Oh boy, 9mm OAL issue.

[BBQJOE]

Ok, here we go...
Working left to right. This is a lee 124 gr TC bullet designated for 9mm/.38
#1 is right about where I normally load a 115gr FMJ 1.12 (about what Lyman says)
#2 is where I think the 124 cast bullet looks about right, (1.075)
#3 is where Lee says it should be (1.15). No info for 9mm 1246579965800gr cast bullet in Lyman. Of course this one looks stupid as hell.

Do you think #2 will cause problems?
It's sitting on 5gr unique. Lee calls for 5.0-5.3gr
Maybe this is just flat out the wrong bullet for the 9mm?

What say you?

[Case Stuffer]

I am using the same Lee 124 gr TC COL 1.065" over 5.7 grains of Hogdon HS-6. I have also used it over 4.8 grains of WW-231 however it was a bit warmer than I liked so droped down to 4.4.

Federal SP primers are soft and I use them during load development and look for flatened primers then back off close to 10% and then go to whatever primers are available these days. Currently I am using CCI SR Magnum primers. I know some will say that with Magnum primers the powder charge should be reduced even more and I am not trying to advise anyone on how to reload just stating what has worked for me.

SA XD 9MM Sub Compact.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

did you see if they will feed put a few in your magazine with no primer or powder
if they chamber if so shoot them

[BBQJOE]

Thanks for the responses. They seem to chamber ok. Maybe I was just confused as to min/max OAL.
The true test of course is to go bark a few into a berm.
The visuals really threw me.

Thanks again.

Joe

[GabbyM]

#2 looks close to right. #3 is way to long for any 9m chamber. It's not COL it's how much grove diameter bullet is ahead of the case mouth.
Remove your barrel then use it as a gage to drop loaded rounds into. Your bullet shoulder will bump the rifling. If the round stops before going flush or past the barrel hood it's to long. Simple.

[BBQJOE]

#2 looks close to right. #3 is way to long for any 9m chamber. It's not COL it's how much grove diameter bullet is ahead of the case mouth.
Remove your barrel then use it as a gage to drop loaded rounds into. Your bullet shoulder will bump the rifling. If the round stops before going flush or past the barrel hood it's to long. Simple.
It passes that no problem. I was more concerned with possibly an over pressure result.

[Mohavedog]

The issue of oal for 9mm using the lee TC boolit is fresh in my mind currently. I just worked up my first load with the same boolit except I used a conventional lube groove version. I was loading for a new m&p shield, and with my pistol I had to make the oal 1.054" before the round would chamber correctly. I tested functioning without firing then went out to shoot yesterday. I only loaded up 50 rounds until I was sure they would work right. My load was 4.0gr of Bullseye. I couldn't be more pleased with the results as the pistol functioned perfectly and the load was about what I like, not too hot or too mild.

[runfiverun]

the books did NOT use a lee boolit to set their oal.
if they by some act of god did use a LEE boolit, I can assure you they did NOT use it in YOUR gun.
in fact i'd lay money out that they did not use your gun for the pressure testing either.

every gun is a wild cat treat as such.

[Boolseye]

BBQ Joe,
I have spent a lot of time with that boolit. I prefer to leave a lube groove showing–OAL 1.10, +/-.
I also found I needed to expand the cases with a .38/.357 expander. They would tumble quite a bit from being
case-swaged before I learned that. As for loads, I liked 4.2 gr. Unique, 3.5 gr. BE, and early on I loaded them with #7 and #5, both of which worked well (#5 around 5 grains, #7 around 7 grains).
All of these loads are mild-moderate.

[Case Stuffer]

I prefer to leave a lube groove showing–OAL 1.01, +/-.

That looks more like 1.100 than 1.01. Mine are 1.065 with no lube grove showing.

[Bullwolf]

Your example #2 looks about right to me. For comparison here's 2 of my 9mm loadings.

I use the Lee TL356-124-2R (124 grain Round Nose) sized to .358 for 9mm. I load this boolit behind 5.2 grains of Unique, and use a cartridge Overall All Length (OAL) of 1.10 to get it to chamber and feed reliably in my 9mm's. Boolits cast from this mould weigh closer to 115 grains, rather than 124 grains when cast using my alloy.

I do not currently own a Lee TC 9mm mould.

However I do use a Lyman 356402 (120 grain TC) for a 9mm TC boolit. I load these with 5.2 grains of Unique, sized to .358, and I use an OAL of 1.15 with the Truncated Cone (TC) Lyman boolits. They weigh around 117 grains, when cast from my default alloy.



- Bullwolf

[Boolseye]

That looks more like 1.100 than 1.01
thanks. corrected.

[BBQJOE]

Went out to try some of these over 5.0 unique this morning.
Good god what a mess.
I tried 1.065. I didn't realize that seating the bullet that deep caused the powder to expand the case. A couple shot ok, then I had a primer FTF, and I couldn't get the slide to come back because the case was seriously jammed into the barrel. I had to work at it awhile to get the slide open.
Serious failure to pay attention.
I have since decided to get the TL356-124-2R mold, and use the TC boolits for my wife's 38.

Live and learn......

[GabbyM]

Are you sure it was the case that was stuck and not the bullet front band?

A big issue with 9x19mm is different cases by brand are all over the place in capacity. Most of the EU cases should be just tossed out.

If you did have a case stick. I'd place my bet on boolit being seated crooked. Without a Lyman M die to expand your necks the TC style boolits don't work well in my experience. Others that have no issue must have cases with a thinner wall.

[BBQJOE]

Are you sure it was the case that was stuck and not the bullet front band?

A big issue with 9x19mm is different cases by brand are all over the place in capacity. Most of the EU cases should be just tossed out.

If you did have a case stick. I'd place my bet on boolit being seated crooked. Without a Lyman M die to expand your necks the TC style boolits don't work well in my experience. Others that have no issue must have cases with a thinner wall.
No. My mistake was in making up a dummy round or two and they chambered fine.
I forgot to plunk a few after loading with powder.
I took the left over rounds, and well, you've probably never seen a worse plunk test in your life.

[GabbyM]

I can't imagine powder being compressed enough to bulge a 9mm case. 9mm's are seriously stiff cases. Didn't by chance run into some that had the infamous Glock bulge?

[BBQJOE]

I can't imagine powder being compressed enough to bulge a 9mm case. 9mm's are seriously stiff cases. Didn't by chance run into some that had the infamous Glock bulge?
I've been going over this all morning. These were new cases (never fired)
For some reason the end of the case right at the bullet was measuring .382 as compared to previous rounds measuring around .357.
I spent time further checking the loads that didn't pass the plunk. The cases aren't bulged. These bullets were all sized .357 but came out closer to .355.
My head hurts.

[fecmech]

The Lee bullet 120TC and Lyman 356402 do NOT have interchangeable oal's as the Lyman bullet has a longer thinner nose. The Lyman is approx .625 long (with an oal of 1.11") and the Lee (with lube groove) is approx .565". They both have the same approx bearing length so if you subtract .060" from the Lyman oal you will have the same amount of bullet in the case (and case capacity) as the Lyman bullet. The Lee TL bullet is approx.580" long so it's oal would be approx .045" less than the Lyman. There is no use in agonizing over oal's unless you are using the exact same bullet and most 9mm data for 120-125 gr bullets use RN bullets which are longer than the Lee tc's.

[mdi]

I am using the same Lee 124 gr TC COL 1.065" over 5.7 grains of Hogdon HS-6. I have also used it over 4.8 grains of WW-231 however it was a bit warmer than I liked so droped down to 4.4.

Federal SP primers are soft and I use them during load development and look for flatened primers then back off close to 10% and then go to whatever primers are available these days. Currently I am using CCI SR Magnum primers. I know some will say that with Magnum primers the powder charge should be reduced even more and I am not trying to advise anyone on how to reload just stating what has worked for me.

SA XD 9MM Sub Compact.

How did you arrive at that OAL?

[canthit]

Don't know if this will help but I have a 9mm 1911 with a KKM barrel and the .357 cast bullet will not chamber most of the time. I have tried aol from 1.065 to 1.250 and still would not chamber and would get stuck (very hard To get out). Switched to .356 sized bullets and no more problems. My chamber is very tight and I slugged the barrel it was slightly under .355.

canthit

[jonp]

#2 looks close to right. #3 is way to long for any 9m chamber. It's not COL it's how much grove diameter bullet is ahead of the case mouth.
Remove your barrel then use it as a gage to drop loaded rounds into. Your bullet shoulder will bump the rifling. If the round stops before going flush or past the barrel hood it's to long. Simple.
After having many troubles getting Kahr to feed that is exactly what I do. When setting up the dies for new boolits I bring the pistol to the bench and remove the barrel.

[Cherokee]

I shoot thousands of the Lee 356120TC (conventional lube) in my 9's, all sized .356. I tried .357 once and had case problems similar to yours. I use an OAL of 1.055 for that.

[Case Stuffer]

How did you arrive at that OAL?

It passes the firearm and also cartridge checker plunk test . If loaded out further and there the lengths vary a little on the plus side some of the boolits end up being engraved by the rifling.

Have a look at OP where he has lis loaded to 1.075 ,mine are 1.065 and another post shows 1.100. As someone else posted no all 9mm firearms are the same. As long as the pass the plunk test in a loaded round tester they should atleast chamber in all nines.

Years ago I use to seat 135gr. SWC with about .060 out past the case mouth for my Browning Hi Power but I had free bored it to take these rounds. Years ago I traded off the Hi Power and still had a couple thousand rounds for it. Guess what they would not chamber in my new SA XD Sub Compact. I do not really care to get in the situation again.

Added : As a side note I load six different boolits for my nine. Three of these I cast and three are commericals I have tried. All six have different amounts of case displacement , that is when loded to a working OAL there is a difference in how deep they are seated in the case. They are all safe pressure wise when seated over 5.7 grains of Hogdon HS-6 and four are OK over 6.0 grains but a couple are on the very warm side over 6.0. The HS-6 jug list a max. of 6.8 but that is not a cast bullet and logic tells me that it was a shallow in the case bullet.

I have a habit of takening a case and drilling out the primer hole with a #17 drill bit. This lets me take the depth measuring part of calaibers and measuring from the base of the case to the base of the boolit. This makes it simple to compare the differences in case capacity displaced by lead.

[joes29729]

@ Bullwolf, I am just starting to load the Lyman 356402 tc for a glock 26. My first test I shot 30 rounds oal 1.150 and had one not cycle. My second test fire 40 rounds oal 1.145 had two rounds catch but appeared less severe. Any suggestions or info would be appreciated. Oh using 5.0 grains unique and my bullets are averaging 126 grains out of the mold.

[freebullet]

Try this just for fun before you give up. Lock yer slide back insert a loose boolit, make sure it is in straight. You should be able to see the space around where the case would normally go. Take a toothpick and break it to just wedge the boolit in place lightly. Now insert a rod or Dowell gently from the bore end, make sure it touches the nose of the boolit. Mark it at the end of the barrel. Remove the rod & boolit, close the slide & reinsert the rod mark it again at the bore end. Now measure the marks on the rod. Measure from the inside of the bottom mark to the outside of the top mark. That is a base line of how long your col should be with that boolit in your gun. Then make up dummy rounds starting there. This isn't super duper accurate , but gives you a good starting point. I have found that premium accuracy/feeding is generally found +/- 0.020" from the number you obtained. Lee 1r boolits tend to work about .020 under, 2r usually .20 over for me. Make sure when you eject yer dummy rnds they don't have mark from being crammed in the throat. Then I try to find load data for that length. I'm no expert, but this works for me. Hope it helps.

[fcvan]

When I first started loading for 9mm, I used the Lee 356-125 2R and 5 grains of Unique. I set my seat/crimp die to a factory round and it worked fine. When I bought the 356-120 TC mold I left the seat/crimp die alone and it works fine. BTW, both of my molds drop at .358-3585 ish and I size to .358 with the expander die adjusted so that the case does not further size to boolit.

My 125 2R weighs 126 and the 120 TC weighs 125 when cast with range scrap. Some folks like their 9mm boolits harder, I have been very happy with the softer alloy. If I want to push them a little harder I add a plain based gas check but I generally just leave them at 5 grains. When I load the 356-102 1R with a PB check (mine weigh 105 at .358 from scrap) I push them a little faster :) and I like it! I need to load some more and see how those do from the Marlin Camp Carbine!

note on seating the 102 1R: I do have to adjust those to where the case mouth just covers the lube groove.

[Bullwolf]

@ Bullwolf, I am just starting to load the Lyman 356402 tc for a glock 26. My first test I shot 30 rounds oal 1.150 and had one not cycle. My second test fire 40 rounds oal 1.145 had two rounds catch but appeared less severe. Any suggestions or info would be appreciated. Oh using 5.0 grains unique and my bullets are averaging 126 grains out of the mold.

Hi Joes29729.

Since you asked that @ Bullwolf, I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability, but I am not sure how much my information will help.

Unfortunately I don't own any Glock pistols, so I have no ideas for an OAL, or Over All Length that might feed reliably with the Lyman boolit. When I loaded commercially, many of the rental guns were early generation Glocks, and they would feed round nose, and HP jacketed stuff just fine using standard cartridge OAL's.

I originally set up the Lyman 356402 boolit for use in my Beretta 92. The same load had no problems feeding and cycling in an older Browning 9mm Hi-Power, or a Ruger P89.

Are you sizing the Lyman boolit, or shooting it as cast?

Are you using the factory barrel, or an aftermarket barrel?

I have heard that many aftermarket barrels are on the tight side of things, and may not easily chamber a fat .3855 boolit.

My boolits were sized using either a Lyman 450 lubrisizer with Orange Magic lube, or lately a Lee .358 push through sizer die, and Recluse's 45-45-10 TL with the 356402. I size all of my 9mm boolits, or I am prone to stoppages when a slightly oversize boolit (say .359) slips through my sorting process, and inevitably fails to chamber. I also gauge all of my ammo for the same reason, using either a 9mm Wilson case gauge, or if it's more applicable the barrel or cylinder of the gun I intend to use the ammo in.

If I was going to set this boolit up for use with a Glock, I would probably use the Glock's barrel for a plunk test, and play around with an OAL that will easily chamber, fit well in the magazine, and seemed like it wanted to feed. This would involve loading up a few dummy cartridges with different OAL's, and cycling them through the gun. Generally I have better luck feeding with a longer OAL than a shorter one, but each gun is definitely an individual.

I would also start at a lower charge, and work up slowly while looking for pressure signs, until I got to a point where the gun cycles reliably, even when held very loosely. Somewhere around there I get a ball park idea of what I want for a powder charge, and then I try shooting around that charge at paper (instead of off the back porch) looking for something link accuracy rather than reliability.

When I was working up the load for use in my Beretta 92 I had the wife intentionally limp wrist the gun a few times while working up the charge, before settling on 5.2 grains of (older Hercules) Unique. At the 5.2 grain loading, the slide would consistently cycle on the Beretta, even when using a weak hold.

From modern data that I have now (Lyman 49th, and 4th edition cast), as well as what others are using I feel like my load is on the higher end of the spectrum. It was still within a reasonable range according to the data I was using at the time. (RCBS Cast Bullet Manual #1) Most importantly though, it would function in my guns. My boolits also cast closer to 115 grains than 126 grains using my alloy, so I felt OK going a few tenths of a grain warmer, approaching the 115 grain loading data. I cast 9mm using a harder than typical alloy (Mono type, thinned with WW) because that's the alloy I have on hand, and I have a lot of it. That alloy will cast a large enough boolit from both of my moulds that I am able size it at .358 to fit my 9mm's. When I cast 9mm boolits from roofing lead and tin, my cast boolits are softer, as well as being too small.

I have not bothered to shoot the Lyman 356402 across the chronograph, but I have shot the Lee TL356-124-2R 9mm at 5.2 grains of Unique over the chronograph, and it isn't unreasonable. I have a Double Cavity (DC) Lyman mould, and a 6 Cavity Lee TL mould, so I favor the Lee mould for quantity, and consequently shoot many more of the Lee TL boolits, than the Lyman ones in 9mm.


Hope that helps some.


- Bullwolf

[MtGun44]

Are you taper crimping? Need to TC as a separate operation, using
chamber as gage.

This is a common problem when having chambering difficulty.

Bill

[Bullwolf]

I should have mentioned that I also prefer to seat my 9mm boolits in a separate step and then apply a taper crimp, rather than trying to perform both operations at the same time.

When I had only one set of 9mm dies, I would often use my 38/.357 boolit seat die in one hole of my turret press (along with the correctly shaped insert to match my boolit profile) to seat 9mm boolits with...

Then I'd lock down my empty 9mm TC die (with the boolit seating stem removed) into the next station to apply a taper crimp with in a separate step.

Once I had a few sets of dies, I started to just leave them all set up in the turret heads, for easier swapping between different calibers.

Another die swapping tip: Rather than making, or purchasing a custom expander spud, you can use the expander spud from a 38 Special/.357 die if you aren't getting quite enough case flare or bell from your 9mm expander. The expander spud for 38 S&W is even larger still, if needed. This can help keep you from squeezing a boolit down to a smaller diameter, when trying to stuff it in a case with minimal flare.


- Bullwolf

[joes29729]

Bullwolf---Yes thank you that was a lot of good info. I loaded two more test batches first I left at same OAL 1.145 and lowered the charge to 4.8 gr. again I had 2 out of 20 not cycle. Next batch had 4.8 gr with an OAL OF 1.118, that one had zero malfunction. Tomorrow I will load 2 batches at 1.118OAL and 4.5 and 4.2 grains. I'm using wheel weights and sizing to .356 with the lee sizer but pan lubed with a home recipe. So far just have the factory barrel and have observed zero leading. Accuracy improved a little with lower charge as well but could improve further.
Ps. I'm using the 4 cavity lyman mold and once it heats up production is pretty good and almost every bullet is spot on. Thanks for the info. I hope I haven't made the OAL too short. Is there something I should look for if I have?

[Bullwolf]

I hope I haven't made the OAL too short. Is there something I should look for if I have?

It doesn't sound like you have made the OAL too short. I like to think of OAL's as a general guide designed to work safely in a large variety of guns, more than a rule written in stone.

Just be aware that as you shorten your overall cartridge length you are taking up internal case capacity by seating your boolit deeper, and you are consequently raising pressures. Two loads with the exact same powder charge will not be the same when loaded to 2 different overall lengths. The boolit that's seated farther out will be milder than the one with a shorter OAL.

They say a picture is worth a 1000 words, so I'm going to re-post a picture here from another thread, even though it's more of a drastic example showing extreme pressure when deep seating wad cutters.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=105592&d=1403159206&thumb=1

The above picture graphically shows how with the same powder charge, pressure increases as you seat deeper and eat up internal case capacity.

As long as you are working up a starting load, and not just starting at the maximum charge, you can still end up with a safe load with a custom OAL. This is why you start low, and work up.

It will likely take less powder to get there using a shorter overall length. An OAL of 1.145 or 1.118 is still very reasonable at your powder charge, and is an expected part of working up a load for your gun.

This is really where a chronograph becomes invaluable to load development, rather trying to extrapolate pressures, or read primers. In my experience by the time you start flattening primers, you are already way past my personal comfort zone.

If you are seating deeply and experience a massive increase in velocity, (measured with the chronograph) expect an equal increase in pressure to accompany it. Without the chronograph you are flying somewhat blind.


- Bullwolf