454 Casull & 400 gr boolits

[Tatume]

Hello Folks,

Have any of you worked with this combination? I'm considering working up some loads. From http://hodgdon.com/, it appears that IMR 4227, W296, H110, and Lil Gun work well, with pressures starting in the neighborhood of 30,000 cup running up to around 50,000 cup max. The starting loads are all I want, so it looks like it will be an easy project. If you have any information, I will appreciate hearing about it.

Thanks, Tom

[bobthenailer]

Dont use LIL Gun in the 454 casull period !
I have noticed increased recoil in the 454 from increased bullet weights from 240, 260, 275 to 300 gr the 300 is about the max im comforatble with. i belive they consider a 320 grn cast the ideal bullet weight ? sorry cant help with load data for a 400gr bullet.

[Bullshop]

Back when I was living in timber camps in the Tongas and felt the need I worked up a load for a 400gn boolit in a 6" barrel Freedom Arms. My load used cci srm primers, 25gn H-110 under the 400gn custom.
The combination clocked 1350 fps average velocity.

[44man]

Maybe the worst caliber ever! Why? The primer. Bob said right about Lil-Gun, stay away.
296 and H110 are best but STAY AWAY FROM STARTING LOADS because the primer will not light them off. Use nothing but max loads with these powders.
400 is heavy but is not needed for anything. A 335 gr will do anything. You need to look at the depth the boolit must be seated and if a Freedom it must be DEEEEEP, that raises pressures. You might run into a failure to chamber because the boolit goes too deep in the brass.
The cartridge works best if brass is made for a LP mag primer. You can cut down .460 brass and go to starting loads. Not so with a SR mag primer. Do not believe the junk, I had to pound too many boolits out from reduced starting loads because of the wrong primer.
You are going to be over your head with reduced loads unless you use faster powders.
I don't like this and hate to say some stuff. It generates all kinds of responses but just one failure is one too many. Will you not see it and fire another behind it?
Please stay away from starting loads of 296 or H110 no matter what Hodgdon says.

[bbailey7821]

I luv my FA but i wouldn't go there. Get a Saeco 300gn SWC and it will do anything you want. With a proper W296 load, it will penetrate over 3 ft wet newspaper. Send me a pm and I'll share some data...

[Bullshop]

I have that Saeco 300gn SWC and it has always been my favorite for the 454. I put one of those fired from A Ruger Bisley 45 Colt up the tail pipe of a wounded caribou. Muzzle velocity was 1000 fps and at about 40 yards the boolit exited the chest of that boo. I agree its likely all you need.
The 400gn custom I mentioned earlier was an idea I had after an encounter with a bear at work. I was working in the Tongas national forest and there was no shortage of coastal brown bears. What I wanted was 45/70 performance from my 6" barrel revolver. Everything I ever read about the 45/70 from the very begining said almost in the same words, " the 45/70 has always been a dependable killer of big game"
The first bear I had to kill was with a 44 mag and it didnt come up short at all but it did leave me a bit rattled.
Anyway what I was after was the original BP balistics of the 45/70
The boolit and load mentioned in my first post gave me exactly what I was after. It was is also a very accurate load, for me.
I agree with what has been said here about 300 to 330gn boolits be all you need for anything. I can also tell you this for certain from experiance if you get in a fight with a big bear brown or black and the distance between you and serious injury is twice the length of your body no matter what gun/load you have in your hand it wont seem big enough at that particuler moment in time. Another thing I can say for certain is that if you train and shoot enough when time slows for that moment thoughts dont happen training does. Hold center, follow the front sight, squeeze the trigger, REPEAT!
That bear I mentioned earlier had 4 holes in him from a Ruger RH 44 mag. 1 single action and 3 double action.
It all took about 2 or 3 seconds and when it was over and I had a minute to think about what had happened my leggs began to shake so bad I fell back on my butt and sat there looking back and fourth from my gun to the bear.
The 400/454 never got used for its purpose but it did make me feel a little better about working with them big coastal brown bears.

[RobS]

H110 / 296 will be the better powder with a 400 grainer. I also believe a lighter boolit may fill the needs of the 454 Casull caliber better especially in a revolver however I suppose it depends on the application. I myself shoot 345 grains at the heaviest in the 454 Casull and have great success with this one I designed at such weight:

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-345A-D.png

and then also this one I put together but a bit lighter which I shoot more in my Ruger 45 Colt Bisley and is my heavy for that revolver/caliber:

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-310B-D.png

[Tatume]

Hi Folks,

I agree that bullets in the 300 gr range are ideal, and my favorite is an LBT LFN GC at 320 gr. This bullet is very accurate, and I have loads that run from 1150 - 1500 fps with mil surp powders that allow me to shoot my 454 Casull revolvers frequently and cheaply. My interest in the 400 gr bullets is academic. Thank you for your help.

Take care, Tom

[Lloyd Smale]

in my opinion the optimum bullet for the 454 is a 330-350 grain. Plenty enough case capasity to take advantage of a bit heavier bullet then the 300 thats about ideal for the 45 colt. LBT and ballilstic cast both make excellent 350 grain lfngc molds. I do think a 400 is to heavy and will intruded into the useful powder capasity. I also agree with ditching the lil gun and sticking with 110, 4227, aa9 and 2400. I also recomend you stick with mag small rifle primers with ball powders and standard small rifle with 2400 and if your going to down load at all stay with 2400 or maybe 4227 or better yet try some hs6 or something like unique. For full power loads 110/296 IS THE POWDER that works best in the 454.

[Bullshop]

Milsurp power, would that be WC-820?

[Tatume]

Milsurp power, would that be WC-820?

Yes (1400 fps and above), and M9 and #105 for lower power loads (1150 fps and below).

[44man]

I did a lot of work with the .454 but do not own one. It really could be better. I cut primer pockets to take LP primers and was able to work all loads and find accuracy I could never find with any SR primer.
I will tell you it is a huge pain to cut all pockets for the right fit.
The case is large and thrives on a LP mag primer. The SR primer has pressure but little fire and just goes out too fast. You must keep air space down and the powder at the primer.
The very best was cut down .460 brass because the pockets are way more even then I can cut them from .454 brass.
The next problem was boolit pull with factory cast that was crimped to full profile. Easy to lock the gun in a few shots while my loads with a moderate crimp never pulled because I used case tension.
The caliber is a good backup for bear but if you buy ammo or load wrong, you are a pile of bones. ANY gun failure will get you DEAD.
That is the reason to test a lot before you can depend on any gun. I am never going to suggest anything other then safety. You might shoot starting loads with H110 and 296 and have them fire. But what if? How would you deal with a stuck boolit when a bear is on top of you? What if the cylinder will not rotate. Your pretty gun is useless.
The .454 will fail faster then any other caliber I ever shot. The primer is just wrong.

[Whiterabbit]

I've had excellent luck with 400+ grain bullets in the 460 S&W with a 1 in 16 twist barrel at 10 inches. If your barre is a 1 in 16, I bet you'll have good luck too. I tend to seat my bullets very deep (whatever the powder charge, plunk bullet on top, 100% case fill, no compression) which on average means 1" of powder. I do believe this is in 454 casull territory, depending on what will fit that redhawk cylinder.

For 400 grain class bullets my favorite powders are H110 and IMR4198. However, given it is a smaller case, I would be inclined to substitute SR4759 or H4198 for the IMR. Less bulky IME. H110 is a "hang on" kinda powder for me, but the 4198 type powder and to a lesser extent the 4759 is far more civilized. feels like a 45 acp, hits like a freight train.

I have a strong suspicion that a 400 grain bullet seated to cylinder length with the remaining case full of SR4759 would be just right. That's not a recommendation to load, but rather check and see if the powder charge makes sense in the load data that's out there.

-----------

But I much much prefer slow heavies to fast light-ies. Less recoil, less noise, bigger impact.

[44man]

You need to look at cylinder length too. We tied up a SRH in .454 with factory cast loads. It as a pretty long cylinder. A Freedom will have boolits so close to the end even where you crimp can stop the cylinder from turning let alone a boolit that pulls.
Had the problem with a Freedom .475 and the Lee 400 gr. Just a few thousandths was all it took.
It is still making the gun function when you need it.
You really need some space from the end of the boolit to the end of the cylinder.
Never believe the hype about boolit jump to the cone, it means nothing for accuracy at all.

[Tatume]

I've been trying to keep away from the arguments, but I have to add my personal observation. The 454 Casull was designed for the small rifle primer because the cartridge operates at very high pressure and it was thought that the small rifle primer offered a degree of additional safety. That may or may not be true, and I have no opinion either way.

It is well-established that the large case will lead to misfires if reduced power loads are attempted with slow burning powders such as Accurate #9 and H110. There is little to argue about here, and I've verified it myself (although unintentionally).

Where I'm going to get into trouble is here: I have been loading this cartridge with small rifle primers for many years, for my two personally owned revolvers. I have loaded and fired uncounted thousands of rounds of ammunition. The small rifle primer has never caused an issue with reliability. The use of small rifle primers has been a non-issue for my entire, considerable experience with the 454 Casull cartridge.

[44man]

Not pressure since a LP mag will take over 55,000 psi. When Dick started he used duplex and triplex loads. That is where the SR came from. It is just not needed.
You say you had some problems with reduced loads---TRUE.
Load to near or at max with slow powders.

[Whiterabbit]

It is well-established that the large case will lead to misfires if reduced power loads are attempted with slow burning powders such as Accurate #9 and H110. There is little to argue about here, and I've verified it myself (although unintentionally).

Seat bullet deeper, to 100% case fill, and its not a problem.

I'm not saying there aren't better powders for the job. But keep case fill at 100% and we'll all be just fine.

[PWS]

in my opinion the optimum bullet for the 454 is a 330-350 grain. Plenty enough case capasity to take advantage of a bit heavier bullet then the 300 thats about ideal for the 45 colt. LBT and ballilstic cast both make excellent 350 grain lfngc molds...

I'm with you on the ~350 grain bullets - great compromise of weight and velocity plus they aren't nearly as LOUD as lighter slugs.

What mold # would you suggest for a Ballisti-Cast in a Model 83? My 360LFN LBT is pretty much worn out.

[Lloyd Smale]

Im not totaly convinced like 44man is that large primer cases cure all the troubles and are more accurate. I did some testing last summer using my go to loads with 454 brass using the ww small rifle primer i allways use in the 454 and 460smith cases cut down with fed mag and cci 350s. I shot quite a few loads with each combo and it some cases the 460 cases did better and in some the small primer cases did better. I think its a matter of finding a sweat spot with the powder and the primer your using just like in any other pistol loading. Ive never had hang fires with the ww small rifle primers with any loads other then downloaded wc820 and ive had the same problems doing that in 45 colt cases wiht large primers so i cant blame the primers for that. I personaly think if a guy loads the 454 properly to high enough pressures to burn the powder hes using the small primers work well. Down loading a 454 isnt something it was designed for. It was designed like a ferrari to run at the limits of sanity. Its not a prius and shouldnt be made into on. If you want to shoot pop gun loads get a 45 colt and a can of bullseye. To me its about like throwing a harness on a throughbread race horse and asking it to plow the field. I really doubt if dick cassul was conserned with how well small rifle powders lit of 30000 psi loads.

[Tatume]

... If you want to shoot pop gun loads get a 45 colt and a can of bullseye. To me its about like throwing a harness on a throughbread race horse and asking it to plow the field. I really doubt if dick cassul was conserned with how well small rifle powders lit of 30000 psi loads.

Nevertheless, the 454 Casull can and will operate at the level of Ruger 45 Colt loads quite nicely, if one is willing to take the time to develop ammo. My loads with 320 LBT LFN GC bullets and mil surp M9 or #105 run at 1150 fps. They are pleasant to shoot, reliable with small rifle primers, and very accurate. The same performance could be achieved with Unique.

My guns are a Ruger Redhawk and a 6" Freedom Arms M83. I considered getting a 45 Colt cylinder for the FA and decided against it. I did not want to have 45 Colt ammo in the house that was too powerful for my Ruger 45 Colt revolvers. So I set out to develop loads that would accomplish my goals in 454 Casull cases, and was quite successful. If you're willing to put in the effort, it can be done (and without much difficulty, I might add).

The 454 Casull gives me the best of both worlds. I can shoot my 320 grain bullet at 1150 fps or 1500 fps, my choice.

[44man]

It is the powder. NO reduced loads with H110 or 296. The SR primer works fine with full loads or other powders. The difference I found was I could reduce H110 and 296 with a LP mag primer and work loads for accuracy.
To run a .454 at .45 Colt is fine but not what I would buy the gun for. Just shoot .45 Colt ammo.
Some buy a .500 and then look for .38 loads because the gun is too much. Don't buy it if you can't handle it. The .454 is a race car, not a Volkswagon.

[PWS]

LBT and ballilstic cast both make excellent 350 grain lfngc molds.

Bit of a hi-jack but is the Ballisti-Cast you're talking about the #1419 or maybe the #1421?

Back on topic, I've shot the RCBS 45-405FN at 420grains in my Model 83. It was no problem to break 1200fps with H110 or W296 but barrel time and muzzle jump made it shoot 24" higher than standard loads at 50yards. Never saw the need to do much with those heavier slugs as ~350grainers will penetrate 4' of flesh and bone with no signs of veering off course.

[lar45]

I have a Taurus Raging Bull and tried some 405's in it one time. I could not get them to stabilize at any velocity. I was getting 3" groups at 50 yds, but with key holes.
My best accuracy comes in with a 350gn mould from Mountain Molds and 26gns of WC820 for 1350fps. I did run into some problems getting it to light off in cold weather, so I switched to a mag primer and that fixed it.

[PWS]

Looked up the load I used under the 420gr RCBS. All CCI SR standard primers, F-A brass, 1.750" OAL, 7 1/2" barrel.

19gr H110 => 1175fps avg
20gr H110 => 1225fps avg

It's been a while but IIRC, 20grains was heavily compressed but the RCBS bullet has a smaller meplat and a lot of bullet was in the case.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree totaly. If i want 1100 fps loads ive own a few nice 45 colts that will get me there and a bit more if nessisary. If im going to spend 2k on a 454 im going to use it as a 454. Personaly its far from my favorite caliber anyway. Id much rather hunt with a 475 shooting a 400 grain bullet at 1300 then with a 454 shooting 350s with smaller meplats to velocitys that really dont even make sense. I also agree with the downloading of 110 and 296 and 820. Why do it when theres proper powders that do it much better and safer. But your kind of shooting your arguements against the 454 in the foot. You bad mouth the round saying the small primer never made sense and doesnt work. But then turn around and say with full power loads, loads you just like me think is what should be shot in it, the small primer works fine. Like i said bob baker didnt design this gun to roll beer cans sunday morning after church. He designed it to kill the largest animals in the world. Reduced loads probably werent even discussed as im sure he figured anyone who wanted to shoot 1100 fps loads allready had ruger 45colts and wouldnt spend 4 times the money to keep shooting what they allready shot. Sure a 454 or for that matter a 475 or 500 linebaugh can be made to shoot pop gun loads if you dont have another gun to go out with on sunday morning but most who own these big guns have a safe full of plinkers. Run the 454 like it was designed to be run and it will do just what it was designed to do. I will kill ANYTHING you poke with it.
It is the powder. NO reduced loads with H110 or 296. The SR primer works fine with full loads or other powders. The difference I found was I could reduce H110 and 296 with a LP mag primer and work loads for accuracy.
To run a .454 at .45 Colt is fine but not what I would buy the gun for. Just shoot .45 Colt ammo.
Some buy a .500 and then look for .38 loads because the gun is too much. Don't buy it if you can't handle it. The .454 is a race car, not a Volkswagon.

[44man]

Lloyd, it has always been the ability to work the slow powders with the SR primer, in every post I ever made. It is looking for the accuracy the caliber is capable of without going full max.
I seen boolits stick in the bore with unburned powder with only 1/2 gr reduction of 296.
If I had one it would be used at the accuracy point with heavy hunting loads, never with .45 Colt loads. I have a .45 Colt.
Same as my .44, .475, .500 JRH and 45-70. Not a single one is ever downloaded all year for my normal shooting. I am guilty of reducing to Unique with a light boolit in the .44 and .45 maybe once every 5 or 10 years for cans.
But the .454 is for H110 and 296, the SR primer can get you in trouble if you reduce loads and everyone needs to know so they don't get hurt.
I know what to do but loading manuals show loads that are dangerous for a beginner. Can you imagine someone rapping off shots double action or shooting a SA as fast as he can cock the gun with a reduced load?
There is where we differ, safety.
I have proven the .454 can be shot with reduced loads of 296 with a standard LP primer but the LP mag is more accurate.
You can't confuse powder choices like 2400 or faster, never what I said.
I stand by what I said, do NOT reduce H110 or 296 with a SR primer of any kind.
If you use 2400 or Unique, go for it.

[Whiterabbit]

I agree totaly. If i want 1100 fps loads ive own a few nice 45 colts that will get me there and a bit more if nessisary. If im going to spend 2k on a 454 im going to use it as a 454.

I shoot 1100 loads and LESS from my 460 S&W, and I believe I am still using it as a 460 S&W. With a large chamber and high pressure capabiliy, you DO have two directions to go to surpass 45 colt: same weight bullets shot fast. Really really heavy bullets shot at the same velocity.

I've never seen a 454 pistol that can shoot 540+ grain bullets with ease and accurate. I can do it with absolute ease.

While I agree 100% that there's no reason to buy a 454 along with 454 brass just to load it with trailboss and 45acp bullets for most of its diet, I DONT believe that the alternative to the same bullets shot at warp ridiculous is to waste the capability.

Maybe the FA can't handly super heavies, and that avenue is closed. Then I get it. I get the idea that buying increased case capacity over a 45 colt can only be taken advantage of via hot loading light bullets.

But at the end of the day I STILL do not believe that 1100 fps (without knowing bullet weight) is always "wasting" a 45 magnum.

[Whiterabbit]

For the record I agree with 99% of everything you guys are saying. But if I had a 454, I'd be experimenting with the largest bullet I could get to stabilize to 100 yards. For no other reason that I don't like the design concept of using case capacity to shoot light bullets faster. That's like using a 458 lott to shoot <300 grain bullets faster than a 45win mag can. Sure that would "justify" the larger case but its better (IMO) to justify the larger case by using it to launch heavier solids that the 45WM struggles to. I think of the 454 (and 460) in exactly the same way.

[Tatume]

I shoot 1100 loads and LESS from my 460 S&W, and I believe I am still using it as a 460 S&W. ...
But at the end of the day I STILL do not believe that 1100 fps (without knowing bullet weight) is always "wasting" a 45 magnum.

Hi Rabbit,

Whether it is "wasting" or not, it's still nobody's business but my own. I personally like to shoot a couple of hundred 320 gr bullets at 1150 fps, and shoot the same bullet at about 1400 fps less frequently. It's what I like to do. I don't tell other people they are stupid if they only shoot at maximum velocity, and I don't appreciate them telling me the converse.

It's one thing to voice an opinion. It's another to humiliate people. Thank you for your support.

Take care, Tom

[Lloyd Smale]

are you talking loads a 1/2 grain below listed minimums in the manuals or 1/2 a grain less then max loads. Ive loaded 454s for 15 years at least and using ANY load listed in ANY loading manual ive never had a squib using ANY primer and as you know its sure not unheard of for me to be shooting in below zero weather.
Lloyd, it has always been the ability to work the slow powders with the SR primer, in every post I ever made. It is looking for the accuracy the caliber is capable of without going full max.
I seen boolits stick in the bore with unburned powder with only 1/2 gr reduction of 296.
If I had one it would be used at the accuracy point with heavy hunting loads, never with .45 Colt loads. I have a .45 Colt.
Same as my .44, .475, .500 JRH and 45-70. Not a single one is ever downloaded all year for my normal shooting. I am guilty of reducing to Unique with a light boolit in the .44 and .45 maybe once every 5 or 10 years for cans.
But the .454 is for H110 and 296, the SR primer can get you in trouble if you reduce loads and everyone needs to know so they don't get hurt.
I know what to do but loading manuals show loads that are dangerous for a beginner. Can you imagine someone rapping off shots double action or shooting a SA as fast as he can cock the gun with a reduced load?
There is where we differ, safety.
I have proven the .454 can be shot with reduced loads of 296 with a standard LP primer but the LP mag is more accurate.
You can't confuse powder choices like 2400 or faster, never what I said.
I stand by what I said, do NOT reduce H110 or 296 with a SR primer of any kind.
If you use 2400 or Unique, go for it.

[Lloyd Smale]

A lot of this is just personal opinions. Just because i dont download the 454 i sure know that probably more do download it then think along my lines. Again personal opinion but Im not toteing around a 5 lb revolver to no matter how fast it pushes a bullet or how heavy a bullet it will shoot and if a 45 cal bullet that weights 350 grain out of a 454 or even a 45 colt for that matter doesnt penetrate and kill what your shooting at then you must have a time machine and be hunting t rex!!


Personaly i dont see a use for a bullet over 500 grain in even the 500 linebaugh 500 max 500smith or yes even the 50ak out of a rifle. The only one i even use a bullet that weights 500 grains in is the 50ak. Ive seen enough penetration testing done to know theres a point of diminishing returns. Ive been around shooting and hunting with big bore revolvers for over 20 years and will say without hesitation that shooting 540s grain 45s out of a 460 smith is done just to say you did it. It is absolutely no more effective on game at the velocitys its capable of shooting them then a 400 grain bullet would be. heck ive seen 475s shooting 420s outpenetrate even african stopping rifles in penetration testing at the linebaugh seminar. Ive also seen a 420 lfn out of a 475 completely penetrate a 2000 lb bufflao breaking both shoulders doing it. Why would you need a bullet that worked any better.


My guess is that alot of it is due to the fact a guy isnt trying to shoot a 550 grain bullet which is harder to stablilize and because of this it will do a better job of staying stable and tracking straight though an animal. I will also say this. The heaviest bullets ive seen any 454 handle with good accuracy is a 350 grain and with its case capasity it might do pretty well with a 375-400 grain bullet but truth be told its proably taken every species of game in the world with 350s.


Now before everyone gets there nose out of joint because i bashed there favorite gun or load remember i said this was MY opinion and i never said it was the only opinion or even the only right opinion. My 475s and 500 linebaughs are all I want in power. I dont need a 500 smith or even a 500 linebaugh max. If i cant kill it with a 475 shooting a 420 at 1300 fps or a 500 shooting a 480 at 1200 ill leave the handgun at home and take a rifle and if my handgun has to be carried with a sling or in a shoulder holster ill just sling a rifle over my shoulder. Same goes with scoped handguns. No thanks.
I shoot 1100 loads and LESS from my 460 S&W, and I believe I am still using it as a 460 S&W. With a large chamber and high pressure capabiliy, you DO have two directions to go to surpass 45 colt: same weight bullets shot fast. Really really heavy bullets shot at the same velocity.

I've never seen a 454 pistol that can shoot 540+ grain bullets with ease and accurate. I can do it with absolute ease.

While I agree 100% that there's no reason to buy a 454 along with 454 brass just to load it with trailboss and 45acp bullets for most of its diet, I DONT believe that the alternative to the same bullets shot at warp ridiculous is to waste the capability.

Maybe the FA can't handly super heavies, and that avenue is closed. Then I get it. I get the idea that buying increased case capacity over a 45 colt can only be taken advantage of via hot loading light bullets.

But at the end of the day I STILL do not believe that 1100 fps (without knowing bullet weight) is always "wasting" a 45 magnum.

[44MAG#1]

While they aren't revolvers an Encore 12 inch 454 wil stablize a 515 gr bullet VERY well.
The reason is they are a 1-16 twist barrel.
I shoot 515 gr bullets in mine and due to the long throat I can seat the bullet out, run 1250 fps and have a fun gun to do limited blasting with (they do back-up some).
I have ran loads close to the 1350 fps level. Remember original 500 gr 45/70 BP load power from a 12 inch barrel.
Mine isn't scoped.
I also use 45 Colt cases too along with 454 cases just seat to the same OAL.. The load looks stupid with the bullet seated out but who cares. The Encore load wise is more flexible than the revolver.
I also have a 420 gr LBT for the 454 and it is better out of the Encore stabilitywise than my revolvers.
But, who am I to add anything.

[44man]

Nothing to do with boolit weight or velocity at all.
Problems were only with starting loads of the two powders mentioned and as we worked up, problems stopped with only 1/2 gr more powder.
I have nothing recorded in my book because I do not own a .454.
I attribute it to the primer. You can take it or leave it.
I have gotten a lot of static for years but I will not go back on my word.
Don't fool with reduced loads of H110 or 296. Book reduced loads are no guarantee at all. Load close to or at max with these powders.
OTHER POWDERS DO NOT APPLY.

[Whiterabbit]

Personaly i dont see a use for a bullet over 500 grain in even the 500 linebaugh 500 max 500smith or yes even the 50ak out of a rifle. ......will say without hesitation that shooting 540s grain 45s out of a 460 smith is done just to say you did it. It is absolutely no more effective on game at the velocitys its capable of shooting them then a 400 grain bullet would be.


Why would you need a bullet that worked any better.


To answer your question, accuracy. If the 540 shoots candles out and the 300 grain bullet makes dinner plate sized groups even when rested, well sometimes we need all the help we can get to put the bullet in the right spot. My 45 is 1 in 16 also.

But really, I DO agree with everything you said that I can, and believe everything you suggest that I don't have personal experience with yet.

[Lloyd Smale]

Oh im not arguing with you, fact is i agree totaly. Would the 454 been better served if it was designed for large primers? probably. What ive found experimenting with the larger primer brass is it sure didnt hurt but it didnt make enough differnce (at least with loads i shoot (full power) ) to make it worth the bother cutting down 460 brass.


I totaly agree that 110/296 and even 820/aa9 should never be dropped below suggested starting loads. IF for no other reason they just dont burn well at low pressures and usualy give some funky chrono readings. Ive never had a squib load with any of them but have noticed differnt tones when firing a string that sure showed i was close. Thats why i allways suggest using cci350s with them. Bottom line is there harder to light off then most powders and 350s take care of most of the problems. It will allow you to get away with a bit more downloading. Id never do it in a 454 with small primers though.


So yes i think your problems were primer related but if you would have done the same with large primer brass and a standard primer id bet you could have seen the same results. Im no expert but from experience id have to say that a mag small rifle primer has more snort then a standard large pistol primer. Id also guess that a cci350 has more snort then a mag small rifle and that same small rifle mag has just as much snort as a ww mag/standard primer which is the primer ww uses for its factory mag ammo using 296. Where i dont agree with you is that in your opinion this is only a problem in the 454. Ive seen it on my own chronograph show up using 110 and 820 in 44 mags and 45 colts using standard primers too. People can tell me till there blue in the face that 110 and 820 work best with standard primers but i have to believe the chrono readings ive seen doing it with my own two eyes. Funny thing is a prominent gun writer writes an article claiming its so and claims its so not from actually testing it but because somebody at the powder company said so and all of a sudden his word is gold. Again do what you want to but i know better. Probably sold some magazines and no doubt made a few new internet experts. ;)
Nothing to do with boolit weight or velocity at all.
Problems were only with starting loads of the two powders mentioned and as we worked up, problems stopped with only 1/2 gr more powder.
I have nothing recorded in my book because I do not own a .454.
I attribute it to the primer. You can take it or leave it.
I have gotten a lot of static for years but I will not go back on my word.
Don't fool with reduced loads of H110 or 296. Book reduced loads are no guarantee at all. Load close to or at max with these powders.
OTHER POWDERS DO NOT APPLY.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive never heard that the smith 460s did pourly with 300 grain bullets. I thought thats what they were designed for, 300s at near rifle velocitys with pretty red tips. Accuracy so spectacular that 200 yard deer were a given. I guess to be honest id rather shoot one with 540 cast bullets then with any of those stupid looking lipstick bullets. Enough to make Elmer roll over in his grave!! :)
To answer your question, accuracy. If the 540 shoots candles out and the 300 grain bullet makes dinner plate sized groups even when rested, well sometimes we need all the help we can get to put the bullet in the right spot. My 45 is 1 in 16 also.

But really, I DO agree with everything you said that I can, and believe everything you suggest that I don't have personal experience with yet.

[Whiterabbit]

the difference is 1 in 16 vs gain twist of the X-frame.

[44man]

I never went below a starting listed load for the .454 using H110 or 296.
Many fired fine and a failure could be the first or the 30th shot, maybe 50 but there was always a failure. I have to draw the line somewhere because we should load a lifetime without a failure. As I worked up from starting loads, failures decreased and stopped near max, max and over max.
Using the cut down .460 brass and a Fed 150, NO LOAD failed. However the 155 was more accurate.
Primer SNORT or lack of enough compound in the SR mags. I don't know but think the fire went out. Boolits were pushed a long way into the bore with all the powder behind it. Just a few grains at the rear discolored.
Not fun to remove the cylinder and pour the powder out of the bore and beat the boolit out. Someone is going to fire a shot behind the stuck boolit. I don't want to go there, I won't go there and I will not tell anyone to go there.
If you use a SR primer, load to max with H110 and 296.
The .44 with a Fed 150 works from starting to max and I have used the 150 since about 1979 when I found they work better. Every IHMSA shoot I won was with a Fed 150.
Fed has never loaded their .44's with a mag primer.
WW LP primers are not as high a pressure as a mag primer. They are a decent choice. They work great in heavy .45 Colt loads with 296 and are better then the 155 or 350 primers. I still use a 150. I would not reject the WW primer.
I really do have a problem with any failure, it should not be. Even boolit pull to tie up a gun is a failure. We must reload better then what you buy and be safe.
Someone is sure to say a WW primer is a full mag but nothing I have done shows that.