Mot robust SxS 12ga? (i.e. can handle highest pressure loads)

[cpileri]

believe it or not, a 12-yr old shooter with a fascination for SxS's asked me this:

What double barrel side-by-side can handle the biggest "boomer" loads?

After discussing it with him a little, we determined he meant an action that can handle high(er) pressure loads. I told him about info from hubel458's 12gaFH thread that the Savage bolt-action can handle to 35000psi and that the TC/NEF single shots to 25000 psi, and that a H&R/Rossi with a custom barrel (of 1.5" diameter) can handle abt the same. But he wants a strong SxS (not over under).

Do any exist? I suppose some info on the strength of commercially available guns would help us here.

preferably not an English "Bore" gun that costs $20000, please!

Thanks,
C-

[dverna]

C

My gut tells me it is not the action that will fail but the barrels. Baikal marketed a 45/70 double rifle that looked like their 12 gauge SxS and I think it was rated at 32,000 psi. 12 ga barrels on these guns are not thick to keep weight down.

That must be some 12 YO. I cannot imagine enjoying shooting anything bigger than a 3" mag out of any SxS's I have ever fired. LOL

[hubel458]

There are shotgun actions that can handle double rifle pressures,
but they need heavy barrels put on them whether shotgun like
the 12ga FH or big bore rifles. In the 12ga FH thread are pics of Rob
puttin heavy 12ga FH barrels on a heavy 10ga frame. Have your
youngster look at that.Ed

[cpileri]

Custom 12ga Heavy barrels on a 10ga frame??? Now there's an idea!
Will any frame do? or are some brands better than others?
C-

[TonyfromItaly]

this guy in italy makes an excellent 12/89 ga express

http://www.newsystemarms.com/arms-product-scheda.php?language=1&Id_fucile=42

[hubel458]

Rob is using a Zabala 10ga alloy frame and monoblocking in
12ga barrels into the barrel stubs of the cut off 10ga barrels.
Cut off even with end of pivot. That is how most factories
in mass production make them now. Many other brands of
doubles made in Spain and Italy will do as long as modern
steel alloy.Ed

[cpileri]

I guesstimate that 12/89 means 12ga, 3.5-inch? How can i order one in the USA? My parents are going to Italy next year, but importing this shotgun is probably not what they had in mind!
I am of Italian ancestry, but my spoken Italian is poor.
Can i get a translation?

it looks AWESOME!!!

UNIVERSAL EXPRESS SHOTGUNS

Mod. "M.R. 728 UNIVERSAL EXPRESS SHOTGUNS"
OLTRE IL PARADAX
Doppietta express CAL. 12/89. -728.M.R.
UN FUCILE CHE VI PERMETTE DI CACCIARE DALL'ALLODOLA ALL' ELEFANTE
PROGETTO DALL'ALLODOLA ALL'ELEFANTE.(COME IL TITOLO DEL LIBRO DI PONCE DE LEON ADELIO) In un ipotetico viaggio di caccia attorno al mondo in OTTANTA ANIMALI , partendo dal mio Piemonte a caccia di lepri, anatre, cinghiali ecc.., poi con un trasferimento nel' Europa dell'est dal mio amico Fulvio a caccia di oche, anatre caprioli e orsi, e poi in Africa a leopardi, leoni, fococeri, antilopi, bufali e ancora volare prima in argentina per cacciare i grossi cinghiali e gli acquatici e un altro volo negli U.S.A. per il tacchino selvatico e il cervo mulo, per poi far rientro in Italia per il passaggio di allodole e beccacce, non potendo portare con me dieci armi diverse, ma portandone una sola quale avrei scelto? In passato ditte famose come Holland & Holland, Manufrance, Westey Richards, Jeffery,ecc.. hanno cercato di risolvere il problema e in parte ci sono riuscite. In Francia la MANUFRANCE fece canne lisce rigate denominate "SUPRA" per stabilizzare le palle e allargare le rosate, queste canne oggi vengono costruite a Gardone dove molti costruttori le montano denominandole Paradox, con un evidente errore, perché il "PARADOX" nato in HOLLAND & HOLLAND, inventato dal Colonnello Fosbery, pur avendo la stessa funzione riguarda un tratto di rigatura che comprende solo la parte della strozzatura. Per avere sufficiente energia per gli animali più grossi si usavano i calibri 8, potenti ma pesanti e con un forte rinculo.I calibri 8 vennero abbandonati a favore degli express con il passaggio alla polvere nitro, più leggeri e di eguale potenza. Con il PARADOX della Holland & Holland, che come diceva la stessa casa costrutrice, si poteva cacciare dal beccaccino alla tigre. L'ottimo progetto Paradox di Holland & Holland, aveva due limiti, la cartuccia a palla sviluppava prestazioni piùttosto basse in cal. 12, simili alle attuali slug. Per questo facevano calibri superiori come il cal. 10 e il cal.8. In oltre la parte rigata della canna era fissa e questo non permetteva tiri lunghi a pallini, ma si comportava come una canna cilindrica. Oggi anche le canna lisce si sono evolute e con il 12/89 si ha un fucile leggero come un cal. 12 con le prestazioni di potenza di un cal.8, e con cariche di pallini che vanno dai 24 grammi ai 70, varie palle anche esse con pesi e forma vari dalle sferiche, alle Brenneke, alle slug, alle Souvestre (ricordo che Pierre Caravati in Selous Tanzania ha già abbattuto bufali con una souvestre 12 Magnum). Con gli strozzatori intercambiabili, possiamo avere canne cilindriche, strozzate in vari gradi,e con quelli rigati avere il PARADOX. Con un bossolo in ottone 12/89 negli USA si sta facendo il 700 From Hell, io tempo fa feci lo stesso creando il cal. 728 M.R. per il revolver più grande del mondo "CUCCIOLO" ora con questa serie di fucili, sovrapposti e doppiette con varie lunghezze di canna in grado di sparare qualunque cartuccia cal. 12, 12 Magnum, 12 Supermagnum e .728 M.R. eliminando i limiti del paradox di Holland & Holland NASCE IL FUCILE CHE PUO' ABBATTERE TUTTO DALL'ALLODOLA ALL'ELEFANTE.

C-

[Cap'n Morgan]

this guy in italy makes an excellent 12/89 ga express

http://www.newsystemarms.com/arms-product-scheda.php?language=1&Id_fucile=42


The weight is listed as 3.2 kg! That's a tad over seven pounds... No way I'd be firing 3-1/2" shells in that one.

[TonyfromItaly]

C- if you get google translator, you will get it done in a few seconds, as it would take me half hour to do a good job. It can be made with rifled barrels or smooth ones. It can use brass hulls and become a "700 from hell". If you write then, i am sure they will tell you how you can get one in texas.

Cap'n Morgan- yes it is 3.5 inch. Such shells are loaded with very progressive powders, and often the recoil is less then a 3 ". Perceived recoil also depends on the body mass of the shooter.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Savage Fox B. Or the 311. They were made heavy. Yes they would blow apart. But tell that young shooter to do his testing sitting behind cross sticks or standing with just a thin shirt on and he will not blow up a double Savage.
Origonal Fox barrels are just as thick but far more costly. I see average, no finish 311's for sale for $150 at shows and sales. Mine will handle caliber.685 RB at 1550 all day long. That is more than the 150 year ago elephant hunters used. If he needs more than that go to a bolt gun.
Mike in Peru

Springfield, Stevens and some store brands are the same beast. Just more plain.

[nekshot]

If he wants to go the route of serious barrels, I have a nice golf caddy I don't use that would look nice attached to a double gun!

[cpileri]

Here we go:

A RIFLE THAT ALLOWS YOU TO HUNT DALL'ALLODOLA 'ELEPHANT
PROJECT DALL'ALLODOLA elephant. (AS THE TITLE OF THE BOOK OF PONCE DE LEON ADELIO) In a hypothetical hunting trip around the world in EIGHTY ANIMALS, starting from my Piedmont hunting for hares, ducks, wild boar, etc. .., then with a transfer in the 'Eastern Europe by my friend Fulvio hunting of geese, ducks, deer and bears, and then in Africa leopards, lions, fococeri, antelope, buffalo and still fly the first in Argentina to hunt large wild boars and water and another flight in the U.S. for the wild turkey and mule deer, and then to return to Italy for the passage of larks and woodcock, not able to take me ten different weapons, but carrying one which I would have chosen? In the past, famous companies such as Holland & Holland, Manufrance, Westey Richards, Jeffery, etc. .. have tried to solve the problem in hand, we have succeeded. In France, the MANUFRANCE made smooth barrels rifled called "SUPRA" to stabilize and expand the pink balls, these rods are now made in Gardone where many manufacturers Paradox calling them the mountain, with an obvious error, because the "PARADOX" born in HOLLAND & HOLLAND, invented by Colonel Fosbery, while having the same function relates to a stretch of rifling which includes only the part of the bottleneck. In order to have enough energy for the larger animals were used 8 gauges, powerful but heavy and with a strong rinculo.I 8 gauges were abandoned in favor of express with the transition to the nitro powder, lighter and the same power. With the PARADOX of Holland & Holland, as expressed in the same house costrutrice, you could snipe hunt by the tiger. The excellent project Paradox of Holland & Holland, had two limits, the cartridge ball developed performance rather low in cal. 12, similar to the current slug. For this caliber were higher as the cal. 10 and the cal.8. In addition the rifled barrel was fixed and this did not allow long shots with buckshot, but acted as a cylindrical barrel. Today, even the smooth barrel and have evolved with the 12/89 you have a gun as light as a cal. 12 with the power performance of a cal.8, and loaded with bullets ranging from 24 grams to 70, various balls with weights and they also form different from spherical to Brenneke, the slug, the Souvestre (remember Pierre Caravati Selous in Tanzania has already shot down a buffalo with Souvestre 12 Magnum). With interchangeable, we can have cylindrical barrels, choked in varying degrees, and with the stripes have the PARADOX. With a brass cartridge case 12/89 in the U.S. is doing 700 From Hell, I recently did the same by creating the cal. 728 M.R. for the revolver world's largest "PUPPY" now with this series of rifles, shotguns and overlapping with various barrel lengths capable of firing any cartridge cal. 12, 12 Magnum, 12 Supermagnum and .728 M.R. eliminating the limits of the paradox of Holland & Holland BORN THE GUN THAT CAN 'KILL ALL DALL'ALLODOLA elephant.

[jmort]

A 12 gauge, smooth or rifled, will smoke anything on earth. No need for the exotic.

[hubel458]

You don't suppose we FH nuts have started something. Ed

[TonyfromItaly]

Good translation!! in italy you can get easily some smoothbore tested at 1650 bars, about 24,000 psi. Fabarm makes those guns. However i am sure that new sistem arms has barrels made of a steel that tests that or above.

[cpileri]

I know for sure you, Mr. hubel458, have started something with ME!

So Fabarm can handle 24kpsi, and these "elephant" guns seem more like "bore" rifles, and the British bore rifles (measured in Tons per sq inch, which might be British Long Tonnes- a slightly more than 2000lb/ton measurement) can handle up in the 15 ton(nes)-per-sq-inch (or >30000 psi) range.

I might have to look into one, vs asking a custom builder here in the US to fabricate a robust 12ga double.

And what is the 728M.R. they refer to? is it a step up from the 3.5" magnums? or is it more of a "bore' cartridge? or is it the Italian version of the 12ga FH?

Although, as pointed out, a 10-lb rifle might be more pleasant to shoot than these.

C-

[TonyfromItaly]

Cpileri. the 728 MR is a smooth bore, 12 ga revolver, as you see here http://www.newsystemarms.com/arms-invenzioni.php?language=1

i have done pressure barrel tests with a lyman sabot 12 ga and pushing it 470 meters/ second 1540 fts only gave 11603 psi.(800 bars)

So if you get a Fabarm tested at 24000 psi, the velocity you can achieve.... you can immagine!!

[cpileri]

Dear sir TonyfromItaly,
That 12ga MR is a beastly looking firearm!!

What load data did you use for your 11603psi load?

Also, just seems to me, that a sabot load would produce lowest pressures; all other factors being equal. Due to lack of wall friction between sabot and bore. Especially if the sabot is dusted w mica? or hexagonal boron nitrite powder? Am I off base?

I was thinking of a smoothbore for this "robust" 12ga project, to allow for use of shot as well as slugs. Where a sabot load would almost require me to use a rifled barrel for accuracy. Am I off base again?

C-

[TonyfromItaly]

Dear C-

Very few american powders are available in Italy. You do not know how lucky you are.... occasionally we get IMR 800x, but 1 lb costs us the equivalent of 70 dollars, instead of the 22 you pay there. I use a Baschieri & Pellagri powder called MB36. The max pressure happens in the very few milliseconds following the ignition of the powder. Basically the shell has barely opened. If you desire true accuracy in smoothbore 12 ga, sabots are not the way to go. The best solution is a slug that has autoreducing rings (like rings on a engine's piston) . Gualandi makes one slug that way, so does Locatelli


http://www.locatellisnc.it/frame.html

I am working on a mold that has 2 reducing rings, and it should be very accurate with all chokes!! However, both lyman and lee slugs loaded in plastic wads can give you decent accuracy at 50 yards (if you load them properly)

66366

[Harter66]

State side there is the Winchester 100(?) . There was a side by side test done w/a Greener and a Purdy ,both of which were destroyed . They went on to see just how many Winchester proof loads it would soak up . If i recall right and I may not,somewhere around 50 the Winchester staff started pulling them off 2 at a time spending well over 100 proof rounds before giving up w/o breaking or exseccesive headspace. You did say under 20K too didnt you.

Mr Huble mentioned on another forum several years ago several ,were they African, doubles that were proofed to 100k I think.

[cpileri]

Thanks ALL,
]Now you've got me looking for a WInchester 100 or something!
C-

[quasi]

Savage Fox B. Or the 311????????????????????????

these are the weakest side by sides ever made in America. You want strong, use a Winchester21