Large Rifle Primers rather than Large Pistol Primers?

[Southern Shooter]

Can large rifle primers be used in place of large pistol primers in certain handgun cartriges and in certain handguns? For, example, can I use a large rifle primer in a .44 Magnum round that is being fired from a Ruger Blackhawk or a S&W 629?

Thanks

[2wheelDuke]

I've read that large rifle primer pockets are deeper than large pistol primer pockets, thus the large rifle primers are "taller" to fit. So that'd be a no-go, because you'd have high primers when they were fully seated if that were the case.

I haven't personally tried or measured, but that's what I've read. Maybe you can find somebody locally to trade you. I don't have many large rifle primers but do have large pistol, so I'd swap you 1k if you are in S. Florida.

[454PB]

Yes, rifle primers are taller than pistol primers.

Here's an interesting read:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/

[Bwana]

Do a search, we have covered this in detail here.

[44man]

NO, NO and NO.

[sixshot]

I think he said NO! A taller primer will make contact with the recoil shield on a revolver, thats not a good thing when you touch one off......just saying.

Dick

[Southern Shooter]

ok. Thanks for the info.

And, I assume that the shorter large pistol primer would NOT work in a large rifle brass. The firing pin would not be able to reach the shorter large pistol primer when placed in the deeper large rifle brass primer pocket?

[Dan Cash]

I think he said NO! A taller primer will make contact with the recoil shield on a revolver, thats not a good thing when you touch one off......just saying.

Dick

Not only bad in revolver, LR primers in an auto loader are an open invitation to a slam fire. The potential also exists in lever and bolt guns in pistol calibers.

[Southern Shooter]

Judging from this thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/printthread.php?t=5139&pp=20&page=1 you can use large PISTOL primers in some rifle loads. Ok...I was just curious.

[Baja_Traveler]

The exact reason why I have 25,000 Large Pistol Primers and only 10,000 Large Rifle on hand! You can go pistol to rifle, but not the other way around...

[BruceB]

Yadda, yadda, yadda.....hardness, thickness, depth, etc etc ad nauseam....NO), "they" say, you can't do this substitution....except for one glaring fact. I HAVE DONE IT, successfully and for MANY hundreds , if not thousands, of rounds.

As recently as a couple of years ago, I demonstrated the use of LARGE RIFLE primers in PISTOL cases right here for NVCurmudgeon, who was visiting at the time. In a number of different-manufacture .44 and .45 pistol cases, I seated LARGE RIFLE primers to a depth where they were NOT above the case head and hence not posing any risk of slam-firing, either against the recoil shield of a revolver OR the slide-face of a semi-auto.

The only drawback is the need for higher seating pressure when installing the rifle primer.

Do I recommend this? NO, not when times are "normal" and primers generally available.

News item: In case y'all haven't noticed, times are NOT normal, and for many of us it's a time for expediencies.

Some decades ago, living in Canada, the only readily-available .44 Magnum ammunition came from Canadian Industries Limited (CIL). This ammo was specifically loaded for the Ruger .44 Carbine, as there was ZERO market for handgun ammunition in the country. The ammo was loaded with the SAME #8 & 1/2 primer used in CIL .30-06, .30-30, .270 etc RIFLE ammunition, but it worked perfectly in both Ruger and S&W revolvers, including firing the S&Ws in double-action mode.

The cases served well with Large Pistol primers, as well.

Many times, being at the end of a long and skimpy supply line in the Arctic, pistol primers were simply not available.... handgunning was a poor stepchild in shooting circles in Canada.

As a result, and AS AN EXPEDIENT, we often used rifle primers in handgun-caliber brass....not just the local CIL brass, but also Norma, R-P, Winchester and whatever else came to hand. "Expedient", remember? Such loads worked reliably and without problems.

In a previous discussion, it was suggested that a pocket-uniformer be used to slightly-deepen the pockets in handgun cases, for use with rifle primers. This would seem to be a good idea, as long as the cases were somehow marked as having been altered.

I would also suggest a slight reduction in the powder charge, although we never bothered doing that all those years ago.... this just probably indicates that our loads were on safe ground for pressures to begin with.

What all this boils down to is that ANY Boxer-type primer is still a primer, and when primers are difficult to find, it behooves us to either find a way to use what we have, or stop shooting. Once again, I do NOT recommend going to these lengths if proper primers are available.... but in many current instances, "proper primers" are NOT available.

As handloaders, we make our personal decisions on loads all the time. Just be aware that, if your supply of PISTOL primers runs low, the substitution of rifle primers HAS been made successfully and safely by someone out there in the world.

Use care, but the decision is yours.

[Bwana]

BruceB, you done done it now. Just wait for the usual suspects to show up and put you in your place.

[BruceB]

Yep..... but I've done done it before, and survived.

A search for "primer substitution" brings up quite a few threads n the subject.... I found a couple old posts of mine that are almost the same as the one I just posted here. Also, I found a test wherein I chronographed some .45 ACP loads with standard pistol primers versus rifle primers IN THE SAME LOAD, SAME PISTOL/ and SAME DAY.

The interesting subject of using pistol primers in rifle brass also comes up with this search terminology.

[nicholst55]

Yadda, yadda, yadda.....hardness, thickness, depth, etc etc ad nauseam....NO), "they" say, you can't do this substitution....except for one glaring fact. I HAVE DONE IT, successfully and for MANY hundreds , if not thousands, of rounds.

As recently as a couple of years ago, I demonstrated the use of LARGE RIFLE primers in PISTOL cases right here for NVCurmudgeon, who was visiting at the time. In a number of different-manufacture .44 and .45 pistol cases, I seated LARGE RIFLE primers to a depth where they were NOT above the case head and hence not posing any risk of slam-firing, either against the recoil shield of a revolver OR the slide-face of a semi-auto.

The only drawback is the need for higher seating pressure when installing the rifle primer.

Do I recommend this? NO, not when times are "normal" and primers generally available.

News item: In case y'all haven't noticed, times are NOT normal, and for many of us it's a time for expediencies.

Some decades ago, living in Canada, the only readily-available .44 Magnum ammunition came from Canadian Industries Limited (CIL). This ammo was specifically loaded for the Ruger .44 Carbine, as there was ZERO market for handgun ammunition in the country. The ammo was loaded with the SAME #8 & 1/2 primer used in CIL .30-06, .30-30, .270 etc RIFLE ammunition, but it worked perfectly in both Ruger and S&W revolvers, including firing the S&Ws in double-action mode.

The cases served well with Large Pistol primers, as well.

Many times, being at the end of a long and skimpy supply line in the Arctic, pistol primers were simply not available.... handgunning was a poor stepchild in shooting circles in Canada.

As a result, and AS AN EXPEDIENT, we often used rifle primers in handgun-caliber brass....not just the local CIL brass, but also Norma, R-P, Winchester and whatever else came to hand. "Expedient", remember? Such loads worked reliably and without problems.

In a previous discussion, it was suggested that a pocket-uniformer be used to slightly-deepen the pockets in handgun cases, for use with rifle primers. This would seem to be a good idea, as long as the cases were somehow marked as having been altered.

I would also suggest a slight reduction in the powder charge, although we never bothered doing that all those years ago.... this just probably indicates that our loads were on safe ground for pressures to begin with.

What all this boils down to is that ANY Boxer-type primer is still a primer, and when primers are difficult to find, it behooves us to either find a way to use what we have, or stop shooting. Once again, I do NOT recommend going to these lengths if proper primers are available.... but in many current instances, "proper primers" are NOT available.

As handloaders, we make our personal decisions on loads all the time. Just be aware that, if your supply of PISTOL primers runs low, the substitution of rifle primers HAS been made successfully and safely by someone out there in the world.

Use care, but the decision is yours.

Bruce - thanks for sharing your experiences. This answers a question that I've been wondering about for a long time. FWIW, I recently found myself with no Small Pistol Primers available, anywhere. Unfortunately, I needed to load some .40 S&W ammo. A quick check informed me that IPSC shooters have been using SRPs in their handguns to safely make 'Major' with cartridges like 9mm and .38 Super for decades with no problems. I no longer buy Small Pistol Primers as a result of that information and my own testing.

[44man]

You can do it by seating so hard you go below what a LR primer needs but you destroy the compound for accuracy. You are actually mashing the primer cup beyond the anvil amount. The anvil must be SET, nothing more.
Look at the .500 S&W with brass made for both the LP and LR primers. The LR primer loaded in the LP brass has blown up guns from a round going off against the recoil plate from a slam fire.
No, I will not tell you to EVER load a LR primer in place of a LP primer.
Get a big enough bar and you can screw a 5/16" bolt into a 1/4" hole but is it right?
I don't care what anyone has done but the LR primer hole is .010" deeper then a LP primer hole and if you force a LR primer in, you are not doing right. If you are dumb enough to use a LR primer where it is too much, deepen the pocket.
I am going to go against BruceB 100% for other shooters no matter what he has done. It is a safety issue that I can't ignore. ONE PROUD PRIMER can blow your gun so STAY AWAY.
You can use LP primers in LR brass forever with super results, totally different but do not EVER go the other way.

[44man]

BruceB, you done done it now. Just wait for the usual suspects to show up and put you in your place.
Darn right. It is wrong. Common sense says it is wrong.

[fecmech]

Ah that word, expediency! Brings back memories of my model 788 in .243.
At the time it was brand new to me and I bought a box of ammo for it and shot that up pretty quick. Didn't have a lot of money at the time so another box of ammo was out of the question. Went to the LGS and all he had was H-380 and Sierra 60 gr bullets so that's what I bought. I just HAD to shoot this rifle but I didn't have any .243 dies (I only had pistol dies at the time), what to do?? A lyman decapping pin fit in a Lyman "M" die and my .45 acp shell holder fit .243 case and I had large pistol primers, no problem. Looked up the max load for the 60 gr and H-380 (always started at max back then!) and dumped it in the case. Slight problem with the bullets, they fell into the case. Fixed that with judicious crimping of the case mouth with a pair of pliers, just enough to hold the bullet. The first 5 shots went downrange and into a hair over 1" on the target. Yeah Yeah you may call BS but that actually happened. In fact after I got dies for the .243 I never found a more accurate load for that gun than a max load of H380 and 60 gr Sierra and it was around 3500 fps. The best way to load it was in resized .308 mil cases that I had fired and just decapped, no sizing. The case necks were thicker and had a light friction fit on the bullet. I could stay under an inch all day long. Best group with that load and gun was .250" for 5 @100 yds in Dec 1973.
Expediency is making do with what's available and sometimes you even learn a thing or two in the process.

[44man]

You forget danger. A LP primer is not danger in a LR pocket as long as every thing fits. I use LP primers in brass made for rifle primers all day but never the reverse.
Never will tell you it is OK to use a LR primer in a .44.

[white eagle]

you were rite

[BruceB]

Well, you laddies are welcome to abide by YOUR definition of "wrong" or "common sense".

I will only add a few words:

either "It works!" or "Res ipsa loquitor" should suffice.

[DeanWinchester]

Couldn't you just use a primer pocket uniformer to deepen the pistol brass pocket and run LR primers? THen they'd be to the right depth and not be mashed outta whack.

[44man]

Well, you laddies are welcome to abide by YOUR definition of "wrong" or "common sense".

I will only add a few words:

either "It works!" or "Res ipsa loquitor" should suffice.
It comes to FORCE to seat. Destruction to a primer. Seat to bottom and then enough to set the anvil flush. NO MORE. Hand seating is the best, not with tons of force from a press.
Never will I say to force a LR primer into a LP pocket.

[44man]

Couldn't you just use a primer pocket uniformer to deepen the pistol brass pocket and run LR primers? THen they'd be to the right depth and not be mashed outta whack.
Yes, you could and it will not hurt going back to LP primers. But primer pressure is still against you when it pushes a boolit out.
You really need to understand primers. I don't care what anyone does but if there is a hint of danger, you will not hear it from me.

[DeanWinchester]

Yes, you could and it will not hurt going back to LP primers. But primer pressure is still against you when it pushes a boolit out.
You really need to understand primers. I don't care what anyone does but if there is a hint of danger, you will not hear it from me.

Can't argue with that logic.

[Bwana]

Can't argue with that logic.

No; no you can't.

[Larry Gibson]

A year + ago I conducted a test of 44 magnum cartridges loaded with LR primers. The primer pockets had been reamed so the LR primers could be seated normally w/o damage to them during seating. Below is the opening post I started the thread with. Note my last paragraph; I still stand by that.

Larry Gibson


LR primers in the 44 Magnum

Thought I’d just start a new thread instead of digging up the old one. Got a break in the weather so I conducted the test of LR primers in the 44 Magnum. SAAMI MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) for the 44 Magnum is 36,000 psi with a MPSM (Maximum Probable Sample Mean) of 38,800 psi.

The test was conducted with a Contender pistol and the Oehler M43. All tests are 9 or 10 shot test strings. I had 2 FTF with the Contender and 2 of the primers. I used two loads;

RCBS 44-250-K cast of WWs + 2 %tin with a BHN of 16, sized .430 and lubed with Javelina
WW Super 44 Magnum cases (new) with primer pockets reamed for LR primers
WW Super 44 Magnum cases (new) with standard primer pockets with control loads
OAL; 1.711”
Powders; Alliant 2400 (21 gr) & H110 (23 gr)
Results listed as; primer/average velocity (fps)/SD/ES/average PSI (M43)/SD/ES

H110 load;
Control load;
WLP/1400/24/78/21,700/1,200/3,600

LR primer loads;
Rem 9 1/2/1466/47/112/25,200/3,500/8,500
CCI 200/1390/49/141/22,100/1,500/4,200
CCI #34/1507/35/107/28,300/3,000/9,000
WLR/1506/26/85/28,500/2,300/6,000
Fed 215/1544/12/36/31,600/1,500/4,100

Here we see all the psi’s within SAAMI proscribed MAP. We find the control load with WLP primers to be relatively mild. The hotter Fed 215 magnum LR primer produced the most consistent internal ballistics and the highest psi with the highest velocity with H110. No pressure problems observed with using the LR primers in this load with H110 powder.

Alliant 2400 load;
Control load;
Fed 150/1542/18/51/30,800/1,000/2,700

LR primer loads;
Rem 9 1/2/1603/13/37/34,700/500/1,200
CCI 200/1589/20/46/33,000/1,800/5,000
CCI #34/1634/10/27/37,900/1,900/5,500
WLR/1633/8/22/37,600/1,000/2,600
Fed 215/1641/13/29/41,200/1,900/4,100

Here we see some LR primers (the “soft” 9 ½ & 200) are OK with this load keeping the psi under the SAAMI MAP/ However, when magnum level LR primers are used we see the psi going Over the MAP and the Fed 215 psi going over the MPSM. Note the very good internal ballistics with this load of 2400 with all the primers tested. Obviously this load is burning very efficiently in the 30K to 41K psi range.

Obviously the use of LR primers raises the psi in both loads. I’ll leave the question of “is it dangerous” for you all to decide. Note; I was not able to seat LR primers in standard pocket cases without severely scrunching them so the Contender would close or the cylinder of my Colt Anaconda or Ruger BHFT would rotate. To use LR primers in the WW Super cases really requires the primer pockets be reamed out.

[Piedmont]

Larry Gibson comes along and ruins another BSing session with some facts. Shame on you Larry.

[44man]

Yes loads can be used to keep pressures in check but that is not what I meant.
It is boolit movement from a primer with too much pressure itself. With a lubed boolit even with good tension, it takes little to push one out a little.
I worry about the powder like H110 or 296, not 2400 or faster. You do not want any increase in airspace before ignition. I don't think reading from a chrono will detail that but something must be happening as I see such a difference in just a LP and LP mag primer at the target.
I was told to NOT use a LR primer in the .475 or JRH and those cases are large.
After seeing boolits and unburned powder go well into the barrel with the rear of the powder charge discolored and not ignited, I will stay away from that stuff. My fear is ignition with all that stuff down the bore. Nothing against Larry but I don't go where Angels fear to tread, my guns and hands are worth too much to fool around. The 45-70 BFR is shot with LP mag primers too, never a rifle primer, accuracy suffers. My .44's never used a mag LP primer either because of accuracy problems. I don't remember the exact number but I believe a primer can generate 2000 PSI by itself. I will never believe I can hold in a boolit with that much pressure.
It is one of those things you can do for a long time but it takes one time and one time only. Boolit movement is something I never proved and I can't. I can't read primer pressures either and tell you the difference but I darn sure see something.
It gives me pause to recommend certain things.
I have done a lot of work with primers but it is like the rail coming down at the train tracks, you stop your car.
If you just read shotgun load info you see never to change the listed primer even if the same number because you can jump pressures so high it can blow up your gun. I seen it happen with a destroyed Ithaca. Just the wrong primer. The pressure difference between a CCI 209 and a FED 209A is 3,400 PSI.

[IridiumRed]

Ok, I'm not looking to get into / add to an argument, I ask this question out of sincere curiousity -

By seating a primer "too hard" or "too deep" - ie, using more force than usual, putting it farther in than it is designed to be - such as using a LR primer in a LP pocket -

Is there a risk of "sensitizing" the primer? IE, making it require less pressure / force than usual to set it off?

Seems like I've read about that before, but I could be wrong....

But IF thats true, seems like it could add to the potential danger of setting off a primer accidentally. Now, if the primer is seated below flush, I wouldn't expect this to happen in a revolver (if the primer is below flush I dont see how it could hit the recoil plate), or in a semi auto with a non floating firing pin.

But, in a gun with a floating firing pin (such as an AR15, but moreso in say an M1 or M1A / M14), where the pin lightly smacks the primer as the bolt goes home on a regular basis, I could see this increased sensitivity being a problem. Not sure what application this would come into play, I can't think off the top of my head what autos out there would be set up for cartridges with LP primer pockets, but just adding this for sake of argument.

But, there are plenty of tube magazine lever actions out there, if seating a LR primer in a LP pocket sensitizes it, it seems like this could contribute to a tube magazine detonation. I know there is a debate about how often / likely those are, (I think they can occur under the right conditions of bullet point, where the bullet point touches the cartridge in front of it, gun recoil, and the weight of the mag spring...)

Anyways. Just asking..... hope I'm not stirring the pot...

[44man]

Many rifles like the SKS with floating pins need harder primer cups or they will slam fire when the bolt slams shut. Not the same thing.
To force a LR primer to depth in a LP pocket will ruin the compound and maybe remove it from under the anvil. It might not even go off.
To ream the pocket will let more primer pressure from a high pressure primer move the boolit.
To not ream can have a slam fire on the recoil plate from another chamber.
Research to see the .500 S&W was made for a LP mag primer, then changed to a LR primer. Guys missed it and loaded LR primers in LP brass. Guns blew up from slam fires.
Do you really want to force LR primers in LP cases?
I will not give reams of chrono readings. It is just plain unsafe to fool with the wrong primers.
Then accuracy goes away, no group testing was done, just chrono readings. Maybe the worst thing to rely on. To search for the smallest SD's can just go bang.

[Bwana]

"To force a LR primer to depth in a LP pocket will ruin the compound and maybe remove it from under the anvil. It might not even go off."

I agree with this statement to the extent that it may ruin, not necessarily will ruin the priming pellet.

[IridiumRed]

Actually, I was asking if the OPPOSITE was a possibility - that deep seating the primer would SENSITIZE it - make it easier to go off.

Like I said, I dont know a lot of places where this would be a big concern, most of the actions that are really touchy with primer sensitivity already use LR primers... but maybe, just maybe, in a pistol caliber lever action with tube magazine....

[44man]

Actually a proper seated primer IS sensitized because the anvil will go flush with the cup.
The cup on a LR primer is .010" higher so to force it in has to do some bending of the cup. The compound can crack.
The anvil sticks up .008" and should be pushed in the .008" when the primer is seated. Add the .010" crush from a LR primer.
If you NEED to use a LR primer, deepen the pocket .010".

[mfenton]

Can large rifle primers be used in place of large pistol primers in certain handgun cartriges and in certain handguns? For, example, can I use a large rifle primer in a .44 Magnum round that is being fired from a Ruger Blackhawk or a S&W 629?

ThanksIt is not a good idea as rifle primers have thicker metal and can cause misfires as pistols tend to have lesser striking impact than rifles, also pressure issues can occur.


The walls we build to protect ourselves is what confines us.

[44man]

It is not a good idea as rifle primers have thicker metal and can cause misfires as pistols tend to have lesser striking impact than rifles, also pressure issues can occur.


The walls we build to protect ourselves is what confines us.
True, revolvers or single shots for rifle primers have stronger hammer springs.
When I bought my .475, parent case a 45-70 with a LR pocket. I called all and was told NO, do NOT use a LR primer. I use a LP mag only, Fed 155. Even though the pocket will take a LR primer, pressure excursions are out of line.
Do NOT force a LR primer to fit a LP pocket. Do Not cut for a LR primer either.

[Certaindeaf]

I wouldn't do it unless out of absolute necessity and only then, with careful scrutiny, zen style included. However, for like the last ten years I've only been using small rifle primers in my small primer size handguns (they are exactly the same dimensionally).. they are generally good unmodified hammer whackers though.

[jonp]

Old thread but interesting to me as I just tried it with Tula LR Primers in my BH 45 Colt. The cylinder in the BH would not even turn as I could not get the LR to seat flush without damaging them. I thought about reaming out the pockets to see what happened but didn't. Read this today and as usual someone, in this case Larry, has already been down that road.

[69daytona]

I use took my new to me Dan Wesson 445 out, half of the ammo I loaded was large rifle other half was large magnum pistol, both loaded with same load of H110, both primers seated below case by .004 or better.
pistol primer velocity was close to what load should have been, rifle primer cases were almost 200fps higher, was getting slightly over 1600 fps, with a 300 gr gcrfn. Cases buldged above head a lot more but all cases fell right out of cylinder.
iwould say don't do it unless you are shooting a good strong gun like Dan Wesson or Ruger.

[.22-10-45]

There have been reports of pistol primers in black powder cases damaging breech block faces/ peening firing pin holes. the shorter cap gets a running start before slamming into breech face. Not sure if modern bolt guns would have an issue..probably due to too thin case hardening on the single shots. There was an outfit making stainless steel washers press fitted into pocket so as to bring pistol primer to correct height.

[fast ronnie]

Pistol primers have a thinner cup and are NOT SAFE firing in a rifle. Some rifles like the Garand that have a floating firing pin should be loaded with the strongest cups. We were warned about not using Federal magnum primers and to use Winchester magnum primers in the Garand as they have a stronger cup. There is another brand that is also acceptable, but I donn't remember brand. As someone else said, the Garand will leave dimples on the cases as a normal function. A thin or weak primer cup can cause slam fires as well as not having them seated below the surface. Never use pistol primers in a rifle for this reason. IT IS NOT SAFE!!!!!

[longbow]

I'll add my personal experience here from when I was younger and not so smart.

Like many, I figured large rifle primers were fine in handgun cartridges... specifically .44 mag. After all, they are exactly the same diameter and "go in the hole".

In those days I was loading with a plain 'ol Lee Loader. I had noticed that my Marlin (rifle...) was locking up a bit tighter when I used large rifle primers but I didn't investigate any further at the time not really thinking much of it.

Well, I had a few primers go off as I was seating them and couldn't quite figure out why. After a few I became suspicious (yeah I was a bit slow in those days... and some say I still am) so started checking things and sure enough all the rounds loaded with large rifle primers showed the primer a bit proud of the brass. A little further investigation resulted in an education ~ yes, large rifle primers are the same diameter as large pistol primers but they are a few thou taller! That answered that.

I never actually had a problem in the gun and they shot fine but from then on my .44 mag brass got large pistol primers seated in them.

As BruceB mentions, a press can probably squeeze them down without the impact and occasional ignition a mallet and Lee Loader provides.

I can certainly see the potential problem with a slam fire in semi auto gun.

Now after all that, I have to wonder what bonehead decided to make large and small rifle and pistol primers the same diameter but different heights!?! Seems pretty silly to me. If they are different (which they are) make sure they are not interchangeable. However, it is what it is and now we have to deal with it.

Longbow

[44man]

Had a few SKS's here that slam fired hand loads. I turned the firing pins to take a spring and stopped that stuff. I would not use a pistol primer in an auto rifle but they are safe in other guns. I use them in the 30-30 Marlin for better accuracy. The only bolt damage I have seen was form leaking primers, Fed had a few batches where the cups corroded and spit gas. All of my big bore revolvers with brass parent with LR pockets, use only LP primers. Over 50,000 psi. Cut down .460 brass in the .454 went over 55,000 psi with a standard LP primer. LP mag is more accurate.
Depending on head space, ALL primers move back and then are forced back in as brass comes back.
Internal pressure on a primer can make a revolver hammer go to near full cock. No damage to the gun. My .475 and .500 JRH use nothing but Fed 155's and so does my 45-70 BFR. I also use them in a friends .500 S&W.
Do not confuse a slam fire with the ability for a primer to take pressure.

[str8wal]

ok. Thanks for the info.

And, I assume that the shorter large pistol primer would NOT work in a large rifle brass. The firing pin would not be able to reach the shorter large pistol primer when placed in the deeper large rifle brass primer pocket?

I use WLP primers in my 7-30 Waters and they work wonderfully, but it is <42,000 psi.

[C. Latch]

So......what if your LRPs fit into a pistol pocket without sticking out?

I ask ask because I had some brass that needed to be deprimed. I didn't want to throw the primers away and didn't want to put them back in the box so I stuffed them in some .45 colt brass and shot them through my ruger last night. They didn't stick up high. Worked perfectly .


???

[44man]

All primers should be just below flush, fingernail drag feel. if flush it would be OK but remember you can have 2000# more pressure and force out boolits early from primer pressure alone.
A proud primer in a revolver can slam fire against the recoil plate so remember that round is NOT in line with the bore, think of it as a C&B chain fire.
I suggest that you don't even consider it.
Some just seat harder and it can break the compound instead of seating the anvil to sensitize the primer. You can get failures or hang fires.
Punching out live primers can also break the compound and it is a bad idea to re-use them.
The next thing is most revolvers do not have strong enough hammer springs for consistent ignition. A LR primed case needs a 28# spring. Even the 45-70 BFR comes with a 23# for LP primers but is heavier for the .450 Marlin.
I swap to Wolfe 26# over power for LP primers. Accuracy can easily double with a stronger spring.
Primers are nothing to fool with.

[gray wolf]

If you want to shoot LR in a pistol just get a primer pocket uni-former for LR.
It only cuts on the bottom and removes just the amount of Brass to allow the LR primer to fit perfectly.

COST ABOUT 20 OR SO BUCKS made of Carbide.

[Whiterabbit]

and takes FOREVER to fix up your pockets.

I know because I converted 500 brand new 45 colt starline brass to LR pockets using that method. I don;t reload anything that uses small primers, and doing that lets me use LRM primers for EVERYTHING. I stock up only on one type of primer. Winchester LRM. I use it for absolutely every kind of reloading, every cartridge I reload for.

I keep one HUNDRED primers of about every other variant around for the occasional need, but hardly use them. Just the LRM's I keep thousands on hand for.

------------------

so, it can be done.

If I could do it all over, I'd probably try LP or LPM and buy those for everything, but I have too many solid loads all done to change up now.

[44man]

and takes FOREVER to fix up your pockets.

I know because I converted 500 brand new 45 colt starline brass to LR pockets using that method. I don;t reload anything that uses small primers, and doing that lets me use LRM primers for EVERYTHING. I stock up only on one type of primer. Winchester LRM. I use it for absolutely every kind of reloading, every cartridge I reload for.

I keep one HUNDRED primers of about every other variant around for the occasional need, but hardly use them. Just the LRM's I keep thousands on hand for.

------------------

so, it can be done.

If I could do it all over, I'd probably try LP or LPM and buy those for everything, but I have too many solid loads all done to change up now.
Very fast way to do away with accuracy! The difference is real and the amount of primer testing I have done leaves no doubt. I have learned much and was at the point that I could tell you what primer you loaded in the .44 after shooting your loads.
Even the .45 Colt likes a standard LP but the WW has merit but a full mag LP destroys accuracy. I can not fathom a LRM in the caliber.
I use a Fed 155 in the 30-30 rifle and 45-70 revolver and also in the BPCR, 45-70 while some use a LRM in them, NOT needed with BP. I even put a newspaper wad over the primer hole to keep powder out of the flash holes.
I use a primer pocket uniformer but put a .010" shim on it for revolver brass. LRP do not go in mine. When I see a vast difference between a LPM and a LP, I do not want the pressure of a LRM.
Many say to "work loads" but that does not negate primer pressures. I have never worked a load in the .44 or .45 that does as well as a standard primer. It takes the .475 case and up to need a LPM.

[44man]

Primers are important and even more so in a shotgun. You MUST use the right primer for the load.
My friend subbed primers and ruined an Ithaca.
Why do you play with them?

[ole 5 hole group]

If you're interested in uniforming primer pockets and want to do so with little effort but obtain excellent results, consider spending a little money on Sinclair products.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/case-preparation/primer-pocket-tools/uniformers/sinclair-uniformer-kit-with-screwdriver-adaptor-prod36760.aspx?avs%7cManufacturer_1=sinclair+inter national

For approximately 3 decades I uniformed primer pockets (and cleaned primer pockets) using a "custom made" carbide hand primer pocket uniformer and about wore out my wrist and fingers over those decades. One day I saw a fellow benchrest competitor cleaning his primer pockets between relays using a Sinclair powered screwdriver uniformer - Well, that was a great day, as I purchased 3 screwdriver power adapters - one each for LR, LP and SR/SP and the corresponding carbide uniformers and it's one of the best firearm related purchases I've ever made. They were relatively cheap back then, but still, something every half-arsed reloader should have in my opinion. If you really want piece of mind relative to case preparation, you can get their flash hole uniformer as well - works very well and is very fast and easy on your hand/wrist if you chuck the carbide stem in a drill press.;)

In my very humble opinion, I doubt using a standard rifle primer in place of a standard or magnum pistol primer will raise pressure any more than using a CCI 350 magnum pistol primer. I have found the rifle primer gives approximately 25 to 35 fps more than a pistol primer in 44 and larger calibers, using a case calling for a large pistol primer. Accuracy - as with everything, the bullet, powder, primer, case tension and seating depth along with the firearm & the jerk behind the trigger will determine accuracy.

[paul h]

Pistol primers have a thinner cup and are NOT SAFE firing in a rifle. Some rifles like the Garand that have a floating firing pin should be loaded with the strongest cups. We were warned about not using Federal magnum primers and to use Winchester magnum primers in the Garand as they have a stronger cup. There is another brand that is also acceptable, but I donn't remember brand. As someone else said, the Garand will leave dimples on the cases as a normal function. A thin or weak primer cup can cause slam fires as well as not having them seated below the surface. Never use pistol primers in a rifle for this reason. IT IS NOT SAFE!!!!!

The 475 linebaugh operates at 50,000 psi, and uses large pistol primers. So the thinner pistol cups can certainly handle the mild cast bullet loads that many of us on this forum use. So never using large pistol primers in a rifle is a rather bold statement and simply doesn't hold water for all applications. I've used 100's of LP's in my old 35 whelen which was built on a 98 mauser and which had a firing pin that hit with plenty of oomph. Never a pierced primer.

Large pistol primers are not a suitable substitution for full power rifle loads, and may result in pierced cups. Caveat emptor.

[44man]

The 475 linebaugh operates at 50,000 psi, and uses large pistol primers. So the thinner pistol cups can certainly handle the mild cast bullet loads that many of us on this forum use. So never using large pistol primers in a rifle is a rather bold statement and simply doesn't hold water for all applications. I've used 100's of LP's in my old 35 whelen which was built on a 98 mauser and which had a firing pin that hit with plenty of oomph. Never a pierced primer.

Large pistol primers are not a suitable substitution for full power rifle loads, and may result in pierced cups. Caveat emptor.
Good post. The .475 is a short 45-70 case with a LR primer hole but all powder companies I talked to said NO to a LR primer. Uneven and excess pressures.
Even rifles need a certain primer with most just a LR but when brass and powder charge is larger, a LRM is needed. Not a 30-06 but at the 300 mag level.

[ole 5 hole group]

Pierced primers are sort of a mystery to me. The only time I experienced pierced primers on a semi-regular basis was when I had a faulty firing pin (just a tad too long) from a Tubb firing pin of all things. Outside of that, I've never experienced just a pierced primer but I have destroyed a couple cartridge primer pockets and a couple times I was able to retrieve the primer and they were not pierced but then again there were a couple times I think the primer just vaporized and came back at me through the bolt.:veryconfu Every time they vaporized I needed a cheater to open the bolt.

I think most large rifle primers have a 0.027" cup while most large pistol primers have a 0.025" cup. That 0.002" can mean a lot depending upon different circumstances. I have never pierced a large pistol primer and at times I've tried and ran them in some gas awful high pressure cartridges but I would think if you tried hard enough, you just might be able to do it.;) I just never really worry about piercing primers, as it isn't all that easy with the proper firing pin.

[Whiterabbit]

Very fast way to do away with accuracy! The difference is real and the amount of primer testing I have done leaves no doubt. I have learned much and was at the point that I could tell you what primer you loaded in the .44 after shooting your loads.
Even the .45 Colt likes a standard LP but the WW has merit but a full mag LP destroys accuracy. I can not fathom a LRM in the caliber.
I use a Fed 155 in the 30-30 rifle and 45-70 revolver and also in the BPCR, 45-70 while some use a LRM in them, NOT needed with BP. I even put a newspaper wad over the primer hole to keep powder out of the flash holes.
I use a primer pocket uniformer but put a .010" shim on it for revolver brass. LRP do not go in mine. When I see a vast difference between a LPM and a LP, I do not want the pressure of a LRM.
Many say to "work loads" but that does not negate primer pressures. I have never worked a load in the .44 or .45 that does as well as a standard primer. It takes the .475 case and up to need a LPM.


You ever work loads from LPM to LP? Or did you just take a good load with LPM, do nothing but swap to LP and reap an accuracy benefit?

[44man]

You ever work loads from LPM to LP? Or did you just take a good load with LPM, do nothing but swap to LP and reap an accuracy benefit?
Yes, worked loads with each. I thought working loads with the LPM would come in but it never happened. Then the cold responses so at -20° I found all loads did open but the LPM was still worse.
I still believe a primer with more force will move a boolit too fast. Better to have just FIRE. I have subbed the fed 150 with CCI 300's with no adverse affects. The WW is borderline. It works great in the .45 Colt but the .44 is still small.
I called Federal and they NEVER loaded a .44 with mag primers. The nice lady went through the records for me. Should tell you something.
All after market loaders will use a CCI 350. The book says "MAGNUM" after all.
I just looked in my manuals and see the .44 special and mag calls for a magnum primer with any powder. WHAT?