year. Economical, accurate and easy on the shoulder

[sixpointfive]

5744 is expensive, unique is cheap

[smkummer]

Yep, 14.7 grains unique and the Lyman bullet that is supposed to cast at 385 but is dropping at 405 with WW. 1300 FPS out my my H&R trapdoor repro officers model and its dead accurate. That is all my shoulder wants for plinking.

[Whit Spurzon]

Another fan of Unique here in the 45-70. Even though it starts out at under 1200 fps at the muzzle it's still impressive at 400 yards.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLe2Mummofo

I've also had great luck with Unique in 38-55, 45 Colt, 32-20, 30-30, 32 H&R... I was surprised to see OD#3's results. That same load in my New Vaquero gets 882-906 fps (10 shot string) and is very accurate.

[Scharfschuetze]

I don't have a lot to add as I'm also a big fan of Unique in my cast bullet loads in the 45/70 with 405 grain cast bullets in a Marlin 1895 and also in several original Trapdoor Springfields.

I do want to back up OD#3's observations with Unique in the 45 Colt. Several years ago I worked up cast bullet loads in an Uberti 1873 US Cavalry SAA. I chronographed several powders with the intent of finding the most uniform powder in that big and voluminous case. I tested the loads in 10 shot strings starting with the muzzle flipped up prior to shooting for one string and then with the muzzle pointed down (powder to the front) for a string. The difference was close to OD#3's reported extreme spreads with Unique. Olin's 231 powder, a favorite propellant in 45 ACP loads, also proved disappointing in this context. The most uniform powder that I found was Tightgroup with very little spread between the powder forward and the powder to the rear tests.

Given that experience, I flip the muzzle up a bit prior to shooting to position the Unique to the rear of my 45/70 cases for more uniform ignition. This has given me very good results at ranges way out there with my Trapdoors.

[Gray Fox]

Have any of you used Universal Clays in place of Unique? I've had good success with it in .38-40, .44-40, and .45 Colt. In new brass a fired case looks like it's still new. Some sources I have read say that it is pretty much a direct swap grain weight wise with Unique and I've found that to be true. I've never tried it in .45-70, but I've never used Unique in it, either. GF

[searcher4851]

Never had much luck trying to download 3031. For the light loads I stick with Unique.

[Scharfschuetze]

I checked my load data book for my Marlin 1895 (26" Ballard rifled barrel) with a Lyman #66 aperture rear sight and blade front sight. My most accurate and uniform load for a cast 405 gr PB bullet was with IMR 4198 (no filler). 5 shot strings over the chronograph averaged:

Cases: Winchester-Western, neck sized with a Lyman Tong Tool NS die in an adapter for my Rock Chucker press and then belled with a Lyman expander die. For the tube magazine I use a roll crimp.

Primer: Remington 9 1/2 LR
Charge: 25 grains of IMR 4198

Velocity: 1115 fps
ES: 54
SD: 20.5

Accuracy average was 1.6 MOA for 5 shot groups

For some reason my Marlin does not like the lighter cast bullets, so I stick with the heavier 405 grain projectiles in it.

As a reference, my Unique powered loads (no filler) with the same boolit look like this:

Cases, crimp and primer: Same as above

Charge: 13 Grains Unique
Velocity: 1125
ES: 45
SD: 13
Accuracy: 4 MOA average for 10 shot groups

My H&R Officer's Model 1873 Trapdoor replica does pretty much the same as the Marlin 1895 as far as its ballistics and accuracy with the above loads.

A powder that hasn't been mentioned yet is Hogdon's Tight Group. It's a fast pistol powder, but it is virtually unaffected by its position in the case and it produces very uniform loads. While you are limited to velocity with it, it is a standout favorite of mine in the 45/70 and 45 Colt. It's fast burn rate seems to obturate even hard cast bullets well and I suffer little to no leading with even PB boolits.

With the same bullet, case and primer combinations as the above two loads, it shakes out like this for 10 shots in the H&R Trapdoor:

Charge: 10.5 grains Tight Group
Velocity: 1050 fps
ES: 20
SD: 6.5

Accuracy is exceptional at less than 2 MOA for 10 shot groups. It also burns very clean. I've not shot this load beyond 200 yards, but at 200 yards, even with its lower velocity, it will ring the 10" gongs most convincingly!