1911 feeding????

[mainiac]

Ive only ever fooled around with this one 1911 ruger. Ive fired about a 1000 rounds threw it,working on loads. Since I went to the accurate #68 copy mold, the gun has fed flawless.

Ive shot loads from 580 f.p.s.,,to full screech loads that went over 1000f.p.s. This gun feeds them all. The 580 f.p.s. load was 2.8 grs of red dot,and the empties just barely fly out of the gun,and land pretty much on top of the head/right shoulder. The 1000 f.p.s. loads with 231,will throw the brass 16-18 feet away.

Ive read so much about guys having to change springs and change this and that,and my question is,,,,,why dont this ruger need different springs to shoot these way different speed loads? Did i get lucky,or did ruger do there engineering,and it was built hassle free?

[Artful]

There is a lot of history about 1911 - we've had it built for over 100 years - I'm glad you Ruger 1911 is working great - and for the most part I think all the new 1911's (from Taurus to Dan Wesson etc) are working without need of help a good pistolsmith - I have more than one version of the 1911 - some required minor work some none.

I'm hoping other Ruger 1911 owners will stop in and say they are not having issues as well.

[mainiac]

Im slowly getting it dialed in.Its the most fussy handgun ive ever loaded for.It likes very light loads,or wide open.Any of the in between loads,have alot of fliers.Not bad fliers, but im kind of hoping that this gun will consistantly shoot groups of 1.5 inch@25 yards, and it only does that when loaded way down,or way up. Aint no surprise to me really,because almost every rifle i own,behaves the same way.But i dont recall running into this with a handgun before.....

[wv109323]

First the 1911 was known for its reliability during military testing way back when. That is the main reason it was chosen over its competition and that is one reason that it remains so popular today.
There are several things that can be done to increase the reliability of the 1911 when various loads are used and machining tolerances can be minimized so that parts from several manufacturers do not need to interchange, as its needed in the military.
I would be cautious about a continued diet of heavy loads without a heavier recoil spring. There can be slide/frame battering if it is continued.
I am happy that your Ruger is so reliable.

[Char-Gar]

There is something about human nature that wants to make things far more complex than necessary. The original Browning design with the original springs will feed a very wide variety of loads. You have just learned that lesson.

Most of the things folks do to 1911 designs just inject problems into a good design. They are trying to solve theoretical problems and not real ones and create real ones in the process.

[mainiac]

First the 1911 was known for its reliability during military testing way back when. That is the main reason it was chosen over its competition and that is one reason that it remains so popular today.
There are several things that can be done to increase the reliability of the 1911 when various loads are used and machining tolerances can be minimized so that parts from several manufacturers do not need to interchange, as its needed in the military.
I would be cautious about a continued diet of heavy loads without a heavier recoil spring. There can be slide/frame battering if it is continued.
I am happy that your Ruger is so reliable.

Bare in mind,im a greenhorn when it comes to these bottom feeders,but i have to ask about your comment. I would think that this gun was made to shoot its whole life with hardball loads.And that stuff is pretty stout. Wouldnt they have put a spring in it to shoot these hardball loads? Just askin.....thanks,

[gray wolf]

A well tuned 1911 should put empty cases 6 to 8 feet away from the shooter to the rear right.
The angle of the ejected rounds is controlled by the angle on the face on the ejector.
erratic pattern of the ejected rounds is caused by an extractor
that is moving in it's tunnel (clocking ) not saying you have any of those problems.
But 16 to 18 feet is way to much slide inertia, even with ball ammo. Cases at your feet or hitting your head are from under-sprung pistol for the rounds your using. It sounds like your pushing the limits of your recoil spring in both directions. It's been said that Ruger uses an 18# recoil spring with the 1911, that should be 16# for normal shooting with an occasional +P round.
I would try a 14 or 15 # for those light loads and look into the 16-18 foot ejection.
I have never seen a 1911 through case that far. It's power of the loads verses proper spring weight. 23# main spring and 16# recoil spring. BUT--if your happy with it then all is fine.

The 1000 f.p.s. loads with 231,will throw the brass 16-18 feet away.
1000 FPS with a 200 grain bullet is way hot, that could be why your battering your frame, and I bet you are.

The 580 f.p.s. load was 2.8 grs of red dot,and the empties just barely fly out of the gun,and land pretty much on top of the head/right shoulder.
Your gun is over sprung for a load at that velocity, 600 FPS needs a 12# spring.

why dont this ruger need different springs to shoot these way different speed loads? Did i get lucky,or did ruger do there engineering,and it was built hassle free?
You didn't get lucky, and it does need or should have different springs, you just don't see it or don't know it.

but im kind of hoping that this gun will consistantly shoot groups of 1.5 inch@25 yards,
Inch and a half at 25 yards is a fin-nominal 1911, a decent one should do 1" for every 10 yards
for a 2.5" 25 yard group, if you can shoot 1" groups at 15 yards with consistency your a heck of a shooter. ( not off a bench ) 1.5 at 25 standing is something I don't see on a regular basis.
Sounds like you have one heck of a special pistol, best of the best with it.

[mainiac]

Guess i aint gonna fool with springs,,gun runs to well for me to stick my fingers in it,and frig things up!!

Greywolf,,rest assured my talk of shooting groups is rested.My offhand groups would never get bragged about in public!!!!

I have alot of experience with revolvers,and all my revolvers shoot 12 shot groups @ 25 yards 2 inches,or i dont keep them.And ive not gotton rid of many of them over the years.I have a feeling that this 1911 will shoot consistantly under 2 inches,,time will tell.

[jonp]

I shoot 200gr through mine as I have a 4inch barrel. 1000fps sounds awful hot for that load if the brass is kicking like that. If you are going to shoot this load your going to need a heavier spring. Rugers will take a lot of pounding but slide batter like that on a constant basis will lower the life span of any pistol. Some reason you want them that hot or are you just experimenting? I keep my target loads around 800fps.

This is short and to the point on springs: http://blog.wilsoncombat.com/1911/a-reliable-compact-1911-by-bill-wilson/
I know you have a full size 1911 but it does explain slide speed and its effects on the gun in easy to understand writing.

Changing springs is not hard. You can order them from Brownells and youtube is full of video's on how to do it.

[Awsar]

Springs matched to what you shoot will help your gun in the long run what may seem fine now may hurt it later.
definatly keep an eye on the bearing surfaces heavy loads will beat a gun up.

[MtGun44]

The H&G 68 clone, set up correctly and taper crimped is a flawless feeder and accurate, which is why
I always recommend it first. Folks new to the 1911 insist that only the RN will feed well and this is
just flat wrong in the 1911 platform for essentially all the modern guns. Only the old military guns
with the pure military throating will have this problem and a quick throating job will fix even these
few guns.

The 1000 fps load is starting to be a bit hot and banging your frame a bit. A stronger spring will
be a bit easier on the gun. NOT absolutely necessary to function in a well made gun, as you
have found, but matching the spring can make the ejection more consistent and avoid battering
the gun frame, only an issue with MANY, MANY thousands of rounds. Add a shock buff and
replace it as it cuts through and you will be OK, too. Note that shock buffs slightly shorten the
slide stroke, so be aware that there is a slight possibility of a problem, but it is very rare.

Bill

[Sax.45]

Another thing to consider about recoil springs is that the spring works both ways. To handle recoil when fired and to return into battery. the gun was basically made to function with a 16 pound recoil spring and a 23 pound main spring.

Using heavier recoil springs will suck up more recoil but also slam the slide forward into battery. That is where the damage to the gun can come from. The 1911 was designed to handle the recoil with a 16 pound spring. If a 1911 does not run smoothly with the designed spring weights the pistol has other problems. Using heavier recoil springs is just a band-aid to get it to function.

[pipehand]

Sax, that makes a whole bunch of sense. "For every action....etc". As far as keeping rounds on target fast, do you really want the slide oversprung? The forward motion of the slide really only needs to move fast enough to chamber a round.

In another post, 35 Remington suggested using a "short radius firing pin stop" instead of heavier springs. I'm thinking that its to use the mainspring force more effectively, without adding to forward slide battering. Once the slide brings the hammer to the rear, its cocked, and doesn't add to forward slide momentum.

[MtGun44]

Yes.

The small radius increases the leverage and makes the slide stay shut a bit longer,
so lower pressure at unlocking time, lower slide velocity on opening. Does nothing for
forward motion.

Bill

[jonp]

I disagree that the damage occurs when the slide goes forward. The primary cause of frame batter comes from useing loads too hot for the slide and spring to handle. If the load is too strong it will cause the violent rearward action to occur because the slide is moving too fast causing excess strain on the frame , ide stops, rails, etc. This can also cause ftf's as the round does not have enough time to fully chamber as the slide is moving too fast. I'd recommend changing a few springs and trying a mercury filled rod if he insists on using extremely hot loads on a regular basis. This is the main reason manu's caution against +p+ loads in their guns, imho.

[35remington]

Damage could indeed occur when the gun goes forward too fast and it's a different type of frame (and other parts of the gun) battering; here you're substituting less frame impact for more slide stop pin/barrel underlug impact. Remind yourself that the gun was designed to be impacted on the frame's VIS (vertical impact surface) where it's less able to resist those impacts are on the tiny barrel lug feet. The frame impact surface is large; the lug feet are not.

Colt forges their slide stop pins; perhaps an acknowledgement of the forces the pin sees when the pin arrests the travel of the barrel and slide.

The slide stop does not get involved in the rearward motion of the slide itself; it arrests the motion of the slide and barrel when the barrel's lug feet crash into the slide stop pin going forward. The rails are not involved either; they are merely a guiding surface. Keep in mind the forward motion of the slide is entirely dictated by the recoil spring, as this is what propels it forward. If there is not enough "time" for the round to fully chamber that's because the spring is propelling the slide forward too fast.

And furthermore, if there's not "time" for the round to chamber that's a bolt over base misfeed, which is not enough time for the round in the magazine to rise before the returning slide tries to pick it up. That occurs long before chambering. A too strong recoil spring does not help with this as it propels the slide forward faster.

Heavy springs are the wrong prescription for reducing slide velocity rearward.....when it can be done better another way, without the downsides of heavy springs. "Frame batter" is oversold......because the slide doesn't really hit the frame all that hard. Where guns usually fail is from a busted slide, and that occurs at firing, not on frame/slide impact. I've examined a lot of high round count 1911's in the NG armory what were "range beaters" that shot mil spec ball exclusively, and for many, many thousands of rounds, and none showed "frame battering."

The slide weighs about 34 to 36 times as much as the bullet, depending upon bullet weight. For a 230 grain bullet going 850 fps, slide velocity is about 17 mph. That's it, folks........you can swing it in your arm and whack the slide against the wall a lot faster than that. Positing that this is an enormous factor in gun longevity is mistaken. Leupold once measured the forces on a 1911's slide at peak were 500 G's for slide/frame impact, 500 G's for slide seating (stop after going forward) and a whopping 2000 G's at firing, when the initial movement of the gun (slight) on firing occurs. This is what's hardest on the gun, and the sharp corners of the slide near the breech provide stress risers for cracking.

Pressures at unlock for 1911's should be pretty much identical no matter what firing pin stop or recoil spring is used, as the gun does not and cannot unlock until the bullet is gone and the pressure is pretty much near zero. Stop or spring will not affect this.

What users should be much more interested in is reducing slide/frame impact not for longevity, which is truly a nonissue for most 45 ACP loads, or even more powerful loads, but for reliability, to prevent inertial misfeeding from the jarring slide/frame impact that tends to knock the feeding round loose from the proper feeding position in the magazine's feed lips. The guns tries to yank itself out from under the round waiting in the feed lips, which is held there only by spring tension and friction. Live round stovepipes, ejecting the round instead of feeding it, double feeding, and finding live rounds amongst your fired brass all are an indication this is happening and this accounts for a large percentage of misfeeds in a 1911.

Using a small radius stop, a seven shot flush fit magazine with a dimple on the follower and a strong magazine spring (Wolff +10% seven shot) are a "belt, suspenders, and clothespins" way of triple redundancy to ensure this does not happen. Redundancy makes the pistol more reliable and ensures that it feeds when things are not in balance, the loads are too hot, or some other factor is less than optimum.

[Sax.45]

35 renington, exellent post. I agree. The damage done is usually the slidestop being battered, and the feet of the barrel, they weren't designed to take the extra battering from heavier recoil springs. Damage to the slidestop is the least of your worries, the bigger problem is the slidestop holes in the frame get wallowed out ruining the frame. and damage to the barrel feet.

The pistol was also designed as a 5" gun. When you start playing with smaller barrel lengths it really throws a wrench into the works. It's all about the mass and legnth of the slide. Shorted barrel guns require heavier reciol springs that usually have to be replaced more often, and like you mentioned the mags also need heavier springs to keep up with the speed of the slide. The stars have to line up properly to get the smaller barrel guns to run properly. And yes, that dimple on the follower is there for a reason.

[rojkoh]

Ive only ever fooled around with this one 1911 ruger. Ive fired about a 1000 rounds threw it,working on loads. Since I went to the accurate #68 copy mold, the gun has fed flawless.

Ive shot loads from 580 f.p.s.,,to full screech loads that went over 1000f.p.s. This gun feeds them all. The 580 f.p.s. load was 2.8 grs of red dot,and the empties just barely fly out of the gun,and land pretty much on top of the head/right shoulder. The 1000 f.p.s. loads with 231,will throw the brass 16-18 feet away.

Ive read so much about guys having to change springs and change this and that,and my question is,,,,,why dont this ruger need different springs to shoot these way different speed loads? Did i get lucky,or did ruger do there engineering,and it was built hassle free?

Simple, depends on the way the pistol was made. Back in the early days of IPSC, we all used 70 series Colts and they got heavily modified. Due to the progression of shooting with 1911s over the years and the use of CnC machining, a fair amount of the current 1911s are superior to what they used to be.

But I got a classic 1911A1 at Xmas, and while I did touch the feed ramp to fix a problem, I'm shooting everything you have with an 18 lb spring (issue spring was 16 lbs).

If the pistol is tight, and depending on the way it was produced, there is a wide difference in what some people do vs what others do. Never ask me how many rounds of .45acp I've shot and I have friends that have shot more of it, 2 of which used to be instructors for Jeff Cooper. I typically use a 5" Gov't model (some are modified), but I've shot a lot of variations on the 1911 design, including the race guns. Love the compensated .38 super, but i'd never want to own one.

[rojkoh]

[QUOTE=Sax.45;2153184]35 renington, exellent post. I agree. The damage done is usually the slidestop being battered, and the feet of the barrel, they weren't designed to take the extra battering from heavier recoil springs.

Let's see now, I shot my first competition gun until it started to crack. I shot it with a 20lb Wolfe spring in it with the old IPSC hardball equivalent load. We guesimated that pistol went 100K rounds when it started to crack and never had a problem with the slide stop hole. That pistol was a 70 series Colt Gov't.

Damage to the slidestop is the least of your worries, the bigger problem is the slidestop holes in the frame get wallowed out ruining the frame. and damage to the barrel feet.


*IF* the pistol is made right (and that is an issue), this won't happen. I'd take a Les Baer and do it all day long without fear.


The pistol was also designed as a 5" gun. When you start playing with smaller barrel lengths it really throws a wrench into the works. It's all about the mass and legnth of the slide. Shorted barrel guns require heavier reciol springs that usually have to be replaced more often, and like you mentioned the mags also need heavier springs to keep up with the speed of the slide.

This depends on the ammo used in the shorter 1911 types. I've seen Colt OM's shot out.. worked just fine. But then we were only burning 2-3000 rounds a month. Since my last OM was getting old, I passed it onto a friend's kid for his off duty carry. Last time I talked him, the OM was still working fine.

[rojkoh]

try 231. We tried a lot of things back in the day. 231 always produced the best results out of a 1911.

Light load for practice: 4.7, Hardball equivalent: 5.8

Some of the folks have moved to titegroup, but this can be tricky depending on your press. 80% of all the 1911 owners I know, still use 231.

[rojkoh]

A well tuned 1911 should put empty cases 6 to 8 feet away from the shooter to the rear right.
The angle of the ejected rounds is controlled by the angle on the face on the ejector.
erratic pattern of the ejected rounds is caused by an extractor
that is moving in it's tunnel (clocking ) not saying you have any of those problems.
But 16 to 18 feet is way to much slide inertia, even with ball ammo. Cases at your feet or hitting your head are from under-sprung pistol for the rounds your using. It sounds like your pushing the limits of your recoil spring in both directions. It's been said that Ruger uses an 18# recoil spring with the 1911, that should be 16# for normal shooting with an occasional +P round.
I would try a 14 or 15 # for those light loads and look into the 16-18 foot ejection.
I have never seen a 1911 through case that far. It's power of the loads verses proper spring weight. 23# main spring and 16# recoil spring. BUT--if your happy with it then all is fine.

1000 FPS with a 200 grain bullet is way hot, that could be why your battering your frame, and I bet you are.

Your gun is over sprung for a load at that velocity, 600 FPS needs a 12# spring.

You didn't get lucky, and it does need or should have different springs, you just don't see it or don't know it.

Inch and a half at 25 yards is a fin-nominal 1911, a decent one should do 1" for every 10 yards
for a 2.5" 25 yard group, if you can shoot 1" groups at 15 yards with consistency your a heck of a shooter. ( not off a bench ) 1.5 at 25 standing is something I don't see on a regular basis.
Sounds like you have one heck of a special pistol, best of the best with it.


Try shooting IDPA. Always best to see if you can place your shots under pressure. It's why I loved IPSC in it's early days when Cooper was still involved. I've watched some of the current 3 gun matches and get a great laugh out of them. We call them "Spray and pray".

[35remington]

The design is pretty durable....which means that all kinds of wrong spring strengths can be used and the gun can still come up with a respectable round count as far as longevity. What's being discussed is optimum in terms of the best way to get there from here. I've already discussed how frame battering is oversold, the real reason not to overspring your 1911, and the best way to get to where you're going with the least amount of downside.

It's mostly about putting the odds on your side by going to JMB's original design specs. A heavy spring is not needed nearly as much as is thought, and with JMB's original stop installed really not at all. Even with IPSC "major" loads when the PF was way up there instead of the wimpy levels found now.

The shorter you go with a 1911, the greater the odds it will malfunction. That's pretty much a given. Not saying it will......just that over a given number of guns, more likely to. Rack the slide to the limit of its travel and it's easy to see why looking down into the ejection port.

[rojkoh]

[QUOTE=gray wolf;2146876]A well tuned 1911 should put empty cases 6 to 8 feet away from the shooter to the rear right.
The angle of the ejected rounds is controlled by the angle on the face on the ejector.

Simple issue, put an extended (or NM as some people call them) ejector in the pistol.

erratic pattern of the ejected rounds is caused by an extractor

Change extractors to a Wilson. They're reliable.

[jonp]

Well, I started thinking on this question of "frame batter" after reading the excellent post by 35Rem so went to another forum specializing on 1911's and posted the question. Started a debate on this and the general consensus so far is that springs do indeed help and more force resulting in a premature failure of the firearm would occur from the rearward motion of the slide than the forward movement back into battery.

I am following the comments with interest because "common knowledge" on this seems to be another instance of "hey, everyone knows....." and not actual testing.
If someone here knows of any links to articles where a manu actually tested this out and compared accelerated wear of a firearm due to high pressure loads vs regular loadings please post so I can read them.

None of this probably would occur until the shooter has run far more rounds through a 1911 than an actual owner would over several lifetimes and be more of a "cover our butts in case of a lawsuit" thing.

[35remington]

It would be helpful to remind oneself that the slide isn't going that fast when it strikes the frame, and that the frame is indeed specifically designed to be struck by the slide. I've already detailed my experience in examining NG range beaters that never had a shok buff, never had their springs changed, and shot ball exclusively to very high round counts. All of these had standard stops.

None showed "frame battering."

If you're deriving a consensus, it's important to determine whether that consensus is from knowledgeable people or ones simply formulating an opinion. IPSC shooters run "undersprung" 1911's all the time to very high round counts without premature frame failure to change how the gun behaves when fired. The lighter sprung gun, to the tune of 2 to 4 lbs. under normal "recommended" spring rates, is to make the gun bounce less on return to battery, which the gamers feel slows their accurate followup shot.

[jonp]

It would be helpful to remind oneself that the slide isn't going that fast when it strikes the frame, and that the frame is indeed specifically designed to be struck by the slide. I've already detailed my experience in examining NG range beaters that never had a shok buff, never had their springs changed, and shot ball exclusively to very high round counts. All of these had standard stops.

None showed "frame battering."

If you're deriving a consensus, it's important to determine whether that consensus is from knowledgeable people or ones simply formulating an opinion. IPSC shooters run "undersprung" 1911's all the time to very high round counts without premature frame failure to change how the gun behaves when fired. The lighter sprung gun, to the tune of 2 to 4 lbs. under normal "recommended" spring rates, is to make the gun bounce less on return to battery, which the gamers feel slows their accurate followup shot.
Indeed, 35Rem. That is why I asked for actual testing to prove or disprove this point.

[KYCaster]

Try shooting IDPA. Always best to see if you can place your shots under pressure. It's why I loved IPSC in it's early days when Cooper was still involved. I've watched some of the current 3 gun matches and get a great laugh out of them. We call them "Spray and pray".


Cooper held IPSC back as long as he could, but it grew in spite of his best efforts.

Some of the "spray and pray" 3 gunners actually hit their intended target on occasion. You can't miss fast enough to win.

What gives me a chuckle is the 5,000 round torture tests the gun rags are fond of. There are many competition shooters who go through 10 times that amount in a year and any failure will cost time, points and over all place in the match.....not acceptable!

Jerry