Can anyone recommend a zippy 148gr .38 WC load?

[John in WI]

A while back I cast up some 148gr WCs with a Lee mould. I made them of water dropped WW, and was hoping to come up with something along the lines of the BB hard-cast WC.

I was reading through some references, and the maximum load I found was 5gr Unique at a speed a little under 1000fps. This would put it at ~ the Buffalo Bore speed, but at +P pressures.

It sounded like a good idea, but I tested a handful today and ended up with a ton of unburned powder.

Can anyone recommend a fairly hot 148gr .38WC load? I'd be happy with something above 900fps. Also, what effect does it have if you seat the boolit only to the grease groove instead of the crimp groove (thereby increasing the volume inside the shell)? Should that increase or decrease the pressure of the load? I was thinking about loading them that way, as I'm guessing it would make loading them from speed loaders slightly easier.

Thanks for any thoughts! I'm be shooting it out +P Smith, so it's a safe and solidly built weapon. Still, I don't want to load anything that's going to unnecessarily beat on anything.

[dbosman]

Bullseye is the classic WC powder. W231 would be my 2nd choice.
As to volume, take a look at load data for .357 mag using 148g WCs.
For speed loaders, wouldn't a flat point round nose load easier?

[dragon813gt]

Why push wadcutters so fast? Just wondering because there are better bullet profiles for the higher velocities. I use W231 for all my non magnum loads. I'm sure there is a load w/ it in one of the manuals.

[John in WI]

I found this in the Speer manual:
148 gr BB-WC Bullseye 4.5 gr 933 fps 3.9 gr 813 fps (6" barrel).
That sounds like the load I'm looking for--maybe start at 4gr Bullseye and see how they do out of my 4". I realize that WCs have the aerodynamics of a brick and that they aren't really made to be driven at 1000fps. The reason I wanted to make some is that I was going to buy the Buffalo Bores for carry, but they cost plenty--too much for the amount of practice I like to do. I was hoping to get something with similar recoil, ballistics, shape (for practice with speed loaders)....

If I could get a WC to slug through 4 layers of denim and still make it through a jug of water, I would call that "good enough" for this application (at social distances).

[jmort]

4.5 grains of Unique

[MtGun44]

5 gr of Unique. This is OK with 158 gr, so fine with lower wt boolit.

Bill

[35remington]

As long as the above load has the same seating depth as a 158 SWC. Higher velocity WC loads should always replicate SWC seating depth so as to obtain more velocity for moderate pressures. Traditionally deep seated WC's should not be used for HV loads in 38.

This load should not leave much unburned powder. It burns decently clean for me. Unique will be superior to Bullseye in the HV role.

4 layer of denim and one jug would be sub par penetration. Avoid any load that does this poorly.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I've used from 4.0-4.5 of 231 and 3.5 of BE with DEWCs or other solid base WCs with pretty good success. The 3.5 BE load was a recommendation of Ed Harris and is part of the thread elsewhere about 75K wadcutters in a M-27 (great read). With the four denim layer and any of the above listed loads, you'll need four or more gallon jugs of water to collect one of these fired boolits. They don't lack penetration!

[John in WI]

Thanks for the answers. I just pulled the one-jug test out of the air. I seem to remember that a very rough estimate of water jugs : ballistics gel was 3 1gallon jugs ~ 12" gel. I don't know what that's worth--gel is a "simulant" for soft tissue, and water I guess is a simulant for gel in this case?

I guess the real question was for a load that would approximate the BB wadcutter for target practice, or in a pinch (or when I get to the point where I trust me reloads as much as good quality commercial).

I have a bunch of the WCs cast from water dropped WW which would help the penetration too. But now I'm sort of wondering if the WC already has ample penetration in this case (say the above loads exceed the FBI minimum). Maybe a smarter way to go is with a moderate WC cast soft, and hope for a little expansion? (Probably something around .40 wouldn't be out of the question). I honestly don't know the answers--just kind of fishing for thoughts that I can work on if spring ever arrives.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnVT/Guns/Sizing015.jpg

[gwpercle]

Try 4.3 grs. of Red Dot, 148 gr. cast wadcutter, 38 special. Burns cleaner than Unique, Lyman manual lists it @ 960 fps.

[BCRider]

I found this in the Speer manual:
148 gr BB-WC Bullseye 4.5 gr 933 fps 3.9 gr 813 fps (6" barrel)......

The numbers you are seeing in the Speer book seem pretty nasty. My Lyman 49th edition shows a 150gm Linotype solid wadcutter load for BE of 3.5gns max giving 925fps and 16,400 CUP for max pressure. That max pressure being the highest listed. I'd suggest that bumping the load up to 4.5gns of BE would generate near Magnum pressures.

Tightgroup, a slightly slower powder, in the same Lyman book shows a max load of 3.5gns for 942fps and max pressure of 16,000.

Jmortimer's Unique load sounds not bad either. Again my Lyman book lists the max load for Unique at 4.2gns which gives 894fps and only14,300CUP. So upping it to 4.5 would/should still keep you to around the 16,000 to 16,400 CUP range of max pressure and give a nice solid low to mid 9's velocity.

[MtGun44]

GOOD POINT. I do not normally seat WCs flush, but if you do, reduce charge for normal
boolits due to smaller combustion chamber.

Bill

[35remington]

To replicate the seating depth of the Lee TL 158 SWC pictured in post 10, seating depth of the WC bullet should be about the second groove, not the first.

This maximizes the WC bullet's velocity at minimal pressure with suitable (158 SWC equivalent) charges, which is the whole point of HV wadcutter loads. Reasonable case grip on the bullet is still present to help prevent the bullet from moving forward on recoil.

[John in WI]

Thanks for all the info. I like the Red Dot load and think I will try that one. Something in the mid-900s will be all I need out of the load. Especially with these hard cast boolits. I really appreciate all the sage advice. I'm getting to be a fairly competent lead scrounger and caster, but still a newbie reloader. And it makes me a little nervous how much variation there is between manuals. One says don't exceed 3.5gr, the next says 5.1gr.

[35remington]

There's no way in heck I'd use 5.1 grains Red Dot with any wadcutter load, even those seated out, especially given Red Dot usually outruns Bullseye with the same charge weight. Mid 900's is reasonable in a 4 inch and should approximate lower end +P. If in a two inch that's pretty hot and I wouldn't go that fast. Suggest Unique instead in up to 5.2 grain charges with a 148. Chrono and go from there.

You won't get 950 from a 2 inch with that charge. More like 875 to near 900. This should far exceed your penetration standard and give good effect. I'd rate it as far superior to .380 loads, and that's a good place to be.

[Dale53]

I would like to caution all that running Hollow Base wadcutters at "high speed" is fraught with danger. I have personally witnessed the barrels of three fine handguns bulged when the skirt separated (too much powder and velocity for the design), lodged in the barrel (with "point" printing on the target) and bulged the barrel on the next shot.

I suggest the use of solid base wadcutters (I cast my own - either H&G #50 BB from an original H&G four cavity mold or an H&G #251 dbl ended W/c form an original six cavity mold). Ed Harris has written extensively on this here;

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=1383&forum_id=4

For serious loads I have settled on Ed's load of 3.5 grs of Bullseye with the first band seated out of the case.

FWIW
Dale53

[9.3X62AL]

Lotta good advice above.

I suspect that loading a solid-based wadcutter "long" should lower pressures with a given powder weight compared to flush-seating, all other factors being equal.

I'm confused about the original poster's experience with Unique--its cruddy residue after firing. At the likely pressures given that 5.0 grain charge weight behind a 148 grain-class boolit, it shouldn't produce much bore trash. It hasn't for me, anyway--and that is over 30+ years and at least two formulations by Hercules and now Alliant.

I'm not fond of wadcutters seated in any manner for use with speedloaders. That said, old-school PPC shooters handled them deftly and quickly, so the trick can be learned. SWC or (better) round flatnoses really help feeding chambers with speedloaders for us mere mortals, though. Like me, for example. :)

[LAH]

Allow me to be a little different. Try about 11 grains of 2400 with a 148 grain bullet nose wadcutter.

[9.3X62AL]

Allow me to be a little different. Try about 11 grains of 2400 with a 148 grain bullet nose wadcutter.

THAT would be in Elmer Keith's toll-free dialing area, methinks. ESPECIALLY in 38 Special casings.

[35remington]

11 grains 2400 would be pretty darn stiff.....past Plus P.

I couldn't understand the loading with 5 grains Unique having "a ton of unburned powder" either as that's pretty much my standard loading of 158's as a bottom end plus P, and also with the seated out 148 WC. Seemed very reasonably clean to me, so I have to wonder if something isn't quite right with the reloading dies the OP is using.

I have barely any unburned powder at all, quite frankly.

[LAH]

11 grains of 2400 is past +P with a 148? I use 10.5 grains with the 170 Keith [Lyman Load] in my K frames. All these are in 38 cases.

[DLCTEX]

May I suggest a different tack for what you want to accomplish. Try the Lee 358-158 RF boolit over 4.6 gr 231, This will get you 886 fps from a 4' barrel, slightly less from a 2' with a shape more speed loader friendly. This is not even +p territory, according to my Lyman's Third Edition. With the BB removed mine is dropping 165 gr, without lube, a little more bang for the buck.

[35remington]

If the Speer #8 or Lyman 45th is your reloading bible, then maybe the info that 11 grains 2400 is past plus P with a 148 WC is news to you. Recent printed data is much milder in that regard. Some very recent data in the rags, replete with chronographed numbers, suggests the 158/170/11.0 2400 level is "38-44" territory.

[LAH]

If the Speer #8 or Lyman 45th is your reloading bible, then maybe the info that 11 grains 2400 is past plus P with a 148 WC is news to you. Recent printed data is much milder in that regard. Some very recent data in the rags, replete with chronographed numbers, suggests the 158/170/11.0 2400 level is "38-44" territory.

Guess that's it. I use a Lyman 43 manual a lot but don't take everything to heart. As a note the 43 manual list the Lyman 358495 with a starting load of 2400 @ 9 grains & a max. of 13.5 for 1380 fps. And again using 38 brass. So the old manuals can be a little wild. I used the 9 grain load in a Model 14, 8 3/8" & found it to shoot very, very tight. This is what put me on 2400 for WC's with a little thump but never felt the need to push things to 13.5 grains. Even a hillbilly doesn't go there.

[35remington]

I have Lyman manuals 43-49 inclusive, and the Speer #8, and some of those loads are well into .357 territory, velocitywise.

Those were, indeed, the small frame and aluminum frame loosening loads, big time. Today's Plus P loads, especially factory, don't seem very Plus P, especially by comparison. If you peruse some of Brian Pearce's data in Handloader it is evident he interprets Plus P as higher pressure than many of the latest manuals do, giving a higher figure than other sources. Who is right? I dunno.....whoever gets what he wants while still making the gun last.

I do know a Ruger LCR with a 158 at 1000 fps would sting a little. That's where he goes. Prudent? I dunno. For occasional use I suppose no one could have that much trouble with it. Some of the Plus P stuff, factory or handload, doesn't seem all that hot as I mentioned.

I have a little five shot Rossi, supposedly not rated for Plus P, that has held up to a fair amount of shooting, between one and two thousand rounds, of what I earlier declared "low end Plus P" of a 158 SWC at a chronographed 850-860 fps with 5.0 grains Unique. It locks up tight as a drum, and I'd guess the steel in it may not be as hard as some of the later J frame Smiths......certainly not as hard as the Plus P rated Smith 38's made today.

So "Plus P" is relative. I have no doubt your bigger K frame takes your loads as they did it in the past and nobody blew themselves up.

Truly, we've wimpified the .38 to a large degree. Maybe that's for the better; I don't know. But, certainly the "revolver loosening" abilities of today's Plus P loads, factory or recent handloading data, aren't what they used to be. Most of my shooting in that Rossi isn't Plus P nor am I going out of my way to find out how long, or short, it will last. But I'll probably shoot a lot more of the 5.0 Unique/158 prescription through it and don't bet me I'll wear it out anytime soon as I'll take that bet.

[9.3X62AL]

The 38 Special is far from being the only cartridge to be wimpified by the ammo makers or SAAMI. All of the mainstream Magnums (357, 41, and 44) have had their product mean pressures dialed back from 42K PSI to 36K PSI. The 9mm--esp. the 147 JHP sub-sonic load--is often a 25% down-load from safe maximums. I don't generally advocate for the intrepid end of the reloading hobby, but if you have a modern platform in good order with reserve strength like a large-frame Blackhawk or S&W L-frame, you are able to carefully explore the upper end of the envelope with a margin of safety.

[WRideout]

My standard load for a Mod 19 smith, 6" in 38 Spl is a 35891 solid base WC, cast from straight WW, stoked by 3.8 gr Red Dot, seated flush. WW SP primer. I suppose it could be loaded hotter, but I can't see any advantage to it, and this load is plenty accurate for me. Don't know the velocity on this one, but it should be in the 8-900 FPS range.
Wayne

[rintinglen]

A load that I shot extensively back in the day was a 358-432 148 grainer WC over 4.0 grains of Red Dot. Velocities ran in the 900 fps area and it killed the only coyote I ever shot with a revolver DRT. The 358-342 was designed with a crimp groove so that the nose of the boolit extended about a quarter of an inch from the brass when crimped in said groove. I fired something in excess of 8 lbs worth of RED Dot under these boolits in the late 70's and early 80's--somewhere around 14,000 of them, if I did the math right.

[9.3X62AL]

OK, THAT does it. Glen's reference to Lyman #358432 has prompted me to FINALLY get my mould of this same design out of the cabinet and cast some. At the same time, I'll pour some of its 32 caliber counterpart #313492. It has been a long darn time since I fired any revolver wadcutters, and I have questions about their behavior at extended ranges (60 yards+). I recall that both designs shot wonderfully when I was firing them with frequency, but after hearing the SWC Siren Song these moulds and their castings fell into disuse. Gotta fix that.