Ammo Shortage and The Free Market

[jcwit]

Got the below in an E-Mail, sorta says it all![smilie=b:



COULD BE, WE'RE DESTROYING OUR OWN SPORT

Mike Haas

(Originally posted Wednesday, March 13, 2013)
Had lunch today with a rangemaster of a local gun range. Great place, sells ammo, friendly, nice premises. No surprises that the range had been extremely busy for months, of that there is no doubt. It had been busier and busier, eventually folks had to start to waiting to get a bench on the weekend and turned into waiting during the week!

They had lots of trouble getting ammo and what they could get, they only sold to those who were shooting that day. Until recently...

The waiting stopped. Suddencly benches were available on the week. Then the weekend. What? "Had the new gun buyer market been saturated?" I asked. "No," he replied, "people can't find ammo."

He then tells me he knows of lots of panic buying going on. He knows one fellow that stocked his garage with 30,000 rounds of .223! That's probably a couple hundred average shooters that can't get ammo now. It creates a sense of panic and spreads like wildfire. He also said a lot of local sellers are jacking prices into orbit. Lots of gouging going on.

I think there are parties that want the blame to go to government, that they sre sucking up all the production. But from what I see with my own eyes and ears, WE ARE DOING THIS TO OURSELVES. We are now panic buying to the point that it is preventing many from shooting.

Now, I've finally been getting low on my favorite AR bullet, the 69 gr. Sierra HPBT Match (1380). They must be favorites for lots of folks because I haven't been able to find 'em for months. On a whim, checked Midway USA and yep, out of stock. But that's a great site and it allowed me to search for all available .22 rifle bullets by all manufacturers.

There were about 12 or 15 bullets, ranging from 40 to 80 grain, various manufacturers. I was able to order 500 (a normal quantity for me) 69 gr. HPBT Match by *NOSLER* (didn't know they made one, very curious to see how they compare.) So my horizons will be expanded - I'm not too old to handle that.

But I'm stuck with this feeling that someone, somewhere, has my 500 Sierra bullets and yours too. And yours and yours and yours... and he's probably going to regret that huge purchase (at probably way too much money) and never shoot our bullets.

We shouldn't do that to our sport, to each other or to ourselves. Again.

[uscra112]

The club I belong to runs about a dozen IDPA and Cowboy matches every summer. I've never actually asked, but I'll bet it's a significant part of the club cash flow. With so little ammo, entries will be down, and cash flow will be down, I'd expect.

I've had several bricks of .22 plinking ammo in my closet since the Clinton administration. I'm letting it go now. The kids and even the grandkids are no longer in need of an ammo subsidy from me, and all I shoot now is high grade target ammo, of which I have enough for a 3-4 years if I'm careful. It's almost embarrassing to be selling a brick for $50 with a sticker on it that says $10.95, but the market is the market. (As of last night I'm still seeing real junk like Thunderbolt going on GB for $90 to $110 a brick !)

[phil3333]

how many anti free market threads are you gonna start,

(But I'm stuck with this feeling that someone, somewhere, has my 500 Sierra bullets and yours too. And yours and yours and yours... and he's probably going to regret that huge purchase (at probably way too much money) and never shoot our bullets).

I dont understand that kind of logic kind of sounds like the occupy wall street mentality
so if I have three cars is that two to many after all they really belong to those who don't
have any, you know fairness and all,or what if I have 1-2 years supply of food does that
rightfully belong to those who have less

[btroj]

So you would support Obama in setting limits on ammo purchases?

A free market is just that, free. People can do as they chose. Anything less isn't free, is it?


If you want government controls then say so, don't beat around the bush.

[Boyscout]

I bought a little extra of everything immediately after the election. I knew it wouldn't be long before the Democrats would push for massive gun control, all they needed was an event. What could have be better than Sandy Hook? The tears were stored in buckets, the speeches and laws were written for the right time long before Adam Lanza did his evil act. Obama, Biden and Holder didn't cry for Brian Terry and 530+ dead Mexicans killed with the guns the Administration assisted the Drug Cartels in buying. A crime with far more deadly consequences than Sandy Hook. I will continue to buy in modest amounts until I have enough or the Libs cut it off all together.

[geargnasher]

"YOUR" 500 bullets? I think they belong to the people who bought them up. To say anything else is to be a lot of things I won't mention.

Gear

[btroj]

Need some 69 Sierras? I have a box. You can't afford them.

[jcwit]

how many anti free market threads are you gonna start,

(But I'm stuck with this feeling that someone, somewhere, has my 500 Sierra bullets and yours too. And yours and yours and yours... and he's probably going to regret that huge purchase (at probably way too much money) and never shoot our bullets).

I dont understand that kind of logic kind of sounds like the occupy wall street mentality
so if I have three cars is that two to many after all they really belong to those who don't
have any, you know fairness and all,or what if I have 1-2 years supply of food does that
rightfully belong to those who have less

Like I stated at the start, I received this in an E-Mail, thought some here might be interested in the thoughts from the owner and founder of AmmoGuide forum and web site.

http://ammoguide.com/

You do not like the writing of the mans ideas, fine with me, I could care less.

As far as the "Free Market" we had a "Free Market" prior to Sandy Nook.

Today we have a market with make believe dealers going to gun shows and selling on gun broker who's only wholesale source of inventory is retail stores. They are not only a bane to our sport but a joke as well.

Mayhap they should apply for a retail and sales tax license and attempt to do an honest business.
More than likely they are working under the table.

To imply I am of the same persuasion as the occupy wall street mentality is just ridiculous.

[TES]

To those that have congrats and to those that don't I hope there is a next time for you.

[btroj]

You Imply that having people trying to make a quick buck isn't a free market. Isn't that what a free market is about?

Whining that you can't find what you want and being angry at "hoarders" and "gougers" is EXACTLY what occupy is about. I want what you have and I don't want to pay for it, or at least not as much as you want.

I pose this question, what do YOU propose be done? You don't like capitalism, what is YOUR solution?

[historicfirearms]

Progressives would say we should spread the wealth around, so we can all have our fair share.

[phil3333]

Got the below in an E-Mail, sorta says it all!

that implies agreement with the email does it not,if you agree with that steaming
pile then yes, you would fit right in with the occupy crowd

[geargnasher]

That's not progress, that's Marxist communism.

Either you believe in a free market, or you don't. There's no grey area.

Gear

[jcwit]

how many anti free market threads are you gonna start,

I have no idea at this time, but that is not for you to decide is it?

[btroj]

Exactly Gear. There is free market, there is not free market. Anything less than free isn't free, is it?

I am waiting to hear jcwit's ultimate solution. I am sure it will be enlightening.

[historicfirearms]

Just a little word play on Obummers famous quotes. Please don't mistake me for a progressive.

[jcwit]

I am waiting to hear jcwit's ultimate solution.

Have a solution, haven't got one. But I do know, we have met the enemy and it is us.

[dragon813gt]

If you didn't pay for an item and it's not in your possession it's not yours. This also isn't the first, or last, that people will make money by doing some not so right things. The Robber Barons made billions by doing some heinous things.

Here is how the free market works. You pay what you're willing to pay for an item. If it's to high you don't buy it. It's that simple. People are caught up in a panic which is making supply short. But if people settled down and didn't pay the high prices then the market would settle. It's really basic supply and demand economics.

I also find it amusing when people say that they got a great deal because the agreed upon selling price was less than the asking price. How come no one complains, like they do about gougers, that they just ripped someone off by paying to little? It works both ways so either be consistent or just stop.

[sparky45]

Holy Cow JC; I'll leave the wit part off, because that's only half right. Seems like you can't avoid controversy. When you post any more it's mostly a negative message, and I never got that feeling about you or your posts before. I hope you can turn yourself around and get back to posting in a positive manner, you're better than this.

[dmclark523]

I think we are all taking this a little to far. The market will come back down over time and all of this gouging will eventually sift out. Until then, the market is just
how it's going to be! That's the beauty of free market system!

Case in point, went to my local store the other day and witnessed a guy buying 2000 (20 boxes) of Hornady 55g FMJ-BT w/cannelure @ $23.99/box.
Did he buy up
pretty much the whole shelf? Yes.
Did he really need it all? probably not.
Did the guy checking him out look at him like he was a fool? You bet he did.

And he was a fool...but that is his unalienable right.

[btroj]

I don't see t that way. The enemy of a free market is placing limits on that freedom.

People want to hoard? Let em hoard. They will run out of money. I can wait.

I can't be gouged if I don't pay the price, can I?

Freedoms are either absolute or they aren't a freedom, are they?

[phil3333]

I hope the op is just trolling for grins & giggles,I hope....

[btroj]

Hard to say, isn't it?

[jcwit]

I don't see t that way. The enemy of a free market is placing limits on that freedom.

People want to hoard? Let em hoard. They will run out of money. I can wait.

I can't be gouged if I don't pay the price, can I?

Freedoms are either absolute or they aren't a freedom, are they?

In a way I agree, but and here is to me one of the biggest issues.

The Jr. Leagues, 4-H programs, Summer Camps Boy/Girl Scouts of otherwise are but in a huge bind for lack of funds to buy non-existent ammo.

And don't start about "Its all about the children". I don't buy into that either.

Do all of you who are all claiming its all about a "Free Market" contribute to any or all of the above mentioned programs, I do.

[jcwit]

I hope the op is just trolling for grins & giggles,I hope....

Not at all, stating what I think and see.

[TES]

I feel sorry for those baby bears

[Uncle R.]

Nice to see so many here speaking out - er, writing out - in favor of a free market. It's downright encouraging.
<
Uncle R.

[geargnasher]

Just a little word play on Obummers famous quotes. Please don't mistake me for a progressive.

I got it, no worries! I think bummer took the character of Wesley Mouch as a role model, even uses the same rhetoric. He must not have finished the book, though.

In a free market, sometimes you can't get what you want at a reasonable price because of a bunch of meanies. If something is in high demand and scarce long enough, somebody else intent on making a buck will dump some capital into producing more of it. Or just wait. It baffles me that experienced handloaders would get caught short this time around, it isn't like stuff wasn't available at fair prices for the past couple of years.

If you're a newbie who suddenly finds there's a shortage going on, stuff can be had, often at not-so-ridiculous prices, you just have to search a little harder. This too, shall pass, thanks to the nature of the free market.

Gear

[Heavy lead]

It's all supply/demand, the government caused a rise in demand, it's that simple, some of the demand was caused by people that had intentions of reselling, investing, new shooters, and people stocking up.
The resellers and investors do have a price they will part with the stockpile, that will come down IF and/or WHEN the supply rises, with that demand will go down at the same time, could be the resellers or investors will sell for at, slightly above, or slightly below what they bought for, OR they could rake it in, or it could get confinscated, or stolen if the SHTF.
Who knows, my best guess is that it will balance out, and they will eat it.
Regardless, if they do, it'll drive prices down even more, when that happens, hop on it, buy, buy, buy.
Until then, I'll shoot .223 sparingly, I've been able to get everything else needed and actually have picked up some very good deals on some bolt guns, a couple of 3 screw Supers and other things. Free market is free market, the idiots in DC had the total opposite effect on what they were trying to accomplish, if in fact that is what it was what they were trying to do.
As for the government buying ammunition stocks up, look for surplus sold when we get another administration in 3 1/2 years it's happened before.

[btroj]

I feel bad for those programs but I will not support restrictions on the markets to protect them.

Things happen. We can either get over it and move on or we can restrict freedoms. Which do you want?

Feeling bad for people and wanting to act on them is what got us into much of the sad state of affairs we are in. Life isn't fair.

We are guaranteed life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I think we would be better off if more people started pursuing instead of waiting for happiness to come to them.

Again, while I feel bad for groups, businesses, and individuals who are in a bind due to shortages I will never support limits on the free markets I so cherish.

[phil3333]

sigh,its a free country and I welcome all views even if I disagree,how much longer
we will be free who knows

[Love Life]

Seriously? How many fricking "EVIL GOUGER" "EVIL HOARDER" threads can we daggone start on this forum?

It is my firm belief that those crying about the gouging fall in the following categories:
A) True outrage coming from a belief that you should not profit off of others' shortages (these are good people and I respect them)
B) People who got caught with their pants down and are now under supplied
C) People who are mad that they can't buy in bulk and pimp it out for profit

Am I wrong? No. That is the way of things, but everybody gets on their high horse and acts a fool!!! Earlier in this craziness it was established that the people selling for high prices are not gouging. You can't gouge wants. It is their RIGHT to sell as they please. It is your RIGHT to call them douche nozzles.

It is amazing how many members have come to embrace socialism now that they can't get their piece of the pie. I'm talking about members I truly respected (Notice the tense).

Here is your answer. If you are out of ammo then suck it up and pay today's prices just to get you through. Then stock up when supply returns. If you end up with a surplus then you can sell it for serious cheese when the next shortage comes around.

You call it gouging. You call it hoarding. You call it "Ensuring everybody gets to shoot."

I call it socialism, communism, and the anti-America Capitalism.

That is all. Ya'll continue adding ingredients to this "I hate people who have stuff right now" cake you have been busy baking all day.

[uscra112]

I don't think the O.P. was trolling. He was pointing out a "knock-on" effect of the ammo shortage. As was I in an earlier post.

[btroj]

Well stated Love Life.

[jcwit]

I stated one of my major issues regarding this, the kids programs.

My other issue is the make believe business men with no license or sales tax number or tax license over turning the market.

They want to apply for all of the above and become the real thing, and purchase their stock as most any merchant does, more power to them, and charge what they wish.

The rest are nothing better than those selling counterfit merchandise and posing as real businessman.

[phil3333]

Seriously? How many fricking "EVIL GOUGER" "EVIL HOARDER" threads can we daggone start on this forum?

It is my firm belief that those crying about the gouging fall in the following categories:
A) True outrage coming from a belief that you should not profit off of others' shortages (these are good people and I respect them)
B) People who got caught with their pants down and are now under supplied
C) People who are mad that they can't buy in bulk and pimp it out for profit

Am I wrong? No. That is the way of things, but everybody gets on their high horse and acts a fool!!! Earlier in this craziness it was established that the people selling for high prices are not gouging. You can't gouge wants. It is their RIGHT to sell as they please. It is your RIGHT to call them douche nozzles.

It is amazing how many members have come to embrace socialism now that they can't get their piece of the pie. I'm talking about members I truly respected (Notice the tense).

Here is your answer. If you are out of ammo then suck it up and pay today's prices just to get you through. Then stock up when supply returns. If you end up with a surplus then you can sell it for serious cheese when the next shortage comes around.

You call it gouging. You call it hoarding. You call it "Ensuring everybody gets to shoot."

I call it socialism, communism, and the anti-America Capitalism.

That is all. Ya'll continue adding ingredients to this "I hate people who have stuff right now" cake you have been busy baking all day.

yes sir,that about sums it up,I cant stand the (it for the kids bs) trying to gain support by throwing that up makes me ill

[btroj]

So no private sales?

Who gets to decide what makes a business legitimate? If I sell a buddy a few K of primers am I a bad guy? What if I profit from it?

I recently traded a few bullets to a friend for some lead. Does that make me a bad guy? I am not a registered business or manufacturer and he isn't a registered scrap yard.

I just want to know the rules and limits so I am sure not to support an evil capitalist. Or at least not an unregistered one.

Heaven forbid a guy makes a few bucks on the side.

[jcwit]

Love Life, I guess I fit into (A).

Myself, I have no need for any more ammo and have not purchased ammo or reloading components to any extent for years. I have purchased a few bricks of high quality .22 target ammo, such as Eley or Lapua, but that is ammo of a different sort.

More than likely I have enough supplies to outlast me, hope mama makes some money off it.

[Love Life]

Who is momo?

[jcwit]

So no private sales?

Who gets to decide what makes a business legitimate? If I sell a buddy a few K of primers am I a bad guy? What if I profit from it?

I recently traded a few bullets to a friend for some lead. Does that make me a bad guy? I am not a registered business or manufacturer and he isn't a registered scrap yard.

I just want to know the rules and limits so I am sure not to support an evil capitalist. Or at least not an unregistered one.

Heaven forbid a guy makes a few bucks on the side.

If in fact you are doing it as a way to raise extra cash, then its obvious you are attempting to falsely operate an unlicensed business. A box here and there is of course an entirely different matter.

[offshore44]

One of my Engineering Professors, a man that I well respected, had this written in the upper right hand corner of his chalk board at all times: "Buy your straw hats in the winter time." To borrow another quote from another source; "Improvise, adapt, overcome."

The free market in the US is buggered up with restrictions and regulations enough as it is. I feel for the youth groups, but there is ammo available out there. If you can afford to, buy some and donate it. Sometimes charity to a good cause hurts a little more than other times. That's probably good for the soul.

[jcwit]

Who is momo?

You caught me in a spelling error, sorry

To answer directly, its my wife.

[btroj]

Is she planning to register as a business? Collect sales tax?

[jcwit]

Is she planning to register as a business? Collect sales tax?

She's already been informed as to what auctioneer to contact, which I have talked to regarding my estate.

Yup! He has all licensing, forms, and permits needed, even has the contacts to do the transfers of my collection of 200 + pieces.

Sorta know how to do this as I was executer of my parents estate, and we had our own business till we retired in 2000.

[Alvarez Kelly]

I bought a "bucket" of 1400 22lr rounds today for $69.95. I was glad to get it. Did I "need" it? No... but I "might" need it this summer, since I like to go plinking with my grandson. The price, although higher than I was paying a year ago, seemed OK in today's market.

Supply and demand... simple as that.

[jcwit]

I bought a "bucket" of 1400 22lr rounds today for $69.95. I was glad to get it. Did I "need" it? No... but I "might" need it this summer, since I like to go plinking with my grandson. The price, although higher than I was paying a year ago, seemed OK in today's market.

Supply and demand... simple as that.

I'd say that was a very good price, I would have grabbed it also, but because of my situtation it would have been donated, not saying at all that you should have donated it tho.

[Lead Fred]

Pssst its not my sport, its my way of life.

We the People are preparing for civil war, and the homeland brown shirts are playing catch up.

Why do you think the evil AR-15 assault rifles are being outlawed, while Homeland is buying 1000s of M16a2 personal defense rifles and 2 billion bullets?

[jcwit]

Pssst its not my sport, its my way of life.

We the People are preparing for civil war, and the homeland brown shirts are playing catch up.

Why do you think the evil AR-15 assault rifles are being outlawed, while Homeland is buying 1000s of M16a2 personal defense rifles and 2 billion bullets?

You are actually advocating a violent insurrection here in the U.S.?

You really wish to turn this country into another Syria?

You really need to study history and check out how Waco and Ruby Ridge turned out.

[geargnasher]

[dig, dig dig, dig dig dig] :popcorn:

Gear

[Love Life]

No violent insurrection for this guy. I lost all my stuff in that tragic boating accident last year that involved about 10 Cast Boolits members.

[onceabull]

Another amazing coincidence,Love Life, essentially the same thing happened to me when I was forced onto Duck Lake ,Montana,in a small boat ,while escaping from a band of Blood Indians that took offense to something I did/said while discussing proper behaviour with one of their Blackfoot cousins in downtown Browning Montana.. Wind came up ,boat flipped, but I was able to hang on till it grounded on the far shore..

[Uncle R.]

Dang - I lost all my stuff in a tragic boating accident too!
You guys must buy your boats at the same place I got mine!
<
Little did I realize at the time of purchase that it was an unlicensed boat dealer, selling counterfeit boats and operating without all the required government permits. If I had known those things I would never have purchased from such a shady character.
<
Uncle R.

[jlchucker]

I bought a little extra of everything immediately after the election. I knew it wouldn't be long before the Democrats would push for massive gun control, all they needed was an event. What could have be better than Sandy Hook? The tears were stored in buckets, the speeches and laws were written for the right time long before Adam Lanza did his evil act. Obama, Biden and Holder didn't cry for Brian Terry and 530+ dead Mexicans killed with the guns the Administration assisted the Drug Cartels in buying. A crime with far more deadly consequences than Sandy Hook. I will continue to buy in modest amounts until I have enough or the Libs cut it off all together.

Sometimes I wonder if some of the "events" aren't deliberately manufactured to promote the antigun agenda.

[Wis. Tom]

Buy like your life depends on it. If you have money, buy now, before this govt. outlaws everything we did, as a "free nation". I would rather "the children" be able to fight this war, with ammo, than with empty guns. Your children better get use to living with alot less, because that is what your govt. wants. The American dream is through, finished, dead. No more buying property through your lifetime and pass it on to your "children", no more owning your own business, working hard, and passing it on to your "children", no more working hard at the same place, for thirty years, and receiving a gold watch, and a pat on the back saying good job. Now, when you work, you pay taxes, when you buy, you pay taxes, when you sell, you pay taxes, when you die, you pay taxes, when your children get anything left after you die, they pay taxes, and that is after the govt. gets done carving up anything left, after paying for your "bills" to the govt., for your extended life bills on Medicare. If you got money, I can't think of much left to put your money into, that is better than ammo, and as you can tell, I am in the camp that believes that ammo prices are not going to fall off this cliff, and plunge, as some people keep saying. I think the only way that will happen is, this govt. quits, and goes home, and I don't see that happening any time soon. Remember, gun control, global warming, bigger govt., obamacare, estate tax, income tax, personal tax, gas tax, sales tax, alcohol tax, property tax, farm tax, small business tax, carbon tax, and more taxes you can print, it's all for the good of the "children". Life is so good... if you work for the govt. I am now done ranting, so back to the stop buying, for the good of the "children".

[jcwit]

Sometimes I wonder if some of the "events" aren't deliberately manufactured to promote the antigun agenda.

As terrible as it may sound/be, this has also crossed my mind as a possibility also.

[Moonman]

Global Warming, anyone think Al Gore may be at the root of rumors and the Ammo Shortage too?

[Blacksmith]

Got the below in an E-Mail, sorta says it all![smilie=b:



COULD BE, WE'RE DESTROYING OUR OWN SPORT

Mike Haas

(Originally posted Wednesday, March 13, 2013)
Had lunch today with a rangemaster of a local gun range. Great place, sells ammo, friendly, nice premises. No surprises that the range had been extremely busy for months, of that there is no doubt. It had been busier and busier, eventually folks had to start to waiting to get a bench on the weekend and turned into waiting during the week!

They had lots of trouble getting ammo and what they could get, they only sold to those who were shooting that day. Until recently...

The waiting stopped. Suddencly benches were available on the week. Then the weekend. What? "Had the new gun buyer market been saturated?" I asked. "No," he replied, "people can't find ammo."

He then tells me he knows of lots of panic buying going on. He knows one fellow that stocked his garage with 30,000 rounds of .223! That's probably a couple hundred average shooters that can't get ammo now. It creates a sense of panic and spreads like wildfire. He also said a lot of local sellers are jacking prices into orbit. Lots of gouging going on.

I think there are parties that want the blame to go to government, that they sre sucking up all the production. But from what I see with my own eyes and ears, WE ARE DOING THIS TO OURSELVES. We are now panic buying to the point that it is preventing many from shooting.

Now, I've finally been getting low on my favorite AR bullet, the 69 gr. Sierra HPBT Match (1380). They must be favorites for lots of folks because I haven't been able to find 'em for months. On a whim, checked Midway USA and yep, out of stock. But that's a great site and it allowed me to search for all available .22 rifle bullets by all manufacturers.

There were about 12 or 15 bullets, ranging from 40 to 80 grain, various manufacturers. I was able to order 500 (a normal quantity for me) 69 gr. HPBT Match by *NOSLER* (didn't know they made one, very curious to see how they compare.) So my horizons will be expanded - I'm not too old to handle that.

But I'm stuck with this feeling that someone, somewhere, has my 500 Sierra bullets and yours too. And yours and yours and yours... and he's probably going to regret that huge purchase (at probably way too much money) and never shoot our bullets.

We shouldn't do that to our sport, to each other or to ourselves. Again.

Possibly the email in the OP was caused by other factors than hoarding. Perhaps the gun range owner was one of those who bans reloads, bans cast boolits, and insists you only buy the over priced ammo that he sells. The rush of new gun owners then increased his business because they didn't know any better but as they became frustrated waiting for a chance to shoot started looking for alternatives and found better places to shoot and more reasonable choices for ammunition. They may even be some of our new members learning to cast and reload.

Maybe if the range owner had modified his rules or expanded his capacity to remove the frustrating wait he would still be busy. I like to think the free market prevailed and people voted with their feet.

As far as the emails writer's 500 Sierra bullets, I have them. I purchased them at the regular price back in 2009 or 2010 after the last shortage because I realized it could happen again and my boy scout training kicked in. Be prepared; or fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.

Since I work with junior shooters every week I am particularly sensitive to their problems. I have done what I can to help several programs. If you are involved with a junior program or know of any one who is I suggest you read this post on the CMP forum. By the way Orest is the Director of the Civilian Marksmanship Program.

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=102046

[perotter]

As far as the emails writer's 500 Sierra bullets, I have them. I purchased them at the regular price back in 2009 or 2010 after the last shortage because I realized it could happen again and my boy scout training kicked in. Be prepared; or fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.



I think I have those 500 Sierra bullets. I'm sure they are extra ones that bought last Oct when things didn't look like they'd get better with the Nov elections. Plus, I had noticed that the supply of some items were getting lower or sporadic.

Thanks to those that mentioned youth programs. There is one here that I'll have to check with to see if they need any .22 RF. They just started it last summer and it would be shame to see it not happen this summer.

[jcwit]

I think I have those 500 Sierra bullets. I'm sure they are extra ones that bought last Oct when things didn't look like they'd get better with the Nov elections. Plus, I had noticed that the supply of some items were getting lower or sporadic.

Thanks to those that mentioned youth programs. There is one here that I'll have to check with to see if they need any .22 RF. They just started it last summer and it would be shame to see it not happen this summer.

Then my post did not go for naught.

[phil3333]

you cant have the sierras I got em:smile:

[Love Life]

If ya'll have all the Sierra 69 gr bullets then who has all the dang Dillon Super 1050 presses? Oh that's right. Armslist, backpage, craigslist, Gunbroker, Ebay, etc.

Oh well. I'll just use the 550 for now. Smoother and faster than the classic cast.

[Deltak]

Panic buying, hoarding, and gouging. Free market or not, it's pretty far from our finest hour.

[jcwit]

Panic buying, hoarding, and gouging. Free market or not, it's pretty far from our finest hour.

Agreed!

[btroj]

Saying it is far from our finest hour implies you feel some sort of controls would be beneficial?

It is capitalism. It isn't bad, isn't good. It is what it is.

[jcwit]

Something I posted on another web site.

As I have stated before the ones I feel sorry for are the Jr. Leagues, the 4-H groups and the summer camp programs. After all we can not change the seasons. And those who think they are BIG DEALERS at the local gun shows selling ammo at ridiculous prices because their only wholesale supplier to them is a retail outlet. They are a bane to our sport and at best a joke.

And if you still believe its OK for the make believe businessman, I suppose you also feel the illegal alien problem is also OK. After all they are only without papers.

Can't have it both ways, rules are rules, folks acting as dealers using retail outlets as their principal wholesaler are not our friend. To think otherwise is pure folly.

Its not about "capitalism" its about being a bona fide business. And meeting the requirements to be one.

[Alvarez Kelly]

Something I posted on another web site.

As I have stated before the ones I feel sorry for are the Jr. Leagues, the 4-H groups and the summer camp programs. After all we can not change the seasons. And those who think they are BIG DEALERS at the local gun shows selling ammo at ridiculous prices because their only wholesale supplier to them is a retail outlet. They are a bane to our sport and at best a joke.

And if you still believe its OK for the make believe businessman, I suppose you also feel the illegal alien problem is also OK. After all they are only without papers.

Can't have it both ways, rules are rules, folks acting as dealers using retail outlets as their principal wholesaler are not our friend. To think otherwise is pure folly.

Its not about "capitalism" its about being a bona fide business. And meeting the requirements to be one.

I don't understand your gripe about "bona fide businesses." Anybody in this country can buy a legal product and re-sell it when they no longer "need" it. That's what happens at yard sales. People sell stuff they no longer need, or maybe THEY bought it at a yard sale cheap to sell later... I have bought LOTS of reloading gear at estate sales or auctions, figuring I could keep what I wanted and sell the left overs for a profit. You never got a great deal on an item?

Maybe you don't think it's fair, but so what? Life isn't fair. Let the guy make a buck or two. Some will get stuck in the end. Some will have fed their families. Life goes on. All the whining is getting old.

[btroj]

What makes a business "bonafide"?
Sounds like someone who doesn't like garage sales, private sales, or anything that isn't a store front.
People are looking to make a buck. Where is the downside?
I bet the state would say that as long as they are collecting sales tax and reporting it and their income then they are a legitimate business.

The fact it irritates you that people are trying to make a buck is your problem, not theirs. What they are doing is legal. It isn't immoral or unethical. Will I buy at their inflated prices? Nope, but that's my choice. If others do then they have made a choice too, haven't they?

What part of freedom bugs you so much?

[garym1a2]

I beleive in free market also, if price is too high I don't buy. Given the price of 22lr nowdays I just shoot lows of 40, 45,9mm and 223. All of which I can load for less than market price of 22lr. Once the shortage is done, we will have a time of overstock to get bargins.

I don't understand your gripe about "bona fide businesses." Anybody in this country can buy a legal product and re-sell it when they no longer "need" it. That's what happens at yard sales. People sell stuff they no longer need, or maybe THEY bought it at a yard sale cheap to sell later... I have bought LOTS of reloading gear at estate sales or auctions, figuring I could keep what I wanted and sell the left overs for a profit. You never got a great deal on an item?

Maybe you don't think it's fair, but so what? Life isn't fair. Let the guy make a buck or two. Some will get stuck in the end. Some will have fed their families. Life goes on. All the whining is getting old.

[jcwit]

Making a buck or tow on a brick of 22's pr a box of ammo here or there is not the problem, we all to sililar transactions, maybe not with ammo but with whatever at a garage sale or selling to a buddy.

What seems to escape everyones comprehension are those that daily line up at retail outlets like Gander Mountain, Cabela's, WalMart, etc., etc and daily buy out all of the ammo for resale therebuy contining and exaperting the shortage.

They are doing this attempting to actually be in business and then sell at gun shows, GunBroaker, etc. They are no more a business than you or I are a brain surgen, but they are driving the shortage and driving pricing up as they have no REAL wholesale source to buy from.

Making a buck or 2 is one thing, buy a brick of 22's at retail from WalMart for $25.00 then carting it down to the gun show and attempting to sell it for $80.00 is entireally different.

[jcwit]

What makes a business "bonafide"?
Sounds like someone who doesn't like garage sales, private sales, or anything that isn't a store front.
People are looking to make a buck. Where is the downside?
I bet the state would say that as long as they are collecting sales tax and reporting it and their income then they are a legitimate business.


I bet the state won't, at least not here in Indiana.

From someone who had their own retail business and all the licenses and permits to carry out said business.

[jcwit]

What makes a business "bonafide"?

Spose it might be the fact of getting the licensing and permits to carry out said business and then be able to purchase said supplies from actual wholesalers? Not from retail outlets.

That sir is what maked a business bonafide.

[jcwit]

What part of freedom bugs you so much?

Nothing about freedom "bugs" me, as long as we follow the rules and regulations. To not to so is anarchy.

If we wish to not do the above lets make prostitution legal also, and do away with all the drug laws, after all they are only trying to make a "buck or two".

Lets see how that works.

[TenTea]

Nothing about freedom "bugs" me, as long as we follow the rules and regulations. To not to so is anarchy.

If we wish to not do the above lets make prostitution legal also, and do away with all the drug laws, after all they are only trying to make a "buck or two".

Lets see how that works.

Now we're getting somewhere!

[Smitty's Retired]

Spose it might be the fact of getting the licensing and permits to carry out said business and then be able to purchase said supplies from actual wholesalers? Not from retail outlets.

That sir is what maked a business bonafide.

Have you talked with many Sport Shops Business owners?? Do you know any enough that they could confide in you?? I believe you would be surprised at some that do not "only" buy their ammo totally from wholesalers. I used to have a partnership in a sporting goods store. In the 90's there were only two major ammunition wholesalers in our state that sold all major brands, then there were a few ammunition manufacturers such as "Orbit ", "Magnus", and "Summit". Not only us, but a lot of the smaller sports retailers that were not part of a chain (i.e. Dicks's) would often monitor places like Natchez, Sprortsmans Guide, AIM, SOG, etc, because sometimes you could get better deals (including shipping) than you could from your two main wholesalers. Especially when selling surplus ammo for C&R's. Why, you may ask? Because the state wholesaler thought they were the only girls in town and figured the shipping would restrict you from ordering out of state, and he also based his price not only on what the major manufacturers were asking, but also on current events. Remember after 9-11? It was almost imposible to find 9mm for a while, because of all the government contracts that had to be filled by the major manufacturers. So, wholesalers jumped the prices up. That's the nature of the beast. Most retailers are in business for profit. That pays their bills and employees. If they can attain ammunition elsewhere, at a good price that will help their profit margin, they will.

But to say that all retailers that have a license, buy only from wholesalers, is not entirely correct.

In my state, you only have to apply for a state business license to sell ammo as a business. You can sell ammo as an individual with no license ergo why you see people at trade days. In some states there is also not a clear definition or restriction on how much ammunition a person sales. It is usually only looked at, if the person is reported to the state as having a business without a license.

[jcwit]

Have you talked with many Sport Shops Business owners?? Do you know any enough that they could confide in you?? I believe you would be surprised at some that do not "only" buy their ammo totally from wholesalers. I used to have a partnership in a sporting goods store. In the 90's there were only two major ammunition wholesalers in our state that sold all major brands, then there were a few ammunition manufacturers such as "Orbit ", "Magnus", and "Summit". Not only us, but a lot of the smaller sports retailers that were not part of a chain (i.e. Dicks's) would often monitor places like Natchez, Sprortsmans Guide, AIM, SOG, etc, because sometimes you could get better deals (including shipping) than you could from your two main wholesalers. Especially when selling surplus ammo for C&R's. Why, you may ask? Because the state wholesaler thought they were the only girls in town and figured the shipping would restrict you from ordering out of state, and he also based his price not only on what the major manufacturers were asking, but also on current events. Remember after 9-11? It was almost imposible to find 9mm for a while, because of all the government contracts that had to be filled by the major manufacturers. So, wholesalers jumped the prices up. That's the nature of the beast. Most retailers are in business for profit. That pays their bills and employees. If they can attain ammunition elsewhere, at a good price that will help their profit margin, they will.

But to say that all retailers that have a license, buy only from wholesalers, is not entirely correct.



Right, BUT your PRIMARY SOURCE was not other retailers was it?

[jcwit]

In my state, you only have to apply for a state business license to sell ammo as a business. You can sell ammo as an individual with no license ergo why you see people at trade days. In some states there is also not a clear definition or restriction on how much ammunition a person sales. It is usually only looked at, if the person is reported to the state as having a business without a license.

Not in my state of Indiana, nor in the surrounding states of Michigan or Ohio.

Example;

I live 8 miles from one of the largest weekly Flea Markets in the midwest, Shipshewana Trading, its not unheard of for the Indiana Sales Tax folks to show up and check dealers, if fact a few years ago, maybe 5 years they had their own permanent location at the market. Federal Marshals have shown up to check and confiscate counterfeit goods and arrest those selling them. At the time I personally knew one of the dealers selling counterfeit "T" shirts. Weekly sales for him was in the neighborhood of $75,000 to $100,000 dollars, till he left for obvious reasons.

But then he also was just out to make "a buck or two".

[Smitty's Retired]

Not in my state of Indiana, nor in the surrounding states of Michigan or Ohio.

Example;

I live 8 miles from one of the largest weekly Flea Markets in the midwest, Shipshewana Trading, its not unheard of for the Indiana Sales Tax folks to show up and check dealers, if fact a few years ago, maybe 5 years they had their own permanent location at the market. Federal Marshals have shown up to check and confiscate counterfeit goods and arrest those selling them. At the time I personally knew one of the dealers selling counterfeit "T" shirts. Weekly sales for him was in the neighborhood of $75,000 to $100,000 dollars, till he left for obvious reasons.

But then he also was just out to make "a buck or two".

Similar things have happened in our state at flea markets. A few years ago the ATF arrested several people at a flea market that were selling firearms. No...... they weren't individuals, they were Licensed FFL Holders that had shops in Georgia, but were setting up at flea markets in Alabama. Never really figured that one out as far as why??? Business must have been really bad or they had a definate returning clientele.

[Smitty's Retired]

Right, BUT your PRIMARY SOURCE was not other retailers was it? To be completly honest, we had no primary source. You had to be flexible, and on the lookout for good deals. We did order from the wholesaler, but as I said, we kept up with a lot of the other local & online retailers. This allowed us to hold better prices than those who solely bought from the wholesaler.

This may not be true in other states, but at one time, our two wholesalers thought they could ask any price. Matter of factly, one of them wanted you to sign an obligation contract if you did business with him that would obligate you to purchase a specified amount monthly. Oh, and he did not ship. It was up to you to provide a way of picking up your purchase. But it was always amazing to me that there were some Shops who held allegiance solely to them mostly for convenience. You could order, and pick it up the next day.


Look at it kind of like the guy who has a toy shop, or sells NASCAR diecast collectibles along with HotWheels. They (a lot of times) not only commit themselfs to buying from RCCA wholesale, Revelle and Toy Distributers, but If a chain such as Wal-Mart or Target has a half-off sale on their Hotwheels or some of their NASCAR products such as "Racing Champions" many have someone who will see if the store has sealed cases in the back and will purchase them if the store will sell them. Some stores do, and some won't. The profit margin will be about the same because they are able to get the product locally, at a sale price with no shipping at an acceptable price.

[jcwit]

To be completly honest, we had no primary source. You had to be flexible, and on the lookout for good deals. We did order from the wholesaler, but as I said, we kept up with a lot of the other local & online retailers. This allowed us to hold better prices than those who solely bought from the wholesaler.

This may not be true in other states, but at one time, our two wholesalers thought they could ask any price. Matter of factly, one of them wanted you to sign an obligation contract if you did business with him that would obligate you to purchase a specified amount monthly. Oh, and he did not ship. It was up to you to provide a way of picking up your purchase. But it was always amazing to me that there were some Shops who held allegiance solely to them mostly for convenience. You could order, and pick it up the next day.

I guess whatever floats your boat.

I guess my experience in being the buyer for our local hardware store and an additional 10 years of being a procurement officer for at that time, the largest producer of RV's, limits my knowledge to be able to control pricing to the buyers advantage.

Then running with my wife a successful business for another 20 years till full retirement at 58. Life is good.

[Smitty's Retired]

I guess whatever floats your boat.

I guess my experience in being the buyer for our local hardware store and an additional 10 years of being a procurement officer for at that time, the largest producer of RV's, limits my knowledge to be able to control pricing to the buyers advantage.

Then running with my wife a successful business for another 20 years till full retirement at 58. Life is good.

jcqit, I am in no way questioning your abilities or experience. I simply stated how our shop functioned and tried to stay competitive. I am sure yourself, with your experience didn't commit to the first wholesaler that you came across. Also, if either in RV components/accessories or hardware, if you found a shop that was selling or going out of business, and you were able to obtain items/products that yourself sold and was able to get them at a price more cost effective than your wholesaler, you would not hesitate to buy them. Just saying. My first response was also simply that some business' don't hold solely to the wholesaler.

[snaketail]

Been watching the prices at local, Tucson, shops go up and up and up - last week one shop "found" some .22 ammo (Win and Rem you wouldn't normally buy) - people were standing in line to pay $9 for a 50 round box... that's insane.

Speaking of insane - the Homeland Security folks have ordered 1.6 billion (that "B" billion) round of ammo. Homeland Security is Border Patrol, Coast Guard, and the guys who check luggage at the airport.
Let's examine 1.6 billion: (A) That's enough ammo for the agencies to practice and carry for 100 years (would you trust your life to ammo produced in 1913?). (B) It is enough ammo to give every man woman and child in North America 40 rounds. (C) It is more ammo that was used in the Gulf War. (D) It will take ammo makers 4 1/2 years to fill the order. (E) You and I are paying for this. (F) And, "F" indeed - is Homeland Security expecting an invasion, or are they simply buying it to keep it our of our hands.

Write you elected officials - if the government bought 1.6 billion sheets of toilet paper someone would be looking into it, but somehow Homeland security seems to be getting away with this insane purchase that you and I are paying for.

Sorry for the rant - just another frustrated shooter.

[Love Life]

They also use that ammo for training and practice. When we did machine gun shoots the whole company would shoot 2 100 rd belts.

So when they train they are also using a ton of ammo.

[jcwit]

Been watching the prices at local, Tucson, shops go up and up and up - last week one shop "found" some .22 ammo (Win and Rem you wouldn't normally buy) - people were standing in line to pay $9 for a 50 round box... that's insane.

Speaking of insane - the Homeland Security folks have ordered 1.6 billion (that "B" billion) round of ammo. Homeland Security is Border Patrol, Coast Guard, and the guys who check luggage at the airport.
Let's examine 1.6 billion: (A) That's enough ammo for the agencies to practice and carry for 100 years (would you trust your life to ammo produced in 1913?). (B) It is enough ammo to give every man woman and child in North America 40 rounds. (C) It is more ammo that was used in the Gulf War. (D) It will take ammo makers 4 1/2 years to fill the order. (E) You and I are paying for this. (F) And, "F" indeed - is Homeland Security expecting an invasion, or are they simply buying it to keep it our of our hands.

Write you elected officials - if the government bought 1.6 billion sheets of toilet paper someone would be looking into it, but somehow Homeland security seems to be getting away with this insane purchase that you and I are paying for.

Sorry for the rant - just another frustrated shooter.

They have been given the option to order that amount of ammo, the order has yet to be placed.

And from the Hornady site.

http://www.hornady.com/in-the-news/protect-your-rights

so at 5% it'll take a lot longer than 4 1/2 years.

Next we'll have a shortage of aluminum foil because of all the misinformation.

[Alvarez Kelly]

Making a buck or 2 is one thing, buy a brick of 22's at retail from WalMart for $25.00 then carting it down to the gun show and attempting to sell it for $80.00 is entireally different.

You're right! We need federal controls of all ammo purchases. Everyone should only need 1 box of ammo per month. After all, you only need guns to hunt with right?

No? Well, what is YOUR solution?

As another poster said, I buy items for my business wherever I can find the best value. Sometimes, it's at a wholesale house, sometimes it's at a retail outlet, and sometimes, it's at a yard sale!

What is right for you or worked in YOUR business, may not be right for others, or especially in other types of businesses.

[jcwit]

As another poster said, I buy items for my business wherever I can find the best value. Sometimes, it's at a wholesale house, sometimes it's at a retail outlet, and sometimes, it's at a yard sale!


That statement in and of itself speaks volumes of a business.

Yup your avarage Pop & Mom hardware is searching the garage sales for product to sell. What a joke.

No wonder WalMart puts them out of business.

[jcwit]

You're right! We need federal controls of all ammo purchases. Everyone should only need 1 box of ammo per month.

Where did I state that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jcwit]

No? Well, what is YOUR solution?



As I stated earlier


Spose it might be the fact of getting the licensing and permits to carry out said business and then be able to purchase said supplies from actual wholesalers?

[jcwit]

Been watching the prices at local, Tucson, shops go up and up and up - last week one shop "found" some .22 ammo (Win and Rem you wouldn't normally buy) - people were standing in line to pay $9 for a 50 round box... that's insane.

Speaking of insane - the Homeland Security folks have ordered 1.6 billion (that "B" billion) round of ammo. Homeland Security is Border Patrol, Coast Guard, and the guys who check luggage at the airport.
Let's examine 1.6 billion: (A) That's enough ammo for the agencies to practice and carry for 100 years (would you trust your life to ammo produced in 1913?). (B) It is enough ammo to give every man woman and child in North America 40 rounds. (C) It is more ammo that was used in the Gulf War. (D) It will take ammo makers 4 1/2 years to fill the order. (E) You and I are paying for this. (F) And, "F" indeed - is Homeland Security expecting an invasion, or are they simply buying it to keep it our of our hands.

Write you elected officials - if the government bought 1.6 billion sheets of toilet paper someone would be looking into it, but somehow Homeland security seems to be getting away with this insane purchase that you and I are paying for.

Sorry for the rant - just another frustrated shooter.

And a little more reading regarding this post.

http://cnsnews.com/blog/gregory-gwyn-williams-jr/dhs-explains-plans-buy-16b-rounds-ammo-were-buying-bulk-significantly

[Love Life]

Haribo Gummi bears were on sale today. I bought a whole case of them.

[jcwit]

Haribo Gummi bears were on sale today. I bought a whole case of them.

Ever think of using them as targets?

[Love Life]

Never! They are one of my favorite things to munch on.

[Alvarez Kelly]

That statement in and of itself speaks volumes of a business.

Yup your avarage Pop & Mom hardware is searching the garage sales for product to sell. What a joke.

No wonder WalMart puts them out of business.

You are obviously dense. I don't run a hardware store. I said:


What is right for you or worked in YOUR business, may not be right for others, or especially in other types of businesses.

[Alvarez Kelly]

I asked:


Well, what is YOUR solution?

You replied:


as i stated earlier

that's not truthful. You stated you didn't have a solution:


have a solution, haven't got one. But i do know, we have met the enemy and it is us.

[dakotashooter2]

LOL the Gubberment never buys anything at a deal. It starts out as a deal but by the time they add in all their purchase requirements the manufacturer has to sell it to them at higher than his regular price to even make a dime.

[jcwit]

You are obviously dense. I don't run a hardware store. I said:

I'm dense, you better read the reply again, never said or implied YOU even ran a business. No wonder you are unable comprehend what an actual business is. Not a yard sale.

Notice the reference is "a" business.

[jcwit]

I asked:


You replied:



that's not truthful. You stated you didn't have a solution:

That implies I'm lying, calling me untruthful.

My post "have a solution, haven't got one." was my post #17 on this thread made on 4-1-2013 at 9:20 PM.

Two days later and approx 35 1/2 hours later I posted what might/could be a solution and the making of an actual business.

Now it seems to be unreasonable to you for someone to come up with new ideas and perspectives, but that is what happened.

Try opening your mind.

[phil3333]

$75000-$100000 a WEEK selling tee shirts, allrighty lmao

[jcwit]

$75000-$100000 a WEEK selling tee shirts, allrighty lmao

Till you see the size of the market and realize the size of the customer base you have no idea what youre talking about. The parking lot alone is close to 50 acres and they do fill it with cars and buses, during the summer months. The market and parking is larger than the business part of town.

For your reading pleasure and education

http://www.tradingplaceamerica.com/fle-market-map/

Furthermore I know a dealer who sold over 8 tons of bagged unpoped popcorn in 1 season.

[phil3333]

did he make $100000 a week too http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/smilies/lol.gif

[jcwit]

did he make $100000 a week too http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/smilies/lol.gif

Doubt it, but 8 tons of popcorn is nothing to sneeze at.

[Recaster]

I like popcorn.

[Alvarez Kelly]

That implies I'm lying, calling me untruthful.

My post "have a solution, haven't got one." was my post #17 on this thread made on 4-1-2013 at 9:20 PM.

Two days later and approx 35 1/2 hours later I posted what might/could be a solution and the making of an actual business.

Now it seems to be unreasonable to you for someone to come up with new ideas and perspectives, but that is what happened.

Try opening your mind.

Where did you post that? Not in this thread. All complaints, no solutions. No comprehension of how "other" businesses work. I know several people who make six figure incomes selling "junk" on eBay. They don't need business license to be legit. All they have to do is pay taxes on their GAINS! You don't have to buy from a wholesaler to be a legit business. Lots of people buy, but don't sell a product, per se'. They use a product, add value, and sell the result.

So? If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. Quit whining if you can't even propose a solution.

[Alvarez Kelly]

Did I mention... the owner of a new local gun shop (LGS), a legit, retail establishment, tried to convince me today that the suggested retail price on 1000 Federal small pistol primers was $259.95. His WHOLESALE supplier had them in stock. How many did I want? I passed.

Now THAT is supply and demand.

[jcwit]

Where did you post that? Not in this thread. All complaints, no solutions. No comprehension of how "other" businesses work.

Al, you need to read more carefully, or are you just to dense?

Post #69 on this thread this morning at 8:38. Check it out!


Making a buck or tow on a brick of 22's pr a box of ammo here or there is not the problem, we all to sililar transactions, maybe not with ammo but with whatever at a garage sale or selling to a buddy.

What seems to escape everyones comprehension are those that daily line up at retail outlets like Gander Mountain, Cabela's, WalMart, etc., etc and daily buy out all of the ammo for resale therebuy contining and exaperting the shortage.

They are doing this attempting to actually be in business and then sell at gun shows, GunBroaker, etc. They are no more a business than you or I are a brain surgen, but they are driving the shortage and driving pricing up as they have no REAL wholesale source to buy from.

Making a buck or 2 is one thing, buy a brick of 22's at retail from WalMart for $25.00 then carting it down to the gun show and attempting to sell it for $80.00 is entireally different.

[jcwit]

Did I mention... the owner of a new local gun shop (LGS), a legit, retail establishment, tried to convince me today that the suggested retail price on 1000 Federal small pistol primers was $259.95. His WHOLESALE supplier had them in stock. How many did I want? I passed.

Now THAT is supply and demand.

I now understand why Illinois is in the shape its in.

Took awhile, but I got it now.

[geargnasher]

Congratulations, JCWIT, you are officially the very first person here to ever make my ignore list. Enjoy the roast.

Gear

[jcwit]

I know several people who make six figure incomes selling "junk" on eBay. They don't need business license to be legit. All they have to do is pay taxes on their GAINS!

And this is the very reason the states are in the process of cracking down on Amazon & E-Bay dealers who are not collecting sales tax.

[btroj]

That's quite an honor. My first was Frank. My list may grow soon.

I never knew Illinois was in trouble because of excessive free market growth. Here I thought it was excessive legislation, dependency upon government, and a firm belief that making money thru effort was wrong.

Seems to me jcwit that Illinois and their love of legislating all aspects of your life would be right up your alley. I am sure they wouldn't like unofficial businesses either, they would be too hard to tax to death.

[jcwit]

Congratulations, JCWIT, you are officially the very first person here to ever make my ignore list. Enjoy the roast.

Gear

And if you happen to read this at some point.

Right back atcha!

[TXGunNut]

These panics are quite entertaining. I love going to the range and watching folks pay $2 every time they pull the trigger. Hoarding and gouging is great sport as well, great to see an extreme example of the free market in action. Just like the last time, I'm not participating in this one as a buyer or a seller. Next time I may participate as a seller, who knows?
This time around I had a modest supply laid back, just like I've had for years. I don't shoot much so several thousand primers and a nice variety of powders will get me by for years. I'll lay in a few extras when things get back to normal. It may seem like a hoard to some folks, doesn't bother me a bit. I'd rather be a hoarder than a whiner.
Ooops, gotta go. Someone just posted some 69gr .224 Sierra bullets under WTS. I prefer Hornady, don't even load 223 these days but I think I'll buy them!

[jcwit]

That's quite an honor. My first was Frank. My list may grow soon.

I never knew Illinois was in trouble because of excessive free market growth. Here I thought it was excessive legislation, dependency upon government, and a firm belief that making money thru effort was wrong.

Seems to me jcwit that Illinois and their love of legislating all aspects of your life would be right up your alley. I am sure they wouldn't like unofficial businesses either, they would be too hard to tax to death.

Yes, but Indiana is in no trouble. Even with our free market, the legit kind. Our businesses do quite well here, even grow in our county.

[btroj]

So nobody in Indiana is a money grubbing faux business man?

If a guy can make money selling a legal product them why not? If he charges outrageous prices and people pay then is he to blame?

Is the gas station along the interstate guilty of gouging people because they charge more for gas than a station with strong competition?

Free markets are just that, free. People can buy or not buy. You can either spend your money or not spend it.

[jcwit]

So nobody in Indiana is a money grubbing faux business man?

If a guy can make money selling a legal product them why not? If he charges outrageous prices and people pay then is he to blame?

Is the gas station along the interstate guilty of gouging people because they charge more for gas than a station with strong competition?

Free markets are just that, free. People can buy or not buy. You can either spend your money or not spend it.

The funny part about all this is I have no need to spend it all for this sport.

Years and years ago I stocked up when these components were on sale, not to hoard them just because they were on sale. Did the same with motor oil. My avg. cost for a brick of .22's is $6 to $7 bucks, primers in the neighborhood of $40 per sleeve of 5,000, powder $8 to $12 dollars a lb. Motor oil, Mobil 1, & Pennzoil Plantium approx $2 to $3 bucks a quart.

Seriously doubt I'll ever have a need to purchase more in my lifetime. Got plenty.

BTW, here in Indiana it likely the price of gas will be the same on the toll way as off the toll way. And you're OK with the profit margin the oil companies have even with the government controls.

[Alvarez Kelly]

Where did you post that? Not in this thread. All complaints, no solutions...


Al, you need to read more carefully, or are you just to dense?

Post #69 on this thread this morning at 8:38. Check it out!
I challenge anybody to find anything resembling a suggestion in the following:


Making a buck or tow on a brick of 22's pr a box of ammo here or there is not the problem, we all to sililar transactions, maybe not with ammo but with whatever at a garage sale or selling to a buddy.

What seems to escape everyones comprehension are those that daily line up at retail outlets like Gander Mountain, Cabela's, WalMart, etc., etc and daily buy out all of the ammo for resale therebuy contining and exaperting the shortage.

They are doing this attempting to actually be in business and then sell at gun shows, GunBroaker, etc. They are no more a business than you or I are a brain surgen, but they are driving the shortage and driving pricing up as they have no REAL wholesale source to buy from.

Making a buck or 2 is one thing, buy a brick of 22's at retail from WalMart for $25.00 then carting it down to the gun show and attempting to sell it for $80.00 is entireally different.

[jcwit]

So nobody in Indiana is a money grubbing faux business man?

Where did I claim, state, or imply that?

[Alvarez Kelly]

I never knew Illinois was in trouble because of excessive free market growth. Here I thought it was excessive legislation, dependency upon government, and a firm belief that making money thru effort was wrong.



Ain't that the truth... Oh... and crooked politicians...

"Illinois; where are governors make our license plates!"

[jcwit]

I challenge anybody to find anything resembling a suggestion in the following:

I know its difficult, but here it is again.

What seems to escape everyones comprehension are those that daily line up at retail outlets like Gander Mountain, Cabela's, WalMart, etc., etc and daily buy out all of the ammo for resale therebuy contining and exaperting the shortage.

They are doing this attempting to actually be in business and then sell at gun shows, GunBroaker, etc. They are no more a business than you or I are a brain surgen, but they are driving the shortage and driving pricing up as they have no REAL wholesale source to buy from.

Spose it might be the fact of getting the licensing and permits to carry out said business and then be able to purchase said supplies from actual wholesalers? Not from retail outlets

If we wish to not do the above lets make prostitution legal also, and do away with all the drug laws, after all they are only trying to make a "buck or two".

[btroj]

So it bugs you. Big deal. It doesn't bother me.

I wasn't aware that you were the moral compass for society.

[jcwit]

I wasn't aware that you were the moral compass for society.

I'm not, that is up to all of us. But its obvious that has gone by the wayside in todays society.

Its now changed into "all about me, me, me", and how much can I get.

Its how we got our present administration.

[Alvarez Kelly]

I know its difficult, but here it is again.

What seems to escape everyones comprehension are those that daily line up at retail outlets like Gander Mountain, Cabela's, WalMart, etc., etc and daily buy out all of the ammo for resale therebuy contining and exaperting the shortage.

They are doing this attempting to actually be in business and then sell at gun shows, GunBroaker, etc. They are no more a business than you or I are a brain surgen, but they are driving the shortage and driving pricing up as they have no REAL wholesale source to buy from.

Spose it might be the fact of getting the licensing and permits to carry out said business and then be able to purchase said supplies from actual wholesalers? Not from retail outlets

If we wish to not do the above lets make prostitution legal also, and do away with all the drug laws, after all they are only trying to make a "buck or two".

If you think there is a suggestion buried somewhere in that jumble, you should try to write more clearly.

I think you may be suggesting that "someone" force all sellers everywhere, Craigslist, eBay, local gunshows, and even flea markets, to only buy from wholesalers. How? More legislation? How would that work? I see used stuff all the time? Where do you buy used stuff wholesale?

I've it said several times now... all whining, no solution.

I've tried. You don't get it. You only see the world through your own experiences. Since you don't "need" anything ever again, why does it bother you so much. know... It ain't fair. So what. The world is not fair. That's life.

And now, you are added to my ignore list. Too much negativity for me. Life's too short.

I'm out.

[jcwit]

And now, you are added to my ignore list. Too much negativity for me. Life's too short.

I'm out.

NOW I've got something to whine about.

[waksupi]

Am I going to have to go cut a switch?

[uscra112]

Am I going to have to go cut a switch?

Yeah, this is beginning to look like the flame wars on SHTFPlan.

[jcwit]

Am I going to have to go cut a switch?

It does look as if neither of us can accept the others ideals, or ideas, or viewpoints. So it has gone on and on, at least it was kept to a fairly civil manner. And no name calling insued, by either side. That in itself is a plus.

[fishin_bum]

Free Market is based on Supply and Demand! Right now the demand is high, the supply is low, the price is what ever you are willing to pay to meet your demand. We line up at Wal-mart, travel hundreds of miles to gun shows, we check every place that might possibly have the ammo we demand, if we buy it where we find it at the price they are asking we are supporting the free market and helping drive the price. Until we all take a breath and let the suppliers catch theirs the price will continue to climb, supplies will remain low and those that weren't first in line willing to buy will think they got screwed because there isn't any on the shelf when they wanted them. The "I want what I want when I want it attitude"

I personally can't afford most of the ammo I do come across, so I sit in my basement for hours and hours each week cleaning brass, casting lead, swaging bullets, loading various rounds. When supplies run low I am out at the range on hands and knees picking up 22lr brass out of the dirt or offering to fix a friends drain lines just for the lead pipe I take out, cast fishing sinkers for the tire guy so he will give me wheel weights.

Yesterday I gave a friend 1000 .224 bullets He thanked me, then stated that he didn't know if he had enough primers to load them, then he showed me the 4 new gun he bought that take that round. My thoughts were "those are nice but what are you going to do with them?"
I have stocked powder and primers for years, not alot but enough that if I want to go shoot, I go, don't have more guns than ammo and never will!

[strshtr308]

I have to agree with the author. There seems to be a lot of panic buying going on. I am glad I saw the writing on the wall in regards to reloading staples, but I can't say the same for casting supplies. It seems that people like myself are realizing they need to start casting and now everything is hard to get !

[fishin_bum]

Any time I have bought a gun that is not a caliber I already own I also buy reloading dies, brass, bullet mould, powder, bullets and primers. So that gun I just picked up for $400 cost me around $800 to $1000. In the case of the .40 I bought last year I also bought BTSnipers one step swage die so my investment was $1500 but I can shoot it for around $.04 a round. Until I have to buy powder and primers again then current prices will be $.08 to $.10 a round.

[Boyscout]

I believe in the free market. However, we have a wild card here that does not fit the normal cycles of Supply & Demand. We have a president and a party who has shown their hand when it comes to the Constitution of the United States. It is not an unreasonable fear that the ammunition shortage will ever resolve itself. Have we ever had a full blown Marxist as a president? Freedom and free enterprise has never won in history where Marxism/socialism is in control.

[uscra112]

I'm going to start by stating the definition of Economics as handed down from the Mount in my Econ. 101 class in college. "Economics is the study of the allocation of scarce resources." Whether you're a Keynesian or an Austrian, you both agree on that. In a free market economy, price of goods is a signalling mechanism, which tells holders of goods where to sell them. There's a class of economic actors called arbitragers, whose prime activity is to buy where goods where they are cheap, and transport them to sell where the prices is higher. The colloquial epithet for them is scalpers, but no matter. What's interesting is that the Internet has provided a mechanism where anybody with fifty bucks and a computer can be an arbitrager. As can any distributor with a truckload or two of ammo in a warehouse. I think that's where some portion of the ammo has gone. It is in limbo in warehouses or has been bought at retail stores and stashed in thousands of "somebodies'" garages, waiting to be bid on and sold, whereupon it will be delivered by UPS to somebody who was willing to pay the true price.

(Wonderful thing about auctions, you really, really do find out what the true price of a thing is. That's why stock and commodity markets are essentially auction houses!)

What should be happening is that the prices at the brick-and-mortar retailers should be much higher. That would bring the profit in arbitraging down to a level where it would not be so profitable, and more ammo would stay in stores where it could be bought directly by consumers. Won't happen, because the colossal ignorance of the low information voter will scream "gouging", and that's bad Public Relations for WalMart and Cabelas. This is monumentally bad policy. Screaming about forcing retail prices to conform to some moral imperative only makes the situation worse. It slows the return to the equilibrium state, where the ammo production is uniformly distributed to the consumer, and the consumer knows it, so he stops the panic buying.

Another factor that may be in play is long-term supply contracts between distributors and these big retailers. These have the same effect as mandated price controls on gasoline did in the '70s. (Yes, I'm old enough to remember!) The distributor has a huge incentive to divert supply to "grey" or even "black" market channels where he can get a better price. The innertubes are the perfect tool for implementing that tactic. (In my day, it was a fuel-oil truck filled with gas, parked on an out-of-the-way side street.)

Get used to it. And get used to the idea that the twenty dollar brick of Thunderbolt is gone for quite a while. An old economists' saying about prices in a disrupted market is "up like a rocket, down like a feather".

And be thankful that it's just ammo, and not food and water.

[Suo Gan]

What we are experiencing is the first part of supply and demand. Price is being determined by demand, and will eventually find an equilibrium. The nice part, and I am speaking from experience is that there is the flip side to this coin. When the market gets saturated...this is the point when folks realize that they do not need X, Y, or Z that was bought on a whim. They want to recoup some of their money. No one is shooting all this ammo and components fellas. All these guns are not being shot. All the presses, and tools are not being used. It is all being horded. It will be sold for ten cents on the dollar in the next ten years. It is going to be great. I am from California. We have had a series of governors that have gone to and fro, and what we are seeing right now is a time when you sell all the stuff to the people you bought it from ten years ago for ten or twenty times what they sold it to you for. This is a good retirement plan. They never cease to want to buy high and sell low. It works for me. I am not complaining. As they say, a fool is soon parted from their money. But they gotta have it NOW!!! Okay.

PS I wanted to add this not as a neener neener to kids or folks just getting into the hobby. I am bringing this up as encouragement that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and there will be a lot of great deals out there. Take heart.

[jcwit]

I agree with the last 3 posts except for the fact there are those who see themselves as the big time dealers using again the retail outlets as their source of supply then jacking the normal retail price up to "make a couple of bucks", they are only out for themselves and are a bane to our sport.

Look at it this way, would they help you drag your deer out of the woods to the pick-up? Sure, as long as they got the choice cuts.

It all about themselves, in other words Me, me, me, and what can I get.

[btroj]

And that is what capitalism is about.

Get off your high horse about where they buy stuff.

It bugs you. We get that. It isn't illegal. It isn't immoral. Where is the problem?

They want to make money so they buy a good to resell. They resell it t a profit. That is a free market. Where they buy the good initially isn't relevant.

A business isn't in business to provide services for the good of the world. They aren't there to serve their fellow man. They are there to make money!

You have a very narrow view of how a business would run. Others don't share that view.

Does the primer shortage but me a bit? Yes. Am I whining over it. No.

You say you don't need supplies or ammo. What exactly is your beef then?

[jcwit]

Its becoming more obvious who is on thier high horse and getting all upset, and it sure isn't me!

Wow, settle down btroi, take a deep breath, and relax.


It isn't illegal.
It isn't immoral.

That may be up for debate depending. That also is debatable.


Where is the problem?

There in is the problem.

You know btroi, why don't you just agree to disagree, before you blow a fuse.

[btroj]

Whatever dude

[Suo Gan]

I did not take your original post as an affront to capitalism. It was just one mans opinion about those who are greedy trying to get one over on those who do not have the foresight or money to stock up. About five years ago I was in a mans shop who had bought hard during one of the past "run on guns" here. He was doing gun shows and having to take a loss on the items he purchased at retail and that he was having to sell below retail to move it. This works both ways. I believe that the market will be saturated fairly soon. If you have followed trends, you will see that the height was probably January and early February of this year. Most ammo is selling for about twice its normal retail. Calibers like 22LR, 9mm, 40SW, 223, 308W, 7.62x39 are the ones that are being horded. Say you have a 30 Remington, you can still find ammo for fairly cheap. I have often said that is why folks need to have some of the odd calibers. I just picked up 180 300 Savage for $100 at the last show. While a $100 would have bought a box or two (if you could find them) of 308.

It is not a bad business model for the 'poor' man to invest $100 here and and there on 22 ammo. I have done so for years. I have sold almost all of what I have recently, and purchased the odd stuff right now when everyone is focused on the 'gold.' I enjoy this sort of thing. I have been doing it for a long time, and do it as a hobby now. A person can make a good living buying low and selling high. I don't make a living at it, but it keeps me going, and funds more interesting projects for me. At one of the last gun shows I spent $35 on something and sold it for $600, I bought $600 worth of knives and sold them for $3000, I bought $3000 worth of 22 ammo before the crunch and sold them for $20000, now I am buying other things...but not 22 ammo ;). It is like hunting for gold nuggets. Sometimes you get stuck with things. That is the nature of the beast. That is my prediction for many of the scalpers you are speaking out against. There are folks that do 100x what I sell in a year in a few days. I prefer this to a system where the government dictates what is 'fair.' I am sure you will agree that there is no 'fairness' when they get involved.

[Blacksmith]

..... except for the fact there are those who see themselves as the big time dealers using again the retail outlets as their source of supply then jacking the normal retail price up to "make a couple of bucks", they are only out for themselves and are a bane to our sport.


Maybe you should go to the retail stores yourself and buy all the ammo before the gougers can get it then you can sell it at your cost to the people who "deserve It'.

Become part of the solution instead of just complaining.

[uscra112]

I agree with the last 3 posts except for the fact there are those who see themselves as the big time dealers using again the retail outlets as their source of supply then jacking the normal retail price up to "make a couple of bucks", they are only out for themselves......."

As Adam Smith pointed out quite eloquently, therein lies the magic of the free market - each man acting for himself benefits the whole. He published that in 1776. Over the succeeding 240 years, nobody has been able to show that it's not true, except by invoking some sort of moral imperative, which always seems to be designed to benefit the invoker. Curious, that.

[jcwit]

Maybe you should go to the retail stores yourself and buy all the ammo before the gougers can get it then you can sell it at your cost to the people who "deserve It'.

Become part of the solution instead of just complaining.

I have more principals than to do business as a scalper.

As far as to the people who "deserv it". No idea what you're talking about, that is of no concern of mine.

Obviously you see things differently, frankly I could care less.

BTW you ask me to stop complaining, how bout you stop complaining about me and my ideals.

[jcwit]

As Adam Smith pointed out quite eloquently, therein lies the magic of the free market - each man acting for himself benefits the whole. He published that in 1776. Over the succeeding 240 years, nobody has been able to show that it's not true, except by invoking some sort of moral imperative, which always seems to be designed to benefit the invoker. Curious, that.

So legalize prostution and drugs, after all they are only acting for themselves.

All hail the "scalper".

[jcwit]

None of you will change my ideals, nor I yours, Why not give it a rest?

[btroj]

Ummmm, "we" didn't start this.

[jcwit]

Ummmm, "we" didn't start this.

Correct, so by complaining about me stating how I see it makes it OK!

Sorry, I'm entitled to my views just as much as any one else here.

Whether I started it or not.

Or is it only your views that matter?

[btroj]

We never said you weren't entitled, we simply refuse to agree.

[jcwit]

We never said you weren't entitled, we simply refuse to agree.

dito

Do I care? Not really!

I see you've cooled down. Thats good, there for awhile I thought you might go over the edge.

[Baja_Traveler]

Can't find 1380 J-words huh. Should have planned ahead...

66421

[btroj]

I prefer you not worry over my mental status. Trust me, I am just fine.

Save your worrying for someone who needs it.

[jcwit]

I prefer you not worry over my mental status. Trust me, I am just fine.

Save your worrying for someone who needs it.

Well the Good Book does say "Love Your Enemy", does it not.

So I guess I should concern myself with your mental status.

[btroj]

I disagree with a whiney tirade and I become an enemy.

And you question MY mental stability?

Wow

[8mmFan]

I got it, no worries! I think bummer took the character of Wesley Mouch as a role model, even uses the same rhetoric. He must not have finished the book, though.

In a free market, sometimes you can't get what you want at a reasonable price because of a bunch of meanies. If something is in high demand and scarce long enough, somebody else intent on making a buck will dump some capital into producing more of it. Or just wait. It baffles me that experienced handloaders would get caught short this time around, it isn't like stuff wasn't available at fair prices for the past couple of years.

If you're a newbie who suddenly finds there's a shortage going on, stuff can be had, often at not-so-ridiculous prices, you just have to search a little harder. This too, shall pass, thanks to the nature of the free market.

Gear

LOVE the reference to Wesley Mouch! I wish every American knew who Wesley Mouch and John Galt are. It never ceases to amaze--and scare--me at how right she really got it, nearly SIXTY years ago. 8mmFan

[jcwit]

I disagree with a whiney tirade and I become an enemy.

And you question MY mental stability?

Wow

Maybe it was love your neighbor!

Who's whining, having an opinion is not whining.

How long do you wish to keep this up? Just wondering, I have all the time in the world.

Nothing else, we're both getting our post count up, don't know what thats supposed to prove tho.

[Blacksmith]

I have more principals than to do business as a scalper.

As far as to the people who "deserv it". No idea what you're talking about, that is of no concern of mine.

Obviously you see things differently, frankly I could care less.

BTW you ask me to stop complaining, how bout you stop complaining about me and my ideals.

I said "...at your cost..." nothing about scalping.

Since you don't think scalpers should not be allowed to buy it then who do you think "deserves it".

[waksupi]

My granny would have been making sugar tits by now.