Do cast boolits need lub grooves?

[Boogieman]

I'm thinking of making a smooth sided mold like a paper patch mold . lubing with a tumble lub. This would be for a handgun cal.800-1400 FPS. Has anyone tried this and did it work?

[I'll Make Mine]

The ribs on a tumble lube mold aren't there primarily to take the lube; they're to allow sizing and reduce the pressure required to engrave the rifling. Slicks, as the paper patchers call them, don't even work that well in paper patch (they don't hold the patch well enough, leading to leading at lower velocity than would be the case when things work as they should).

Many of the old Hornady swaged bullets had a cylindrical body with knurling, but those were very soft alloy (anywhere from pure lead to about like the 1.5% antimony used in current .22 LR rounds), meaning they'd engrave easily even without reliefs for metal to flow into -- and, of course, they were already accurately sized in the swaging process. If you could make your mold drop exactly at the desired size, and cast soft enough, it might work -- but it's hardly any more effort to put lube grooves in with the correct size driving bands, compared to boring an accurately sized slick mold.

[Pilgrim]

I'd think an undersized smooth boolit for paper patching is a different critter from a cast boolit for shooting with lube. The LEE tumble lube boolits all have itty bitty lube grooves on them. I don't know for a fact, but displaced lead has gotta go someplace IMO. I'd think displaced lead prolly winds up in the lube grooves, but again, I don't know this to be a fact. Never retrieved a boolit to look for displaced lead. Smooth boolits sized at groove or +.001 or .002 might be interesting, but where does the displaced lead (from the lands) go?

[HARRYMPOPE]

Yes I had a smooth 148 grain 38 I shot like that. Worked just fine at 700 feet per second.

[Boogieman]

Where does the displaced metal in a jacketed bullet go The only jacketed bullets I've seen with grooves are Barnes solid coppers

[geargnasher]

Low-velocity, low pressure loads work fine with slicks. Black powder with soft alloy and the correct amount of undersize works perfectly. Lots of ways to skin the cat. What DOESN'T work, for me and a few others who've tested it, is full-house bottlenecked rifle loads with patched slicks. For that, one needs shallow grooves and to wet-patch so the paper shrinks tightly into them and stays put under all the mighty forces in the gun until it's time to go bye-bye at the muzzle.

In a low-pressure revolver, patching slicks does work if the final patched diameter is throat size, but it's a lot of work for something easily done with traditionally lubed, grease-groove boolits or even tumble lube like liquid Alox or 45/45/10. If you have a "slick" mould that's throat sized, or have made your own push-out style with a drill bit or similar, you can roll the casting between two coarse files to knurl them and lube them with a tumble lube-type coating.

Gear

[Pilgrim]

Can't answer your question! The grooves in the Barnes bullets were put there to reduce bullet friction that was a problem with the original Barnes monolithics. I've not seen any discussion on the subject, but pondering on it, I suspect that j***ed bullets are a bit undersize to begin with. That plus square bottom grooves gives someplace for some of the displaced metal to go. JMO

[runfiverun]

it goes to the base.
i'm working on some super mini lube groove type boolits for the 38.
I have them all shaped and made I just haven't decided on the lube just yet.
i'm debating just a wipe of lanolin and castor oil mix, or doing a full t/l type lube.
or just filling the super mini grooves with normal lube.
I have done a mini lube groove in a 44 mag, so I know small amounts of lube will work.
it's just finding out how little and how slick does it have to be to work.

[geargnasher]

Poly floor wax?

Gear

[303Guy]

I have fired a few smooth sided boolits, knurled by rolling between two files then hot dipping in my own lube concoction. That's in rifles. I'm not sure about the hot dipping lube though - it doesn't have the strength to remain in place under normal handling conditions and just today I've had it fail on just one shot but that was a fairly stiff load for cast (mild for rifle). But who knows whether a lube grooved boolit might have done the same? Soon I'll switch to a carnauba based lube mix.

[Boogieman]

I'm just fishing for ideas . a smooth side mold is easy to make & I've read of them being used unlubed with a grease wad in rifles .I wouldn't want put a greasewad in a handgun load . thought maybe tumbling in alox or alox-jpw would work. Thanks for your input. If I try this I'll post the results

[waksupi]

Trying to put a semi-honest business man out of the loob groove business. Disgusting.

:kidding:

[geargnasher]

Yeah, but you hoarded them all and now there's a shortage, and you want gouger's prices for them now! A fella's gotta invent options! :kidding:

Gear

[runfiveslittlegirl]

i still have a few of the trial shipment.
but they are for the 375.
i even washed some in extra hot water trying to shrink them.
don't do that, i couldn't find them in the machine afterwards.

[HARRYMPOPE]

this product works great on "smoothies" and all other bullet styles.If using Triple Seven with cast bullets in muzzleloaders it also does the trick.Use it like Lee tumble lube.I have used it on 22's up to about 2200 as well.
This was a Fred Sinclair idea.

http://www.bassstringsonline.com/Planet-Waves-Step-2-PROTECT--Liquid-Carnauba-Wax-Protectant-and-Sealer_p_740.html

[dromia]

I use a smooth, heeled boolit in my 310 Cadet from a mould Tom at Accurate made for me based on a Lee GB design we had on here a few years ago, this is the boolit here: http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=32-120C-D.png

I lube it with heavily diluted Xlox 50/50 with white spirit and have shot it with good accuracy and no leading up to 1300 fps, alloy is range scrap typically 10-12 BHN.

[Shiloh]

Either Hornady or Speer make them with a cross hatch and dry lube arrangement.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/382348/hornady-bullets-38-caliber-358-diameter-158-grain-lead-semi-wadcutter-box-of-300

Shiloh

[303Guy]

To make a mold the slick is going to be the simplest unless you can make a split mold in which case it might be a better option to make a micro lube groove boolit. Knurling the boolit with a file is easy.

[kartooo]

it goes to the base.
i'm working on some super mini lube groove type boolits for the 38.
I have them all shaped and made I just haven't decided on the lube just yet.
i'm debating just a wipe of lanolin and castor oil mix, or doing a full t/l type lube.
or just filling the super mini grooves with normal lube.

castor oil, reminds of my control line airplane days. good stuff, heat just makes it get better.
don't lick your fingers !! it's one heck of a laxitive...
the early pilots in open cockpits with exposed rockers had some serious problems if they ingested any !!
my Grandfather had some good stories

[303Guy]

But castor oil builds up does it not?

[kartooo]

But castor oil builds up does it not?

on the ouside of my C/L planes it left a gummy mess if left alone for a while would get kinda hard.
inside the engine on top of the piston & head would leve a caked on residue.
on the outside of the head and muffler i would get a hard gummy residue.
as far as a boolit lube i never tried it. in theory it would work well if just a thin layer coated the barrel.
if not cleaned over time i believe it would build up and effect accuracy.
a selling point was to put a drop of engine oil in a hot frying pan and watch it smoke and evaporate.
the castor would just get gummy and act as a better lube. comes from the castor bean.
with a control line airplane there was no throttle. if you had a lean run it flew until the 3oz tank ran out.
the castor would save your engine from destruction !!

[runfiverun]

castor was also used in 2 stroke oil forever and a day.
you probably remember the smell, just didn't know what it was back then.
it's also the lubricant used in felix lube, it has been polymerized in that situation however.
I don't know how much would actually be used in the mix, because I know the lanolin mix would be used super sparingly.
it's already made in a 2 parts lanolin to one part castor mix so the minimum amount used would probably take forever to build anything up.

[dakotashooter2]

Keep in mind that jackets on bullets are harder than lead. They don't need as much bearing depth to get a good grip on the rifling and as such can allow for a smaller size diameter than a lead bullet might. A shallow bite on the rifling by a lead bullet can result in stripping and cause leading and inaccuracy. Lead bullets are grooved to allow maximim bite on the rifling but reduce friction/pressure.

[RoyEllis]

But castor oil builds up does it not?

Don't know about in gun barrels, but if you're drinking it...it builds up til the purge!:lol:

[geargnasher]

Don't know about in gun barrels, but if you're drinking it...it builds up til the purge!:lol:

Interestingly, it does exactly that in rifle barrels too if you use too much in the lube.

Gear

[btroj]

Gear, drink some and let us know how your group is. We can then discuss what wax to add for next time.
Wait, this is a perfect place to add some PEG! It would help too!

[runfiverun]

hmm I have seen capsules made from b-wax.
now if I filled one with castor oil.
and seated it in just a primed 38 case I could maybe use it to shoot the ermm hmm **** outta something.

[kartooo]

hmm I have seen capsules made from b-wax.
now if I filled one with castor oil.
and seated it in just a primed 38 case I could maybe use it to shoot the ermm hmm **** outta something.

:D :D LOL
you made me spit out some root beer on the keyboard....

[303Guy]

In my lube I use STP (or other) smoke stopper as the 'oil' and paraffin wax as a 'hardener' to make it meltable and alox or bees wax as a 'softener' to make it sticky and less brittle. I needed a lube that could be melted to apply and sets to act as a 'glue'. I did try castor oil but it doesn't mix with paraffin wax.

I still use my 'waxy-lube' on j-words in my rust damaged but otherwise good two-groove. I dip the chamfered boolit base in the lube and let it set. This keeps the bore lubed and the insides of the moderator coated to it won't rust. It never copper foul's so it must work. It does leave lube in the bore after each shot, probably helped by the rust texturing. I originally made and used this lube for my hornet as a bullet seating 'glue'. I would seat a paper hand towel up in the neck then the bullet into that then dip the bullet up to the neck in the hot lube and let it soak into the cup then wipe off the excess. This glued the bullet in pretty well. It didn't work with the 303 though. Not strong enough.

Anyway, I was applying the lube to the base of the bullet which was coating the bore. This system might just work with cast if the boolit has a rebate or base chamfer, providing the lube is of sufficient quality. And it it is strong enough when hard, it might also hold the boolit in a loose neck. I'm hoping to find some carnauba and bees wax to try a new lube for that purpose.

I'm not sure there's anything wrong with STP as the oil but castor oil sure is slick stuff. I knew about castor oil building up on model engines but there never was really a problem in the engine itself, just the 'burned' stuff out the exhaust that would smear down the exhaust side of the plane. It was sticky and slippery and hard to get off - that's from observing my brother's planes, I only had a Baby Bee - but I don't recall it drying. It seemed to be a damn good lubricant and made two-stroke buzz bikes smell pretty cool - it was added for the smell.

[geargnasher]

Gear, drink some and let us know how your group is. We can then discuss what wax to add for next time.
Wait, this is a perfect place to add some PEG! It would help too!

Should I do some jettison testing too, say at 2-foot range? Are you talking about loading from the breech or muzzle end here?

Gear

[btroj]

:evil::evil:Hey, I am not in a position to tell you whether to muzzle load or breech seat.
I really doubt lube jettison would be an issue.
A TP wad may well be needed. And the lube star?

Don't tell Ben, he will just post photos......

I think I used the appropriate sarcasm smiley