45-70 BP vs Smokeless

[crabo]

Compare and contrast black powder and smokless in a modern rifle like the Thompson Centers. (sounds like an English assignment for school)

I am toying with the idea of a 45-70 in one of the Thompson Center rifles. I have a friend that shoots a lot of BPRC. Any advantages of shooting black powder in a modern gun, other than the smoke and fun factor? Does the BP work better at long range?

Am I crazy?

Thanks,

Crabo

[Bent Ramrod]

The low-tech nuances you learn in the course of finding a proper black powder load and making it perform might in some cases transfer to greater attention to detail in your higher-tech smokeless loading, and perhaps some benefits gained thereby.

Most of the people who like black powder loaded black powder cartridges for hunting are doing it for tradition's sake. I guess you could follow that if you wish, but generally the traditionalists follow through with replication of the original guns as well as the loads.

Of course, some competitions require that black powder cartridges be loaded with black powder. These games also typically demand original rifles or replica duplicates. A T/C with an outside hammer might get into a semiformal club match, where they need to fill the relays, but it would probably be disallowed at any big match.

It would certainly be an advantage in a doomsday scenario where all you could get was black powder. Someone with a Diesel generator waiting Armageddon in cosmolene and a basement full of hoarded toilet paper probably would need a black-powder loading for his survival rifle, and a method of making the powder itself.

Of course, there are those folks who opine that smokeless powder is merely a passing fad. If you think that smokeless will soon be a historical curiosity like Nehru jackets and mood rings, I guess that would be another reason.

Other than these (and the fun factor) I can't see any other benefits to loading a modern rifle with blackpowder loads.

[omgb]

If you take the time to learn the process and you use quality components, BP is going to turn in far better groups beyond 200 yards than you are going to get with smokeless. Now, having said that, lots of guys are going to disagree. However, those of us who routinely use BP cartridge guns will tell you that BP is the way to go for long range accuracy. At 100 yards and less, the difference is not so great. The key is the velocity variation. With BP, shot to shot variation runs 17fps or less! Try that with smokeless and you'll find it's impossible to duplicate. At extrema ranges, that small variation pays off big time. Every second that bullet is in flight the wind is acting on it. change that time of flight, (TOF) by just a few 10ths of a second and groups will open significantly.

The trick is that BP takes some skill and some attention to detail. Every shot down the barrel potentially changes the dynamics due to powder fouling. All of this can be ameliorated but, you must know the tricks and you must perform them the same way each time. Therein lies the challenge.

[kodiak1]

Well put omgb. X2
Ken.

[35remington]

I don't find it particularly hard to duplicate the low extreme spreads of blackpowder using smokeless loads. The key is using a heavy bullet (as the blackpowder shooters do) and loading it to high loading density. If the smokeless powder itself does not fill the case, dacron fiber may be employed to do the same thing.

Low extreme spreads are as simple as that. No alchemy or "black powder only" to it.

Fouling isn't quite the problem with smokeless. While neither powder type may own the absolute key to accuracy, and small details matter regarding accuracy, certainly smokeless offers higher velocities. Assuming your rifle is up to it, of course.

[45 2.1]

If you take the time to learn the process and you use quality components, BP is going to turn in far better groups beyond 200 yards than you are going to get with smokeless.With BP, shot to shot variation runs 17fps or less! Try that with smokeless and you'll find it's impossible to duplicate.
The trick is that BP takes some skill and some attention to detail. Every shot down the barrel potentially changes the dynamics due to powder fouling. All of this can be ameliorated but, you must know the tricks and you must perform them the same way each time. Therein lies the challenge.

I've gotten 0.30 MOA 4570 Smokeless groups at far further than 200 yds. Since you opine that its impossible to beat BP loads, lets see what your doing in terms of MOA.

[omgb]

Told ya, guys were going to disagree. I wish I had some tragets handy to report on what i've done, but honestly, my results wouldn't hold a candle to what Kelly Roos or Kenny W turn in routinely, they simply are better shots than I am.

The deal is, at BP velocities in BP cases, BP works better. Now honestly, with smokeless in cartridges like the 300 Win Mag, the higher velocity and shortened TOF makes for some really impressive 1000 yard groups that do equal or exceed BPCR groups. There are simply fewer variables that tend to make for higher scores.

But, using BP cases at BP velocities, BP is going to turn in the better scores and tighter groups. Unfortunately, I do not have the evidence at hand to back this statement up. I moved a month ago and things are all over the place. But my experience both in my own guns and observing others in the BPCR sport lead me to the conclusions I've offered. But, without the evidence at hand, my statements are worth what you paid for them. :roll:

[omgb]

Point of clarification, I said the shot to shot velocity variation was impossible to duplicate with smokeless not the sub M.O.A. groupings. I have no doubt you have acheived the groups you report.

[45 2.1]

Point of clarification, I said the shot to shot velocity variation was impossible to duplicate with smokeless not the sub M.O.A. groupings. I have no doubt you have acheived the groups you report.

Talk is cheap...!!! Low single digits for smokeless in shot to shot variation is quite possible IF you put the time in to find out. Something the BP guys do also, but it seems to be something the smokeless guys don't do. There is a BIG difference between watching someone else and doing it yourself. If you can do it with BP, it can be done with smokeless, except for the stinky smoke deal along with nasty cases.

As for your claims, why don't BPCR shoots allow smokeless powder if they can beat smokeless groups at long range. Gives you something to think about. Unfair advantage maybe.

[45 2.1]

Told ya, guys were going to disagree. I wish I had some tragets handy to report on what i've done, but honestly, my results wouldn't hold a candle to what Kelly Roos or Kenny W turn in routinely, they simply are better shots than I am. Your welcome to post their group sizes in terms of MOA if you want.

The deal is, at BP velocities in BP cases, BP works better. Now honestly, with smokeless in cartridges like the 300 Win Mag, the higher velocity and shortened TOF makes for some really impressive 1000 yard groups that do equal or exceed BPCR groups. There are simply fewer variables that tend to make for higher scores. My groups were shot with a Navy Arms rolling block in 4570 with a Lyman 17A front with Shaver crosshair insert and a Parts Unknown Soule with their version of the Hadley eyecup. Boolit was the Saeco 1881 version of the Government 500 gr. RN. Bottleneck cartridges are quite unfair in comparisons of powder types here. I've worked with BP for a long time and it hasn't compared to smokeless in my rifles yet.

[felix]

Normal black powder (no exotic oxidizers) simply requires grain proximity for a smooth burn curve, whereas smokeless depends upon container pressure for same. Get those two corresponding factors just right, and you should not see one iota of difference at the paper target. But that is the challenge entirely: getting those two factors exactly the same for the same boolit-gun. ... felix

[August]

Notice the abstract nature of the above discussion....

Smokeless works great, with low ES numbers, in modern cartridges -- like the WSMs for instance.

Black Powder works great in the cartridges that were designed around it -- like the 45-70.

The 45-70 was used exclusively with black powder for over a quarter of a century.

Why mess with perfection?

Having said that, I have a cowboy buddy who has worked up some very accurate 45/70 loads using Unique.

[35remington]

Duplicating the low extreme spreads of blackpowder, as I said, is quite simple. My #1 has a pretty short throat; all that is needed is a heavy bullet, seated deeply, and a powder charge with good loading density using 4198, 5744, 4759 or some such. Dacron if necessary.

It is quite easy to duplicate blackpowder ES; simply duplicate the loading density, which is no great cross to bear. Don't bet that a suitably chambered .45-70 using smokeless loads will not match a blackpowder loaded gun at any range, with more velocity potential to boot.

I've heard the BP only shooters repeating the "low extreme spreads only with black" statement many times. Trouble is, it ain't true. If I can do it, anybody can.

A heavy bullet combined with restricted case capacity will produce low extreme spreads in velocity nearly every time if the handloader knows what he is doing and selects the right loading combinations.

The problem with the statement that BP is the only powder that produces low ES is that they tried smokeless in the usual super long throated BP rifle set up for blackpowder. Give me my preferences in chambering and a low ES smokeless gun is very much in the cards.

Which means, I guess, that BP guys can still claim their powder is dirtier by far. That I concede readily.

[Dale53]

I suggest, cheerfully - not intended to be mean spirited, that this is a pointless argument. I have personally had excellent results with both BP and smokeless in the venerable 45/70. It is certainly good fun to take one position or the other but if facts are what you want - either will do a FINE job with most of the old black powder cartridges.

I prefer traditional black (Swiss in my favorite) in my single shots and prefer smokeless in my Marlin lever action. It all depends on my use for the particular rifle and load.

I would have done some deer hunting with BPCR's but Ohio does not permit deer hunting with rifles (only with muzzle loaders). So, I have little experience with BPCR while hunting. I do my deer hunting with the revolver.

Dale53

[WBH]

Maybe the reason they don't allow "white" powder in the BPCR matches is because they are BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE RIFLE matches.

Personally my BPCR's shoot only BP, I like to think I know how to treat a lady that is almost 135 years old. I do have a chicken load that shoots well with 5744 in a repro gun. But that's all. I just like using what was intended for them.

That white powder is just a fad anyway.

[JesterGrin_1]

Well there you have it from both sides of the coin. You can attain fine accuracy from Smokeless or Black Powder. It just depends on what you are used to or are willing to work on to gain the best potential accuracy from the weapon that you are using. Some like and tend to stick to Black Powder as they have worked very hard to get a load that works well for what they are doing. And will continue to tweak the loads all of the time. Mainly this is due to BPCR shooting as most require the use of Black Powder with no smokeless loads allowed. Some will allow Duplex loads but most will not due to safety reasons as they may state. As they do try and replicate how and what the rifle used back when they were originally designed.

Now if you are not heavy into BPCR and just use the rifle for recreation as well as hunting and some target to make sure it goes where you aim it. I feel smokeless would be the way to go if you are willing to find the correct load and loading sequence needed to attain the accuracy that you desire from your weapon. And if so 45 2.1 really would be the person to talk this over with from what I have heard from others on the forum.

As for myself I have a Cimarron Quigley Sharps in 45-70. It is a fine looking rifle both in fit and finish and very accurate. Well up to 600 meters as I have not done much shooting further than that. Only a few times out to 1000 meters. And I use Black Powder as that is what was allowed. But when I have time I will be sure to hit up 45 2.1 to get some information on the best way to go smokeless as I will mostly use the rifle for hunting or recreational use. As the Range is just way to far to drive. A 200 mile round trip to a range is a bit much lol.

[SharpsShooter]

I suggest, cheerfully - not intended to be mean spirited, that this is a pointless argument. I have personally had excellent results with both BP and smokeless in the venerable 45/70. It is certainly good fun to take one position or the other but if facts are what you want - either will do a FINE job with most of the old black powder cartridges.

I prefer traditional black (Swiss in my favorite) in my single shots and prefer smokeless in my Marlin lever action. It all depends on my use for the particular rifle and load.

I would have done some deer hunting with BPCR's but Ohio does not permit deer hunting with rifles (only with muzzle loaders). So, I have little experience with BPCR while hunting. I do my deer hunting with the revolver.

Dale53


I feed mine in the exact same way except I use Goex Cartridge. I have hunted with BPCR during regular rifle season for whitetails and will continue to do so. (works dandy) The smokeless loads I have worked up over the years will shoot with the black with equal accuracy. It all comes down to what you plan to use the rifle for in the first place.


SS

[sabre85rdj]

I don't mean to highjack the threat but my question is in the same vane as the original question. I've been shooting an Armi and a Pedersoli Sharps in a 45-70 caliber. I shoot with my daughter at the Quigley so I've stayed with smokeless powder just for convenience sake. My load uses 22.3gr of 5744, a cardboard wad over the powder and corn meal to fill the remaining volume under a 535gr postel lead bullet. The round is very accurate and consistent in both rifles. Velocity tops out at 1200 ft/sec +/- 12 ft/sec. At 100 yds, 5 shot groups are 1/2-3/4 inch. Long range performance is good too...on a good day it can put 8 shots on a target within 12 inches at 530 yds. So what's the problem you ask? Well, I got a super deal on a Shiloh Sharps #3 Sporter and it doesn't like the load at all. At 100 yds, groups are 3-4 inches. I'm pretty much at the minimum recommended load for 5744 powder so I think my only option is to go up in powder charge or switch powders. So I was wondering if anyone has a similar experience or a recommended starting point?

[country gent]

I will start of by saying that every rifle is a rifle unto its own, each has its likes and dislikes. Chambers can abd do make a big diffrence in how loads perform. My CPA and both C Sharps have the lead off the case mouth no throats to speak of, About 1/3 of the front friving band is all that can be out of the case. The pendersoli has a little throat between case mouth and leade. All do well with traditional Black powder, I have used goex, goex cartridge, swiss and Olde ensford in them. Accuracy is very good and one of the tricks is finding the powder compression you powder becomes effient at and the rifle likes. I have tried some of the subs and found them harder to clean than BP and touchier to get where you want to be velocity and pressure wise. I havent done much with actual smokless loads. When loading small charges of powder care does need to be taken to gaurd against double charging a case. Another issue is air space in the case ad wads fillers. There is no Double charging a 45-70 case with somewheres around 65 grns of 2 f Black powder as it needs to e compressed some to get the overall length. I have friends that use smokless duplication loads with good results. They use the same or similar bullet to what I am using over BP. Cleaning Black Powder isnt as bad or hard as it sounds. My rifles get cleaned between stages with widex vinegar or 20-1 water / Ballistol. After the days shooting a good cleaning with the water ballistol, 10-15 strokes with a nylon brush then 3-4 patches on a jag. The last patch is normally still white. Leading is a diffrent matter and if you lead up a 34" barrel you have a big chore ahead of you. I use bullets cast from 20-1 lead tin. With black powder these seal the bore well. I may give 16-1 or even 12-1 a try in the future. Personally I like putting these rifles thru thier paces as originally as possible.

[Chill Wills]

So what's the problem you ask? Well, I got a super deal on a Shiloh Sharps #3 Sporter and it doesn't like the load at all. At 100 yds, groups are 3-4 inches. I'm pretty much at the minimum recommended load for 5744 powder so I think my only option is to go up in powder charge or switch powders. So I was wondering if anyone has a similar experience or a recommended starting point?

Some ideas to try are changing the bullet seating depth. Pedersoli chambers have some cylinder or throat or freebore and your new Shiloh likely does not. They are on the snug side. Also just change powder or charge slightly to see if that will agree better with the timed exit of the bullet from the barrel.

[omgb]

How does one hijack a 9 year old thread? My Pedersoli with that bullet likes 27 grains of 5744 with a large rifle primer and the bullet just touching the rifling. With bp it likes 5 grains of RL7 under 65 grns by volume of bp. I compress .025" with a compression die. I cover the charge with a .030 walters wad and load the bullet sized .459 lubed with SPG, just touching the rifling

[Don McDowell]

I don't mean to highjack the threat but my question is in the same vane as the original question. I've been shooting an Armi and a Pedersoli Sharps in a 45-70 caliber. I shoot with my daughter at the Quigley so I've stayed with smokeless powder just for convenience sake. My load uses 22.3gr of 5744, a cardboard wad over the powder and corn meal to fill the remaining volume under a 535gr postel lead bullet. The round is very accurate and consistent in both rifles. Velocity tops out at 1200 ft/sec +/- 12 ft/sec. At 100 yds, 5 shot groups are 1/2-3/4 inch. Long range performance is good too...on a good day it can put 8 shots on a target within 12 inches at 530 yds. So what's the problem you ask? Well, I got a super deal on a Shiloh Sharps #3 Sporter and it doesn't like the load at all. At 100 yds, groups are 3-4 inches. I'm pretty much at the minimum recommended load for 5744 powder so I think my only option is to go up in powder charge or switch powders. So I was wondering if anyone has a similar experience or a recommended starting point?
Is the Shiloh a new or used rifle? If used is the crown good and are you sure nobody was pricking around in that chamber with a throating reamer etc.
If the barrel and chamber are good, first thing would be do some lead mining and get the bore cleaned out of any scrap lead.
Then start with 24 gr. of 5744 leave the toilet paper, breakfast cereal etc for their intended purposes, just the powder under a .458 postel seated to the driving band with just enough crimp to take the flare out of the case mouth.

[Toymaker]

I'm trying to develop a smokeless and black powder load for my Pedersoli 1885 High Wall in 38-55 with a 1:12 twist but don't have them yet. Normally I shoot a Pedersoli Creedmoor #2 Rolling Block in 45-70. My "fun" thing to do is shoot long ranges off-hand. I have accuracy loads in 4759, 5744 and Goex FFg under a Lyman 405 grain or Hoch 535 grain bullet. Remembering that every rifle is unto itself the biggest difference for me has been velocity. With black powder getting up to 1,250 fps ± is about maximum. With smokeless I can go several hundred fps higher.
Sights is another issue. I use a Vernier rear and post front, no scopes on these rifles. I suspect that if I could mount my Unertl on this rifle I could make these 5-shots in one hole at 100 yards and they'd stay tight for some distance. But they do the work and the BP load is slower and just as good, but not better.
172216 172217 I have my fun squeezing all the accuracy out of a rifle and load that I can and then have fun shooting it. :razz:

[MT Chambers]

I just can't get past the idea that a full case of BP will be more consistent then 1/4 case full of smokeless.

[M-Tecs]

BP has not been competitive verse smokeless powder for a very long time. If the rules allowed smokeless very few of the BPCR shooters would be using BP today.

[country gent]

The black powder verse smokless is a debate that has gone on along time. Alot of clubs do allow "smokeless duplication" loads at a specified veliocity, ussually around 1200 fps. Both of the local clubs that put on shilouette matches here specify rifles allowed and the 1200 fps velocity. Several things come into play here. One is a load that dosnt stay super sonic all the way to the target may be affected by the transition to sub sonic destroying accuracy. Starting and staying sub sonic seems to provide better ballistics over distances since velocity loss isnt near as fast. I dont see where the smokless duplication loads shoot that much better than the Black Powder loads do here. One other thing is with the smokless duplication loads bullet lubes are just that to prevent relieve leading. With the lack Powder lubes the bullet lube not only relieves leading but needs to help keep the powder fouling soft. WHile a great debate and alot of time has been spent argueing it, I see the same group at every match trading honors bot so much smokless or black but the shooters. A good shooter is a good shooter and they perform well.

[MT Chambers]

BP has not been competitive verse smokeless powder for a very long time. If the rules allowed smokeless very few of the BPCR shooters would be using BP today.
Are we talking about old BP calibers? Like 45/70? What about 45/110 or 50/90? Sounds inaccurate and dangerous.

[M-Tecs]

Smokeless in those cartridges is both very safe and accurate. On good days I can almost equal accuracy with BP but humidity changes effects BP fouling much more so some days it's not even close.

[Don McDowell]

Are we talking about old BP calibers? Like 45/70? What about 45/110 or 50/90? Sounds inaccurate and dangerous.
The title of the thread is "45-70 bp vs. smokeless" germain conversation is about the 45-70 cartridge.
But you are correct in that the longer cases not so well suited for smokeless powder and that undoubtedly contributed to their going obsolete over a century ago.

[dubber123]

Are we talking about old BP calibers? Like 45/70? What about 45/110 or 50/90? Sounds inaccurate and dangerous.

I have had no issues loading 50-90 with smokeless. Super clean burning and powerful. 560 grain paper patch at over 1,800 fps from a 24" barrel, at just under max Trapdoor pressures. I do like to use polyfill to keep the powder to the rear.

[sabre85rdj]

I appreciate the input. In answer to Don's questions, the rifle is brand new. The previous owner bought on a whim from the factory store inventory and then found out his shoulder couldn't take the beating of the .45-70. It's a beauty, I couldn't pass up. I guess, my real question is what's the likelihood the sweet spot is below my starting point of 22.3gr? I'm a bit concerned that I'm already a little below the recommended starting point in my Lyman catalog and going lower may not be too healthy for me or my new pretty rifle. I guess I'll just start working my way up in 2-3 gr increments to see if it settles down with 5744. Ideally, I need a load that will work well in both the Pedersoli and Shiloh so I can share ammo with my daughter. If I have to, I'll have separate loads for each rifle...it would just be more convenient. If anyone is shooting smokeless in a Shiloh #3 Sporter with a 30 inch heavy barrel and has a pet load where I could start if my 5744 doesn't work out, I'd appreciate any suggestions.

[Don McDowell]

You likely won't find a load that will work between the Pedersoli and the Shilo. Shilo's chambers are a good bit tighter than the Pedersoli, and they will shoot the best with .458 diameter bullets. To seat a bullet without going to the driving band you'll most likely need a tapered bullet for the Shiloh.
Never soiled the bore of my #3 with smokeless, always loaded 2f bp, or the defunct Cartridge powder.

[semtav]

BP has not been competitive verse smokeless powder for a very long time. If the rules allowed smokeless very few of the BPCR shooters would be using BP today.

Where did you get that info? I don't know what the top two shooters were using this year, but the 3rd 4th and 5th place shooters at this years Montana 1000 were shooting black. And if memory serves me correctly, more people have won it with black than smokeless.

[omgb]

Here we are 9 years later still arguing over whose girlfriend is prettier
Reece Talley aka omgb

[M-Tecs]

Where did you get that info? I don't know what the top two shooters were using this year, but the 3rd 4th and 5th place shooters at this years Montana 1000 were shooting black. And if memory serves me correctly, more people have won it with black than smokeless.

That is an easy one. With BPCR fouling control and wind reading wins or loses the match. Overall the accuracy requirements are not that stringent compared to cast bullet benchrest. Looking at were accuracy is king if BP was truly a superior accuracy powder it would be widely used in cast bullet benchrest matches. It has zero following for that application.

Specifically for BCPR smokeless is not allowed for regional or national matches. http://bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/NRA_rules_for_BPCR.htm

(d) Cartridges will be of the American black powder era, originally black powder loaded, manufactured prior to 1896, and originally chambered in American-manufactured rifles, taking into account normal variations in types of brass and primers, as well as bore sizes, rifling styles, twist and chamber dimensions. Cartridges must be loaded with black powder or Pyrodex only. No smokeless powder in any quantity may be used. Match officials, at their discretion, may select one or more loaded cartridges at random, pull bullet, and check contents. Competitors will furnish their own ammunition.
(e) Cast or swaged lead or lead alloy projectiles only; no jacketed or gas checked bullets. Paper patching permitted. Breech seating is permitted but no additional time will be allowed.

Yes, I am aware that some local matches allow duplex and smokeless but this makes direct accuracy comparisons difficult since the top shooters will be normally using what they use for regionals or nationals. Why develop a good smokeless or duplex load if you can't use it at the regionals or nationals? I do know the BP shooters tend not to want to shoot with the smokeless shooters due to different firing cadence.

The C.W. Roland record fired in 1901 used duplex loads http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=1982&forum_id=65

I have always enjoyed this Pope story http://www.oldbike.eu/centurycolumbia/?page_id=431

The superb accuracy of these rifles, properly handled, is unchallenged. Pope guaranteed that any of his muzzle loading rifles, with the exception of the 25 caliber, would shoot into 2 inches at 200 yadrs, loaded from the muzzle. Groups made by Pope, the late C. W. Rowland, dean of the old-time rest shooters, Donaldson, Roberts and others, that show ten shots at 100 yadrs and even 200 yards going into one ragged hole, have often been published. Pope himself has one 200 yard target that shows 10 shots grouping within 5/8 of an inch, center to center! Though temperamental, the Pope muzzle-breach loading Schuetzen rifle, under proper conditions and in the hands of a rifleman willing to study and master the methods that must be used to get results, will yet outshoot up to 200 yards any other type of rifle in existence.

“Developing loads for those rifles was as big a job as any. I had tried American Wood Rifle Powder, it was one of the first smokeless powders, gray, unglazed, as I remember. It have me a group at 200 yards that was two inches wide and about three feet high. The barrel remained beautifully clean but the ignition was too uncertain for any accuracy at all. I abandoned it and went back to black powder. Finally, I got a bright idea and tried some of that American Wood Powder in the bottom of the case and the rest black. It worked splendidly and left the barrel clean. Multiple (two-powder) charges still give best results in the muzzle-loaders.

“After working that out and making myself a powder measure that would throw a double charge I began to use loads like that in matches. The two-powder feature of my measure was not visible and no one knew how I got such fine accuracy. I began to win consistently from then on.


Schuetzen Matches allow either BP or Smokeless. I have only attended a couple Schuetzen Matches, however, I witnessed zero BP use. Same for cast bullet benchrest.

When both smokeless and BP are allowed at the regional and national level I am unware of any circumstance that BP dominates the winners circles??????

[Don McDowell]

The Montana 1000, the Quigley and other gong matches allow both and the Black powder shooters seldom take a back seat to smokeless. At the various BPTR matches there are a lot of scores with high X counts even at 1000 yds. I would imagine some bp shooter that knows how to load good ammo could give the smokeless boys a good run shooting at the close distances and using bench rest as in those other matches mentioned.

[oldred]

JMHO but why even make a comparison and why would it matter? I know most shooters, or at least a lot, will honestly believe their choice is the best or that the old rounds should only be loaded with what they were back when black was all there was but why does it matter? The truth is that shooting the traditional black powder is a sport all it's own and for the most part folks choose to use this propellant because they love the BP sport for what it is and all it entails not that it offers a performance advantage or not. I disagree that most BP match shooters would switch to smokeless if it were allowed due to the same reasons they choose to shoot BP in the first place, it's just a different sport and a different kind of shooting so making the comparison based on the pros and cons of each powder type is classic apples and oranges.

Some folks find BP to be dirty, smelly and just too much trouble and it should be understandable why but on the flip side there are others, myself included, that just feel cheated without that cloud of smoke and sparks and even the smell and consider cleanup, fouling and such to not be a problem at all as it just goes with the sport. I personally go both ways and shoot both types of powder depending on the situation at the time but given just one choice of either it would be black for me in my old calibers but those that choose smokeless have their good reasons also, in the end it's all about having fun and there's plenty of room for that both ways!

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Here we are 9 years later still arguing over whose girlfriend is prettier
My girlfriend is very pretty, and BTW she is a black Italian!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/erics_rifle_target_1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/erics_rifle_target_1.jpg.html)

[rfd]

... . My load uses 22.3gr of 5744, a cardboard wad over the powder and corn meal to fill the remaining volume under a 535gr postel lead bullet. ...

there is no need for wads or fillers with aa5744 smokeless, as noted by the powder's manufacturer. in fact, the quigley match now disallows any sort of filler/wad with double base powders (i.e. - aa5744) as it's felt that has, or can, or will, contribute to human harm.

[oldracer]

A couple years ago a shooter at our South Bay Rod and Gun Club range in San Diego had a brand new Shiloh Sharps and was trying to get it sighted in at 50 yards with commercial smokless 45-70 loads and they were a monster! After 6 or 8 shots he was flinching so bad he could not hit the side of the backing mountain! So I loaned him several black powder loads and he was amazed at how much easier they were on his shoulder and he got on target. I told him that he would either have to spend $$$$$ to buy them or get some loading equipment and do his own which is a fun thing to do. He gave me all his commercial ammo, about 8 boxes total so I gave him another 20 loads and he was really happy. I sold all the ammo and made quite a bit of $$$.

[oldred]

He gave me all his commercial ammo, about 8 boxes total so I gave him another 20 loads and he was really happy.


Maybe a bit off topic but other than maybe one box or so of commercial ammo to hunt with I simply cannot understand folks paying the absolutely absurd prices for loaded 45/70 ammo, for the price of eight boxes of that stuff a person could buy a loader, a box of bullets, primers and a couple of pounds of powder! In fact last year at the LGS while buying a pound of Varget I noticed that ONE box of twenty Remington 45/70 rounds cost nearly twice as much as the one pound jug of Varget, to make matters worse taht box of ammo was actually cheaper than I saw it online and it was staying sold out even at that price!

$2.00 to $3.00 plus for each round and it's staying sold out, or at least it was at the time, I just don't get it.

[rfd]

makes good sense to reload, and loading with black powder is both cheap and too easy. no worries about the powder level, it's always full up and typically slightly compressed. using fire formed brass, no neck tension concerns cause there ain't any. no dies required, but a compression die is good to have, along with maybe a straight wall neck expansion die for new and not yet fire formed brass. don't need wads but good to have with a cheap punch and milk cartons and newsprint paper. all my centerfire rifles are back powder, the only way for me to go.

[oldred]

You forgot to mention that black powder is a heck of a lot more fun too!!!!!!!!

[M-Tecs]

Any advantages of shooting black powder in a modern gun, other than the smoke and fun factor? Does the BP work better at long range?



The OP question was specifically about advantages of black powder in a modern gun and if BP work better at long range?

[rfd]

The OP question was specifically about advantages of black powder in a modern gun and if BP work better at long range?

i dunno about any "long range advantages", whatever that ambiguous statement means, but i've already posted why i prefer reloading black over white.

[rfd]

You forgot to mention that black powder is a heck of a lot more fun too!!!!!!!!

dang, yer right! THAT is THE most important point of all, bare none!!!

[M-Tecs]

For the folks that want to purchase factory ammo lots here at realistic prices http://ammoseek.com/ammo/45-70

Like most I find BP high on the fun factor. The last couple of years I have averaged about 20 pounds of BP per year and I have been shooting BP since 1972.

If I am looking for the ultimate in accuracy BP is not my first choice. I am not saying BP is not accurate but I am saying if my life depended on it or I have a large wager on it it's smokeless every time.

When BP starts winning at the cast bullet benchrest matches I will rethink that position.

[Rifle 57]

For the folks that want to purchase factory ammo lots here at realistic prices http://ammoseek.com/ammo/45-70

Like most I find BP high on the fun factor. The last couple of years I have averaged about 20 pounds of BP per year and I have been shooting BP since 1972.

If I am looking for the ultimate in accuracy BP is not my first choice. I am not saying BP is not accurate but I am saying if my life depended on it or I have a large wager on it it's smokeless every time.

When BP starts winning at the cast bullet benchrest matches I will rethink that position.
Well said very good post M-Tecs

[Don McDowell]

There were a number of folks that shot 100's with multiple x count at 200 yd prone match at this years BPTR championship. And several shot above 95 with multiple x count at 300 and 600. All shot from prone off xsticks or wrist rests. There is no way smokeless would/could do any better.

[M-Tecs]

Isn't the 200 yd prone BPTR target the standard SR target? If it is the x-ring is 3" and the 10 ring is 7". A clean is only 3 1/2 MOA. Both BP and smokeless are capable of way better accuracy than what's required to shoot a clean.

To compare head to head accuracy actual groups tell a better tale.

[semtav]

M-Tecs
you mentioned this before. What matches are you specifically referring to ? And what
calibers. What ranges. Are you saying that to include the 8,9,1000 yd matches using the 40 thru 50 cal buffalo rifles or the 200 yd matches using the 25 thru 32 cal guns?

[Tnfalconer]

I love when people comment that black powder is easier to use and gives the same accuracy. That is almost laughable! The truth of it is the BP is very inconsistent unless special attention is put towards cartridges loaded with it. Case capacity, compression, compaction, bullet seating depth, overall length and bullet contact are all still just as important with black powder as they are with smokeless. The difference I have seen personally is consistency. Using the same techniques as far as loading and prep, smokeless powder is absolutely more consistent. For those that don't know, you can have the best shooting round in the world and if you can't consistently load for the same results it's worthless. Smokeless gives the consistency that is easily controlled and repeated. Don't get me wrong, I love BP and it has it's place for certain and will turn in good results for things in the manner of Buffalo matches where they are the preferred nostalgic material. In a head to head competition, BP is inferior. Sorry guys, but if black was more consistent it would be the preferred powder for benchrest and it isn't. Having competed in black powder, benchrest, buffalo and tactical matches for a couple decades, I guess I have a different perspective. I am currently building a rifle for buffalo matches and it will be smokeless, sorry traditionalists. I am more interested in winning the match than I am standing in a cloud of BP smoke.

[semtav]

We need to start some 1000 yard postal matches. Show us your best 1000 yard group. I'm sure the good BP shooters like Altenburg, Mulhern, Wasserburger etc will still come out on top.

[Tnfalconer]

The current pending world record is 2.68" at 1k yards. I have personally shot 6" in competition and my personal best is 5.25" not in competitions. (6.5-284, 142grn sierra matchking at 3,000 fps with IMR powder). Good luck, I would love to participate!

[M-Tecs]

The current pending world record is 2.68" at 1k yards.

That is a 10 shot record http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/04/best-10-shot-1000-yard-group-in-history-be-amazed/

The 5 shot records are significantly smaller http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2007/07/sarver-shoots-1403-group-at-1000-yards/ I can't find it but I believe the currently recorded is about half this.

[M-Tecs]

M-Tecs
you mentioned this before. What matches are you specifically referring to ? And what
calibers. What ranges. Are you saying that to include the 8,9,1000 yd matches using the 40 thru 50 cal buffalo rifles or the 200 yd matches using the 25 thru 32 cal guns?

For BPTR I believe the minimum caliber is 38 and BP only at the Nationals:
http://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/Programs/2016-silhouette-championship-1.pdf
Cartridges will conform to Rule 3.17: Ammunition used in all the matches must be straight black or Pyrodex, no smokeless in any quantity.
http://competitions.nra.org/championship-tournament/black-powder-target-rifle.aspx

Much is made of the low standard deviations that BP gives. Low SD is needed for 1,000 yard accuracy and it's a great thing but fouling control with BP has always been my biggest mimesis. While jacketed bullets came in at the end of the BP era I have never fired BP with a jacketed bullet so I can't comment on fouling/accuracy potentials .

What I can comment on is 40 years of shooting/building BPCR type rifles for use out to 1,000 yards with smokeless/jacket, smokeless/cast and BP/cast. My current 45/70 BPCR will hold 1/2 MOA at 300 yards with jacketed and smokeless consistently. I would be more than willing to place significant wagers on holding 5/8" MOA (scoped) under any type of decent conditions. With cast and smokeless groups tend to open to 1 to 1 1/4" MOA with less consistency and more temperature sensitivity. With BP and cast I would NOT bet that I can hold 1 1/2" MOA at 300 yards. Some days yes but lots of days at a different temperature and humidity no, but, it will still shoot a clean on the SR target if I do my part. By the time you get to a 1,000 yard you need to hold 2" MOA to shoot a clean on the LR target. Wind reading, vision and hold wins or loses the LR events with any gun or load holding 2" MOA or better.

Comparing matches that are not particularly challenging to overall accuracy requirements tells us very little. Same for NRA Highpower across the course matches. The SR target is the service rifle target used for 200 yard standing and 200 yard setting rapid fire and in BPTR http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/Blkpwdr/bp-book.pdf

I have never fired a 200 clean standing but I have fired numerous 10 shot strings standing into the SR target. Rapid fire seating I lost count of the 200 cleans fired with either M14's or AR's. Hold, sight picture and wind reading determine the winners from the losers. An M1 Garand has more than enough accuracy potential to win the NRA HP nationals but were accuracy is the sole requirement M1's are not competitive. If they were we would see them at benchrest matches. The same for BP.

BP is allowed for cast bullet benchrest so that would be a direct accuracy comparison but BP sees as much usage for cast bullet brenchrest as the M1. I wonder why that is?

Same for the target shooters of the early 1900's switching to duplex than smokeless. If BP was truly the most accurate I wonder why they switched?

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy BP greatly but too drink the "BP is more accurate/equally as accurate" Kool-Aid I will need HARD evidence that I have not seen, read or heard of.

So back to the OP's
Compare and contrast black powder and smokless in a modern rifle like the Thompson Centers. (sounds like an English assignment for school)

I am toying with the idea of a 45-70 in one of the Thompson Center rifles. I have a friend that shoots a lot of BPRC. Any advantages of shooting black powder in a modern gun, other than the smoke and fun factor? Does the BP work better at long range?

Am I crazy?

Thanks,

Crabo

No. :popcorn:

[Don McDowell]

A 45-70 will shoot black just as well if not better than smokeless.

[rfd]

having done both over the last 5+ decades, i dunno whether black or white is best for any form of shooting accuracy. i find that loading bp for both the 45-70 and 40-65 is just easier than loading smokeless for those cartridges, and with results that are far better than my shooting abilities. bp will afford lowered pressures and there are no neck tension concerns with fire formed brass. weighing the charge and powder/wad compression is too easy and quite consistent. the brass isn't work hardened to any noticeable degree since no brass forming/expanding/seating dies are required. i just prefer everything about loading, shooting and maintaining black cartridges and rifles. doesn't mean it's better than white, though. it's all good, to each their own - enjoy what makes ya most happy.

[oldred]

it's all good, to each their own - enjoy what makes ya most happy.


Right on!!

This is what I have been saying all along and I just don't understand why some folks get all bent out of shape when someone starts talking smokeless loads in some of the older calibers. I can certainly understand warning someone about using modern smokeless powders in old original firearms built from questionable steel made before the advent of stronger steel making methods or one of the older firearms of a weaker design. This is entirely different than being told we shouldn't be loading smokeless in certain calibers just because they originally were loaded with Black because that's all that was available, never mind that others have been doing it for years with no problems and that some of those old Buffalo cartridges really work great with smokeless! My favorite round is the 45-90 and I load both smokeless and black for this round, still I have had people tell me that if I want to shoot smokeless I SHOULD SELL the rifle and shoot something else of that if I wanted smokeless in the 45-90 I should have gotten a 458 magnum in the first place! I have several times been told I shouldn't be loading smokeless in that "Big" case but never mind all the published smokeless loading data for not only that case but others even bigger, good gosh even Hodgdon lists smokeless loads for absurdly huge 45-120 case! I get it, some folks want to be traditionalists and shoot their rifles like it was done "back in the day" and I can understand why they enjoy that but what I can't understand is the insistence that everyone else do as they do. What I shoot in my rifle is my business and while it's just fine to ask why I choose what I do, and to discuss the pros and cons of such, being told I shouldn't do that because the cartridge was designed for "black powder", as if that somehow means nothing else will work, or some other equally silly reason is just nonsense. Just because a cartridge was designed back when black was all that was available in no way means that it can't or wont t work just as well and possibly even better with more modern propellants.

[rfd]

right on the money, oldred - my sentiments exactly. aside from the obvious safety issues concerning firearms not meant for modern smokeless, the rest is totally subjective and up to each of us to decide what we shoot, and what and how we load cartridges. this can easily carry on over to muzzleloaders as well, with regards to inlines and trad sidelocks, as well as bp versus subs. this is all sport/hobby stuff that's s'posed to be, umm ... FUN. keep it that way, and please don't scold those who aren't doing it "your way".

[country gent]

At the local matches here both BP and smokless duplication loads are allowed and used with good results. Unless you are shooting a match that specifys powder type then the choice is yours as far as Im concerned.There is alot of good natured friendly ribbing back and forth between the shooters using black powder and smokless, but its just that good natured teasing back and forth. The actuall choice is the shooters unless match rules specified other wise. As said above this discipline is meant to be fun and enjoyable. Im more concerned with the comaraderie and friends than what they are shooting powder wise. Like I said we do banter back and forth and in good nature but the match winners seem to change back and forth between BP and smokless shooters. Its more the nut behind the trigger than the powder type. Last match 2 of the 3 places were shooters firing BP and the match before was all smokless shooters. Like I said its the shooters even with a good load of either powder a mistake reading wind or wrong elevation setting or just an off day affects more than the type of powder does.

[rfd]

more good stuff, country gent, i'm right with ya, sir! :drinks: