Grease from ATF and soap?

[Marlin Junky]

I was doing a little reading regarding the attributes of paraffinic vs. naphthenic oils with respect to grease making and got to wondering, why not try soaping up an ATF? I think I'll initially try a cheapo Wally World brand, but which formulation? I believe there are some formulations that are friction modified and some that are not. Anyway, what does that mean? Do the manufacturers add components to increase friction or decrease it? I assume the manufacturers are playing with the shifting characteristics when they use "friction modifiers".

MJ

[mdi]

Outta my league, but I think I'd start with an MSDS to identify the components of different ATFs...

[Marlin Junky]

Looks like there's little difference between the Dexron and Mercon specifications. There was (still is, I guess) a Ford spec that called for different (lack of?) friction modifiers. The Mobil brand that's 100% synthetic might be interesting... assuming it's cheap enough and available at Wally World.

MJ

[rlb]

Type F usually is the gritty stuff. Lets the clutches slip less when shifting is how I understood it.

[Marlin Junky]

Type F usually is the gritty stuff. Lets the clutches slip less when shifting is how I understood it.

Yeah, your right... I found this somewhere on Mobil's website:

"The frictional characteristics of an automatic transmission fluid are an important factor in the design and operation of the transmission. All Ford transmissions built prior to 1977, and certain models that continued in use during 1977-1980, were designed for a high-friction fluid that allowed the shifting clutches to lock up or engage quickly. Ford specification M2C 33F covers this type of product, which is commonly referred to as "Type F" fluid."

I don't know about "gritty" but the flash point of only 320F turns me away from melting soap in it?

MJ

P.S. Actually, other sources indicate most ATFs have flash points of 400F or more, so that's better news. I've gotta take my wife to Wally World this week so I'll entertain myself in the automotive department... need to buy extra Ivory and some canning paraffin too. :bigsmyl2:

[Marlin Junky]

OK... 4 Tbs of Dexron VI and 2 Tbs of powdered Ivory makes a nice grease but it's too difficult to dissolve in beeswax at under 225F (I don't want to scorch the beeswax). Next, I'll make an ATF/paraffin solution and toss in the Ivory at around 325F. I think paraffin will provide the flex I'm looking for (in the final lube) and a lower percentage of soap may result in a melt temp down around 220F so the "grease" will easily dissolve in beewax and/or BW-430.

MJ

[bruce381]

modern atfs are all HVI nutreal oils of normally 4 cSt @ 100C with a full additve systems for oxidation and friction properties, to give the right amopunt of slip for a smooth takeoff. Newer spec like the dex 6 and Allsion 295 require some or all PAO or GPIII syn base stocks to resist shear loss.

probably no advantage to gelling ATF vs a Motor oil or gear oil for boolit lube

[Marlin Junky]

Hey Bruce...

The reason I was gelling the ATF was simply to increase lube melt temp. I'm finding out that it's better to dissolve the ATF in petroleum jelly, then add soap followed by paraffin and finally beeswax.

More to follow.

Thanks for your interest.

MJ

[leftiye]

If you think of Dr. T's Tranny Goo as vaseline, you're almost back to the stuff now being investigated on the Extreme loob thread. I have thought that transmission fluid may have a bunch of possibly troublesome additives in it. Motor oil soaped into grease has its possibilities though.

[runfiverun]

motor oil soaped into grease is still grease.

[Marlin Junky]

I have thought that transmission fluid may have a bunch of possibly troublesome additives in it.

That's gonna need some elaboration if you're trying to convince me ATF doesn't belong in boolit lube. AFT doesn't seem to have a negative effect on Ben's Red and is a very "high-tech" oil.

MJ

[x101airborne]

Lots of lubes use ATF of one type or another. Never heard of motor oil, but I don't read a lot of recipies.

[Marlin Junky]

I want to get a good baseline with respect to accuracy from my '06 using MML Purple and Red formulations, then I'll actually start shooting Dexron VI. In the meantime, I'm looking for a reasonable quantity of BW-436 for experimenting. I can get high temp paraffin locally but only if I purchase 55 pounds.

Before one can wring out a lube though, one needs to have a good supply of the best, most consistent boolits possible. I have been shooting plain base boolits in my '06 lately and blew one test due to ignoring age hardening. Specifically, the alloy I cast the most boolits from was shot about a week after casting and registered BHN 14+ (air cooled) and shot pretty darn well backed by 12.5 grains of Blue Dot (this was a few weeks ago, i.e., not the 10 shot group I posted yesterday). Then, I loaded up about 20 rounds of the same boolit for a shoot about two weeks later with 13.0 grains of Blue Dot. The results were discouraging... awful group a bit of leading near the muzzle and roughness detected near the chamber with a bronze brush. The velocity increase over the 12.5 grain load was a measly 45 fps. Fortunately, I have enough experience not to instantly blame the lube (MML Purple) or the additional 45 fps and decided to perform a hardness test on boolits from that identical batch. Sure 'nuff... they registered about 18 BHN... nearly 25% harder than those shot earlier with 12.5 grains of Blue Dot.

The next step was to toss a bit of solder into my "working" alloy and try it all over again with a fresh batch of boolits and 12.5 grains of Blue Dot. The result is posted here (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?184749-Longer-30-cal-plain-base-question) (post #15). Adding the solder did not change the BHN noticeably (still between 14.5 & 15 BHN) but the as-cast boolit weights were about 1/2 grain (196-198 nominal) lower; and, the 10 shot horizontal deviation was significantly reduced with respect to the earlier 12.5/BD group shot before tin addition. The target shot before the addition of tin has not been posted but it's horizontal span is nearly 30% greater than the target shot with the "tin-enriched" boolits.

MJ

[leftiye]

motor oil soaped into grease is still grease.

I hear you. - and grease is too lubricating? Yes? The new goo has seemed to throw things into a completely new perspective.

[leftiye]

That's gonna need some elaboration if you're trying to convince me ATF doesn't belong in boolit lube. AFT doesn't seem to have a negative effect on Ben's Red and is a very "high-tech" oil. MJ

I was referring to Bruce's comment "probably no advantage to gelling ATF vs a Motor oil or gear oil for boolit lube." And R5R's "motor oil soaped into grease is still grease" probably answers both variations.

[Marlin Junky]

I was referring to Bruce's comment "probably no advantage to gelling ATF vs a Motor oil or gear oil for boolit lube." And R5R's "motor oil soaped into grease is still grease" probably answers both variations.

OK, so what are the troublesome additives? Those additives are in there to widen the operating temperature range and modify friction. Most ATFs contain additives that improve lubricating qualities, lower wear, inhibit rust/corrosion, modify viscosity under hot and cold conditions, etc, etc,... so what's not to like? Perhaps someone else can explain what's in gear oil.

MJ